The reason I think that backstab/tactical striek/etc. should reveal you when you are blocked, dodged, etc. is because it promotes better play by rewarding good play and punishing bad.
If something is good regardless of skill, it isn’t good for the game … especially if it wants to be esport-quality.
If something is bad no matter what skill is involved, it isn’t good for the game.
Not having to worry about what defense(s) your opponent is using to counter an attack drastically lowers the skill required for it to be good.
It doesn’t promote more skill, at all. It’s not like GOOD PLAYERS don’t already use aegis to block a backstab, or dodge. What you would be doing is literally is attacking thieves for something that is balanced just fine. If a thief has to attack a guardian at any point in time, it will never be able to kill. Good job, you are promoting more skill.
Don’t see what is so hard to see that backstab, is only spammable because it replaces auto-attacks, (everyone’s auto-attacks are) and if it were on a CD, the thief’s stealth would run out before the backstab cd would.
(1) The cooldown idea was not my post.
(2) It promotes bad play by allowing players to completely ignore/disregard if their opponent is using a counter as well as the incorrect application of reward/punishment that I’ve posted far too many times now. Scroll up for details as I’m tired of typing it.
(3) If you feel that this makes a class “unbeatable” for specific thief builds, then the problem isn’t whether or not backstab reveals you, it’s that you feel that your class revolves too much around landing a single attack in order to defeat specific builds … this should lead to a discussion on such scenarios … some of which I’m sure to agree with you … such as the ridiculousness of retal bunker builds against Thieves that do not take sword+dagger.
So what you are saying a thief should wait for an opportune time, i.e when there is no aegis and the other player has no endurance…Because that’s not going to happen when you only have 3 – 5 seconds of stealth. I was referring to bunkers yeah, and generally you would use the shortbow to knock the aegis off, but any guard would just use their F3 right before the backstab, or not even waste it and just dodge it. Happens all the time.
I don’t understand why people want the squishiest class in this game to have less way to defend it self. If you are playing GC burst thief, you have one defensive mechanic, stealth. Why on Earth would you want to lessen the amount of stealth they could have?
(edited by EoNxBoNx.9213)
Again, if anet devs wanted stealth attacks on CD, they could have made them F2 instead of taking the place of auto attack.
You say that backstab promotes bad play by ignoring the aegis block counter? Perhaps backstab is intended to be the counter to aegis/block etc. Considering anet devs stated clearly they intended thieves to be bunker busters, having a stealth skill that counters bunker tactics seems to make perfect sense.
Also warriors can use a burst skill right after missing one, F1, miss, swap, F1
Sebrent you aren’t promoting thief good play, you are promoting other classes LAZY play. “Oh, the thief stealthed? Let me stand there with my Aegis up….”
You are only seeing half of the cup, if you look at it the other way around, it would be thieve’s backstab was made this way to differentiate good opponents from bad ones. The good ones can easily avoid a backstab, where the bad ones will take it in!
So please stop with this silly nonsense about promoting good play when you spend most of your time on your mesmer or ranger rather than thief. Oh, and stop comparing your phantasms or any other skill with backstab, we don’t press 1 and watch the backstab run off to kill others by itself….
Mesmer is a totally different class with totally different skills and mechanics than thief. Saying that something happens on thief with one skill and not on mesmer with a different skill is poor logic.
Mesmers can do many things thieves can’t. Thieves can do many things mesmers can’t. That doesn’t therefor make one inherently in need of a nerf/buff/change.
(edited by Aberrant.6749)
@EoNxBoNx.9213:
No. I’m saying a Thief should have to bait out defenses with more than backstab … watch how good Warriors, Mesmers, etc. bait out cooldowns, dodges, etc. and then suddenly slam their opponent. You already have wonderful stealth attacks for doing this, they shouldn’t “soft-ignore” the skills they are baiting out.
@Shemsu:
I believe we have discussed this before. We are both making opposite assumptions. I’ve already conceded that I’m assuming it is intended to adhere to the same gameplay mechanics as those skills listed in the January patch (and others). If ArenaNet would have one person stop being so bloody hush-hush about what gameplay mechanics are/aren’t intended, we could end this.
@Azraeel:
How is “attacking without caring what defenses are being currently used” lazier than using defenses to try to counter an attack?
