Guild Wars 2

Teamkiller.4315:

McFribble.2349:

YourOwnFear.2743:

I think his point is if you are doing nothing but using everything you have to counter backstab then that doesn’t prove backstabs effectiveness or lack thereof.

Well, I bring up a new point. If a thieve is changes to be revealed on a failed backstab attempt, what is stopping people from doing everything in their power to counter backstab by avoiding it at all costs (like people SHOULD be doing now), rendering the Thief completely useless?

Just like stunbreakers render bull rush useless?

If you’ve ever fought a good warrior, you’ll know that he has more disables than you have snare/stunbreakers. And he’s going to wait for you to waste them all before he sets up on you.

So what does a thief do?

Anyways, I don’t think missing a backstab should apply revealed. Maybe take them out of stealth, but boost backstab damage in compensation.

And again, you are missing the point.

Backstab Thieves rely on backstabbing. Period. You take a thief out os stealth on a missed attack, you change the meta so that EVERYONE tries to avoid the backstab, rendering said build near useless.

It isn’t going to fix anything other than making fights against Thieves that much more laughably easy with little compensation in return.

Atherakhia.4086:

You know what would be a far better suggestion…. not allowing backstab to be blocked or evaded. Seems like a far more reasonable solution to this problem.

Can we please do the same for my Mesmer’s shatters (and fix AI?)
And do the same for Ranger pets (and fix AI?)
And do the same for Warrior burst skills?

… I don’t think this is a good idea seeing as it is the highest damage skill in the game that gives no visual indicator of when the attack is. Just a 3+ second window that it can happen in a game where dodge rolls are less than 1s and most block skills are consumed upon blocking one skill (and then you’re backstabbed anyways lol … so they’re a non-option already … except shield stance).

McFribble.2349:

YourOwnFear.2743:

I think his point is if you are doing nothing but using everything you have to counter backstab then that doesn’t prove backstabs effectiveness or lack thereof.

Well, I bring up a new point. If a thieve is changes to be revealed on a failed backstab attempt, what is stopping people from doing everything in their power to counter backstab by avoiding it at all costs (like people SHOULD be doing now), rendering the Thief completely useless?

What would stop the thief from using good play to set up backstab allowing it to get alittle buff like I mentioned before (to reward better play), instead of using it as their open, middle and endgame. The change I proposed only hurts bad players and if you think about it, you will force your target to use up his defenses early since everyone is used to, blow cds, mug, cnd , backstab, heart strike spam. Good play after the change will mean bigger rewards and the thief looking more skilled and less faceroll.

McFribble.2349:

Teamkiller.4315:

McFribble.2349:

YourOwnFear.2743:

I think his point is if you are doing nothing but using everything you have to counter backstab then that doesn’t prove backstabs effectiveness or lack thereof.

Well, I bring up a new point. If a thieve is changes to be revealed on a failed backstab attempt, what is stopping people from doing everything in their power to counter backstab by avoiding it at all costs (like people SHOULD be doing now), rendering the Thief completely useless?

Just like stunbreakers render bull rush useless?

If you’ve ever fought a good warrior, you’ll know that he has more disables than you have snare/stunbreakers. And he’s going to wait for you to waste them all before he sets up on you.

So what does a thief do?

Anyways, I don’t think missing a backstab should apply revealed. Maybe take them out of stealth, but boost backstab damage in compensation.

And again, you are missing the point.

Backstab Thieves rely on backstabbing. Period. You take a thief out os stealth on a missed attack, you change the meta so that EVERYONE tries to avoid the backstab, rendering said build near useless.

It isn’t going to fix anything other than making fights against Thieves that much more laughably easy with little compensation in return.

If you need some sort of compensation, great. Just stop asking for OP junk. I like the way the devs are going where they are trying to slow down combat a bit. It affects my Mesmer too (yes, we can obviously burst), but I like it anyways.

If backstab is all you think a dagger thief can do, you are severely limiting yourself in your gameplay and it’s no wonder you think thieves are worse than the higher tiers think they are.

Sebrent.3625:

A fight in GW2 is about winning. The winner is the one that spikes his opponent.

As far as evidence, excuse me, but please look at all the videos of thieves hitting backstab left and right with more than 50% success rate. Even more than 75% success rate. Now, when they face someone like Osicat, no, they aren’t landing much but he isn’t landing shatters much either. That’s how the high level fights go. Both players are missing most of their attacks because their opponent is countering them with good play.

This leads to the issue I keep bringing up … good play doesn’t counter the backstab. If I use a Mesmer block while you’re stealthed and you’re smart, you’ll backstab my block, dodge (while stille stealthed) the strike that results from it (unless I’m a condition build because then it’s not worth the dodge), and then backstab again unless I dodge.

Now, if I Mind Wrack and you block/dodge it, I don’t get to immediately Mind Wrack again … not even if I dodge first ;-)

Also, I’m not going to “take your challenge” simply because of the reason I stated before… you don’t test something involving people by using people with bias as the test subjects. That’d be like doing a taste test when you have one person in love with one of the chefs or getting paid if they pick a certain chef over the other. Test subjects should not have bias when testing something.

This is why the plethora of videos already on the subject already serve as better material than your “challenge”.

The problem with watching videos of some of these Back Stab Thieves are……

-These guys probably have several HUNDRED hours invested and therefor are generally high level players.

It sounds like to me that you want to nerf Thieves based off of the select few who have put LARGE amounts of time into these toons.

Having said that, Why dont we nerf (According to videos of)……

-BM Rangers for their CRAZY health regen, tanking multiple enemies.
-Ele for their constant cleansing and tanking multiple enemies
-Eng and their healing bombs running around bunkering points in pvp.
-Warriors just land blasting opponents in WvW
-Guards face tanking entire Zergs.

All this has been showcased in videos on you tube. Does that mean we should nerf them?…….No. Just learn to counter them and move along.

I can’t believe people are feeding this kitten idea. This is probably the dumbest idea ever suggested.

If thieves get punished for failing a skill then so should every other class.

So if thief gets revealed for missing bs warriors should get a 4s cool down on thier auto attack when they miss. All classes should.

Besides, the fact that thieves can spam bs until it lands in no way makes then over powered or gives them any unfair advantage.

While in stealth, our unique stealth skill becomes our auto attack.

Why are so many noobs making kitten threads like this?

McFribble.2349:

Teamkiller.4315:

McFribble.2349:

YourOwnFear.2743:

I think his point is if you are doing nothing but using everything you have to counter backstab then that doesn’t prove backstabs effectiveness or lack thereof.

Well, I bring up a new point. If a thieve is changes to be revealed on a failed backstab attempt, what is stopping people from doing everything in their power to counter backstab by avoiding it at all costs (like people SHOULD be doing now), rendering the Thief completely useless?

Just like stunbreakers render bull rush useless?

If you’ve ever fought a good warrior, you’ll know that he has more disables than you have snare/stunbreakers. And he’s going to wait for you to waste them all before he sets up on you.

So what does a thief do?

Anyways, I don’t think missing a backstab should apply revealed. Maybe take them out of stealth, but boost backstab damage in compensation.

And again, you are missing the point.

Backstab Thieves rely on backstabbing. Period. You take a thief out os stealth on a missed attack, you change the meta so that EVERYONE tries to avoid the backstab, rendering said build near useless.

