Guild Wars 2

I was disappointed to see that Mug remained unchanged in this patch. I think it needs the “kit refinement” treatment. It remains way too powerful for its position on the skill tree.

Now that 100 nades is gone, I don’t think there are any other 10 point traits that do this much damage (6k+ in some situations), let alone instant cast from 900 range. In fact, show me any other instant cast skill with no animation that does this much damage. What makes this game’s combat fun and exciting is reacting to what your enemy is doing, and with mug, there is simply no chance to react.

Suggestion: make the damage apply only if the steal was initiated in melee range OR reduce the damage coefficient OR make it so it cannot crit OR move it to a deeper trait spot in a non-damage oriented tree.

Mug’s greatest value/threat is in cheesy glass cannon burst builds. Outside of those builds, it’s not all that dangerous.

With 4s revealed + culling removal, players running those cheesy burst builds are pretty much free kills.

Straegen.2938:

GC or not mug should have been adjusted as it is certainly one of the best bang for buck traits on any crit build. Taking just mug gives steal a poison for 10 seconds, a free mid-range HS and the ability that is stolen. Add in Hidden Thief trait followed by BS to the mix and most characters will wilt under that damage. This also means easily dropping 10k damage on a player before the thief is even seen.

You’re taking a whole bunch of different things that have nothing to do with the Mug trait and lumping them in with it and saying Mug is great value, though.

Second, most crit builds are glass cannon because for a thief it’s usually pointless to stack crit unless you’ve already stacked power.

Mug adds damage equivalent to the middle damage tier on a Heartseeker (mediocre damage quantity) and adds it to a 45s cooldown you’re going to use anyway. Situationally, it can be very good, but in the big picture of overall damage (considering the cooldown on Steal) it’s nothing really special. Just for example, Elementalists have 4-5 10pt traits available with roughly equivalent overall value depending on their build – it’s just that some of them are for things other than raw damage.

Kavia.8249:

I was disappointed to see that Mug remained unchanged in this patch. I think it needs the “kit refinement” treatment. It remains way too powerful for its position on the skill tree.

Now that 100 nades is gone, I don’t think there are any other 10 point traits that do this much damage (6k+ in some situations), let alone instant cast from 900 range. In fact, show me any other instant cast skill with no animation that does this much damage. What makes this game’s combat fun and exciting is reacting to what your enemy is doing, and with mug, there is simply no chance to react.

Suggestion: make the damage apply only if the steal was initiated in melee range OR reduce the damage coefficient OR make it so it cannot crit OR move it to a deeper trait spot in a non-damage oriented tree.

I don’t think mug needs to he changed, but I think the kit refinement nerf went too far. They made it into utility like they said which is alright, but having a 20 sec global cooldown for just utility skills is fairly extreme. Way worse now than an eles ability to change attunements on a class that’s supposed to be flexible in all situations. Bring KR up to the level of mug in terms of value.

Another thought with the idea of giving it more utility instead of straight (surprise) damage – give it the assassin signet treatment: increase the damage of the next 5 attacks by some amount that totals the current damage it does now.

Re: it being a mid range heartseeker with 45 sec cooldown – I would not have any problem if it performed like heartseeker with a leap and cast-time – at least you could have a split second to see it coming and avoid, just like you can with heartseeker or warrior eviscerate.

I’d be up for a Mug nerf, as it can get quite ridiculous.

For example:-

In my 10/20/20/20/0 D/P init build (Zerker gear)

Was 1v1 with another (Level 80) Thief in WvW, on the outskirts of one of his camps (Just out of aggro range of Scouts) he came at me, stealthed up and tried for an opener I countered with BP > HS and waited for his stealth to wear off and opened. My opening hits (Stealth wore out by the time I got to him) of auto-attacks took about 1/5th of his health off and then used Steal and he was instantly downed with a crit (Don’t recall what the value was due to not paying attention and the Scouts aggroed onto me from doing this).

I just stood there, completely astounded at the stupid amounts of damage I was able to put out with a 10 point trait that tacks on damage to a 900 range shadowstep + utility mechanic.

If they could replace it with something like “Stolen items do X damage” where X could be either a percentage value or a static value (Maybe even a “Steal causes X Life Siphon” (Life Siphon’s can’t crit and don’t always scale with gear but have the advantage of ignoring armour))

the issue with reducing effectiveness is the whole having to calculate in the big cooldown as well.

It does fantastic damage that adds a great deal in burst situations, however the moment that burst doesn’t finish the target its now massively underpowered for the simple fact that it most likely won’t be up again in that fight.

That 45 second base cooldown sort of wrankles any way to change it simply and doing indepth changes is not the current style for balance.

Man, people don’t slow down. The DPS nerfs thieves got this patch I guess aren’t enough. Nerf more!

