Guild Wars 2

So, its without question that our class sorely needed SOME form of block/reposite type skill added, and while this one’s duration is only a single second it is a step in the right direction.

The only issue with the ability is that after you throw up your arms to block the incoming attack, you open back up to continue taking damage in the time between the block and the retaliatory kick to the face.

This mean that the block is essentially useless against quick multi-hit attacks like the Warriors GS #3 skill, preventing any sort of tactical or careful use for the ability. This is compounded if you manage to get stunned or knocked down during this same window.

I think a relatively simple tweak is in order to bring this skill up to par, and that is simply adding a minuscule evade time between the attack that you block, up until the kick connects with the enemy. Because really what is the point of kicking your enemy to interrupt their attack when the attack has already killed you before you can swing your big Chuck Norris leg into their chest?

Thank you for your consideration.

You’re missing the point of the skill. It’s not meant to be a purely defensive ability, while it has a break stun and a short block, it’s for utility purposes. It helps set up burst, extra CC, or just knocks them down for a couple seconds so you can buy time. While it has a defensive capability, that’s not the point of the skill. It really doesn’t need changed.

Are you seriously suggesting that a point blank reactionary skill that is activated by being struck is NOT defensive in nature, and is instead used for setup?

And besides that point, I’m not even suggesting that it is. What I’m saying is that the point of the skill is to interrupt an incoming attack (and I don’t mean just a random cleave.) So, my point is again, as was stated above: Why have a reactionary interrupt ability when you can be killed by said attack before you even strike out with your foot to interrupt it?

If you have that low of hp that you will be killed if you use that ability you probably shouldn’t be using that. At least not at close enough range that it procs. You should probably be kiting in that case. To solve your problem you could also time it so that it is the last swing of whatever combo they’re doing so that you don’t get hit extra when the skill activates.

Besides, technically you’re not interrupting the incoming attack, you’re blocking the incoming attack and then knocking them down. It can interrupt things, but I don’t see why you’re looking specifically for an interrupt. I mean yeah, pulmonary impact trait, but still, it’s not IDEAL for the sole purpose of interrupting someone.

And if you’re looking for a “true” reactionary interrupt skill, look at headshot or steal. As I said before, you’re looking at the skill without looking at ALL of its purposes, you’re looking at it as just an interrupt due to aftercasts.

At 10s base CD for a block/stunbreaker, the retaliatory kick is necessary for some sort of counter play. Not every class has the ability to exploit the .5s KD attack, but some do – as a thief, you should learn who you can use BD as a block against, and who you should save it as a Stunbreaker against.

But, since we already know the skill is being bumped to 15s CD, it’s going to need some kind of buff – I just went over how easily countered the skill is by any class with stability/a multi hit attack, and it’s just not good enough for a 15s cd.

Instead of an evade, perhaps cut the KD kick cast time down to .25s?

It should just be a 1.5 second block that has a rollover skill and blocks everything until it ends or you use the knockdown. That way you can choose to use it defensively or offensively and it doesn’t get triggered by all the AI running around.

Maugetarr.6823:

It should just be a 1.5 second block that has a rollover skill and blocks everything until it ends or you use the knockdown. That way you can choose to use it defensively or offensively and it doesn’t get triggered by all the AI running around.

I like the auto-fire KD as an element of counterplay, but I do agree with you that AI severely reduces the effectiveness of the skill.

I like your suggestion of a 1.5s block with a rollover on block, rather than forcing the KD to fire on melee block.

alchemyst.2165:

If you have that low of hp that you will be killed if you use that ability you probably shouldn’t be using that. At least not at close enough range that it procs. You should probably be kiting in that case. To solve your problem you could also time it so that it is the last swing of whatever combo they’re doing so that you don’t get hit extra when the skill activates.

Besides, technically you’re not interrupting the incoming attack, you’re blocking the incoming attack and then knocking them down. It can interrupt things, but I don’t see why you’re looking specifically for an interrupt. I mean yeah, pulmonary impact trait, but still, it’s not IDEAL for the sole purpose of interrupting someone.

And if you’re looking for a “true” reactionary interrupt skill, look at headshot or steal. As I said before, you’re looking at the skill without looking at ALL of its purposes, you’re looking at it as just an interrupt due to aftercasts.

