Guild Wars 2

I see way too many posts about people who want more hard counters to stealth, but that’s not what this game needs. A hard counter to stealth would be a 1-button-to-win skill against a thief. What we need is more counter play to stealth, not hard counters.

I’ve had these ideas for quite some time and I’ve thrown them out in different threads over the last year. I’m posting this now as a thread by itself because I think this needs some attention. If we don’t help Anet with ideas on how to improve it I think they’ll mess up and give us a wrong nerf (by maybe adding more skills that directly counter stealth and thieves in general). So, here it goes.

1. Stealth can’t stack.
At least not stealth from weapon skills and combos. This would fix the number one problem that people have with the thief; dagger/pistol. It’s really the only weapon set that people complain about, and it’s by far the ultimate troll set in this game. Access to stealth on-demand that doesn’t require any skill at all to use? I find it cheesy and unnecessary.

Why I think that stealth shouldn’t stack?
Because it would really force the thief to think twice before wasting initiative on it. It would force d/p thieves to be more tactical about attacking an enemy force. It’s too cheap of a weapon set and it can make the worst thief seem like a hero fighting off a larger force. Which he isn’t., he’s abusing a mechanic to troll other people. It isn’t helping the game or the thief achieve anything other than frustration/feeling of accomplishment.

I don’t want this to apply to stacking stealth using utility skills or heals.
Not even in combination with weapon skill. I feel that this should apply to weapon skills and combos only. This because utility skills should be strong and after using those skills the thief will be very vulnerable and open for attacks. They don’t need a nerf in my opinion.

2. Revealed debuff when leaving stealth.
This is a huge one, and some of you might think I’m crazy, but read it through please. I want the “Revealed” debuff to be applied every time the thief leave stealth, wether he attack or not. This would really, and I mean really, force the thief to be more tactical and think twice before stealthing. We either have to run, or we have to attack.

I think that this would change the mentality of many thieves. We won’t just spam stealth mindlessly or Cloak and Dagger off critters just to heal ourself, we would actually have to think. This would definitely help forcing thieves to become more skillful and would highly increase the skill floor/roof.

3. Cancel channeled attacks
This has bugged me since the beta. When I disappear I find it stupid that AI should still find me and that channeled skills still hit and follow me when I’ve moved. This really need to be fixed.

4. Revert the Revealed change in sPvP
No need to explain. The 4 seconds doesn’t match any AA chains and doesn’t “flow” the same way. It’s a huge change from PvE and WvW and the whole thief doesn’t feel the same in sPvP because of this.

5. Black Powder - proposed by Maugetarr
Make black powder a dark combo field instead of smoke. Change the skill so that the projectile grants stealth if it connects (in the same manner of Rangers Longbow 3 skill).

This would help fix P/P which currently need a boost. It would also grant S/P stealth which would help that set a lot. Changing it to a dark combo field would give P/P access to life leech and whirl finishers would fire leeching bolts.

This is by far the best idea I’ve seen to fix the current issue with D/P and help fixing other weapon sets.

Final words
Keep in mind that these are ideas I’ve acquired during way to many hours on this profession and by reading these forums. I’ve mained thief since beta, and have only touched other professions to learn how to counter them. Because of this I believe I have more than enough knowledge over stealth and the thief to propose these changes.

I’m very open to discuss since this is no more than my opinions. I would love some feedback on these changes from other players – both new players and veterans.

Cheers!

Edit
I temporarily added a strike through to point number 2. It was the least popular change, and after discussing with other thieves and reading this thread I’ve concluded that the change is not needed. I still have it there so people can see it and discuss, but I won’t support the idea any further since you guys have made me realize it’s a bad idea.

I also added a strike through to point number 1. Point number 5 would fix all the problems we have with D/P.

I also added the suggested change to Black Powder.

Thank you to everyone who participates in making this an interesting discussion! The devs need good ideas if they are going to help us.

I agree with all but 2.
We have not a passive heal like warriors, and recently mesmers, so why is it bad to stealth for a bit of healing?
Also how are you gonna remove that fire that just proced on you after the necro’s attacked ctit just when you left stealth? Will you have to wait and burn to death?
And since the biggest problem people have (even me as a condition thief) is backstab after stealth, I would add to your list:
5. Reduce the angle a hit form the side counts as a hit from the back.

Kanenas.4906:

I agree with all but 2.
We have not a passive heal like warriors, and recently mesmers, so why is it bad to stealth for a bit of healing?
Also how are you gonna remove that fire that just proced on you after the necro’s attacked ctit just when you left stealth? Will you have to wait and burn to death?
And since the biggest problem people have (even me as a condition thief) is backstab after stealth, I would add to your list:
5. Reduce the angle a hit form the side counts as a hit from the back.

2 was the one I’m most uncertain about. This is all just ideas and my personal opinions. I’m glad that people disagree, because I want to find something that we thieves and other professions can live with.

Backstab after stealth? I don’t think I’ve ever noticed anything like that. Please explain in more depth what you mean.

Completely agree on your idea of number 5!

1. This would change more than you intend it to. Theves have some great party stealth combos. Smokescreen + blinding powder + clusterbomb + SR can get entire teams past unnecessary fights. Combo stealth is only 3 seconds anyway and not affected by Meld with Shadows.

2. They proposed this a long while ago, playtested it (I would hope), then decided to go with revealed lasting 4 seconds instead because it wouldn’t really solve the problem the way you think it would. This would increase spam. There would be no reason to pull off from a backstab if you couldn’t hit the backside. This would also hurt D/D more than D/P since they couldn’t tactically time a CnD anymore, but D/P could still chain BPS + HS (even if it didn’t stack like you propose).