But don’t fret OP, mug will be nerfed next patch after all the thieves respec to glass and anet realizes they didn’t actually fix the real problem.

rly please stop to cry and l2p !

Please do not wish the Kit Refinement treatment on any other class. That’s just uncalled for.

To all trying to defend thief nerfs. You’ll never get through to these people, yesterday it was nerf stealth, now its not nerfed enough and mug needs a nerf. If mug gets nerfed its going to be pistol whip needs a nerf. It was the same with rogues in wow, nerf nerf nerf. It sucks and I’m guilty of trying to defend things to these trolls but its best to stop replying. Let there QQ post get drowned out by all the other QQ posts. Sorry for the rant but the thief forums are horribly toxic and full of more non thieves or thieve haters then actual thieves. Go look around in the other class forums and they have good discussion about the class and are helpful. Any thread I’ve seen some one asking for help there’s at least one reply that is talking kitten about thieves. /end rant :-/

Why don’t you go and play hello kitty online instead? Cause if they do that then you will probably ask for nerf through autoattacks. And when they do that you will ask for something else and something else until you can kill a thief and prove to your self you were not as bad but in reality you have been the only bad player from the beginning.

And that is your problem.

L2P.

Daeqar.8965:

Mug’s greatest value/threat is in cheesy glass cannon burst builds. Outside of those builds, it’s not all that dangerous.

With 4s revealed + culling removal, players running those cheesy burst builds are pretty much free kills.

Increases reveal does not touch those cheesy mug burst builds. However it does kick right to the balls for stealth builds.
Ps.: Do not call 25/30/0/0/15 or 30/30/0/0/10 d/d a stealth build, couse it aint.

Rediculous. I thought it would be nerfed or changed. 6k+ instant range attack for just 10 trait points is crazy. Half the damage, or make it a 30 point trait.

How is everyone getting hit with 6k mugs? I run a 1.2k toughness thief and Mug hits me for about 3.5k…I mean if your running GC expect to be hit hard…

Zikory.6871:

How is everyone getting hit with 6k mugs? I run a 1.2k toughness thief and Mug hits me for about 3.5k…I mean if your running GC expect to be hit hard…

its because they take the full out zerker thief hits, add a little extra to them and then think there the average thief hits.

And even then they are only concerned about the burst nature in pvp and not the fact that its on a 45 second base cooldown and such.

There was someone complaining about 3k auto attacks against 3k armour when my (albeit not 100% accurate) calculations put the required stats for that at around 110% crit damage and 4289 power which I don’t think the average thief runs with :/

Dasorine.1964:

Zikory.6871:

How is everyone getting hit with 6k mugs? I run a 1.2k toughness thief and Mug hits me for about 3.5k…I mean if your running GC expect to be hit hard…

its because they take the full out zerker thief hits, add a little extra to them and then think there the average thief hits.

And even then they are only concerned about the burst nature in pvp and not the fact that its on a 45 second base cooldown and such.

There was someone complaining about 3k auto attacks against 3k armour when my (albeit not 100% accurate) calculations put the required stats for that at around 110% crit damage and 4289 power which I don’t think the average thief runs with :/

not average but completely possible in WvW!

indeed may be possible but complaining about an entire profession because of whats technically possible makes no sense, specially when you don’t also calculate what they loose and the circumstances needed to obtain that possibility

google.3709:

Dasorine.1964:

Zikory.6871:

How is everyone getting hit with 6k mugs? I run a 1.2k toughness thief and Mug hits me for about 3.5k…I mean if your running GC expect to be hit hard…

its because they take the full out zerker thief hits, add a little extra to them and then think there the average thief hits.

And even then they are only concerned about the burst nature in pvp and not the fact that its on a 45 second base cooldown and such.

There was someone complaining about 3k auto attacks against 3k armour when my (albeit not 100% accurate) calculations put the required stats for that at around 110% crit damage and 4289 power which I don’t think the average thief runs with :/

not average but completely possible in WvW!

I don’t think a thief can have that much power…with full might and bloodlust stacks along with all ascended infused with +5 power. The most I could squeeze out was 4093 power and thats with plate of Truffle Steak Dinner which grants 200 power on kill…

Edit: It didn’t factor in the signets passive power so 4093. Fixed above.

Zikory.6871:

I don’t think a thief can have that much power…with full might and bloodlust stacks along with all ascended infused with +5 power. The most I could squeeze out was 4093 power and thats with plate of Truffle Steak Dinner which grants 200 power on kill…

Edit: It didn’t factor in the signets passive power so 4093. Fixed above.

I did say my calculations weren’t 100% accurate, pretty sure you can squeeze a few % more crit damage out somewhere and I didn’t include some damage boosts, so that damage most likely is possible.

The point however is that it would take complete specialization of your build to hit that, to the point where outside of that damage you have nothing else going for you.

