Guild Wars 2

So I was dueling a thief in spvp last night, and I think I’ve put together what gets on my nerves about them.

1) They can do tons of damage in a single, very hard to mitigate shot
2) Thieves’ initiative mechanic combined with low cooldowns allows them to rapidly retry spikes
3) Stealth, when executed properly and combined with some of the best mobility in the game, allows for a reset on the fight to give a failed spike attempt a second shot

Any one (maybe even any two) of these are fine on their own, but combined it just gets really frustrating to fight a thief.

Glass cannons in this game and others are dead once their cannon fails, but not thieves. I went about 50/50 on wins with the guy I was dueling, and it always came down to who messed up first. However the thief had a distinct advantage in that, if he messed up, he could usually run away and try again, whereas if I messed up I was dead. I can definitely see a more skilled thief than him forever trolling WvW and low-to-mid-ranked sPvP by simply never being caught if the spike fails. No other class that I’ve fought or played as could get quite the amount of survivability that their mobility and stealth (combined) provide while still maintaining the damage output of a thief.

Is this bad game design or interesting class dynamics? I’m not one to judge. But this, and the low skill cap to be successful using these builds, is what sets my teeth on edge whenever I fight BS/HS thieves. My two cents.

MidgeisGood.2153:

seriously….im so tired of these posts

Well but here’s the thing – it’s a very low skill requirement to be successful with these builds, but a very high skill requirement to successfully counter all three factors combined.

I’ve read all these things before in this forum, too, but I thought this might help clarify for ANet or other players. If not then I’m sorry for wasting your time.

Since the forum went on an error and my long post got wiped, I’m just gonna say this. Different classes have different purposes. Thieves are meant to kill, and therefore it’ll be easy for thief players with killing. That’s about it.

The uncanny burst is really the only over-tuned aspect to the thief in pvp, and the rendering issue isn’t a fault of the class. Being a good escape artist is fine and fits. I dun mind some of the complaints but it seems many people would rather this class be a warrior in leather w/ 3/5ths the health if they had their way w/ the game.

In hindsight, the way they handled stealth in this game was a bad idea in light of WvW; I’m not sure they or the customers are ready/willing to overhaul stealth just due to that, and even if they did it just show terrible form on ANet’s part.

1) They can do tons of damage in a single, very hard to mitigate shot
2) Thieves’ initiative mechanic combined with low cooldowns allows them to rapidly retry spikes
3) Stealth, when executed properly and combined with some of the best mobility in the game, allows for a reset on the fight to give a failed spike attempt a second shot

1) They can do significant damage in a single shot, yes. Thief damage is very front-loaded. However, it is not hard to mitigate at all. anything which blocks a single attack will be far more devastating against a thief than it would be against other classes.
2) In order to get anywhere near insta-kill level damage, the thief has to use several cooldowns. Thief cooldowns are generally at least 20 seconds. If the thief misses their burst, they are going to be vulnerable for at least 20 seconds. And since all of their utility skills went into making that perfect burst, they don’t have any utility for survival.
3) Stealth and mobility mean nothing if you hit the thief with an immobilize or daze or stun before they get a chance to stealth. Something that works really great is trapping them in a guardian bubble. There is a 3 second window after the thief backstabs where they cannot stealth again. That’s more than enough time to kill a glass cannon thief.

I am kinda interested in what class you play I would like to try it out. Thief is pretty tough for giving out damage in pvp but its a pretty kitten poor pve class. I can take about 5 hits in a dungeon and about 1 to 3 hits from another level 80 in pvp. Im nearly completely in greens and speced totally crit. I can hit for about 4k with my best abilites. I cant really chain those abilities before im dead. Most of the time I run in deal damage and run out. That is exactly how they describes how the class would be played. We have been getting continually nerfed. I really think we need a survivability buff. We just need more health points mostly for pve. Getting 1 shotted sucks and only the best thiefs can 1 shot classes but every class can 1 shot me if they are geared.