3. This bugs me too, but I think it’s intended to balance stealth. That’s what makes cloaked in shadow a great utility because it partially covers an inherent weakness of the utility of stealth.

4. This really bugs me as well, and really should be reverted, but I think the logic here is that damage isn’t nearly as high in sPvP so people need a longer time to kill you. This doesn’t take into account how channeled skills follow stealth targets (including leaps and other melee skill) and the (maximum) 33% nerf to thief defenses. It also really messes you up with guild training/sparring for WvW small group and GvG.

1. kitten yes
2. kitten no
3. Very controversial
4. kitten yes
5. kitten no (you dont play bs thief if u offer this, cause landing clean backstab is allready hard enough against ppl that know how to move around. Not even gonna speak about landing backstabs on mesmers, no matter clean or not, but thats a bit off topic).

Maugetarr.6823:

1. This would change more than you intend it to. Theves have some great party stealth combos. Smokescreen + blinding powder + clusterbomb + SR can get entire teams past unnecessary fights. Combo stealth is only 3 seconds anyway and not affected by Meld with Shadows.

2. They proposed this a long while ago, playtested it (I would hope), then decided to go with revealed lasting 4 seconds instead because it wouldn’t really solve the problem the way you think it would. This would increase spam. There would be no reason to pull off from a backstab if you couldn’t hit the backside. This would also hurt D/D more than D/P since they couldn’t tactically time a CnD anymore, but D/P could still chain BPS + HS (even if it didn’t stack like you propose).

3. This bugs me too, but I think it’s intended to balance stealth. That’s what makes cloaked in shadow a great utility because it partially covers an inherent weakness of the utility of stealth.

4. This really bugs me as well, and really should be reverted, but I think the logic here is that damage isn’t nearly as high in sPvP so people need a longer time to kill you. This doesn’t take into account how channeled skills follow stealth targets (including leaps and other melee skill) and the (maximum) 33% nerf to thief defenses. It also really messes you up with guild training/sparring for WvW small group and GvG.

About Nr2… Removing leap finisher from HS would solve the OP issue and still keep the party stealth combos. Lets get real … no one intentionally heartseekers anything but smoke fields.
Edit. That would remove BP+hs combo entirelly. My brain glitch. Alltho i wouldnt mind

@Geiir.7603

Nah, English is not my native language. I mean backstab, hit after stealth. Not backstab after stealth..

Geiir.7603:

1. Stealth can’t stack.
At least not stealth from weapon skills and combos. This would fix the number one problem that people have with the thief; dagger/pistol. It’s really the only weapon set that people complain about, and it’s by far the ultimate troll set in this game. Access to stealth on-demand that doesn’t require any skill at all to use? I find it cheesy and unnecessary.

If the D/P set is the problem, then only fix D/P.

Keep in mind that stealth is not exclusive to Thief alone and any profession who leap through a smoke field will go on stealth.

2. Revealed debuff when leaving stealth.
This is a huge one, and some of you might think I’m crazy, but read it through please. I want the “Revealed” debuff to be applied every time the thief leave stealth, wether he attack or not. This would really, and I mean really, force the thief to be more tactical and think twice before stealthing. We either have to run, or we have to attack.

If this happen, I would like my armor converted to Heavy and have access to buffs like Protection, Aegis, and Regen — else, no deal.

You’re too narrow-minded in your views on why Thieves have stealth.

3. Cancel channeled attacks
This has bugged me since the beta. When I disappear I find it stupid that AI should still find me and that channeled skills still hit and follow me when I’ve moved. This really need to be fixed.

I don’t have a problem with this. If you look at the big picture, you might think that Unload should be canceled, I agree since it requires visual target, but what about Arc Lightning and Life Siphon? Once these skill connects, it doesn’t really matter if you’re stealth or not.

4. Revert the Revealed change in sPvP
No need to explain. The 4 seconds doesn’t match any AA chains and doesn’t “flow” the same way. It’s a huge change from PvE and WvW and the whole thief doesn’t feel the same in sPvP because of this.

4s never bothered me since we have shadowstep, steal, and blind. The issue with sPvP is that some profession can build tanky and still deal a lot of damage.

Karolis.4261:

About Nr2… Removing leap finisher from HS would solve the OP issue and still keep the party stealth combos. Lets get real … no one intentionally heartseekers anything but smoke fields.
Edit. That would remove BP+hs combo entirelly. My brain glitch. Alltho i wouldnt mind

…but I heartseeker throw gunk, fire fields, poison fields, and water fields all the time! Poison fields are one of my favorites lately. Drop chocking gas from SB, switch to D/X and heartseeker 2-3 times for a pretty good counter to regen warriors (due to poison and weakness stacking).

Maugetarr.6823:

Karolis.4261:

About Nr2… Removing leap finisher from HS would solve the OP issue and still keep the party stealth combos. Lets get real … no one intentionally heartseekers anything but smoke fields.
Edit. That would remove BP+hs combo entirelly. My brain glitch. Alltho i wouldnt mind

…but I heartseeker throw gunk, fire fields, poison fields, and water fields all the time! Poison fields are one of my favorites lately. Drop chocking gas from SB, switch to D/X and heartseeker 2-3 times for a pretty good counter to regen warriors (due to poison and weakness stacking).

Im biased here. I hate d/p and i hate hs since all this is/was the source of ongoing qq and nerfs into oblivion. Oh and i would think rly hard before wasting 9 initiative on HS when fighting a warrior.