It isn’t going to fix anything other than making fights against Thieves that much more laughably easy with little compensation in return.

So that would only make BACKSTAB thieves useless, oh why didn’t you say so? I didn’t realize every thief ran Dagger MH backstab builds 100% of the time you know.

Anyways I’ve been more moderate around this issue because I don’t have a stance on it but your opinions are ridiculous. You think this nerf to one sneak attack on one weapon set that is used in one specific manner will render an ENTIRE CLASS useless. The only thing I can say is L2P, I haven’t backstabbed a single time in the last 20 hours I’ve been on thief.

Besides, it’s not as easy as you think to avoid a backstab from a 4s stealthed thief. Evades only last .75 seconds and recharge every 10 seconds. D/P thief can regen enough initiative to backstab again every 7 or so seconds. C&D thieves can do it in 5 if they land their C&D.

@mcfribble i know the woes. anyway lets take guardian….the slowest…clunkiest class. ready? ok : ways to counter stealth/bs:

hammer skill 3
staff skill 5
mace skill 5
mace skill 3
GS skill 5
scepter skill 3 (as going into invis)
focus skill 5
shield skill 5
shelter (heal skill 2 seconds))
sanctuary
retreat
bane signet (as going into stealth)
tome of courage
tome of wrath
renewed focus
f3
2 dodges per 10 secs (guessing)

about 5-6 traits give aegis or renew aegis/block/blind too

they have lots of ways to to avoid bs if played correctly they are doing dmg while defensive. just one class. plus they all cooldown and use them again. a thief can only backstabe every 10 seconds roughly considering everything so it shouldnt be too hard.

swinsk.6410:

I can’t believe people are feeding this kitten idea. This is probably the dumbest idea ever suggested.

If thieves get punished for failing a skill then so should every other class.

So if thief gets revealed for missing bs warriors should get a 4s cool down on thier auto attack when they miss. All classes should.

Besides, the fact that thieves can spam bs until it lands in no way makes then over powered or gives them any unfair advantage.

While in stealth, our unique stealth skill becomes our auto attack.

Why are so many noobs making kitten threads like this?

I would like to point out that the change I put out was to reveal if outplayed with an active block, evade or blind. Just like every other class. When a warrior uses 100 blades on a target that dodges does it go on cd? When a ranger uses a big attack while blinded does it not go on cd? We are talking about a big damage attack with no cd than has no punishment when used in a bad play.

I dont like using class comparisons but you did mention punishing other classes so I pointed out they are already punished.

Edit: would also like like to point out that I also said there should be a buff to the skill to reward better playing.

Sebrent.3625:

Atherakhia.4086:

You know what would be a far better suggestion…. not allowing backstab to be blocked or evaded. Seems like a far more reasonable solution to this problem.

Can we please do the same for my Mesmer’s shatters (and fix AI?)
And do the same for Ranger pets (and fix AI?)
And do the same for Warrior burst skills?

… I don’t think this is a good idea seeing as it is the highest damage skill in the game that gives no visual indicator of when the attack is. Just a 3+ second window that it can happen in a game where dodge rolls are less than 1s and most block skills are consumed upon blocking one skill (and then you’re backstabbed anyways lol … so they’re a non-option already … except shield stance).

BS is not the highest damage skill in the game, play more classes and learn my friend.

Let me be clear because it’s obvious many of you aren’t reading.

I only think a thief should be revealed when:

• Their backstab hits, but is countered by a block, dodge, etc.

I do not think a thief should be revealed when:

• Their backstab (or any attack) is out of range when they use it
• They dodge
• They use a non-attack skill

What does this guarantee?

• A thief that doesn’t pay attention to their foe’s dodging, blocking, etc. will be punished just like anyone else that tries to attack when their foe is doing the same
• A thief will only be guaranteed a backstab if their opponent isn’t wise enough to use a counter

But hey, here’s an idea …

When a thief’s backstab is counted by being blocked, dodged, etc., backstab goes on cooldown until the thief leaves stealth.

This could be easy to implement:

• Backstab, Tactical Strike, etc. require 1 “charge” and being in stealth to use.
• You can not have more than 1 “charge”
• You gain 1 charge any time you transition from “not stealthed” to “stealthed”
• You only lose the charge if you use backstab, tactical strike, etc. and it is countered by a block, dodge, etc.
• Having your attack countered does not remove you from stealth and does not give you the revealed debuff

PearlGore.7419:

Sebrent.3625:

Atherakhia.4086:

You know what would be a far better suggestion…. not allowing backstab to be blocked or evaded. Seems like a far more reasonable solution to this problem.

Can we please do the same for my Mesmer’s shatters (and fix AI?)
And do the same for Ranger pets (and fix AI?)
And do the same for Warrior burst skills?

… I don’t think this is a good idea seeing as it is the highest damage skill in the game that gives no visual indicator of when the attack is. Just a 3+ second window that it can happen in a game where dodge rolls are less than 1s and most block skills are consumed upon blocking one skill (and then you’re backstabbed anyways lol … so they’re a non-option already … except shield stance).

BS is not the highest damage skill in the game, play more classes and learn my friend.

Did you notice that I used bold on “with no visual indicator”. Please find me a skill that does more damage and has no visual indicator.

Teamkiller.4315:

McFribble.2349:

Teamkiller.4315:

McFribble.2349:

YourOwnFear.2743:

I think his point is if you are doing nothing but using everything you have to counter backstab then that doesn’t prove backstabs effectiveness or lack thereof.

Well, I bring up a new point. If a thieve is changes to be revealed on a failed backstab attempt, what is stopping people from doing everything in their power to counter backstab by avoiding it at all costs (like people SHOULD be doing now), rendering the Thief completely useless?

Just like stunbreakers render bull rush useless?

If you’ve ever fought a good warrior, you’ll know that he has more disables than you have snare/stunbreakers. And he’s going to wait for you to waste them all before he sets up on you.

So what does a thief do?

Anyways, I don’t think missing a backstab should apply revealed. Maybe take them out of stealth, but boost backstab damage in compensation.

And again, you are missing the point.

Backstab Thieves rely on backstabbing. Period. You take a thief out os stealth on a missed attack, you change the meta so that EVERYONE tries to avoid the backstab, rendering said build near useless.

It isn’t going to fix anything other than making fights against Thieves that much more laughably easy with little compensation in return.

So that would only make BACKSTAB thieves useless, oh why didn’t you say so? I didn’t realize every thief ran Dagger MH backstab builds 100% of the time you know.

Anyways I’ve been more moderate around this issue because I don’t have a stance on it but your opinions are ridiculous. You think this nerf to one sneak attack on one weapon set that is used in one specific manner will render an ENTIRE CLASS useless. The only thing I can say is L2P, I haven’t backstabbed a single time in the last 20 hours I’ve been on thief.

Besides, it’s not as easy as you think to avoid a backstab from a 4s stealthed thief. Evades only last .75 seconds and recharge every 10 seconds. D/P thief can regen enough initiative to backstab again every 7 or so seconds. C&D thieves can do it in 5 if they land their C&D.