Quotes don’t seem to work so

@bwillb
1) Don’t forget that the backstab combo isn’t a single attack. Most thieves use mug>C&D>backstab. A single block won’t shave off that much damage. Even then most classes don’t keep aegis and block skills handy, and they shouldn’t be expected to just for a single class.
2) If they miss their burst they can run away. If the thief saves up a single utility for a stealth skill or uses the stealth heal they can get away easily.
3) During that 3 second window they can dodge. Then they can switch to shortbow, stealth, and use infiltrators arrow to get away.

And no 3 seconds isn’t enough to kill a glass cannon thief unless you’re a glass cannon with your cooldowns up. A lot of l2p thieves are saying that you shouldn’t be a glass cannon. Even then the thief has to suddenly go braindead and stand still instead of dodging away and pulling out the shortbow.

Hang on. You said you went 50/50 with the thief, and then you call them OP.

@MadPants: Many of your PvE issues will probably go away when you get exotic gear instead of greens. PvE is downright easy as a thief (and most professions) once you learn how to avoid most damage through movement, but better gear really helps make fights short and simple.

Even then the thief has to suddenly go braindead and stand still instead of dodging away

I’m just going to quote this for emphasis, because that is exactly the situation that gets people in trouble against thieves in the first place.

bwillb.2165:

Even then the thief has to suddenly go braindead and stand still instead of dodging away

I’m just going to quote this for emphasis, because that is exactly the situation that gets people in trouble against thieves in the first place.

Or you know being surprised by a random thief jumping out of ambush and mugging you with basalisk venom or devourer venom, and then finishing you off instantly.

I think i finally figured out the problem with the backstab build. After a few rounds of instant-killing heavy golems, i understand now. Why is it that when i activate the assassins signet in stealth my character attacks and still gets the backstab. If they made it so activating the signet doesn’t attack, and instead just breaks you out of stealth, it won’t be OP anymore.

thieves are not OP, stop trolling posts like these because you can’t counter us soo easily. we can stil get crippled, still get channeled onto while entering stealth which reveals us, and oh wait… DONT STAND STILL WHEN YOU SEE US DISAPEAR… Stealthing has been around for years and years in MMOS and if people honestly don’t know how to avoid that then they should stop playing MMOs… I guess we should complain about how much healing guardians get because you know, they are better than thieves at healing :/… Stop raging because professions are better at some things than others.

Just because you have some weaknesses doesn’t mean you have the right to 1-shot people. Don’t stand still when you dissapear is a good idea if you’re fighting a kitten thief that doesn’t know how to approach properly. I can mug+cnd with devourer and basalisk venom then hit from behind instantly with assassins signet. Most people are not geared to break immobilize, so the devourer venom usually gets them. steal is instant so there’s no way to tell if a thief is going to instantly kill you.

and yet, there is a dodge button, and tons of escape skills on numerous professions… I dont run signet and venom BS build( i only hit about 8k Backstab) so maybe those builds need rethinking but the way thieves are designed are not OP. They arn’t unkillabled and certainly arn’t impossible to counter. Flamers post that thieves take no skill. Not true. Good thieves take thinking within seconds and putting skills together to maximize dmg or else they get targeted and die quickly due to low defence and hp. Rangers get pets and long range, and engineers get long range and turets so they can play safe for awhile. Thieves have to risk being up close and vulnerable.

Division.9618:

Just because you have some weaknesses doesn’t mean you have the right to 1-shot people. Don’t stand still when you dissapear is a good idea if you’re fighting a kitten thief that doesn’t know how to approach properly. I can mug+cnd with devourer and basalisk venom then hit from behind instantly with assassins signet. Most people are not geared to break immobilize, so the devourer venom usually gets them. steal is instant so there’s no way to tell if a thief is going to instantly kill you.

Luckily, this is somewhat offset by the downed system. A thief who jumps in and insta-downs someone and then is downed and finished while their target is revived has lost in every way. This means that the tactic is only really an issue in 1v1. Perhaps instead of profession change it warrants a meta shift away from 1v1?

Tulisin.6945:

Luckily, this is somewhat offset by the downed system. A thief who jumps in and insta-downs someone and then is downed and finished while their target is revived has lost in every way. This means that the tactic is only really an issue in 1v1. Perhaps instead of profession change it warrants a meta shift away from 1v1?