Karolis.4261:

Maugetarr.6823:

Karolis.4261:

About Nr2… Removing leap finisher from HS would solve the OP issue and still keep the party stealth combos. Lets get real … no one intentionally heartseekers anything but smoke fields.
Edit. That would remove BP+hs combo entirelly. My brain glitch. Alltho i wouldnt mind

…but I heartseeker throw gunk, fire fields, poison fields, and water fields all the time! Poison fields are one of my favorites lately. Drop chocking gas from SB, switch to D/X and heartseeker 2-3 times for a pretty good counter to regen warriors (due to poison and weakness stacking).

Im biased here. I hate d/p and i hate hs since all this is/was the source of ongoing qq and nerfs into oblivion. Oh and i would think rly hard before wasting 9 initiative on HS when fighting a warrior.

It’s actually more than 9 ‘cause you need to put down choking gas… but it’s a tactic against heavy (and I mean HEAVY) regen wars that reduces their damage output by about 25%, their healing by 33%, their endurance regeneration, and overall puts them on the defensive. You do need to have a pretty good level of endurance just in case they follow up, but it’s sort of a pro-active defensive/offensive strategy. It’s only advised for those guys that you just cant seem to crack. It’s a pretty long lasting stack of weakness from that too.

Alternatively, you can chocking gas (poison), heartseeker through the gas (single target weakness), Blinding Powder (possible ini gain, AoE weakness + blind), backstab, and then heartseeker again if the field is still there which can sometimes flip the entire course of the fight with the weakness and pressure you just put out.

Anyway, just saying I really don’t want the leap finisher removed from HS. They would probably change the smoke field to a dark field and make the projectile hit cause stealth (like ranger LB) if they really wanted to nerf it.

Stealth doesn’t need to be “fixed”.

Glad to see I got some discussion going here!

As I said, number 2 is the one I’m not completely sure about, but I’ve seen the idea in the forums a few times and I’ve given it some thought. It would hurt us a lot, but it would also heighten our skill floor/roof. It would really force us to be more tactical and not just spam stealth. But since we have the Shadow Arts trait line I think it would be to hard to implement it.

Maugetarr
1. This is why we need to separate WvW, sPvP and WvW balance. They can’t balance for all three parts of the game, it’s just not doable… It would fix d/p by denying stealth stacking by using combo field and finishers. It’s really the only big one that we need to balance that weapon set.

Dahkeus
It need some sort of tweak to work. People complain too much, and it’s really only about d/p stealth.

I don’t think they should remove the leap finisher from heartseeker, because it’s the only thing that’s making d/p a good duelist set. It would still be strong if we denied it stealth stacking, but not cheesy ^^

No one really has an issue with stealth in PvP. The reason is that it is more of a liability than an asset. You can’t cap a point with it, and you can’t defend a point with it. Watch the videos of the top D/P thieves and you’ll see what I mean.

The complaints on stealth mostly come from WvW. The reality there is that a lot of those people are out of place trying to run to commanders and so forth and are easy pickings, stealth or no stealth. Also, let’s be honest here. The new condi mesmer specs stealth more than every thief spec with the potential exception of D/P.

I disagree with all except 2.

IMHO it always seems a little dumb to me to punish every build just because D/P has strong access to stealth. Lets be serious for a second. When roaming people get kittened when they can’t land a kill. Us ranger, eles, guardians, mesmers, warriors, and engineers all have access to skills that will allow us to run when roaming. The funny thing is even if stealth got nerfed in the way you pretty much describe roaming builds will still out run zerging builds.

More anti stealth skills are not really an issue as long as classes that have issue with stealth get access to it. In reality that is really only ranger. Every other class despite their whining have effective measure to stop a thief from entering melee range undisrupted.

So what is the real issue? Chase. Players do not like builds that can disengage. They pay special attention to stealth. However, in truth from meditation guardian to un targeted sword ranger there are so many builds good for running it really is impractical to assume that nerfing stealth = thief can not disengage. If you run S/P + SB in WvW you would understand that if you equip roll for initiative and/or shadow step stealth you likely out run another player with ease.

there is no real issue with stealth but with the perception that stealth should be nerfed solely for the sake of one build. Perma stealth players are literally doing nothing.

The perception that the strongest thing about D/P is the stealth vs it’s unparalleled capability to stick to a target is why sometimes I wonder who is really playing this game.

TL;DR
Let me make this perfectly clear. This isn’t a balance issue in PvE, nor Spvp, nor zergs in WvW. This relates to one thing and one thing only roaming. The main thing this change would effect is our group support.

Dahkeus.8243:

Stealth doesn’t need to be “fixed”.

I agree with you, but there are still people saying that thief is uncounterable because of stealth. Most of those complaints stem from D/P stacking because if you tell people that all you have to do is dodge CnD for X/D thieves people can’t really counter argue since their first point is that thief should only have access to long CD stealth (utility stealth). The argument then comes down to their inability to dodge a key attack.

We keep talking about this though because it seems that eventually everything that gets complained about on the thief does get nerfed.

I like the idea of changing BPS to a dark field and having the projectile hit cause stealth. You can then argue that people can dodge the key attack (same as with X/D) and it buffs S/P and P/P. With P/P especially, you get a bunch of possible life leeching attacks making up for its lack of evasion frames and mobility. All the counterplay that it would require is someone dodging the BPS, which is recognizable with its black shot and field creation. Since lifeleech recently was made to scale slightly better with power, It would be a real asset.

This would allow for the utility “Smokescreen” to remain untouched since the devs said they are fine with long stealth using utilities. It would also allow HS to keep its leap finisher for use with smokescreen.

Maugetarr.6823:

I like the idea of changing BPS to a dark field and having the projectile hit cause stealth. You can then argue that people can dodge the key attack (same as with X/D) and it buffs S/P and P/P. With P/P especially, you get a bunch of possible life leeching attacks making up for its lack of evasion frames and mobility. All the counterplay that it would require is someone dodging the BPS, which is recognizable with its black shot and field creation. Since lifeleech recently was made to scale slightly better with power, It would be a real asset.