So you’re suggesting a nerf with no return? Of course it would render backstab thieves useless, seeing as how they’re build is based completely around stealth attacks. Yes, there are thieves who DON’T use daggers, but those Thieves also don’t rely on stealth as a mechanic nearly as much. This nerf to Thieves is a direct attack on burst specs, which basically means Dagger MH, seeing as how ranged attacks never actually “miss” their locked-on target. No idea why you are so shocked about this, as it was obviously the only build that CAN be effected by it.

Travlane.5948:

@mcfribble i know the woes. anyway lets take guardian….the slowest…clunkiest class. ready? ok : ways to counter stealth/bs:

You mean the class with one of the best counters to thief??!?

hammer skill 3 — Are you kidding me? This will miss
staff skill 5 — thief just avoids it
mace skill 5 — Mace doesn’t even have a 5 skill, it’s a ONE HANDED WEAPON
mace skill 3 — Will block ONE BS, second BS on the way
shield skill 5 — Knockback for like 1 second. Thief catches up and BS’s. The only thing this counters is shadow refuge, but it does counter shadow refuge well.
shelter (heal skill 2 seconds)) — and thieves get 3-4s of stealth
sanctuary — 120 second cooldown
retreat — 60 second cooldown
bane signet (as going into stealth) — .75s cast time
tome of courage — 180s CD elite. Leave you vulnerable while using it
tome of wrath — 180 CD elite. Leave you vulnerable while using it
renewed focus — 90 CD Elite.
f3 — ONE block, thief BS’s again.
2 dodges per 10 secs (guessing). Actually, this is the only part where you underestimated the guardian. We can have near to actually permanent vigor due to vigor on crit minor trait that nearly everyone gets.

about 5-6 traits give aegis or renew aegis/block/blind too

You’re ridiculous. 2 traits give aegis and one is under comparatively rare circumstances, no traits give blinds unless you use a weapon skill or specific skills associated with it. Aegis and blinds only stop ONE backstab.

Sebrent.3625:

Let me be clear because it’s obvious many of you aren’t reading.

I only think a thief should be revealed when:

• Their backstab hits, but is countered by a block, dodge, etc.

I do not think a thief should be revealed when:

• Their backstab (or any attack) is out of range when they use it
• They dodge
• They use a non-attack skill

What does this guarantee?

• A thief that doesn’t pay attention to their foe’s dodging, blocking, etc. will be punished just like anyone else that tries to attack when their foe is doing the same
• A thief will only be guaranteed a backstab if their opponent isn’t wise enough to use a counter

---

But hey, here’s an idea …

When a thief’s backstab is counted by being blocked, dodged, etc., backstab goes on cooldown until the thief leaves stealth.

This could be easy to implement:

• Backstab, Tactical Strike, etc. require 1 “charge” and being in stealth to use.
• You can not have more than 1 “charge”
• You gain 1 charge any time you transition from “not stealthed” to “stealthed”
• You only lose the charge if you use backstab, tactical strike, etc. and it is countered by a block, dodge, etc.
• Having your attack countered does not remove you from stealth and does not give you the revealed debuff

If you guys dont like my idea this is another good one. Allows you time to reposition or increase your time in stealth to get a good position to try again. At the same time you just removed 1 method for you target to defend themselves.

Though my idea comes with a buff.

Sebrent.3625:

PearlGore.7419:

Sebrent.3625:

Atherakhia.4086:

You know what would be a far better suggestion…. not allowing backstab to be blocked or evaded. Seems like a far more reasonable solution to this problem.

Can we please do the same for my Mesmer’s shatters (and fix AI?)
And do the same for Ranger pets (and fix AI?)
And do the same for Warrior burst skills?

… I don’t think this is a good idea seeing as it is the highest damage skill in the game that gives no visual indicator of when the attack is. Just a 3+ second window that it can happen in a game where dodge rolls are less than 1s and most block skills are consumed upon blocking one skill (and then you’re backstabbed anyways lol … so they’re a non-option already … except shield stance).

BS is not the highest damage skill in the game, play more classes and learn my friend.

Did you notice that I used bold on “with no visual indicator”. Please find me a skill that does more damage and has no visual indicator.

When someone uses CnD you know you have 3-4 seconds to avoid being hit by a BS, easily done by anyone.

McFribble.2349:

Teamkiller.4315:

McFribble.2349:

Teamkiller.4315:

McFribble.2349:

YourOwnFear.2743:

I think his point is if you are doing nothing but using everything you have to counter backstab then that doesn’t prove backstabs effectiveness or lack thereof.

Well, I bring up a new point. If a thieve is changes to be revealed on a failed backstab attempt, what is stopping people from doing everything in their power to counter backstab by avoiding it at all costs (like people SHOULD be doing now), rendering the Thief completely useless?

Just like stunbreakers render bull rush useless?

If you’ve ever fought a good warrior, you’ll know that he has more disables than you have snare/stunbreakers. And he’s going to wait for you to waste them all before he sets up on you.

So what does a thief do?

Anyways, I don’t think missing a backstab should apply revealed. Maybe take them out of stealth, but boost backstab damage in compensation.

And again, you are missing the point.

Backstab Thieves rely on backstabbing. Period. You take a thief out os stealth on a missed attack, you change the meta so that EVERYONE tries to avoid the backstab, rendering said build near useless.

It isn’t going to fix anything other than making fights against Thieves that much more laughably easy with little compensation in return.

So that would only make BACKSTAB thieves useless, oh why didn’t you say so? I didn’t realize every thief ran Dagger MH backstab builds 100% of the time you know.

Anyways I’ve been more moderate around this issue because I don’t have a stance on it but your opinions are ridiculous. You think this nerf to one sneak attack on one weapon set that is used in one specific manner will render an ENTIRE CLASS useless. The only thing I can say is L2P, I haven’t backstabbed a single time in the last 20 hours I’ve been on thief.

Besides, it’s not as easy as you think to avoid a backstab from a 4s stealthed thief. Evades only last .75 seconds and recharge every 10 seconds. D/P thief can regen enough initiative to backstab again every 7 or so seconds. C&D thieves can do it in 5 if they land their C&D.

So you’re suggesting a nerf with no return? Of course it would render backstab thieves useless, seeing as how they’re build is based completely around stealth attacks. Yes, there are thieves who DON’T use daggers, but those Thieves also don’t rely on stealth as a mechanic nearly as much. This nerf to Thieves is a direct attack on burst specs, which basically means Dagger MH, seeing as how ranged attacks never actually “miss” their locked-on target. No idea why you are so shocked about this, as it was obviously the only build that CAN be effected by it.

Did I not say “boost backstab damage to compensate” or did you not read that? I’m not even advocating this change happen, frankly I don’t care if it does or not (I care that you are wrong about other things). I’m saying if it does happen thieves should get some compensation for it.

Also, I’m not shocked. You said the thief class will be useless after such a nerf, which I disagree with, because thieves don’t run dagger MH for backstabbing 100% of the time, obviously.

if u dodge a bs it should cause reveal? why? its not different thatn swingin bs in the air. block? its block so you still shouldnt know where the thief is as he didnt touch you and gave no physical indication of where he is. what about invulerabilty….the word invulnerable means you feel nothing or have no effect upon….if thats the case you still wouldnt know where a thief is. stealth is only removed when you do physical dmg bc it shows the enemy where you are…if ur dodge and thief misses he didnt reveal his location….“may have heard a woosh” :P u know how caltrops does dmg but doesnt remove invis? its bc the caltrops deal dmg from the thief but the thief isnt near them so it wont reveal his location. i think this is what anet was aiming for.