So to sum up your post:

You shouldn’t use the skill for its intended purpose, it’s better with this unintended design flaw.

evilapprentice.6379:

At 10s base CD for a block/stunbreaker, the retaliatory kick is necessary for some sort of counter play. Not every class has the ability to exploit the .5s KD attack, but some do – as a thief, you should learn who you can use BD as a block against, and who you should save it as a Stunbreaker against.

But, since we already know the skill is being bumped to 15s CD, it’s going to need some kind of buff – I just went over how easily countered the skill is by any class with stability/a multi hit attack, and it’s just not good enough for a 15s cd.

Instead of an evade, perhaps cut the KD kick cast time down to .25s?

Honestly, anything to bridge that gap between the block and the kick.

Warhawk.7095:

alchemyst.2165:

If you have that low of hp that you will be killed if you use that ability you probably shouldn’t be using that. At least not at close enough range that it procs. You should probably be kiting in that case. To solve your problem you could also time it so that it is the last swing of whatever combo they’re doing so that you don’t get hit extra when the skill activates.

Besides, technically you’re not interrupting the incoming attack, you’re blocking the incoming attack and then knocking them down. It can interrupt things, but I don’t see why you’re looking specifically for an interrupt. I mean yeah, pulmonary impact trait, but still, it’s not IDEAL for the sole purpose of interrupting someone.

And if you’re looking for a “true” reactionary interrupt skill, look at headshot or steal. As I said before, you’re looking at the skill without looking at ALL of its purposes, you’re looking at it as just an interrupt due to aftercasts.

So to sum up your post:

You shouldn’t use the skill for its intended purpose, it’s better with this unintended design flaw.

I don’t know why you’re assuming it’s an unintended design, to the point of being a flaw. With a 10s CD, the KD feels to me like a designed window of counterplay. Again, that’s not the case at 15s CD, but the skill was initially designed with a 10s CD.

evilapprentice.6379:

Maugetarr.6823:

It should just be a 1.5 second block that has a rollover skill and blocks everything until it ends or you use the knockdown. That way you can choose to use it defensively or offensively and it doesn’t get triggered by all the AI running around.

I like the auto-fire KD as an element of counterplay, but I do agree with you that AI severely reduces the effectiveness of the skill.

I like your suggestion of a 1.5s block with a rollover on block, rather than forcing the KD to fire on melee block.

I think it should have the same cast time so you would still be vulnerable if you chose to use the knockdown, but I think that would help both sides in terms of play/counterplay. I thought it was a cool skill too when I was trying it during the games I played during BWE, but every little thing set it off and it ended up being more detrimental in teamfights since you were locked into the channel. Knocking down jagged horrors became frustrating.

Warhawk.7095:

alchemyst.2165:

If you have that low of hp that you will be killed if you use that ability you probably shouldn’t be using that. At least not at close enough range that it procs. You should probably be kiting in that case. To solve your problem you could also time it so that it is the last swing of whatever combo they’re doing so that you don’t get hit extra when the skill activates.

Besides, technically you’re not interrupting the incoming attack, you’re blocking the incoming attack and then knocking them down. It can interrupt things, but I don’t see why you’re looking specifically for an interrupt. I mean yeah, pulmonary impact trait, but still, it’s not IDEAL for the sole purpose of interrupting someone.

And if you’re looking for a “true” reactionary interrupt skill, look at headshot or steal. As I said before, you’re looking at the skill without looking at ALL of its purposes, you’re looking at it as just an interrupt due to aftercasts.

So to sum up your post:

You shouldn’t use the skill for its intended purpose, it’s better with this unintended design flaw.

facepalm do I have to explain myself again? I said, while it CAN be used as an interrupt, that is not its ONLY purpose, and if you are using it PURELY for interrupts, you’re doing something wrong. It has multiple abilities. And if you really want to use it for interrupts, I already told you what you could do to help you get them off easier. And I’m pretty sure it’s not a design flaw. It’s a window so people MIGHT have a time to react. An instant unavoidable knockdown stun break every 10 seconds is kittening insane. The cast time is there so a player can go “hold up my skill is about to hit his block, better dodge”. It’s not big, but it’s some counterplay for those very observant players. And just because there’s counterplay doesn’t mean it’s bad. It’s still definitely a very good skill, as I’ve stated before.

evilapprentice.6379:

Warhawk.7095:

alchemyst.2165:

If you have that low of hp that you will be killed if you use that ability you probably shouldn’t be using that. At least not at close enough range that it procs. You should probably be kiting in that case. To solve your problem you could also time it so that it is the last swing of whatever combo they’re doing so that you don’t get hit extra when the skill activates.