This would allow for the utility “Smokescreen” to remain untouched since the devs said they are fine with long stealth using utilities. It would also allow HS to keep its leap finisher for use with smokescreen.

I have to ask why would they nerf our best melee group support skill vs trash our anything not a champ? For S/P this would be a major nerf. And once again for the sake of D/P. What confuses me the most is the assumption that a stealth which cost 9 initiative at base should be a catalyst for nerfs for builds that rarely use stealth. Life leach will not make up for evade frames we are not hardy enough for that. We can not sit there and soak up DPS while regenerating. The class simply was not built that way.

I will ask again outside WvW roaming what would be the point of nerfing D/P?

Edit:
Read carefully. Our best access and pretty much only access to condi management vs damaging conditions builds is stealth. Pain response’s cd is too long and doesn’t proc to torment (our biggest killer). If you remove Stealth from DP the entire set would have to be reworked to give it some sort of management skill. It would also be a main hand dagger power build with no access to backstab ie pointless.

I get kittened because we keep reading thread after thread where people toss kitten at the wall (not just here everywhere) and do not consider the ramifications while begging for nerfs. D/P has no place in PvE. It barely has a place in Spvp and the only place it is really is good is in WvW roaming. The idea that the set should be gutted when WvW meta doesn’t even allow it to be a good zerging weapon is just beyond my understanding of logical balance.

Maugetarr.6823:

Dahkeus.8243:

Stealth doesn’t need to be “fixed”.

I agree with you, but there are still people saying that thief is uncounterable because of stealth. Most of those complaints stem from D/P stacking because if you tell people that all you have to do is dodge CnD for X/D thieves people can’t really counter argue since their first point is that thief should only have access to long CD stealth (utility stealth). The argument then comes down to their inability to dodge a key attack.

We keep talking about this though because it seems that eventually everything that gets complained about on the thief does get nerfed.

I like the idea of changing BPS to a dark field and having the projectile hit cause stealth. You can then argue that people can dodge the key attack (same as with X/D) and it buffs S/P and P/P. With P/P especially, you get a bunch of possible life leeching attacks making up for its lack of evasion frames and mobility. All the counterplay that it would require is someone dodging the BPS, which is recognizable with its black shot and field creation. Since lifeleech recently was made to scale slightly better with power, It would be a real asset.

This would allow for the utility “Smokescreen” to remain untouched since the devs said they are fine with long stealth using utilities. It would also allow HS to keep its leap finisher for use with smokescreen.

U mean black powder + projectile finisher like shadow shot or head shot or its own physical projectile hit ? In second case i see p/p becoming new p/d with much safer ranged access to stealth and health leach every sneak attack. In first case i see it becoming very messy with auto attacks and unloads randomly putting u in stealth and in case of unload revealing u instantly.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If the D/P set is the problem, then only fix D/P.

^ This.

Changing Heartseeker so that it is no longer a leap finisher (make it a teleport-to-target, for example) would go a long way to fixing most of the problems with stealth, at least in terms of how powerful it is. The only spammable finisher left to stealth with would be shortbow 2, and blackpowder-weapon swap isn’t something a thief really wants to be doing in combat (however, it would still allow a thief to stack stealth out of combat to set up an opener, which personally I think is fine.)

That change would negate the need for a revealed debuff after leaving stealth I feel, as the ease of entering stealth in combat would be much more limited. Personally I don’t have an issue with thieves wanting to play a build based heavily around stealthing, but I do feel it’s current incarnation is a bit too powerful.

As for your suggested #3 and #4… yeah, both make sense. #4 is a bit iffier because sPvP is intended to be more competitive than WvW, and making thieves really have to keep the revealed debuff in mind runs in line with the more competitive mindset. I completely agree with stealth breaking channels, however. If stealth becomes harder to re-enter in combat, then the counter-play of using channeled abilities against thieves become less necessary.

Geiir.7603:

I see way too many posts about people who want more hard counters to stealth, but that’s not what this game need. A hard counter to stealth would be a 1-button-to-win skill against a thief. What we need to do is to change stealth so it forces the thief player to be more tactical about entering stealth, and not just spam it mindlessly.

I’ve had these ideas for quite some time and I’ve thrown them out in different threads over the last year. I’m posting this now as a thread by itself because I think this need some attention. If we don’t help Anet with ideas on how to improve it I think they’ll mess up and give us a wrong nerf (by maybe adding more skill that directly counter stealth and thieves in general). So, here it goes.

1. Stealth can’t stack.
At least not stealth from weapon skills and combos. This would fix the number one problem that people have with the thief; dagger/pistol. It’s really the only weapon set that people complain about, and it’s by far the ultimate troll set in this game. Access to stealth on-demand that doesn’t require any skill at all to use? I find it cheesy and unnecessary.

Why I think that stealth shouldn’t stack?
Because it would really force the thief to think twice before wasting initiative on it. It would force d/p thieves to be more tactical about attacking an enemy force. It’s too cheap of a weapon set and it can make the worst thief seem like a hero fighting off a larger force. Which he isn’t., he’s abusing a mechanic to troll other people. It isn’t helping the game or the thief achieve anything other than frustration/feeling of accomplishment.

I don’t want this to apply to stacking stealth using utility skills or heals.
Not even in combination with weapon skill. I feel that this should apply to weapon skills and combos only. This because utility skills should be strong and after using those skills the thief will be very vulnerable and open for attacks. They don’t need a nerf in my opinion.

