Guild Wars 2

Let me open by saying this is not a “teef op nerf pls” post. I am well aware that the class has received a number of nerfs recently (although I still hate them because they hard counter my Mes if I don’t get the jump on them). This post is about what I dislike about the class’s design and why I find it inferior to the Assassin’s in GW1.

I have a level 80 Thief…but I honestly despise playing it. This is because the combination of the initiative system and weapon attack designs make the class feel “spammy.” Not matter what weapon set, the pattern is generally that one or two skills deal the damage and the rest are situational. Most builds you see generally stick in one weapon set and then have a shortbow for emergencies.

Now lets compare this to the GW1 Sin. It was a class that was generally used to burst down a single target quickly, same as Thief. However, where it differs dramatically is how that damage is done. Many of the more damaging combos were composed of a chain of skills that required certain prerequisites in order to carry on to the next attack. For example, you couldn’t use one skill unless your foe was knocked down or poisoned or you hit with another attack of a certain type first. If you screwed up your combo or they avoided a certain part, you had to start over. Some builds were more “spammable” where you only had a few attack skills and more utility. Even these builds still punished you for messing up your chain however and had less burst.

When you nailed that full chain on someone, it felt like you just did something impressive. That is not the feeling I get when I play Thief. Instead I either repeatedly leap through a smoke field to backstab or simply teleport in, use skill 3 a few times, then teleport back out and do it all over again.

The problem is, it might be far too late to change Thieves so that the damage is spread out among multiple skills so that it encourages chaining them. I’m also not a Thief main and maybe those that are really enjoy this playstyle. For me personally, I enjoy fighting most classes in the game. I think an important part of balance is that not only is something fun to play, but fun to play against. Fighting a Thief that constantly uses the same sequence of skills (again, not their fault, the game forces it) isn’t nearly as engaging. While all classes have obvious combos, they generally have longer CDs. In addition, on other classes you are swapping weapon/kits/elements so you are seeing at least 2 different fighting styles.

Here’s some bullet points because I’m sure as with many of my posts some of you will skim and then say something about something I mentioned already:

• The lack of CDs and the fact that only a few skills per weapon actually deal damage make the class feel repetitive or spammy.

• GW1 Assassin was more focused on chaining skills together that required prerequisites and failing along the way interrupted the chain and it was not easily restarted (with exceptions)

• The class would feel more skillful if currently situational or underused skills applied effects that increased the effectiveness of other attacks. In other words you may have to lower the damage of some skills by default but make them deal more damage if say the target is poisoned or knocked down.

• This could lead to some cool cross weapon combos. For example, a short combo on one set may lead to you being able to swap and deal more damage on another. This would encourage using your other set more often.

I actually want to hear the thoughts on the class’s design from main Thief’s. For me, every time I try and get into it I just can’t. I played Assassin a good amount (I played everything really, GW1 was easy to level/gear) and Thief just doesn’t feel like a real successor.

As a final point that I want to drive home, I am NOT a Thief expert. I do know the class’s strengths (like hardcountering all my Mes builds QQ) and weaknesses (“Oh look a Guard, I’m screwed”) but I find it even less interesting mechanically than Warrior, at least on that class I use both weapon sets frequently. I hope there’s a way to make the class feel more dynamic that doesn’t involve a complete overhaul because that is unlikely to happen.

BurrTheKing.8571:

I have a level 80 Thief…but I honestly despise playing it. This is because the combination of the initiative system and weapon attack designs make the class feel “spammy.” Not matter what weapon set, the pattern is generally that one or two skills deal the damage and the rest are situational. Most builds you see generally stick in one weapon set and then have a shortbow for emergencies.

I’m in the exact opposite boat.

Coming from 1000 hours of Warrioring, I found that the initiative on Thief allows me to enjoy playing Thief because I don’t end up spamming autoattack or swapping weapons, the latter of which would only remind me how much better Warriors are at that.

Then again, I deliberately avoid builds that only use 2-3 of the 5 weapon skills. I quickly grew bored of x/D because you never use Dancing Dagger. On P/P, you pretty much only use Unload. The two weaponsets I would even consider for use would be D/P and S/P.