It is not lazy play for a player to try to create enough space so they don’t have to blow 2 active defenses in the 3-4 seconds a thief is stealthed so that they can then use a 1.5 to 2s channeled block to avoid being backstabbed. Nor is it lazy to use a long cooldown aegis buff … you can stealth and attack on much shorter cooldowns than even Guardians can aegis … see information “baiting cooldowns” for why this matters. As an example, it’s part of why Warrior’s Bola skill is so dangerous. It’s on such a short cooldown for such a long immobilize. Compare it to most condition removals and you’ll see that a warrior can be foiled the initial few times, but each time they are winning the “cooldown meta”.
@Aberrant
I agree. Mesmer is a totally different class. This is why when I’ve listed skills, I’ve listed ones across multiple classes in the game.
However, please see my @Shemsu in this post.
Gals (and Gals, where applicable), I do not want Thieves to be weak. I really like that the developers stated that they are trying to get the Thief to be able to:
I did not create this topic. I however, did see it and when I looked, it does appear to not adhere to the same gameplay mechanics that skills of all the other classes do adhere to. This, however, is operating under the assumption that Thief’s stealth attacks are intended to adhere to the same gameplay mechanics. However, before you jump on this, do please realize that you are also assuming that it is not intended to adhere to the same gameplay mechanics ;-)
My 2 points have been, throughout this entire thread:
Yeah Sebrent, keep comparing classes to validate your moot points. Because all of the classes have the same mechanics to actually be comparable -_-.
[/sarcasm]
Azraeel, did you actually read that last post? Please reread it, particularly the parts under “@Shemsu” and “@Aberrant”.
I discuss on here to make sure actual information is spread and discussed. When I’m wrong (see my math showing I’m wrong about Thief AOEing as much as Necro), I admit it.
When there is sufficient information to prove me wrong (i.e. ArenaNet commenting on if this is intended to deviate from the game mechanic or not), then we can say who is without a doubt right or wrong.
Until then, we can discuss the current effects of it on the game and other skills if they worked the same way.
This is how logic and discussion works. Try it. Or shut it :-p
Yeah. But the answer is no.
Heres the difference Seb, if someone is thinking a warrior is about to killshot, they pop aegis, the warrior can hit autoattack clear the aegis (or blind if opponent used that) then proceed to killshot unhindered. now for thief, he goes stealth, enemy pops an aegis or blind, how does the thief clear that whilst keep stealth attack available? any attack he uses will break his stealth, there is no way for him to counter play that defense, like other classes can
Yeah. But the answer is no.
The answer to what? This post contributes nothing. Please try again.
Heres the difference Seb, if someone is thinking a warrior is about to killshot, they pop aegis, the warrior can hit autoattack clear the aegis (or blind if opponent used that) then proceed to killshot unhindered. now for thief, he goes stealth, enemy pops an aegis or blind, how does the thief clear that whilst keep stealth attack available? any attack he uses will break his stealth, there is no way for him to counter play that defense, like other classes can
You make a very good point here Shemsu.
One could argue that the Thief should simply let stealth drop without gaining revealed, hit aegis with a quick auto and continue on with the fight with the Guardian having one less cooldown and the Thief having, at worst, 3 less initiative (4s worth of initiative). This may be okay and balanced, it may not be.
If it is not balanced:
If it is balanced
Do we agree? Or is there more to add? I feel like we’re close to agreeing here.
There’s no need to change Backstab such. The longer you take to land a backstab, the more likely you are to land a facestab instead.
There’s no need to change Backstab such. The longer you take to land a backstab, the more likely you are to land a facestab instead.
Unfortunately, the d/p thief allows you to create a blinding field and stealth without taking damage. Continuous spamming of this allows you to stay in stealth until you land your backstab. This is why I don’t mind the spamming. I simply would like dodge block and blind to reveal a thief.
Isn’t it bad enough that it removes venoms (which makes no sense… I guess the venom just flys off your weapon and onto the ground). Don’t need more annoying functions. Stealth doesn’t last long enough for it to matter, plus it’s obvious they’re within melee range of you if they’re going in for a backstab so why would you need it? Are people that awful at predicting where they are?
@stof:
Let me try to rephrase this. Would you not prefer to get something else that allows you to perform better unstealthed in exchange for having to pay attention to blocks/dodges when using a stealth attack?