2. Revealed debuff when leaving stealth.
This is a huge one, and some of you might think I’m crazy, but read it through please. I want the “Revealed” debuff to be applied every time the thief leave stealth, wether he attack or not. This would really, and I mean really, force the thief to be more tactical and think twice before stealthing. We either have to run, or we have to attack.

I think that this would change the mentality of many thieves. We won’t just spam stealth mindlessly or Cloak and Dagger off critters just to heal ourself, we would actually have to think. This would definitely help forcing thieves to become more skillful and would highly increase the skill floor/roof.

Cheers!

I half agree with you on number 1: I think I should be able to stack stealth using Utilities but not through weaponskills. That way if people want to CnD or BP/HS then use blinding powder, SR or HiS then thats fine, it should stack. But maybe making BP/HS not able to stack could fix the problem.

2. Absolutely not. Arena net were going to implement this a while back and decided it was a stupid idea and didn’t, thankfully. Its tactical to use CnD to re stealth instead of attacking. Because it actually makes us think, do we bide our time or do we attack. With this idea, it makes me think, ohh i better run now as i can’t re stealth and recalculate and will just make thieves feel very limited in battle. This is a really stupid idea.

Derren.8724:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

If the D/P set is the problem, then only fix D/P.

^ This.

Changing Heartseeker so that it is no longer a leap finisher (make it a teleport-to-target, for example) would go a long way to fixing most of the problems with stealth, at least in terms of how powerful it is. The only spammable finisher left to stealth with would be shortbow 2, and blackpowder-weapon swap isn’t something a thief really wants to be doing in combat (however, it would still allow a thief to stack stealth out of combat to set up an opener, which personally I think is fine.)

That change would negate the need for a revealed debuff after leaving stealth I feel, as the ease of entering stealth in combat would be much more limited. Personally I don’t have an issue with thieves wanting to play a build based heavily around stealthing, but I do feel it’s current incarnation is a bit too powerful.

As for your suggested #3 and #4… yeah, both make sense. #4 is a bit iffier because sPvP is intended to be more competitive than WvW, and making thieves really have to keep the revealed debuff in mind runs in line with the more competitive mindset. I completely agree with stealth breaking channels, however. If stealth becomes harder to re-enter in combat, then the counter-play of using channeled abilities against thieves become less necessary.

I cant believe that ppl still go with my stupid idea caused by a BRAIN CRASH (I have those time to time) to remove leap finisher from HS. This would completely deny d/p access to stealth, not to mention leaping through other fields ( which i dont do, cause it simply doesnt work with my build/playstyle but w/e).

Honestly the only things I agree with you on are 3 and 4.. 3 being actually broken one and 4 just being stupid.

Other than that, you can’t “mindlessly” use stealth and win at anything so I don’t know why so many people have this impression. It’s been covered before that stealth is our primary defence.

Look at the guardians that build tank.. they have 2 methods of healing themselves, one of which is a constant “invulnerability” until the heal pops, and the other is a constant block while healing. Thief can’t even interrupt it. They’re a pain in the kitten to fight but does anyone go “waah perma protection/perma heal/perma block”?

Thief doesn’t get that, or even stability… we have stealth. It either needs to stack or the durations need to increase.

D/P is also not broken. It needs a weaponset ability to stealth because if it had none there would be no point in having a mainhand dagger if you needed to use utilities to stealth (backstab would be a nonexistent part of the build).

Why do ppl keep “trying” to “FIX” stealth?!

Flash news!! you CANT fix something that ISN’T broken…

Volrath.1473:

Why do ppl keep “trying” to “FIX” stealth?!

Flash news!! you CANT fix something that ISN’T broken…

Last refuge is broken. Fix last refuge or just remove it and leave empty spot.

BFMV
I believe I said that I doesn’t want it to stack using weapon skills and combos, which means that it should be able to stack using utilities. I wrote that too

Sir Kaboomski
Yes. Everyone can build tanky and survive. Thieves need to be able to stay alive, and we have a ton of tools to do so. The problem is that we are able to go full berserker and still be able to run from every single fight we want to. All of us agree that any good thief will rarely die? Is that because there’s no good players on other professions, or is it because we have a mechanic that give us the ability to disengage at will? I believe the latter, because 9/10 thieves I see are horrible players that doesn’t know how to do anything – yet these guys survive because they can just chain stealth with bp+hs and gtfo.

Warriors can also run away (usain bolt reference in the wvw forums….), and people complain about them too. Guess they’ll get their nerf in a few patches… I honestly think it’s unfair that we can survive, even after we blew all our utilities, heals and elites away, just because we can chain bp+hs. There’s absolutely no risk but a high reward for doing so, and that’s wrong.

Chaining with utility skills is another story, because you’re sacrificing those utility slots to be able to do so. That’s why I think that’s fine.

Maugetarr
Yes. You understood why we need to discuss this. If we doesn’t want to help the devs, I fear that they’ll do something worse and destroy the entire stealth mechanic as we know it.

Guys, please understand that I don’t want to necessarily nerf stealth. To start with I would like to see d/p get a little pain, because that weapon set is way too easy as it is now…

How to fix stealth: Learn how to spot a thief using shadowstep (there is an indicator below his healthbar). Stand on return circle. Have someone pressure said thief (a warrior with pindown can sit on circle and fire away at the thief, even). Wait for him to port back. Cleave his face. If he infiltrator arrows away, then he can’t have easy access to stealth outside of utility cooldowns so smash his face.

How to fix heartseeker spam: Interrupt the first heartseeker, or attack the area he heartseekered to, or aoe cleave the area around blackpowder, or stand in the blackpowder circle and he might hit you with heartseeker revealing him.