The problem is, it might be far too late to change Thieves so that the damage is spread out among multiple skills so that it encourages chaining them. I’m also not a Thief main and maybe those that are really enjoy this playstyle. For me personally, I enjoy fighting most classes in the game. I think an important part of balance is that not only is something fun to play, but fun to play against. Fighting a Thief that constantly uses the same sequence of skills (again, not their fault, the game forces it) isn’t nearly as engaging. While all classes have obvious combos, they generally have longer CDs. In addition, on other classes you are swapping weapon/kits/elements so you are seeing at least 2 different fighting styles.

While I agree that there is an awful lot of builds where major damage comes from a single skill (Backstab, Unload, Pistol Whip, Sneak Attack, Larcenous Strike), I don’t think that’s that big of an issue.

The initiative system gets wasted on Thieves because there’s so many weapon sets that have at least 1 skill that is considered useless. When does a power D/D use Death Blossom? When does S/D use Dancing Dagger? When does P/P use Body Shot? The great thing about initiative is that you can use the same skills in a quick repetition, making weapon swapping a choice rather than a necessity.

A lot of the “issues” with Thieves come from people insisting on playing with Stealth. S/D is popular in sPvP due to the way the mode works against stealth, but outside of that, most people seem to consider Thief synonymous with Stealth. Stealth in turn pigeonholes you into Shadow Arts and stealth skills (Backstab, Sneak Attack, Tactical Strike), which make for repetitive combat.

TL;DR: You don’t need to change the core of Thief gameplay, just make all of the non-stealth skills worth using.

I think we have some common ground there. It might be possible to give unused skills like Dancing Dagger an effect that makes another attack on the bar deal more damage. Of course, to balance this out the default damage of said skill may need to be lowered but in exchange if you combo it you can deal even more damage than you do currently.

You could do some really cool things with that concept. Maybe a skill on P/P makes another on D/D more powerful of visa versa. It could give sets that you never see used more skilled play.

Stealth is certainly an issue on Thief. I can’t say it’s an issue on any other class because even Mesmer doesn’t use it anywhere near as much as and Thief build that isn’t S/D (because PU is more for solo roaming which while annoying, not really OP). Fighting someone who stealths what feels like constantly isn’t fun for a lot of people, a view I get from how people hate of them both here and in game. Same issue with evades, even with the changes they still feel less like something you save to avoid the heavy hitters and more like something you just use when you can because it’s up often enough.

That’s an issue I have with many builds, they lack the deliberateness that GW1 had. Only a handful of builds really force you to be extra careful when using your skills. It gives the game a much more casual feel that I never got with GW1. I want every class to be punished for missing skills so that combat feels both fast but deliberate. It will also help from the Esports point of view because it would make fights less chaotic.

Interesting opinions, I like the way thief plays though because of the initiative system. You have the option of sustaining your resources or exhausting them all, which I like managing.

OP: A lot of people say they have a rotation – I have none. I might have one if I were maining a different class but thanks to no cooldowns I’m not really forced to have one. I just watched a GW1 pvp video – I haven’t played that game and it kind of looks like chess. So no dodges, no evades, if you were planning your attack you could be rather certain that your opponent would be at the same place when you’re finished with your chain.
And I actually enjoy playing against D/x thieves because I have to think a lot more than when fighting a different class.

Warning, long post:

BurrTheKing.8571:

Let me open by saying this is not a “teef op nerf pls” post. I am well aware that the class has received a number of nerfs recently (although I still hate them because they hard counter my Mes if I don’t get the jump on them). This post is about what I dislike about the class’s design and why I find it inferior to the Assassin’s in GW1.

The Assassin, as well (but to a much lesser extent) with the Ritualist, were regarded as one-trick-pony classes by many who played competitively. The Assassin was cheese incarnate. They were hated just as much in gw1, so whenever someone said it was a valuable and rewarding class, my ears perk up and my brow furrows because i suspect shenanigans. They were incredibly strong against newer players, and near useless but still hated for the competitive scene for their ports. Their skills, and the combo system, were too restrictive (every single skill on their bar was typically some type of an attack) and their ports (of which most people only used one really good port; because they needed so many attacks) were incredibly powerful for the original gw game and its format.

BurrTheKing.8571:

I have a level 80 Thief…but I honestly despise playing it. This is because the combination of the initiative system and weapon attack designs make the class feel “spammy.” Not matter what weapon set, the pattern is generally that one or two skills deal the damage and the rest are situational. Most builds you see generally stick in one weapon set and then have a shortbow for emergencies.