Yet people state those numbers and claim every thief hits that and totally ignore the penalties and the fact that not every thief is in identical builds.

It would very much be like complaining about being killed by a 100 blades warrior and then asking for the entire profession to be nerfed.

I would have to test it out, currently running full condi build cause DB is jsut that fun in the middle or zergs but thief have no problem getting 3,600 power and might is 35 power per might so 25 = 875 power which would put you at 4,475 power without blood lust or food

with bloodlust and food ( 200 on kill ), max attack should be 4,925 and if they use sword, it could easily be way over 3k with auto attack

it was dagger auto attacks (wild strike and lotus strike specifically)

and at some point I will have to properly sit down and try and work out max possibles, quick calcs never get me to numbers others state (last calc got to 3983 power with 200 on kill food, 25 might stacks, blood lust, sharpening stones etc) I must keep missing things, dropped 110 from zikorys calcs and almost a thousand from googles…

Straegen.2938:

GC or not mug should have been adjusted as it is certainly one of the best bang for buck traits on any crit build. Taking just mug gives steal a poison for 10 seconds, a free mid-range HS and the ability that is stolen. Add in Hidden Thief trait followed by BS to the mix and most characters will wilt under that damage. This also means easily dropping 10k damage on a player before the thief is even seen.

Just clarifying: if you take the Hidden Thief trait, you can no longer use the HS+Steal combo as that will reveal you (or any +Steal combo, for that matter). Taking the Hidden Thief trait also means you’re investing points from the Deadly Arts tree into the Shadow Arts, which greatly reduces your damage and you can no longer inflict poison upon stealing or the 10% extra damage from that same poison.

Henrik.7560:

Rediculous. I thought it would be nerfed or changed. 6k+ instant range attack for just 10 trait points is crazy. Half the damage, or make it a 30 point trait.

Pretty much this.

Karolis.4261:

Daeqar.8965:

Mug’s greatest value/threat is in cheesy glass cannon burst builds. Outside of those builds, it’s not all that dangerous.

With 4s revealed + culling removal, players running those cheesy burst builds are pretty much free kills.

Increases reveal does not touch those cheesy mug burst builds. However it does kick right to the balls for stealth builds.
Ps.: Do not call 25/30/0/0/15 or 30/30/0/0/10 d/d a stealth build, couse it aint.

Of course 4s revealed hurts them. Against a decent build, cheese burst can’t possibly get a kill in the first combo. (It’s impossible for them to kill me in my balanced build even if they get a full combo on their first pass, for example.)

Now, after they blow their cooldowns in a failed attempt to one-shot, they are fully visible and vulnerable for 4s before they can even attempt going back into stealth. Before, they only had to wait 3s and were culled for a bit to start making them more difficult to locate.

I could kill them before without a lot of difficulty because they were so squishy; now they are like sitting ducks. Paper ducks, actually.

The amount of damage on MUG was never the issue. Allowing the ability to be off the GCD so that you can cast CnD, MUG, allow CnD to finish and backstab. Put steal (when traited for MUG) on the GCD and alot of this will go away. Possibly move it to a tier 2 to make people happy. It hits about as hard as heartseeker at 50% with double the range. The cooldown is fairly substantial already.

MUG isn’t the issue as much as crit dmg/crit is rewarded far too highly in this game versus conditions, heals, and armor. I can kill just the same with my static discharge engineer and more often as well as hitting more than one enemy. rifle, toolkit, rifle turret, goggles, medkit… full zerker and blamo. Again because half of those abilites are off the GCD.

you already nerfed sword dagger, killed are stealth took away are haste now you want a mug nerf its crazy, just stop already.

Dasorine.1964:

it was dagger auto attacks (wild strike and lotus strike specifically)

and at some point I will have to properly sit down and try and work out max possibles, quick calcs never get me to numbers others state (last calc got to 3983 power with 200 on kill food, 25 might stacks, blood lust, sharpening stones etc) I must keep missing things, dropped 110 from zikorys calcs and almost a thousand from googles…

I used http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/ and After toying with it to maximize power I ended up with 4313 power and 122% crit damage. Thats with full ascended infused (with the +5 power) Rings earrings amulet and back. Full zerker gear with 5 runes of the scholar and 1 ruby orb. 25 stacks of bloodlust and might and 200 power from the food after a kill. 90 power from assassins signet. This is assuming your running a build that has 30 in deadly arts and critical strikes. Remember I was only trying to maximize the amount of power, the 6th rune of the scholar would probably better then a ruby orb. and I don’t know many builds that would go 30/30/x/x/x.

Reedy.6018:

you already nerfed sword dagger, killed are stealth took away are haste now you want a mug nerf its crazy, just stop already.

Blame the devs, no one was really thinking about it and then they said they were gonna do it on the SoTG! and then didn’t do it! so lots of people want it now! they are teasers! same with mesmer’s shatters >.>