Besides, technically you’re not interrupting the incoming attack, you’re blocking the incoming attack and then knocking them down. It can interrupt things, but I don’t see why you’re looking specifically for an interrupt. I mean yeah, pulmonary impact trait, but still, it’s not IDEAL for the sole purpose of interrupting someone.

And if you’re looking for a “true” reactionary interrupt skill, look at headshot or steal. As I said before, you’re looking at the skill without looking at ALL of its purposes, you’re looking at it as just an interrupt due to aftercasts.

So to sum up your post:

You shouldn’t use the skill for its intended purpose, it’s better with this unintended design flaw.

I don’t know why you’re assuming it’s an unintended design, to the point of being a flaw. With a 10s CD, the KD feels to me like a designed window of counterplay. Again, that’s not the case at 15s CD, but the skill was initially designed with a 10s CD.

What is the point of a parry/riposte type skill (<—- thats what this is), if the attack that you are specifically parrying still hits you before the riposte?

And further, why would they bother to design a skill like this without something like that in mind?

alchemyst.2165:

Warhawk.7095:

alchemyst.2165:

If you have that low of hp that you will be killed if you use that ability you probably shouldn’t be using that. At least not at close enough range that it procs. You should probably be kiting in that case. To solve your problem you could also time it so that it is the last swing of whatever combo they’re doing so that you don’t get hit extra when the skill activates.

Besides, technically you’re not interrupting the incoming attack, you’re blocking the incoming attack and then knocking them down. It can interrupt things, but I don’t see why you’re looking specifically for an interrupt. I mean yeah, pulmonary impact trait, but still, it’s not IDEAL for the sole purpose of interrupting someone.

And if you’re looking for a “true” reactionary interrupt skill, look at headshot or steal. As I said before, you’re looking at the skill without looking at ALL of its purposes, you’re looking at it as just an interrupt due to aftercasts.

So to sum up your post:

You shouldn’t use the skill for its intended purpose, it’s better with this unintended design flaw.

facepalm do I have to explain myself again? I said, while it CAN be used as an interrupt, that is not its ONLY purpose, and if you are using it PURELY for interrupts, you’re doing something wrong. It has multiple abilities. And if you really want to use it for interrupts, I already told you what you could do to help you get them off easier. And I’m pretty sure it’s not a design flaw. It’s a window so people MIGHT have a time to react. An instant unavoidable knockdown stun break every 10 seconds is kittening insane. The cast time is there so a player can go “hold up my skill is about to hit his block, better dodge”. It’s not big, but it’s some counterplay for those very observant players. And just because there’s counterplay doesn’t mean it’s bad. It’s still definitely a very good skill, as I’ve stated before.

How “observant” do you have to be to whirl towards someone with a multi-hit attack?

The block is only ONE second long, bandits defense IS the counter-play, not something that just gets thrown up for OTHER people to figure out how to counter. (You want to counter play a 1 second block? ok, sneeze, snap your fingers, do literally anything that kills one second. There, the block’s time has expired, continue application of spam.)

And nobody here said the kick needed to be “unavoidable” but getting wrecked by the skill that you a specifically using bandits defense to counter make this skill useless for its intended purpose.

I have no idea why you can’t see the design intent here.

I am going to side with Alchemyst here OP. Althought your suggestion is just as reasonable, I believe the true purpose of this skill is actually setup, a bait to be more precise.

They should have renamed it “Bandit’s Bait”. Now I did not pay sufficient attention during BWE to see if Bandit’s defense successfully interrupts Warrior’s GS#3, because GS#3 also acts like an evade.

I don’t think Thieves should see it as an Interrupt, simply because it’s not. Every 8-10 seconds, this skill give you the opportunity to burst your target down/ or recuperate those precious seconds for your next Withdraw.