You’re not alone, everyone says this, but it’s incorrect. Everything is situational on the thief bar. This is why thief is a better designed class than the Assassin – thieves are not one-trick-ponies. As an example, many thieves and other less experienced players think shortbow is only a utility weapon and the only way thieves do damage is through backstab. “So don’t nerf their crit dmg; they’ll be useless!” or “So they’re spammy op class!” pop up often as a result. Every one of these players is bad and doesn’t understand what the thief can do. I’m dead serious on this – even the thieves who say this are bad. The biggest strength to the thief, when you learn how to play them well, is their ability to be incredibly unpredictable. Shortbow is an incredibly good weapon (not just for its 5 ability), and in the end you are not just spamming 222 or 333 when you play thief well.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Some builds were more “spammable” where you only had a few attack skills and more utility.

They were awful builds. The only builds accepted amongst the competitive scene involved 5 to 6 weapon skills, a defensive stance, and a port this is an example.

BurrTheKing.8571:

When you nailed that full chain on someone, it felt like you just did something impressive.

It felt like landing your 1-trick-pony. Congratulations. You were able to successfully press 1, then 2, then 3, then 4, then 5 to deal damage and not miss. Now you have to wait 20 to 30 seconds before you can do anything else. A simple ele who had an ounce of situational awareness could make you a deadweight on the team by simply pressing blinding flash while you do your combo.

In contrast, let’s look at Shock Axe Warrior. It’s in charge of setting up spikes with shock (which could interrupt skills) or bulls charge (which required you to time it correctly because it was only effective on moving targets). It could interrupt skills with a well timed disrupting chop (usually when the target got up after a knockdown). You had to know when to use fury or rush. Fury made you 50% weaker to attacks, but could be canceled by using rush if they focused you (which allowed you to catch fleeing foes or run away). You could prevent spikes (and counterspike) by using your bulls charge or shock ability. You could split push with a ranger. Help prepare for VoD if their base defender goes back to defend. Ultimately, you were THE guy on the team to set up damage because your high armor levels and knockdowns allowed you to push their mid to backline safely. You didn’t have to wait 20 to 30 seconds to be effective again.

Let’s also look at Cripshot Ranger. Quite literally, they are the epitome of a necessary class for virtually all teams – their roles were so many, given on what the team needed. However a good cripshot ranger – even in such high demand – was always hard to find. It’s a spec focused on spreading poison around on enemies to pressure the monks, can split push, help prepare for VoD, can flag run in a pinch, can prevent and support nukes with crippling shot + a well timed savage shot, is a critical class in attempting to interrupt important skills like diversion or guardian to be successful (on top of focusing on many other classes to spread the poison around and prevent/support spikes).

If anything, the thief class is more comparable to a cripshot ranger than the Assassin class. To many on the forums, they would probably consider cripshot ranger as an op spec – then claim that gw1 longbow ranger spike took real skill to play.

BurrTheKing.8571:

The problem is, it might be far too late to change Thieves so that the damage is spread out among multiple skills so that it encourages chaining them.

As I said before, Thieves already do this. Another example, there is a reason why people use hide in shadows over the no-brainer withdraw on d/p. The fundamental reason is because shortbow stealth attack sets up so much stuff to help support the team with a 2 sec immob and to land your steal item skills, and having access to at least 2 sources of stealth outside of your weapon set allows you to pull off some advanced and effective combos. One way a thief can deal with an engineer is to land immob, throw gunk, cast bassi venom, bassi venom will trigger on gunk, then you can choose to weaponswap into shadowshot for a blind into followup damage, or you can clusterbomb for the chaos armor. The end result is overloading the engie with conditions and significantly tearing into them with your melee attacks while they try to deal. On the plus side, you might have just saved your teammate getting trained down with this. Granted, most of the time though, all you need is the immob into gunk into shadow shot to help a player. Another way to deal with engies is to pop bassi venom, blink + blackpowder shot to bait out the possible protection injection, then rip it off with a classic heartseeker steal backstab combo.
Other examples:

When fighting against a -good- warrior, it’s pretty critical to land your interrupt on combustive shot. Save whirling blades for when he enters longbow and pop down a blackpowder field at his feet with a blink or a prepped immob/bassi venom with a blink before you do.