@Zelulose:
This is a good point, but I think also an outlier due to how specific it is to a single weapon set (a problem with thief anti-boon ability as well) and costs a large amount of initiative to do.
I think the bigger issue with what you’ve stated is that they can use it to stack stealth for so long … though standing in the field can prevent them from doing so … though that forces you to blind yourself and eat a hit.
Backstab is fine. Thief class is far from strongest in PVP or PVE (especially PVE). This change would only weaken the class further, therefore it is nothing more than a nerf call.
There’s no need to change Backstab such. The longer you take to land a backstab, the more likely you are to land a facestab instead.
Unfortunately, the d/p thief allows you to create a blinding field and stealth without taking damage. Continuous spamming of this allows you to stay in stealth until you land your backstab. This is why I don’t mind the spamming. I simply would like dodge block and blind to reveal a thief.
Isn’t it bad enough that it removes venoms (which makes no sense… I guess the venom just flys off your weapon and onto the ground). Don’t need more annoying functions. Stealth doesn’t last long enough for it to matter, plus it’s obvious they’re within melee range of you if they’re going in for a backstab so why would you need it? Are people that awful at predicting where they are?
Venoms were buffed. They no longer remove if you hit the air. Only if evaded or dodged or blocked. They used to remove when hitting nothing.
Thats like painting a Honda with no engine with 2000 dollar paint and claiming the car has been fixed.
I actually do think we are pretty close to an understanding.
In order to make all parties feel content on this issue, i think the best solution would be to make stealth attacks an F2 mechanic, they could be given a cooldown (if cooldown is very significant, then the attacks could be buffed to compensate)
That would in one stroke fix the spamming backstab issue people have, without needing to cause reveal for no reason. This could also be sort of a add in to the reveal mechanic, or justify putting reveal down to 3s in pvp again, since a thief wouldnt be able to backstab no matter how much they stealthed with whatever cd was put on it.
Trickery could also be used to reduce stealth attack cooldowns giving it more purpose as well
There’s no need to change Backstab such. The longer you take to land a backstab, the more likely you are to land a facestab instead.
Unfortunately, the d/p thief allows you to create a blinding field and stealth without taking damage. Continuous spamming of this allows you to stay in stealth until you land your backstab. This is why I don’t mind the spamming. I simply would like dodge block and blind to reveal a thief.
Isn’t it bad enough that it removes venoms (which makes no sense… I guess the venom just flys off your weapon and onto the ground). Don’t need more annoying functions. Stealth doesn’t last long enough for it to matter, plus it’s obvious they’re within melee range of you if they’re going in for a backstab so why would you need it? Are people that awful at predicting where they are?
Venoms were buffed. They no longer remove if you hit the air. Only if evaded or dodged or blocked. They used to remove when hitting nothing.
Thats like painting a Honda with no engine with 2000 dollar paint and claiming the car has been fixed.
Your analogy doesn’t make much sense (least not to me).
Poisons are working the way every other non-stealth-attack skill in the game works. If you use it and it gets countered by an enemy defense, it still gets consumed.
Only a few things work worse than this, Mesmer illusions being one of them (full cooldown but no illusion if target is out-of-range, out out line-of-sight, blocking, dodging, invuln). The bold instances being what makes it “worse”.
I think, with the anti-stealth traps this discussion has become obsolete.
There’s no need to change Backstab such. The longer you take to land a backstab, the more likely you are to land a facestab instead.
Unfortunately, the d/p thief allows you to create a blinding field and stealth without taking damage. Continuous spamming of this allows you to stay in stealth until you land your backstab. This is why I don’t mind the spamming. I simply would like dodge block and blind to reveal a thief.
you realize that the black powder shot blinding field doesnt kill melee dmg. only if the opponent is silly enough to enter it. you can do dmg outside of the field quiet easily. you can even do dmg inside the field. (every other hit) not only that if u stand next to the field they cant stack stealth bc they will hit u with HS.
There’s no need to change Backstab such. The longer you take to land a backstab, the more likely you are to land a facestab instead.
Unfortunately, the d/p thief allows you to create a blinding field and stealth without taking damage. Continuous spamming of this allows you to stay in stealth until you land your backstab. This is why I don’t mind the spamming. I simply would like dodge block and blind to reveal a thief.
you realize that the black powder shot blinding field doesnt kill melee dmg. only if the opponent is silly enough to enter it. you can do dmg outside of the field quiet easily. you can even do dmg inside the field. (every other hit) not only that if u stand next to the field they cant stack stealth bc they will hit u with HS.