Sebrent.3625:

Let me be clear because it’s obvious many of you aren’t reading.

I only think a thief should be revealed when:

• Their backstab hits, but is countered by a block, dodge, etc.

I do not think a thief should be revealed when:

• Their backstab (or any attack) is out of range when they use it
• They dodge
• They use a non-attack skill

What does this guarantee?

• A thief that doesn’t pay attention to their foe’s dodging, blocking, etc. will be punished just like anyone else that tries to attack when their foe is doing the same
• A thief will only be guaranteed a backstab if their opponent isn’t wise enough to use a counter

---

But hey, here’s an idea …

When a thief’s backstab is counted by being blocked, dodged, etc., backstab goes on cooldown until the thief leaves stealth.

This could be easy to implement:

• Backstab, Tactical Strike, etc. require 1 “charge” and being in stealth to use.
• You can not have more than 1 “charge”
• You gain 1 charge any time you transition from “not stealthed” to “stealthed”
• You only lose the charge if you use backstab, tactical strike, etc. and it is countered by a block, dodge, etc.
• Having your attack countered does not remove you from stealth and does not give you the revealed debuff

The problem it seems is your basing all this off of videos you’ve watched (as stated in previous post). There are players in every profession that make their toons look OP. Asking for nerfs is not the right way to go about it. Ask for buffs or again just learn to counter and move along.

I have seen videos of a balanced Warrior just kitten a BS Thief even after the initial burst.

Teamkiller.4315:

McFribble.2349:

Teamkiller.4315:

McFribble.2349:

Teamkiller.4315:

McFribble.2349:

YourOwnFear.2743:

I think his point is if you are doing nothing but using everything you have to counter backstab then that doesn’t prove backstabs effectiveness or lack thereof.

Well, I bring up a new point. If a thieve is changes to be revealed on a failed backstab attempt, what is stopping people from doing everything in their power to counter backstab by avoiding it at all costs (like people SHOULD be doing now), rendering the Thief completely useless?

Just like stunbreakers render bull rush useless?

If you’ve ever fought a good warrior, you’ll know that he has more disables than you have snare/stunbreakers. And he’s going to wait for you to waste them all before he sets up on you.

So what does a thief do?

Anyways, I don’t think missing a backstab should apply revealed. Maybe take them out of stealth, but boost backstab damage in compensation.

And again, you are missing the point.

Backstab Thieves rely on backstabbing. Period. You take a thief out os stealth on a missed attack, you change the meta so that EVERYONE tries to avoid the backstab, rendering said build near useless.

It isn’t going to fix anything other than making fights against Thieves that much more laughably easy with little compensation in return.

So that would only make BACKSTAB thieves useless, oh why didn’t you say so? I didn’t realize every thief ran Dagger MH backstab builds 100% of the time you know.

Anyways I’ve been more moderate around this issue because I don’t have a stance on it but your opinions are ridiculous. You think this nerf to one sneak attack on one weapon set that is used in one specific manner will render an ENTIRE CLASS useless. The only thing I can say is L2P, I haven’t backstabbed a single time in the last 20 hours I’ve been on thief.

Besides, it’s not as easy as you think to avoid a backstab from a 4s stealthed thief. Evades only last .75 seconds and recharge every 10 seconds. D/P thief can regen enough initiative to backstab again every 7 or so seconds. C&D thieves can do it in 5 if they land their C&D.

So you’re suggesting a nerf with no return? Of course it would render backstab thieves useless, seeing as how they’re build is based completely around stealth attacks. Yes, there are thieves who DON’T use daggers, but those Thieves also don’t rely on stealth as a mechanic nearly as much. This nerf to Thieves is a direct attack on burst specs, which basically means Dagger MH, seeing as how ranged attacks never actually “miss” their locked-on target. No idea why you are so shocked about this, as it was obviously the only build that CAN be effected by it.

Did I not say “boost backstab damage to compensate” or did you not read that?

Also, I’m not shocked. You said the thief class will be useless after such a nerf, which I disagree with, because thieves don’t run dagger MH for backstabbing 100% of the time, obviously.

So what you are suggesting is actually an OP buff that will only target thieves for more QQnerfs.

Stealth is fine as is.
Backstab is fine as is.
Thief may not be fine as is, but it sure a hell doesn’t need a bunch of WvW whiners who have never touched the class before try and make (de)constructive suggestions to help THEMSELVES get an easy win in fights.

GW2 already has one of the worst stealth mechanics I have ever witness in an MMO. The difference between GW2 and other MMOs is that despite having more powerful stealth mechanics, players in other MMOs can actually learn to adapt to a classes mechanic and fight against it. Clearly an unheard of concept around these parts.

Thief is one of my many characters and the changes I proposed helps me as a thief. First It makes my pve thief more viable after the damage was taken out of mug. It also increases my pvp damage when I pay attention to what I am actually doing instead of just repeatedly trying to force my combo. Lastly it leaves every class with no excuses when they get outplayed (personal plus for me).

We have weaker stealth in GW2, there were other games with perma stealth until you attack.

People beat those Stealth classes somehow.

Sebrent.3625:

Let me be clear because it’s obvious many of you aren’t reading.

I only think a thief should be revealed when:

• Their backstab hits, but is countered by a block, dodge, etc.

I do not think a thief should be revealed when:

• Their backstab (or any attack) is out of range when they use it
• They dodge
• They use a non-attack skill

What does this guarantee?

• A thief that doesn’t pay attention to their foe’s dodging, blocking, etc. will be punished just like anyone else that tries to attack when their foe is doing the same
• A thief will only be guaranteed a backstab if their opponent isn’t wise enough to use a counter

---

But hey, here’s an idea …

When a thief’s backstab is counted by being blocked, dodged, etc., backstab goes on cooldown until the thief leaves stealth.

This could be easy to implement:

• Backstab, Tactical Strike, etc. require 1 “charge” and being in stealth to use.
• You can not have more than 1 “charge”
• You gain 1 charge any time you transition from “not stealthed” to “stealthed”
• You only lose the charge if you use backstab, tactical strike, etc. and it is countered by a block, dodge, etc.
• Having your attack countered does not remove you from stealth and does not give you the revealed debuff

Also, everything your saying here goes against the title of the thread. You imply MISSING. Not blocking then revealed.

Shadowskill.9852:

Sebrent.3625:

Let me be clear because it’s obvious many of you aren’t reading.

I only think a thief should be revealed when:

• Their backstab hits, but is countered by a block, dodge, etc.

I do not think a thief should be revealed when:

• Their backstab (or any attack) is out of range when they use it
• They dodge
• They use a non-attack skill

What does this guarantee?

• A thief that doesn’t pay attention to their foe’s dodging, blocking, etc. will be punished just like anyone else that tries to attack when their foe is doing the same
• A thief will only be guaranteed a backstab if their opponent isn’t wise enough to use a counter

---

But hey, here’s an idea …

When a thief’s backstab is counted by being blocked, dodged, etc., backstab goes on cooldown until the thief leaves stealth.