At the very least: Use some type of block/area blind/etc. when the thief is in stealth, when you see the block pop up or the blind miss pop up, immediately about face and smash the face of the thief. You will get a face stab of about 2 – 3k (extremely manageable) damage, but the thief will be in melee range and revealed so smash his face.

Overall: have better situational awareness.

In other words, don’t be bad.

No

Op, i like your ideas.

Seriously i do.

I believe it would be a great start, before Arena.net redesign thief class. In fact, your ideas would greatly help make a huge contribution in their overall redesign.

I wish you were given the position to be The Lead Programmer and Designer for thief class; to put a final end to their I AM GOD class design, once and for all.

And as a Forsaken Ranger, it would give us more reason to feel alive and loved again.

How would you beat a decent mesmer when 2 would be the case?

@TheGuy and Karolis

I don’t think I have explained my idea clearly. What I want to do is not remove the field produced by BPS, but change it to a dark filed. This way, instead of gaining stealth when you leap through it, you get blindness, projectile finishers get lifesteal, and whirl finishers get leeching bolts. This would essentially make BPS into a small well of darkness (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Darkness) that lasts 1 second shorter. What would trigger the stealth is the BPS projectile succesfully connecting with the opponent like ranger’s Hunter’s Shot (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hunter%27s_Shot). Because it has to successfully connect, this would mean that X/P could have their stealth counterplayed like dodging CnD. It would not nerf S/P, but actually give it access to stealth. This would also give P/P a slight boost since it would have access to stealth, thus sneak attack, and it could shoot through the dark field it just laid down to get lifesteal shots. Again, the skill that gives stealth to X/P would be blockable/dodgeable/reflectable instead of having to interrupt the leap through the smoke field on D/P the way it currently is.

@Karolis
Yest, this might make P/P the new P/D, but keep in mind it wouldn’t have access to torment, and using BPS at range may be safer, but the recognizeable animation (smokey projectile, dropping of a field) would make it more easily counterplayable at range, meaning that you still have to get relatively close. You’re right though, it would be a boost to P/P which needs a boost in some way. Instead of just 333333, you could use BPS then either 1 (sneak attack) or if they dodge, unload through the field and have 8X20% chance of projectile finishers. It would give you a reason to use more of the skills on P/P. It would also give both S/P and P/P access to the SA line increasing build diversity.

Edit: The whole idea of this is to increase counterplay and make it so that you would have to land the shot on a target similar to landing a CnD properly. You could no longer start to run, fire BPS, and leap through it 3 or 4 times and then continue to run.

Maugetarr
That’s the best idea I’ve seen in a long time! It could actually work too. It would add way more counter play and it would be a nice buff to S/P and P/P.

If this gets enough attention I’ll add it in the OP and see what people think. So far I looks like 2 is the most hated, and after reading the discussions here I can see why it won’t work, so I’ll scratch that from the list ^^

I edited the original post! Please read it again guys!

:)

Burnfall.9573:

…
And as a Forsaken Ranger, it would give us more reason to feel alive and loved again.

Ha! We now know his motives…
He’s having a hard time on his ranger against thieves.

Geiir.7603:

Maugetarr
That’s the best idea I’ve seen in a long time! It could actually work too. It would add way more counter play and it would be a nice buff to S/P and P/P.

If this gets enough attention I’ll add it in the OP and see what people think. So far I looks like 2 is the most hated, and after reading the discussions here I can see why it won’t work, so I’ll scratch that from the list ^^

Op, what are you doing? I had fully supported you?

Geiir.7603:

Maugetarr
That’s the best idea I’ve seen in a long time! It could actually work too. It would add way more counter play and it would be a nice buff to S/P and P/P.

If this gets enough attention I’ll add it in the OP and see what people think. So far I looks like 2 is the most hated, and after reading the discussions here I can see why it won’t work, so I’ll scratch that from the list ^^

Thank you. If the discussion keeps going, maybe we should put the edited list in the profession balance subforum (and alao include a link to this original discussion). It seems like that forum gets more traffic (or at least comments) from the devs.

Geiir.7603:

BFMV
I believe I said that I doesn’t want it to stack using weapon skills and combos, which means that it should be able to stack using utilities. I wrote that too

Sir Kaboomski
Yes. Everyone can build tanky and survive. Thieves need to be able to stay alive, and we have a ton of tools to do so. The problem is that we are able to go full berserker and still be able to run from every single fight we want to. All of us agree that any good thief will rarely die? Is that because there’s no good players on other professions, or is it because we have a mechanic that give us the ability to disengage at will? I believe the latter, because 9/10 thieves I see are horrible players that doesn’t know how to do anything – yet these guys survive because they can just chain stealth with bp+hs and gtfo.

Warriors can also run away (usain bolt reference in the wvw forums….), and people complain about them too. Guess they’ll get their nerf in a few patches… I honestly think it’s unfair that we can survive, even after we blew all our utilities, heals and elites away, just because we can chain bp+hs. There’s absolutely no risk but a high reward for doing so, and that’s wrong.

Chaining with utility skills is another story, because you’re sacrificing those utility slots to be able to do so. That’s why I think that’s fine.

Maugetarr

But what you don’t understand is a backstab build needs an on-demand access to stealth without blowing utilities. Being able to backstab ONLY when blinding powder/shadow refuge is off cooldown would be completely unacceptable and there would be no point in the build. Not to mention that people can ping pong you out of shadow refuge anyways so it would be pointless to set up a backstab using SR.

Also, saying that we can go full zerk and disengage at will is also incorrect. We have extremely low HP, and chances are if we try to disengage by stealthing, we get channeled (something you mentioned in your OP) and die anyways.