When fighting a d/d ele, you need to focus on stripping their protection when they exit out of earth attunement, avoid their damage when in fire, save ice shard when they exit water attunement (which requires an immob from shortbow stealth or bassi venom to land against good d/d’s) and avoid their cc from air.

BurrTheKing.8571:

I’m also not a Thief main and maybe those that are really enjoy this playstyle.

Good thieves enjoy the class because it requires you to think about what you are doing and what skill is appropriate for any given situation in a blink of an eye. Many try different things – even if it’s not the most optimal – because unpredictability is crucial. Thieves don’t get cooldowns on our weapon skills, however thieves most reliable source of damage is melee range and they get killed by two to three good hits. Play S/D Shortbow Survival Ranger and you have comparable dodge potential, have cooldowns, but are incredibly tanky compared to thieves, have good base health, and regen up the butt. On the other hand, you have to be able to micromanage your pet. There are tradeoffs for everything.

BurrTheKing.8571:

Fighting a Thief that constantly uses the same sequence of skills (again, not their fault, the game forces it) isn’t nearly as engaging.

So punish these terrible thieves for being so predictable like you would punish greatsword guardians for being so predictable. People need to use their brain instead of their rotations.

BurrTheKing.8571:

In addition, on other classes you are swapping weapon/kits/elements so you are seeing at least 2 different fighting styles.

Good thieves do the exact same thing.

Current thief design is different from Assassin. When the former is designed to mindkitty with other people while the latter is more step-by-step burst oriented. No change has to be done, I like my thief this way.

But I like the DB more in gw1. Lol

For anyone interested, this is a more refined description of a cripshot ranger than I could write, given character limits. It’s my roots from guild wars 1, and in my eyes there is not a single class remotely similar to cripshot ranger other than d/p trickery thief. It’s why I love d/p trickery so much.

Olba.5376:

The initiative system gets wasted on Thieves because there’s so many weapon sets that have at least 1 skill that is considered useless. When does a power D/D use Death Blossom? When does S/D use Dancing Dagger? When does P/P use Body Shot? The great thing about initiative is that you can use the same skills in a quick repetition, making weapon swapping a choice rather than a necessity.

You’ve absolutely nailed it. Though it’s really anything building X/D rarely uses Dancing Dagger. The skill on almost all levels is just terrible while at least DB has some applications. I love D/D, and I love playing backstab, but I completely agree that two of the five skills on my bar feel far under-used due to their lack of cohesion with the kit or just because they’re down-right weak.

That said, Burr has some points in that initiative does make for some spammy play with only a few skills being used per kit. This is because of two things:

1.) As mentioned, weak skills which due to the initiative pool just drain necessary resources.

2.) Kits with “hybrid” capabilities and the lack of cooldowns make skill choices obvious based upon build. These problems have the most significance in the case of D/D, so let’s examine it closer:

Of the five skills (six with stealth skill), we have the autoattack, Heartseeker, Death Blossom, Dancing Dagger, and Cloak and Dagger, and Backstab.

The auto is a power-scaling auto with some poison access on the last hit of the chain which if traited provides a short weakness application. Nothing worth complaining about here, and it’s regarded as strong in terms of DPS but totally balanced.

Heartseeker is a skill which makes the dagger complete and truly utilizes initiative. Heartseeker is designed to not be spammy (and I believe thresholds should be modified to make it more punishing to spam, but that’s just me) due to the DR on higher-health targets, but it acts as a short-range low-cost leap. It’s a source of damage, an executioning move, a gap opener, and a gap closer. It’s a very powerful skill and used frequently with dagger mainhand, but again, is not inherently overpowered and does not really define builds aside from D/P for its stealth-on-leap through BP.

Death Blossom is a very powerful bleeding application skill due to the base length and number of applied bleeding, but its evade frames are awkward and short, and its reposition uncontrollable and junky. It’s also the only source of real condition damage on D/D.

Dancing Dagger used to be very powerful with the bounce – in fact, it used to deal more damage than backstab if it hit the same target more than once – but it was subsequently nerfed and nerfed again because of it. Now it acts as a high-initative, low-damage, mediocre/short-duration cripple tied to an unpredictable casting range with no honing and a slow travel animation with no synergy to power or condition builds.