This could be easy to implement:

• Backstab, Tactical Strike, etc. require 1 “charge” and being in stealth to use.
• You can not have more than 1 “charge”
• You gain 1 charge any time you transition from “not stealthed” to “stealthed”
• You only lose the charge if you use backstab, tactical strike, etc. and it is countered by a block, dodge, etc.
• Having your attack countered does not remove you from stealth and does not give you the revealed debuff

Also, everything your saying here goes against the title of the thread. You imply MISSING. Not blocking then revealed.

You should read more than the title because it has evolved since the thread started.

PearlGore.7419:

Sebrent.3625:

PearlGore.7419:

Sebrent.3625:

Atherakhia.4086:

You know what would be a far better suggestion…. not allowing backstab to be blocked or evaded. Seems like a far more reasonable solution to this problem.

Can we please do the same for my Mesmer’s shatters (and fix AI?)
And do the same for Ranger pets (and fix AI?)
And do the same for Warrior burst skills?

… I don’t think this is a good idea seeing as it is the highest damage skill in the game that gives no visual indicator of when the attack is. Just a 3+ second window that it can happen in a game where dodge rolls are less than 1s and most block skills are consumed upon blocking one skill (and then you’re backstabbed anyways lol … so they’re a non-option already … except shield stance).

BS is not the highest damage skill in the game, play more classes and learn my friend.

Did you notice that I used bold on “with no visual indicator”. Please find me a skill that does more damage and has no visual indicator.

When someone uses CnD you know you have 3-4 seconds to avoid being hit by a BS, easily done by anyone.

I’m well aware. Let’s look at my options on my Mesmer and my Ranger given two common builds:

Mesmer 0/20/20/0/30 … we’ll use this since it is a common setup pioneered by Osicat.
It uses Sword+Sword / Staff. The ways it has to avoid a backstab are:

• Dodge Roll (0.75s)
• Blurred Frenzy (2s)
• OH Sword Block (2s)
• Distortion (1s to 4s depending on # of illusions alive)

One of those covers the entire 3+ sec stealth. Most thieves who rely on stealth have 4+ sec stealth too. So now you have to use multiple counters to cover the entire time or guess when the attack will happen. This involves assuming they won’t hit for the first 2 seconds than using Blurred Frenzy for the last 2 (block currently gets undone by a the thief and they still backstab you). Distortion is great, except it’s on a 60s cooldown (actually 46.25 in this build). Do you know how many times a Thief can stealth and backstab in that time? Plenty. It also consumes illusions which forces more Mesmer cooldowns to be used.

We could also discuss Chaos Armor giving protection, but you’re still eating the hit.

Now for the Common Trap Ranger 0/30/30/5/5 with shortbow and sword + dagger. Pioneered by Sol Karlesi (I think).

• Dodge Roll (0.75s)
• Hornet Sting (0.5s)
• Serpent’s Strike (0.75s)
• Stalker’s Strike (1.25s)
• Quick Shot (0.75s)

Lol. The one reason this build actually counters a thief is because most of you thieves haven’t figured out how to handle a Ranger standing on top of their traps. As far as not getting nailed by the attacks, you’d have to add these up to cover the 4 second duration of stealth thief … 0.75+0.5+0.75+1.25+0.75 = 4.0 … or you can always guess when it will come to try to shave off some time.

Honestly, when I look at the numbers like this, I’m sort of baffled that so many of you are so easy to beat … though it explains more why Xeviel is a nightmare to fight.

Or you could you know, move.

I made an edit because I didn’t think you actually paid attention to anything I wrote previously, and I was right. Let me make it clear once again:

I don’t give two kittens about the change. If it happens, it happens. If it doesn’t, it doesn’t. What I said, was if it DOES happen, boost backstab damage to compensate.

Anyways, I don’t think missing a backstab should apply revealed. Maybe take them out of stealth, but boost backstab damage in compensation.

This is my EXACT quote.

Now, what my issue with you is, you think that this change will make all thieves useless, which is simply untrue.

As for beating thieves, stop with the ad hominem attacks. I have no trouble beating most thieves. Of course the good ones will defeat me, but that’s the price you pay for fighting good opponents. Something else I should mention is I rarely 1v1 because my spec is not for 1v1’s. It is optimized around 20vX and can perform adequately in 5vX situation. That having been said, I have beaten exceedingly to mildly incompetent thieves with my support build in 1v1 situations. So no, I’m not a QQ whiner wvw’er, I have 20k kills and I’m actually happy with how the classes are at the moment.

PearlGore.7419:

Or you could you know, move.

Where? You don’t know where the thief is and they are faster than most classes … especially if they have +50% movespeed when stealthed.

I pity poor necros and other classes who don’t even have a method of invulnerability, block, or any of the other plethora of active defenses my mesmer and ranger have.

YourOwnFear.2743:

Shadowskill.9852:

Sebrent.3625:

Let me be clear because it’s obvious many of you aren’t reading.

I only think a thief should be revealed when:

• Their backstab hits, but is countered by a block, dodge, etc.

I do not think a thief should be revealed when:

• Their backstab (or any attack) is out of range when they use it
• They dodge
• They use a non-attack skill

What does this guarantee?

• A thief that doesn’t pay attention to their foe’s dodging, blocking, etc. will be punished just like anyone else that tries to attack when their foe is doing the same
• A thief will only be guaranteed a backstab if their opponent isn’t wise enough to use a counter

---

But hey, here’s an idea …

When a thief’s backstab is counted by being blocked, dodged, etc., backstab goes on cooldown until the thief leaves stealth.

This could be easy to implement:

• Backstab, Tactical Strike, etc. require 1 “charge” and being in stealth to use.
• You can not have more than 1 “charge”
• You gain 1 charge any time you transition from “not stealthed” to “stealthed”
• You only lose the charge if you use backstab, tactical strike, etc. and it is countered by a block, dodge, etc.
• Having your attack countered does not remove you from stealth and does not give you the revealed debuff

Also, everything your saying here goes against the title of the thread. You imply MISSING. Not blocking then revealed.

You should read more than the title because it has evolved since the thread started.

I know that….but the title still remains

Sebrent.3625:

PearlGore.7419:

Or you could you know, move.

Where? You don’t know where the thief is and they are faster than most classes … especially if they have +50% movespeed when stealthed.

I pity poor necros and other classes who don’t even have a method of invulnerability, block, or any of the other plethora of active defenses my mesmer and ranger have.

We have 33% move speed when stealthed, the trait is bugged.

PearlGore.7419:

Sebrent.3625:

PearlGore.7419:

Or you could you know, move.

Where? You don’t know where the thief is and they are faster than most classes … especially if they have +50% movespeed when stealthed.

I pity poor necros and other classes who don’t even have a method of invulnerability, block, or any of the other plethora of active defenses my mesmer and ranger have.

We have 33% move speed when stealthed, the trait is bugged.

Indeed, This is a well known bug.

It is silly how everyone is missing how my proposal is a buff. Everyone cried after the mug nerf. My idea helps get the damage back. The cost of the damage being returned is that now you have to pay attention to where you’re standing and what buffs your target has up. If you are in a blind field do you spam 1 anyway? If you see an engi with a big gear in front of his face do you just spam 1? I know I don’t do this dumb kitten so I would have no problem with the change. In fact I would love it. I get more damage and I continue to play absolutely the same way I do now when I have a dagger in my main hand….

PearlGore.7419:

Sebrent.3625:

PearlGore.7419:

Or you could you know, move.