Bandit’s Defense is pure a bait, reversal mechanism, not in any way an interrupt. Like, you don’t run away with 1k hp hoping the skill will save your skin. Again, I still think adding the evade you suggested is reasonable, but it is certainly not necessary.

Warhawk.7095:

alchemyst.2165:

Warhawk.7095:

alchemyst.2165:

If you have that low of hp that you will be killed if you use that ability you probably shouldn’t be using that. At least not at close enough range that it procs. You should probably be kiting in that case. To solve your problem you could also time it so that it is the last swing of whatever combo they’re doing so that you don’t get hit extra when the skill activates.

Besides, technically you’re not interrupting the incoming attack, you’re blocking the incoming attack and then knocking them down. It can interrupt things, but I don’t see why you’re looking specifically for an interrupt. I mean yeah, pulmonary impact trait, but still, it’s not IDEAL for the sole purpose of interrupting someone.

And if you’re looking for a “true” reactionary interrupt skill, look at headshot or steal. As I said before, you’re looking at the skill without looking at ALL of its purposes, you’re looking at it as just an interrupt due to aftercasts.

So to sum up your post:

You shouldn’t use the skill for its intended purpose, it’s better with this unintended design flaw.

facepalm do I have to explain myself again? I said, while it CAN be used as an interrupt, that is not its ONLY purpose, and if you are using it PURELY for interrupts, you’re doing something wrong. It has multiple abilities. And if you really want to use it for interrupts, I already told you what you could do to help you get them off easier. And I’m pretty sure it’s not a design flaw. It’s a window so people MIGHT have a time to react. An instant unavoidable knockdown stun break every 10 seconds is kittening insane. The cast time is there so a player can go “hold up my skill is about to hit his block, better dodge”. It’s not big, but it’s some counterplay for those very observant players. And just because there’s counterplay doesn’t mean it’s bad. It’s still definitely a very good skill, as I’ve stated before.

How “observant” do you have to be to whirl towards someone with a multi-hit attack?

The block is only ONE second long, bandits defense IS the counter-play, not something that just gets thrown up for OTHER people to figure out how to counter. (You want to counter play a 1 second block? ok, sneeze, snap your fingers, do literally anything that kills one second. There, the block’s time has expired, continue application of spam.)

And nobody here said the kick needed to be “unavoidable” but getting wrecked by the skill that you a specifically using bandits defense to counter make this skill useless for its intended purpose.

I have no idea why you can’t see the design intent here.

Okay since you obviously don’t understand I’m just gonna leave it here.

Btw its 1.5 seconds, the tooltip is wrong.

Kocoff.7582:

I am going to side with Alchemyst here OP. Althought your suggestion is just as reasonable, I believe the true purpose of this skill is actually setup, a bait to be more precise.

They should have renamed it “Bandit’s Bait”. Now I did not pay sufficient attention during BWE to see if Bandit’s defense successfully interrupts Warrior’s GS#3, because GS#3 also acts like an evade.

I don’t think Thieves should see it as an Interrupt, simply because it’s not. Every 8-10 seconds, this skill give you the opportunity to burst your target down/ or recuperate those precious seconds for your next Withdraw.

Bandit’s Defense is pure a bait, reversal mechanism, not in any way an interrupt. Like, you don’t run away with 1k hp hoping the skill will save your skin. Again, I still think adding the evade you suggested is reasonable, but it is certainly not necessary.

I vote we drop the OP/Alchemyst debate and focus on what Maug brought up.

Regardless of the intent of the skill, in its current form its much too easily triggered by AI/Random attacks in big team fights, making both the Block and Setup portion of the skill unreliable.

Since Anet has clearly designed DD to be a “team fighter”, we should be asking Anet to design the skill as Maug described earlier in the post.

evilapprentice.6379:

Kocoff.7582:

I am going to side with Alchemyst here OP. Althought your suggestion is just as reasonable, I believe the true purpose of this skill is actually setup, a bait to be more precise.

They should have renamed it “Bandit’s Bait”. Now I did not pay sufficient attention during BWE to see if Bandit’s defense successfully interrupts Warrior’s GS#3, because GS#3 also acts like an evade.