Not really. A thief can still stealth stomp of quick stomp and get away.

And besides, it’s not a meta change if only one class is moving it along. That just means that one class is OP. 1v1 situations happen. Sometimes you want to split off from the zerg and snag a point in sPVP, or you have a strategy where your team splits off into 3 groups in tPVP.

NinjaEd.3946:

and yet, there is a dodge button, and tons of escape skills on numerous professions… I dont run signet and venom BS build( i only hit about 8k Backstab) so maybe those builds need rethinking but the way thieves are designed are not OP. They arn’t unkillabled and certainly arn’t impossible to counter. Flamers post that thieves take no skill. Not true. Good thieves take thinking within seconds and putting skills together to maximize dmg or else they get targeted and die quickly due to low defence and hp. Rangers get pets and long range, and engineers get long range and turets so they can play safe for awhile. Thieves have to risk being up close and vulnerable.

I’m not saying thieves are OP. I’m saying backstab glass cannon builds are OP. I love my thief, and i’d like for P/P or S/D to get some buffs thrown in there, but killing someone in the span of a second should not be allowed anywhere.

>"Not really. A thief can still stealth stomp of quick stomp and get away"
Can’t stealth right out of backstab, and even if you could it doesn’t do anything to defend you while you stomp. A full glass thief is going to die to a couple seconds of autoattack if he tries to stomp, even assuming he brought quickness to get the stomp off he’s going to die, he just might get someone dead with him.

Thieves aren’t the only profession that discourages 1v1, most professions can go glass cannon and people down in a couple seconds. If you don’t bring a friend, you’re always going to open yourself up to a frontloaded ambush.

yeah but most of those glass cannon ambushes are easy to beat. They usually either take a while to complete (like the elementalist or engineer burst) or they’re really easy to react to (like the warrior or guardian burst).

thief backstab burst however doesn’t have either of those.

For example, the engineer. I can do similar damage on my burst rifle engineer. The difference? Well first i need to hit them with a skill that’s pretty easy to dodge (net shot), then i need to run up to them before net shot runs out and do a jump shot which takes about 2-3 seconds by itself. Then finally i finish off with a blunderbuss which is about 1 more second. All in all it’s about 5-6 seconds of combo and it usually does less damage than backstab.

Thief? well i activate devourer venom, que up CnD, use steal to get in. Steal is almost unpredictable and CnD hits right after steal. When they’re immobilized i just run through them and press assassins signet for a backstab. That’s all about 1 second.

EDIT: also forgot to mention, you can fill that 3 second gap in between stealth with a dodge or two. After that go invisible and quickly go for the stomp. The enemy won’t have any idea where you are and the downed person will be dead. that is, as long as you didn’t try to backstab a guy in the middle of a zerg alone.

“5-6 seconds of combo and it does less damage than backstab”

Just because your combo is three skill activations doesn’t mean it is a burst combo. You could’ve stood in place hitting autoattack 5 times for the same amount of damage in less time. Given the same good hypothetical conditions that allow backstab closers to be amazing you could pull that combo off in 3~ seconds.

“…After that go invisible and quickly go for the stomp. The enemy won’t have any idea where you are…’
I hope people continue to believe this, because I enjoy free kills for running over to a downed buddy and hitting autoattack. You can’t stomp remotely, killing a glass stealth stomping thief is easy.

Tulisin.6945:

“5-6 seconds of combo and it does less damage than backstab”

Just because your combo is three skill activations doesn’t mean it is a burst combo. You could’ve stood in place hitting autoattack 5 times for the same amount of damage in less time. Given the same good hypothetical conditions that allow backstab closers to be amazing you could pull that combo off in 3~ seconds.

“…After that go invisible and quickly go for the stomp. The enemy won’t have any idea where you are…’
I hope people continue to believe this, because I enjoy free kills for running over to a downed buddy and hitting autoattack. You can’t stomp remotely, killing a glass stealth stomping thief is easy.

Nope i can’t pull that off in 3~ seconds. I still need to get close after i hit them with net shot, jump shot takes a long time to pull off, and there’s a delay between jump shot and blunderbuss. Yes. That’s burst damage for other classes, and no it doesn’t do less damage than just auto attacking.