Look at something like a full zerk power/deathshroud necro. I got rolled by one last night because all he had to do was lich form and then 1,1,1,1, 6k hit every time. Necro is at the top tier HP pool in the game plus they get deathshroud to cushion them with about +70% HP on top of what they already have. They suck, and I suck at fighting them, and it sucks that their 1,1,1,1 still channels when I stealth, and that life transfer can AOE me while stealthed anyways (but we all know AOE works anyway and it is intended), so I can not usually escape from them and I’m not a full glass build, but you can’t win em all.

You can’t, and you won’t.

I get what you’re saying to some degree, but any changes to stealth to “fix” it for the benefit of people that are sad because they don’t automatically get a bag will just kitten us over even more. Thieves, due to their low HP/armor, are supposed to be evasive. There are tactics to fighting every class. If you expect to just facetank a thief without moving or CC’ing them then chances are you aren’t going to win (unless you are a power necro lol, or a really high burst build). Just like my thief build can’t insta-kill or facetank anyone (except the elementalists from TUNE lol) ;P

Zero Day.2594:

Burnfall.9573:

…
And as a Forsaken Ranger, it would give us more reason to feel alive and loved again.

Ha! We now know his motives…
He’s having a hard time on his ranger against thieves.

1 year and 5 months+ , yes

I don’t mind you being happy, seriously i don’t

Each time i get killed by thieves, they would always dance on my innocent body

even my pet laughs at me. What’s the point of getting angry?

Burnfall.9573:

Zero Day.2594:

Burnfall.9573:

…
And as a Forsaken Ranger, it would give us more reason to feel alive and loved again.

Ha! We now know his motives…
He’s having a hard time on his ranger against thieves.

1 year and 5 months+ , yes

I don’t mind you being happy, seriously i don’t

Each time i get killed by thieves, they would always dance on my innocent body

even my pet laughs at me. What’s the point of getting angry?

So you would agree that, the changes you propose and support stem from the fact you yourself are having a hard time against a thief? And you assume others are too (and yeah some are, don’t get me wrong, you’re not a lone)? So what motivates you to be so vocal about thief nerf/changes/re-designs is to ease your game play and presumably others like you out there as well?

Zero Day.2594:

Burnfall.9573:

Zero Day.2594:

Burnfall.9573:

…
And as a Forsaken Ranger, it would give us more reason to feel alive and loved again.

Ha! We now know his motives…
He’s having a hard time on his ranger against thieves.

1 year and 5 months+ , yes

I don’t mind you being happy, seriously i don’t

Each time i get killed by thieves, they would always dance on my innocent body

even my pet laughs at me. What’s the point of getting angry?

So you would agree that, the changes you propose and support stem from the fact you yourself are having a hard time against a thief? And you assume others are too (and yeah some are, don’t get me wrong, you’re not a lone)? So what motivates you to be so vocal about thief nerf/changes/re-designs is to ease your game play and presumably others like you out there as well?

very much yes. I mean, i don’t want to feel cheap game play but challenging. The ranger class is the only class in the game that is forced to work 10X more when fighting thieves, and that’s not right at all.

I’m sure you understand that Arena.net plan all along to make us Rangers be easily killed by thieves.

The Truth is there; they nerfed our pets damage and range including our won mobility.

Why wouldn’t any thief take full advantage of that?

Burnfall.9573:

Zero Day.2594:

Burnfall.9573:

Zero Day.2594:

Burnfall.9573:

…
And as a Forsaken Ranger, it would give us more reason to feel alive and loved again.

Ha! We now know his motives…
He’s having a hard time on his ranger against thieves.

1 year and 5 months+ , yes

I don’t mind you being happy, seriously i don’t

Each time i get killed by thieves, they would always dance on my innocent body

even my pet laughs at me. What’s the point of getting angry?

So you would agree that, the changes you propose and support stem from the fact you yourself are having a hard time against a thief? And you assume others are too (and yeah some are, don’t get me wrong, you’re not a lone)? So what motivates you to be so vocal about thief nerf/changes/re-designs is to ease your game play and presumably others like you out there as well?

very much yes. I mean, i don’t want to feel cheap game play but challenging. The ranger class is the only class in the game that is forced to work 10X more when fighting thieves, and that’s not right at all.

So really, in the end, it’s not about balancing the game as a whole, it’s balancing the game around you (and like minded people) and what you considering “challenging”? Is there any consideration about the thief players? Or should we just consider non-thief players?

(Sorry for hijacking the topic xD )

Zero Day.2594:

Burnfall.9573:

Zero Day.2594:

Burnfall.9573:

Zero Day.2594:

Burnfall.9573:

…
And as a Forsaken Ranger, it would give us more reason to feel alive and loved again.

Ha! We now know his motives…
He’s having a hard time on his ranger against thieves.

1 year and 5 months+ , yes

I don’t mind you being happy, seriously i don’t

Each time i get killed by thieves, they would always dance on my innocent body

even my pet laughs at me. What’s the point of getting angry?

So you would agree that, the changes you propose and support stem from the fact you yourself are having a hard time against a thief? And you assume others are too (and yeah some are, don’t get me wrong, you’re not a lone)? So what motivates you to be so vocal about thief nerf/changes/re-designs is to ease your game play and presumably others like you out there as well?

very much yes. I mean, i don’t want to feel cheap game play but challenging. The ranger class is the only class in the game that is forced to work 10X more when fighting thieves, and that’s not right at all.

So really, in the end, it’s not about balancing the game as a whole, it’s balancing the game around you (and like minded people) and what you considering “challenging”? Is there any consideration about the thief players? Or should we just consider non-thief players?

You took advantage of me

i thought you were the good guy, now you’re turning against me?