Where? You don’t know where the thief is and they are faster than most classes … especially if they have +50% movespeed when stealthed.

I pity poor necros and other classes who don’t even have a method of invulnerability, block, or any of the other plethora of active defenses my mesmer and ranger have.

We have 33% move speed when stealthed, the trait is bugged.

I know, but if I said that people would gripe the other way. Every thief knows “the +50% stealth speed trait” (i.e. Fleet of Shadow).

Is having max movement (swiftness) supposed to be bad? Many classes don’t have that speed. If they do, they sacrificed something else to get it. Often a weapon that would block or something similar.

Sebrent.3625:

PearlGore.7419:

Or you could you know, move.

Where? You don’t know where the thief is and they are faster than most classes … especially if they have +50% movespeed when stealthed.

I pity poor necros and other classes who don’t even have a method of invulnerability, block, or any of the other plethora of active defenses my mesmer and ranger have.

Necro’s get an entire 2nd health bar. You are not 1-2 shotting them with BS.

Sebrent.3625:

PearlGore.7419:

Sebrent.3625:

PearlGore.7419:

Or you could you know, move.

Where? You don’t know where the thief is and they are faster than most classes … especially if they have +50% movespeed when stealthed.

I pity poor necros and other classes who don’t even have a method of invulnerability, block, or any of the other plethora of active defenses my mesmer and ranger have.

We have 33% move speed when stealthed, the trait is bugged.

I know, but if I said that people would gripe the other way. Every thief knows “the +50% stealth speed trait” (i.e. Fleet of Shadow).

Is having max movement (swiftness) supposed to be bad? Many classes don’t have that speed. If they do, they sacrificed something else to get it. Often a weapon that would block or something similar.

So? Use it. And speed or no speed It’s very easy to move enough to avoid a BS, no one will deny this unless they are trolling.

Shadowskill.9852:

Sebrent.3625:

Let me be clear because it’s obvious many of you aren’t reading.

I only think a thief should be revealed when:

• Their backstab hits, but is countered by a block, dodge, etc.

I do not think a thief should be revealed when:

• Their backstab (or any attack) is out of range when they use it
• They dodge
• They use a non-attack skill

What does this guarantee?

• A thief that doesn’t pay attention to their foe’s dodging, blocking, etc. will be punished just like anyone else that tries to attack when their foe is doing the same
• A thief will only be guaranteed a backstab if their opponent isn’t wise enough to use a counter

---

But hey, here’s an idea …

When a thief’s backstab is counted by being blocked, dodged, etc., backstab goes on cooldown until the thief leaves stealth.

This could be easy to implement:

• Backstab, Tactical Strike, etc. require 1 “charge” and being in stealth to use.
• You can not have more than 1 “charge”
• You gain 1 charge any time you transition from “not stealthed” to “stealthed”
• You only lose the charge if you use backstab, tactical strike, etc. and it is countered by a block, dodge, etc.
• Having your attack countered does not remove you from stealth and does not give you the revealed debuff

The problem it seems is your basing all this off of videos you’ve watched (as stated in previous post). There are players in every profession that make their toons look OP. Asking for nerfs is not the right way to go about it. Ask for buffs or again just learn to counter and move along.

I have seen videos of a balanced Warrior just kitten a BS Thief even after the initial burst.

hate to say it but i 100% agree w/ you

Sebrent.3625:

• What currently happens when the Thief has their backstab blocked, dodged, etc? Oh yeah, the thief immediately backstabs again.

• What happens when a warrior’s burst skill is blocked, dodged, etc? It goes on cooldown

Afaik no #1 weapon skill has a cooldown. Backstab is a #1, without inititiave cost. Miss any other weapon skill and the initiative is wasted, like the cooldown timer starting on other weaponskills.

Strange comparison you make here.

Shadowskill.9852:

The problem it seems is your basing all this off of videos you’ve watched (as stated in previous post). There are players in every profession that make their toons look OP. Asking for nerfs is not the right way to go about it. Ask for buffs or again just learn to counter and move along.

I have seen videos of a balanced Warrior just kitten a BS Thief even after the initial burst.

• I don’t have trouble with most thieves. Only good ones as good players provide anyone trouble … even other good players.

• I’m not asking for a nerf. I’m asking for a bug fix.

• I’m basing this off the January 2013 patch where they focused on several skills being penalized for being dodged, blocked, etc.

• I’m also basing it off the idea that the current state rewards the thief for bad play (waste enemy’s cooldown but not unstealthed and can still backstab) and punishes the non-thief for good play (defensive skill is now on cooldown but they still get backstabbed unless they burn more).

Shadowskill.9852:

Also, everything your saying here goes against the title of the thread. You imply MISSING. Not blocking then revealed.

I didn’t create this topic. What it’s named is outside my control. I have stated in several of my posts that I don’t think you should be revealed for missing an attack due to out of range … only when countered.

Shadowskill.9852:

Sebrent.3625:

PearlGore.7419:

Or you could you know, move.

Where? You don’t know where the thief is and they are faster than most classes … especially if they have +50% movespeed when stealthed.

I pity poor necros and other classes who don’t even have a method of invulnerability, block, or any of the other plethora of active defenses my mesmer and ranger have.

Necro’s get an entire 2nd health bar. You are not 1-2 shotting them with BS.

• It isn’t an entire 2nd health bar, though it is nice
• I never claimed you are 1 or 2 shotting them

What’s your point? They simply get backstabbed more before they die. I think I’m actually informally quoting a post from the necro forum on this one, lol.

Sebrent.3625:

• Confusion was nerfed 50% … where’s my mesmer’s compensation?
• Quickness was nerfed 50% … where’s my mesmer’s compensation?
  • Where’s my Ranger’s compensation on their beastmastery trait?
• Ride the Lightning was nerfed with a larger cooldown … where is the compensation for elementalists?
• Mist Form was nerfed … where is the compensation for elementalists?

And the list goes on and on …

Weak argument. You’re also assuming this post is about people losing to thieves. It is not.

It is about

• Discrepancies in game mechanics
• Gameplay that rewards bad play and punishes good play

I won’t go that much into detail as my reply obviously was a trollpost, but let me tell you that: a BM regen build is probably one of the best, if not THE best duelling build there is atm. I play both classes and I haven’t lost a single duel to a thief. I may not be the worst player out there, but I find it a lot more forgiving than any thief build, so theres your ranger compensation.

Mesmer confusion has long enough been over the top, as it is a bad mechanic, why would you get 5k damage just from dodgerolling? Also it’s such an easy class to play, so stacking confusion doesn’t even require skill, the build still works, but then again its noobs complaining that they’re not OP anymore. Don’t make me elaborate on blurred frenzy, actually I find it ridiculous how many invul a mesmer can have.

Ele got their RTL nerfed to a state, where they actually need skill to escape from combat. This prevents bad play, because they actually have to think whether they use RTL to engage a fight. Brings some more rotation to their simple skillrotation —> No more Air 4 5 3 Fire 3 4 5 2 etc. Mist Form got nerfed, but so got Elixir S, which is more than fair, brings down Ele’ standing power to a acceptable level. Hell you dont even need a target for your attacks, especially Fire 3 regulary hits me hard although being miles away. Wanna trade your AOE attacks for your invul healing? I so wouldnt mind that as thief.