There are ways to HS out of blinding field without hitting your target. The blinding field pulsing blind every second is the damage delay needed to stealth again and black powder also can hit with a blinding shot. Furthermore, it can be stacked for double blind pulsing. My honest questions that I will present to you, beside defending my point, are why are you so interested in defending this skill? Is it so overpowered that a nerf to this skill would ruin your builds ability to spam stealth while preventing other players from interrupting your HS? If not what is your honest intention for claiming this blinding field does not skill damage considering it is a BLINDING FIELD?
To end this I will quote you from another forum. And to defend yourself you may want to delete it lol.
d/p if played perfect will never lose to s/d…… and d/p has blinds for group play which is better than what sword does…..s/d doesnt do anything for group play other than being able to hit more than 1 target if they group up. p/d does the most for group play when running condi hp build.
Ironically, I’m pretty sure you said blind does not kill melee damage. But it sounds like its pretty effective according to this statement.
s/d played perfectly should never win aginst d/p played perfectly…… this is granted nobody runs. this is bc d/p has more heals / condi removals/blinds/intiative regen s/d only has a lil extra intiative gain. i could literally switch to p/d 2ndary and bleed you to death without a worry in the world. its just a bad matchup for s/d thats all. s/d is more for boon builds and melee builds. d/p can stay invis…..
blind field is very small. im not saying its not super strong/useful. what i am saying is u can work around it ikittennow that the range of your attacks is greater than the fields. ok also i have brought numers thieves out of that by hs hitting me….ok sure…whatever 1200 dmg to give them revealed? ill take it. gives me time to beatdown and use head shot.
that said i think the the pulse is fine but the duration is a little too long. drop it a second and it will change drasitcally….it will blind less and stack less stealth. then re evaluate.
What do you think should be done to give players the ability to counter backstab?
There is this thing called keep moving you can use. It costs nothing..
What do you think should be done to give players the ability to counter backstab?
There is this thing called keep moving you can use. It costs nothing..
Thieves run 50% faster in stealth I already tried that. We still need a counter not necessarily a nerf. Just a way to stop its spamming ability.
yes.. because all thieves have at least 10 into acrobatics
Ignoring the thief defenders I repeat….
I think the issue is that something must be done to allow players to counter a thief’s backstab without ruining the stealth attacks or stealth itself. So far the only methods I know are the following: Changing backstab damage, giving BS a cooldown, causing backstab to reveal on hit, causing backstab to reveal on block bind and evade, reducing stealth to prevent more backstab, longer reveals to prevent more backstabs, a nerf to blinding field to prevent stealthing for backstab, or ultimately removing backstab itself. What do you think should be done to give players the ability to counter backstab? One of these options or a new alternative?
a suggestion for COUNTERS is more on topic.
I suppose we could lower BS damage, as long as we increase Dagger damage across the board to justify it.
We could put a CD on BS, as long as we increased the BS damage to justify it.
We could reduce access to stealth, as long as thieves get access to protection and stability.
Or you know, you could L2P? I mean, are there other ways to counter an ability that currently doesn’t pose a problem to skilled players?
Thief is in a good place now , stop talking kitten about the backstab should reveal you , there is almost no room for mistakes as is while playing a bs build. And when in doubt try to dodge ?
I gave you a counter. Its called moving.
Didn’t bother reading most posts as it is no doubt filled with the same yes/no crap that litters the thief forums. All I wanted to say in regards to the OP is that the true skill, planning and counterplay is in knowing how the thief will position, how long his stealth will (potentially) last and thus positioning yourself such that he’ll go out of stealth before he can land a hit on you; thereby wasting his stealth. I can say that as a thief I have little problem with other thieves landing the backstab on me since I know how it works. Just evading a stealthed backstab is no achievement really.. but avoiding the backstab till stealth wears off is. And you have a reward for that: an unstealthed thief.
If they make stealth lost on miss/blocked stealth attacks, it would be fair to not trigger revealed.
This way you can try again if you have the ini for it. Like many other class mechanics that go on reduced CD if you miss.
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