Sir Kaboomski
Pleide read my edits on the original post. As you can see I’ve changed some of my opinions after getting some feedback and discussed a bit with you guys.

I actually think what would fix this would be the proposed change to black powder.

As it stands today I rarely die. I can disengage pretty much at will. If I die it’s usually because I got too greedy. Our ability to disengage a fight at will, which I 90% of the times can, is just too easy – no counter play when playing d/p to stop stealth…

Geiir.7603:

5. Black Powder - proposed by Maugetarr
Make black powder a dark combo field instead of smoke. Change the skill so that the projectile grants stealth if it connects (in the same manner of Rangers Longbow 3 skill).

This would help fix P/P which currently need a boost. It would also grant S/P stealth which would help that set a lot. Changing it to a dark combo field would give P/P access to life leech and whirl finishers would fire leeching bolts.

This is by far the best idea I’ve seen to fix the current issue with D/P and help fixing other weapon sets.

No thank you. I like how my Unload applies Blind through Black Powder. If I really want heal using P/P, I’d bring SoM.

-1

Burnfall.9573:

Zero Day.2594:

Burnfall.9573:

Zero Day.2594:

Burnfall.9573:

Zero Day.2594:

Burnfall.9573:

…
And as a Forsaken Ranger, it would give us more reason to feel alive and loved again.

Ha! We now know his motives…
He’s having a hard time on his ranger against thieves.

1 year and 5 months+ , yes

I don’t mind you being happy, seriously i don’t

Each time i get killed by thieves, they would always dance on my innocent body

even my pet laughs at me. What’s the point of getting angry?

So you would agree that, the changes you propose and support stem from the fact you yourself are having a hard time against a thief? And you assume others are too (and yeah some are, don’t get me wrong, you’re not a lone)? So what motivates you to be so vocal about thief nerf/changes/re-designs is to ease your game play and presumably others like you out there as well?

very much yes. I mean, i don’t want to feel cheap game play but challenging. The ranger class is the only class in the game that is forced to work 10X more when fighting thieves, and that’s not right at all.

So really, in the end, it’s not about balancing the game as a whole, it’s balancing the game around you (and like minded people) and what you considering “challenging”? Is there any consideration about the thief players? Or should we just consider non-thief players?

You took advantage of me

i thought you were the good guy, now you’re turning against me?

It’s in the name.

Hey, don’t get me wrong, you’re still cool and you have awesome posts…
Just yeah, we’re not exactly on the same side (don’t know if you knew that or not…)… I’m a bit more about balance (with slight bias towards thieves…), while I agree there should be some countermeasure to stealth (for instance every class having a force reveal of some sort), I would also like thieves to have more survivability going in toe-to-toe combat (without stealth, and/or when the countermeasures take place) and also more roles in WvW aside from roaming (and hopefully this will open up builds/roles in PvE too)… Rangers working x10 harder, well not sure how many times, but they do seem to need a buff, at least from what I can gather (same kitten is happening with rangers as with thieves), and if they do get a buff, great! What I hate and despise is, people that can’t adapt against an opponent and are waiting for a nerf or a change… Before the hammer warriors got nerfed, I was get rolled in sPvP by them if i would get caught in their stun.. All i thought was “kitten, these guys are strong, I will die if i get caught… gotta rethink before i engage one of them, might be better to do something else”… I realized and accepted that I would most likely not win against one but instead of going to the warriors forum and QQ’ing, i just ignored them and made decisions to avoid them in combat… carried on happly… (and surprisingly they were nerfed a bit Dec10)… When I engage in a zerg v zerg and die to all the conditions, stuns, and kitten… I don’t go and say “kitten IT, WARRIORS OP NERF NEXT PATCH PLEASE” or “NECROS TOO MUCH AOE NERF NEXT PATCH PLEASE”… I hope instead that there would be a buff to thieves so they could be a bit more robust (not kittening invulnerable superman) in zerg v zerg engagments, so that we could have another role besides roaming and standing on walls… But while hoping i still modify what I do in zerg v zerg engagements, instead i try to play a bit safer, or i try to clean up after the zerg… Regarding thief nerfs, yeah sure we can adapt into something else each time they hit us, but it’s anouying and rather painfull being hit each time… It’s not so much as “good thieves will always find a way to adapt and play” (w/e sundalesk said and keeps saying) it’s more like everyone can do that, some just have less tolerance to being hit all the kitten time (having high tolerance isn’t a good thing either, it’s neither) and still attempting to play with a smile. (There’s a magnitude of this that should be fixed/done to the thief, I can’t capture them all in this post (or retain them in my head). Personally, I don’t have any nerf requests for any class).

TL/DR: You’re lazy since you didn’t read what’s above.

Honestly, decreasing the amount of stealth leap finishers through blind fields give by 1 second would fix D/P.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Geiir.7603:

5. Black Powder - proposed by Maugetarr
Make black powder a dark combo field instead of smoke. Change the skill so that the projectile grants stealth if it connects (in the same manner of Rangers Longbow 3 skill).

This would help fix P/P which currently need a boost. It would also grant S/P stealth which would help that set a lot. Changing it to a dark combo field would give P/P access to life leech and whirl finishers would fire leeching bolts.

This is by far the best idea I’ve seen to fix the current issue with D/P and help fixing other weapon sets.

No thank you. I like how my Unload applies Blind through Black Powder. If I really want heal using P/P, I’d bring SoM.

-1

You’re saying this from a PvE perspective, right? If so then most fights are pretty stationary and you could drop the field on top of the mob instead of from range. Or you could bring smoke screen for an even longer blind field.

The best thing would be to separate PvP, WvW and PvE balance, but since that isn’t going to happen we have to see where it’s most needed…