Last but not least… Every class had its quickness nerfed, because it was a stupid mechanic. I still remember facemelting People with my 16 arrows shortbow crit build, so what you’re on about. We rangers even got a stunbreak with it, although I’d agree that its still kitten.

Its kinda funny that your saying Thief rewards bad playing, and I partly agree on that as you don’t need to be a good thief to be somewhat successful, but in the same breath you’re mentioning D/D Ele’s, BM ranger and Phantasm Mesmers, which are just as easy to play and also reward bad playing, maybe even more than thieves.

Thief has been nerfed more than enough and the game finally hits a state, where I’d say that classes are all somewhat balanced, so theres no need for any more nerfs. Do you see me demanding nerfs for Guardians just because they got tons of blocks and mechanics to counter thieves? This nerf demanding has seriously reached a point of ridiculousness, cut it already.

I see common ground here, so let me try to approach it.

I won’t go that much into detail as my reply obviously was a trollpost, but let me tell you that: a BM regen build is probably one of the best, if not THE best duelling build there is atm. I play both classes and I haven’t lost a single duel to a thief. I may not be the worst player out there, but I find it a lot more forgiving than any thief build, so theres your ranger compensation.

If that is compensation, then the thieves complaining that a countered backstab removes stealth (or my other idea) are compensated by knowing there are other ways to play a thief.

laquito.5269:

Mesmer confusion has long enough been over the top, as it is a bad mechanic, why would you get 5k damage just from dodgerolling? Also it’s such an easy class to play, so stacking confusion doesn’t even require skill, the build still works, but then again its noobs complaining that they’re not OP anymore. Don’t make me elaborate on blurred frenzy, actually I find it ridiculous how many invul a mesmer can have.

I agree that confusion should have never hit anyone who performed a dodge roll, even if their dodge roll was traited to do something. I always thought that was really dumb even though I benefited from it.

I disagree that, outside of that, confusion has been over the top. It can be mitigated by:

• Avoiding the application of confusion
• Condition cleanse
• Not attacking

It also has a duration cap of 10s (for reference, a single bleed can last for over a minute … and those stack too).

Other conditions couldn’t be mitigated by not using skills.

I honestly think confusion was incorrectly nerfed and they should have targeted the nerf more at the Mesmer glamour build (the issue was not limiting glamours to 5 targets), as opposed to dumbing down combat by making players not care about confusion on them and just mindlessly auto-attacking.

The sheer number of invulns a Mesmer can have are distortion and blurred frenzy. Everything else is a blind or block which plenty have. That said, Mesmer hates things like shortbow ranger because it’s just constant plinking away at you which Mesmer’s defenses aren’t that great against … especially with confusion nerfed.

laquito.5269:

Ele got their RTL nerfed to a state, where they actually need skill to escape from combat. This prevents bad play, because they actually have to think whether they use RTL to engage a fight. Brings some more rotation to their simple skillrotation —> No more Air 4 5 3 Fire 3 4 5 2 etc. Mist Form got nerfed, but so got Elixir S, which is more than fair, brings down Ele’ standing power to a acceptable level. Hell you dont even need a target for your attacks, especially Fire 3 regulary hits me hard although being miles away. Wanna trade your AOE attacks for your invul healing? I so wouldnt mind that as thief.

I actually somewhat agree with the nerfs here. I was just pointing out that they got nerfed without any compensation. Pretty much just a, “Hey look, they got nerfed and not compensated. It happens.”

laquito.5269:

Last but not least… Every class had its quickness nerfed, because it was a stupid mechanic. I still remember facemelting People with my 16 arrows shortbow crit build, so what you’re on about. We rangers even got a stunbreak with it, although I’d agree that its still kitten.

Again, I agree with that change. I was happy to see it. I was just again pointing out that their were instances where compensation was not given.

laquito.5269:

Its kinda funny that your saying Thief rewards bad playing, and I partly agree on that as you don’t need to be a good thief to be somewhat successful, but in the same breath you’re mentioning D/D Ele’s, BM ranger and Phantasm Mesmers, which are just as easy to play and also reward bad playing, maybe even more than thieves.

Where are Phantasm Mesmers, D/D Ele’s, and BM Rangers being rewarded for bad play?

I’m currently unaware of any instance where one of their attacks is successfully countered by the foe but the result is the foe has a defense on cooldown and the Mesmer/Ele/Ranger doesn’t care because they can use that same skill again as if nothing had just happened. If you know of such, I’ll lead the charge to their subforum or at least PM a dev to ask about it with regards to that patch back in January 2013. Over in the Ranger forums we’ve learned that we’re sometimes aware of things that devs are not … as has also been illustrated multiple times in the State of the Game interviews.

laquito.5269:

Thief has been nerfed more than enough and the game finally hits a state, where I’d say that classes are all somewhat balanced, so theres no need for any more nerfs. Do you see me demanding nerfs for Guardians just because they got tons of blocks and mechanics to counter thieves? This nerf demanding has seriously reached a point of ridiculousness, cut it already.

I don’t see it as a nerf. I see it as a mechanic fix.

No one else says “I used big-hit-X and it was blocked, I’ll just use big-hit-X immediately again because it doesn’t matter”.

Sebrent.3625:

laquito.5269:

Its kinda funny that your saying Thief rewards bad playing, and I partly agree on that as you don’t need to be a good thief to be somewhat successful, but in the same breath you’re mentioning D/D Ele’s, BM ranger and Phantasm Mesmers, which are just as easy to play and also reward bad playing, maybe even more than thieves.

Where are Phantasm Mesmers, D/D Ele’s, and BM Rangers being rewarded for bad play?

I’m currently unaware of any instance where one of their attacks is successfully countered by the foe but the result is the foe has a defense on cooldown and the Mesmer/Ele/Ranger doesn’t care because they can use that same skill again as if nothing had just happened. If you know of such, I’ll lead the charge to their subforum or at least PM a dev to ask about it with regards to that patch back in January 2013. Over in the Ranger forums we’ve learned that we’re sometimes aware of things that devs are not … as has also been illustrated multiple times in the State of the Game interviews.

laquito.5269:

Thief has been nerfed more than enough and the game finally hits a state, where I’d say that classes are all somewhat balanced, so theres no need for any more nerfs. Do you see me demanding nerfs for Guardians just because they got tons of blocks and mechanics to counter thieves? This nerf demanding has seriously reached a point of ridiculousness, cut it already.

I don’t see it as a nerf. I see it as a mechanic fix.

No one else says “I used big-hit-X and it was blocked, I’ll just use big-hit-X immediately again because it doesn’t matter”.

If it was done my way this would be a buff that rewarded good plays in pvp and a flat out buff in pve but everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too.

I’m currently unaware of any instance where one of their attacks is successfully countered by the foe but the result is the foe has a defense on cooldown and the Mesmer/Ele/Ranger doesn’t care because they can use that same skill again as if nothing had just happened.

Autoattack. For a BM ranger, it would be crossfire, which is their bread and butter. The only other attacks that really need countering are poison spread on a very very low CD and concussion shot, which is an interrupt that doesn’t really need countering. Otherwise, crossfire out does everything and countering a crossfire doesn’t mean much really, cause you’ll be eating the next 10 crossfires regardless.

Phantas mesmers’ phantasms attack more than once. Sure you could try to counter it but in 5 or so seconds that duelist and that swordsman, they’re all gonna be on you again.