Cloak and Dagger: This is what defines dagger offhand. High damage, quick stealth for what can be a very low initiative cost. It acts as an enabler for all of the very powerful stealth skills and leaves a lot of extra room for additional, repeated skill use due to the lack of dependency on expensive combos like using BP + HS for stealth at the cost of putting the user in combat/requiring a nearby target.

Backstab: The nuke of dagger mainhand, it defines entire builds and styles of play. A staple burst skill tailored to those who like playing an assassination-style character, this is an absolutely devastating attack which can be used repeatedly by accessing stealth repeatedly. This is also effectively the standard by which D/X is balanced as a setup.

So when we look at builds, we have:
Power:
– DPS non-stealth versus Stealth-based. Seeing as the auto-chain isn’t enough to build around, 2 punishes repeated use, skills 3 and 4 provide worthless DPS, and CnD is the stealth skill, there’s no effective way to utilize really anything in the kit for out-of-stealth play. For stealth users, you at least get to utilize 1 and 5, where 1 transforms into a very, very powerful nuke and skills 2 3 and 4 can be used on a whim when they find themselves desired.

Condition:
All you have is poison on the auto-attack and Death Blossom. So you’re left just spamming 3 all day, maybe with intermittent other skills due to lack of condition-spec synergy.

So what the problem really is is that we have no real synergy within the weapon kits themselves. Some skills being inherently better than others (and others just being initiative wastes) pigeon-holes a lot of thieves into utilizing only a few options repeatedly. Because a lot of skills are also individually rather weak or do not pertain to the build of the player, the strongest options need to be spammed repeatedly to compensate.

The real problem resolution pretty much lies in removing the “hybrid” effects of the under-used skills or simply just making them slightly stronger or garner additional effects to make them more useful than the same, repeated combos. This will not only make playing a thief more interesting, but would also possibly open up more trait build options and synergies elsewhere. If all of the skill options are viable, then the whole class feels less spammy, and overpowered abilities like Shadow Strike can be nerfed while underpowered ones can be tweaked or reworked to accommodate for more options.

Olba.5376:

A lot of the “issues” with Thieves come from people insisting on playing with Stealth. S/D is popular in sPvP due to the way the mode works against stealth, but outside of that, most people seem to consider Thief synonymous with Stealth. Stealth in turn pigeonholes you into Shadow Arts and stealth skills (Backstab, Sneak Attack, Tactical Strike), which make for repetitive combat.

And stealth fits into this as well. When your best attacks are on stealth attacks, your only real condition cleanse comes from stealth, and the rest of pretty much all of the traits and utilities and weapon skills are not very good, there’s absolutely no reason to be not using stealth. And because as mentioned, some skills work better with stealth, it only makes sense to use those abilities when the rest are bad and drain resources. Frankly, these other abilities are what should define good thieves in that the decision made to perhaps use them over the no-brainer stealth skill should have some merit.

Let’s be actually real here. You are talking specifically about D/D. I cannot agree more and I consider this setup is a 1-trick-pony for the very reasons you mentioned. However not every thief set functions like D/D.

I originally thought the same thing about S/D, it being a 1-trick-pony, but the more I see people like sizer play it, the less I feel that way.

DeceiverX.8361:

The real problem resolution pretty much lies in removing the “hybrid” effects of the under-used skills or simply just making them slightly stronger or garner additional effects to make them more useful than the same, repeated combos. This will not only make playing a thief more interesting, but would also possibly open up more trait build options and synergies elsewhere. If all of the skill options are viable, then the whole class feels less spammy, and overpowered abilities like Shadow Strike can be nerfed while underpowered ones can be tweaked or reworked to accommodate for more options.

This is a concept I can get behind. Especially since I tend to be a heavy P/P fan.
Unfortunately, P/P is pretty much the "red-headed stepchild’ of the Thief kit.
Of course, there’s also Sir Vincent’s idea (assuming I’m remembering rightly) of making P/P and D/D their own 5-skill loadout, since -as things lie currently- any buff or nerf to D/D and/or P/P affects multiple other weapon specs.

Another thing Thief needs, is a proper balance pass on Traps, Traits and underwater skill use. It’s rather ridiculous when you can’t rely on ~half of your utility kit underwater; and it’s also silly that we still have an enforced divide between the usefulness of SA and Acrobatics, in regards to condition clear and self-sustain options.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Let’s be actually real here. You are talking specifically about D/D. I cannot agree more and I consider this setup is a 1-trick-pony for the very reasons you mentioned. However not every thief set functions like D/D.