Oh and after checking that combo out again, no. It doesn’t have similar damage backstab burst. The heavy golem still has a decent chunk of his HP left.

Most people won’t just run over and auto attack, and they certainly can’t kill a quickened thief before he manages to finish off your downed buddy. You seem to greatly underestimate how long it takes most people to kill a thief, unless like i said you assume that the thief ran in the middle of a group of 3 or more, which would be stupid. 2 is already pushing it.

And even if you could stop a thief before he downs your friend, so what? you can beat a glass cannon in 2v1. good for you. You can do that with every glass cannon out there. No one should be able to instantly down an opponent in 1v1.

Division.9618:

You seem to greatly underestimate how long it takes most people to kill a thief

An average thief, sure, but we’re talking a 12K HP one-hit-wonder. I’m not a glass cannon and I literally do 10K autoattack chains on those guys. Standing still for a few seconds where your opponent knows your location is a death sentence for builds that glassy, and stomping requires you to do that, even stealthed.

Net shot isn’t a necessity to pull off your combo just like precast venoms aren’t a necessity to pull off a backstab combo, they’re just insurance against your opponent being able to react. If we’re going to assume hypothetical good conditions for one profession’s high-burst ambush, we have to assume it for all professions.

Getting jumped by a glass cannon and downed is a risk anyone takes for going 1v1, but it has less to do with anything thieves’ have and more to do with GW2’s short TTK making those 1-2 seconds of disorientation following an attack ultimately fatal.

Jump shot isn’t insurance. It doesn’t do anything to hold enemies. It’s for damage. If you skip jump shot it’s like doing the backstab burst but then not doing the actual backstab.

Most glass cannons give you time to react. I said it in a post above, they generally take a while to be taken to completion, and they can be reacted to and broken out of easily and quickly. Thief does it way too fast and with way too much damage to be considered balanced.

I meant net shot, edited.

The only way you can hit someone with jump shot without some kind of immobilize is if they stand perfectly still. I mean perfectly still. jump shot has a large delay with a small AOE. A few steps to one side can avoid it entirely. It also has an amazingly obvious and 100% unique animation. At that point saying net shot is insurance is like saying bulls charge is insurance for 100 blades.

You dueled the Thief, went about 50/50, and it came down to who messed up first? Sounds balanced to me.

The thief mechanics bother you, but it’s still 50/50 and he still loses after messing up first? Again – sounds balanced.

You’ve disproved your own argument OP.

Division.9618:

bwillb.2165:

Even then the thief has to suddenly go braindead and stand still instead of dodging away

I’m just going to quote this for emphasis, because that is exactly the situation that gets people in trouble against thieves in the first place.

Or you know being surprised by a random thief jumping out of ambush and mugging you with basalisk venom or devourer venom, and then finishing you off instantly.

When did thieves become the only class with stun and immobilize?

Hammer Warrior > Thief

bwillb.2165:

Division.9618:

bwillb.2165:

Even then the thief has to suddenly go braindead and stand still instead of dodging away

I’m just going to quote this for emphasis, because that is exactly the situation that gets people in trouble against thieves in the first place.

Or you know being surprised by a random thief jumping out of ambush and mugging you with basalisk venom or devourer venom, and then finishing you off instantly.

When did thieves become the only class with stun and immobilize?

They arent, I find it funny people still havent learned to counter a BS build in a 1 v 1.
It takes all of standing on the point and looking and being situationally aware of your surroundings.

If you get stolen to and hit by C&D, use your about face hotkey ( because people should have realized this is a button by now), use a defensive CD, dodge, do something other than stand there and look pretty.

A thief can reset the fight if his burst misses, awesome, because if your playing spvp or even tpvp right, you should be on a point. If no one is their to contest a point from you your team is winning. If after the first failed attempt your still standing still in lala land then you deserve to die instantly.

I can understand a BS thief build being a pain in a group scenario, chaos and tunnel vision (I suffer from tunnel vision a lot >_<) get even the best of us killed, but in 1 v 1….

P.S. this post was not directed at you bwi

shh don’t tell people about that hotkey, that’ll completely destroy thieves.