D/D eles…now not so much

Sebrent.3625:

I don’t see it as a nerf. I see it as a mechanic fix.

No one else says “I used big-hit-X and it was blocked, I’ll just use big-hit-X immediately again because it doesn’t matter”.

well first off no one elses big-hit-x requires positional and pre-use of other abilities to use, also press ` new set of weapon skills for them! which will probably include a new big hit move! wow magic!

Yes not all of them can do that… but wait then whats the “norm”? to have big hitters on weapons that you can swap between or not? should we change it because some do and some don’t have such effects on their weapons as well?

Crossfire? Use retaliation and/or confusion. Burst the ranger down (if you can). Crossfire isn’t that damaging, especially if they are tanky. There is no scenario where they hit you with a big hit that you counter only to have it followed by that same big hit.

Also, this is an bloody auto-attack. Anyone can keep auto-attacking you.

Phantasm Mesmers … see their attack cooldowns here (both traited and untraited).
You can also kill the Phantasms, line of sight them, kite the melee ones, or simple block, dodge, etc. them.

If you block the phantasm, it does not immediately hit you again. You just bought yourself some time before the next hit. If you reflect or use a block that has you strike back, you may even have the phantasm kill itself.

Sebrent.3625:

If that is compensation, then the thieves complaining that a countered backstab removes stealth (or my other idea) are compensated by knowing there are other ways to play a thief.

Are there? We’re kinda limited on weaponsets d/p, d/d and s/d are like the only viable at the moment, 2 of them have backstab as their main source of damage, so no there isn’t much space for other gamestyles.

Sebrent.3625:

I’m currently unaware of any instance where one of their attacks is successfully countered by the foe but the result is the foe has a defense on cooldown and the Mesmer/Ele/Ranger doesn’t care because they can use that same skill again as if nothing had just happened. If you know of such, I’ll lead the charge to their subforum or at least PM a dev to ask about it with regards to that patch back in January 2013. Over in the Ranger forums we’ve learned that we’re sometimes aware of things that devs are not … as has also been illustrated multiple times in the State of the Game interviews.

Thats due to the nature of the class, we aint got no cooldowns on any weaponset.

Sebrent.3625:

No one else says “I used big-hit-X and it was blocked, I’ll just use big-hit-X immediately again because it doesn’t matter”.

I get what you’re pointing at, but any form of revealed on block or miss WILL be a heavy nerf to our class, if you had really played your thief for a while you’d realize that. Not every player uses fleet shadows, so why would you make us dependant on 1 trait? Often enough I’m running behind a player trying to backstab him, but they’re all misses due to swiftness, dodge, block or aegis. I don’t quite get your whine, its not like the block is not visible to the player being attacked, he should’ve realized by now that he’s getting attacked, which gets him time to react.

Dasorine.1964:

Sebrent.3625:

I don’t see it as a nerf. I see it as a mechanic fix.

No one else says “I used big-hit-X and it was blocked, I’ll just use big-hit-X immediately again because it doesn’t matter”.

well first off no one elses big-hit-x requires positional and pre-use of other abilities to use, also press ` new set of weapon skills for them! which will probably include a new big hit move! wow magic!

Yes not all of them can do that… but wait then whats the “norm”? to have big hitters on weapons that you can swap between or not? should we change it because some do and some don’t have such effects on their weapons as well?

Warriors require adrenaline which requires landing hits or use of traits/utilities … same as stealth for a Thief.

Mesmers are in the same boat for their shatters.

And the list could go on.

As far as big hitters on weapons you can swap between?

Warrior has 2 big hitter burst skills, eviscerate and kill shot. Kill shot takes quite a while to channel and both are very obvious (except kill shot in zergs, but that’s another topic). Greatsword burst is amusing, sword is condition based, and hammer and mace are CC … though hammer can be nice damage if specc’d right but that spec isn’t doing axe and eviscerate any favors. Plus, you have plenty of time to see the weapon swap and the animation for the burst skill … not to mention the failed one being on cooldown and what is involved with swapping weapons (goodbye to those other skills for 5 to 10 seconds).

Mesmer can’t mind wrack until it comes back off cooldown. Cry of Frustration barely does direct damage and just got hit by the confusion nerf. The other two shatters don’t do damage.

Dasorine.1964:

Sebrent.3625:

I don’t see it as a nerf. I see it as a mechanic fix.

No one else says “I used big-hit-X and it was blocked, I’ll just use big-hit-X immediately again because it doesn’t matter”.

well first off no one elses big-hit-x requires positional and pre-use of other abilities to use, also press ` new set of weapon skills for them! which will probably include a new big hit move! wow magic!

Yes not all of them can do that… but wait then whats the “norm”? to have big hitters on weapons that you can swap between or not? should we change it because some do and some don’t have such effects on their weapons as well?

Warriors require adrenaline which requires landing hits or use of traits/utilities … same as stealth for a Thief.

Mesmers are in the same boat for their shatters.

And the list could go on.

As far as big hitters on weapons you can swap between?

Warrior has 2 big hitter burst skills, eviscerate and kill shot. Kill shot takes quite a while to channel and both are very obvious (except kill shot in zergs, but that’s another topic). Greatsword burst is amusing, sword is condition based, and hammer and mace are CC … though hammer can be nice damage if specc’d right but that spec isn’t doing axe and eviscerate any favors. Plus, you have plenty of time to see the weapon swap and the animation for the burst skill … not to mention the failed one being on cooldown and what is involved with swapping weapons (goodbye to those other skills for 5 to 10 seconds).

Mesmer can’t mind wrack until it comes back off cooldown. Cry of Frustration barely does direct damage and just got hit by the confusion nerf. The other two shatters don’t do damage.

Sebrent.3625:

Let me be clear because it’s obvious many of you aren’t reading.

I only think a thief should be revealed when:

• Their backstab hits, but is countered by a block, dodge, etc.

I do not think a thief should be revealed when:

• Their backstab (or any attack) is out of range when they use it
• They dodge
• They use a non-attack skill

What does this guarantee?

• A thief that doesn’t pay attention to their foe’s dodging, blocking, etc. will be punished just like anyone else that tries to attack when their foe is doing the same
• A thief will only be guaranteed a backstab if their opponent isn’t wise enough to use a counter

---

But hey, here’s an idea …

When a thief’s backstab is counted by being blocked, dodged, etc., backstab goes on cooldown until the thief leaves stealth.

This could be easy to implement:

• Backstab, Tactical Strike, etc. require 1 “charge” and being in stealth to use.
• You can not have more than 1 “charge”
• You gain 1 charge any time you transition from “not stealthed” to “stealthed”
• You only lose the charge if you use backstab, tactical strike, etc. and it is countered by a block, dodge, etc.
• Having your attack countered does not remove you from stealth and does not give you the revealed debuff

Why not just L2P and go to your own class forums, leave thieves alone we have been nerfed enough.

Mathias.9657:

Why not just L2P and go to your own class forums, leave thieves alone we have been nerfed enough.

I don’t get to run with [GF] on my server because I still need to L2P, friend. :-)

It isn’t a nerf unless you’re a thief that is bad enough to backstab even when your foe is blocking, dodging, etc..

If you’re a good thief, this won’t affect you.

If you’re a bad thief, it will affect you.