I originally thought the same thing about S/D, it being a 1-trick-pony, but the more I see people like sizer play it, the less I feel that way.

The sword mainhand sets are one of the few that actually function well as a cohesive kit. On both builds, 1, 2, 3, 5, and S/P all five skills and the stealth skill are all very strong skills when used properly. D/P is the only other example of this, as both pistol builds and D/D are locked into only one real way of dealing with encounters.

When half of the available setups have major problems, the skills need some examining. When every spec running dagger offhand considers Dancing Dagger as ineffective, that’s also skill design flaw.

I’m not saying that these skills need number buffs – far from it, actually, as then we’d need to tone down other things which don’t deserve nerfs to compensate – but I do sincerely believe the effects from these skills/skill designs need to be reworked to make all of the combinations feel as though they’re not one-trick-pony setups.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Let’s be actually real here. You are talking specifically about D/D. I cannot agree more and I consider this setup is a 1-trick-pony for the very reasons you mentioned. However not every thief set functions like D/D.

I originally thought the same thing about S/D, it being a 1-trick-pony, but the more I see people like sizer play it, the less I feel that way.

I have to do a lot to get to my one trick pony – I may be able to spam CnD when fighting a boss, in wvw that’s very different. And actually that’s how I want to play thief. To me S/D is rather boring as there’s not so much thought behind how to hit, when to hit and from where to hit.
Still need to level an ele but from what I have seen only eles and engis have some kind of variety in their “attack chains” every class, every build tries to get their bursts.

Edit: And maybe necros, but they are a mystery to me anyway…

Eles are usually pretty predictable and have many pre-defined rotations, though. I think S/P thief has the most diverse kit where all of the skills feel significant and can individually change the way a fight turns out.

Yeah, but they aren’t as mobile as the other thieves builds.

DeceiverX.8361:

Eles are usually pretty predictable and have many pre-defined rotations, though.

Terrible eles push buttons like that. There are certain timing windows you need to hit if you want to play ele correctly – but this is true for any class.

Ok, lets see:
Mesmer: Spam clones, destroy clones, spam clones
Guard: Aegis, GS 5, GS 4, GS 1, 1, 1, some skill, rinse and repeat
Ranger: LB 2, LB 4, LB 1,1,1, LB 2…
Warrior: Hammer stun stun stun stun stun stun
Thief: Basilisk Venom, burst, steal, dodge, shadow refuge
Engis are too complex to see a pattern only that they always use their elite first. Don’t know too much about eles… and necros, well, my arch enemies.
Looks as if most professions are always the same and all of them use some kind of chain, so I don’t really see why we need another QQ thread as that’s what it is, sorry, no matter how often you say it isn’t.

Jana.6831:

Engis are too complex to see a pattern only that they always use their elite first.

It really isn’t too complex. One of the main builds spike rotation is something like:

Magnet pull, prybar, overcharged shot, rifle 2 (net), throw nades (usually chill), throw wrench.

It doesn’t matter though. If you’re overly predictable, for any class, it can be punished.

This goes for any class: Think with your brain, not with your rotations.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Jana.6831:

Engis are too complex to see a pattern only that they always use their elite first.

It really isn’t too complex. One of the main builds spike rotation is something like:

Magnet pull, prybar, overcharged shot, rifle 2 (net), throw nades (usually chill), throw wrench.

It doesn’t matter though. If you’re overly predictable, for any class, it can be punished.

This goes for any class: Think with your brain, not with your rotations.

Unless they use pistol/shield and a lot of them don’t really work with stuns. I’m not complaining btw. I was just thinking about what the classes I face usually do.

Edit: And the OP is about how poor the thief design is because they don’t use chains.

He’s not referring to a lack of chains but a lack of diversity in options, which I do agree with. This isn’t a flaw so much with the design of the class as much as it is the skills and traits themselves, though.

It’s the same with other classes, no matter which I’m on I never use all weaponskills as there’s always at least one which is situational.

First off op thief only counters full glass (shatter) mesmer, not all mesmer specs. Mesmers built to duel/roam are the strongest kitten things in the game. The reason why you might find vsing other classes fun is mesmer has the advantage.

Also I know lots of people that hate vsing a mesmer.

I don’t have a problem with mesmers actually, but I’m D/D, so the more clones the better.