I don’t think Thieves should see it as an Interrupt, simply because it’s not. Every 8-10 seconds, this skill give you the opportunity to burst your target down/ or recuperate those precious seconds for your next Withdraw.

Bandit’s Defense is pure a bait, reversal mechanism, not in any way an interrupt. Like, you don’t run away with 1k hp hoping the skill will save your skin. Again, I still think adding the evade you suggested is reasonable, but it is certainly not necessary.

I vote we drop the OP/Alchemyst debate and focus on what Maug brought up.

Regardless of the intent of the skill, in its current form its much too easily triggered by AI/Random attacks in big team fights, making both the Block and Setup portion of the skill unreliable.

Since Anet has clearly designed DD to be a “team fighter”, we should be asking Anet to design the skill as Maug described earlier in the post.

A good fix to that issue would be having the kick only hit the person you’re targeting, if you’re targeting someone (regardless of whoever procced it). If you’re not targeting anybody, then have it hit the person that procced it.

I just read what he said, the dev definitely needs that feedback. However, how does it change anything? If it turns into a rollover skill, I find it gets even more likely that you end up knocking down one of those jagged horrors like he said.

I remember knocking down a few clones/phantasms, but then if am given the choice I do not think I would be able to accurately knockdown the right target in the heat of time.

Kocoff.7582:

I just read what he said, the dev definitely needs that feedback. However, how does it change anything? If it turns into a rollover skill, I find it gets even more likely that you end up knocking down one of those jagged horrors like he said.

I remember knocking down a few clones/phantasms, but then if am given the choice I do not think I would be able to accurately knockdown the right target in the heat of time.

…Except you would control when the kick went out, if it were a rollover skill. If you were surrounded by AI, you could just take the entire block and let the rollover expire. If you thought you had a chance to get to a worthwhile target, you could maneuver and try to use the rollover KD.

evilapprentice.6379:

Kocoff.7582:

I just read what he said, the dev definitely needs that feedback. However, how does it change anything? If it turns into a rollover skill, I find it gets even more likely that you end up knocking down one of those jagged horrors like he said.

I remember knocking down a few clones/phantasms, but then if am given the choice I do not think I would be able to accurately knockdown the right target in the heat of time.

…Except you would control when the kick went out, if it were a rollover skill. If you were surrounded by AI, you could just take the entire block and let the rollover expire. If you thought you had a chance to get to a worthwhile target, you could maneuver and try to use the rollover KD.

Ok ok I understand now. That way the skill leaves even more options that could truly trick the opponent. I like that a lot actually. Ty for explaining this.

KAAAARRRRLLLLL lol

Edit: my face after I understood the concept
http://skygawker.tumblr.com/post/125193940088/hamiltonians-im-watching-star-wars

I am very excited by the addition of Bandit’s Defense into the game. It makes not running Shadowstep possible and opens up a few possible builds. I do agree that it needs tweaks as detailed above, however.

evilapprentice.6379:

Kocoff.7582:

I am going to side with Alchemyst here OP. Althought your suggestion is just as reasonable, I believe the true purpose of this skill is actually setup, a bait to be more precise.

They should have renamed it “Bandit’s Bait”. Now I did not pay sufficient attention during BWE to see if Bandit’s defense successfully interrupts Warrior’s GS#3, because GS#3 also acts like an evade.

I don’t think Thieves should see it as an Interrupt, simply because it’s not. Every 8-10 seconds, this skill give you the opportunity to burst your target down/ or recuperate those precious seconds for your next Withdraw.

Bandit’s Defense is pure a bait, reversal mechanism, not in any way an interrupt. Like, you don’t run away with 1k hp hoping the skill will save your skin. Again, I still think adding the evade you suggested is reasonable, but it is certainly not necessary.

I vote we drop the OP/Alchemyst debate and focus on what Maug brought up.

Regardless of the intent of the skill, in its current form its much too easily triggered by AI/Random attacks in big team fights, making both the Block and Setup portion of the skill unreliable.

Since Anet has clearly designed DD to be a “team fighter”, we should be asking Anet to design the skill as Maug described earlier in the post.

I think I put this into my feedback in the feedback thread, but that filled up so fast it probably got buried.