Guild Wars 2

Exciting time for the game overall, thank you ANet! The purpose of this thread is to list and discuss your ideas, suggestions and concerns about the new GM thief traits, as introduced in the latest Ready Up episode. I shall be compiling all the points in the original post so players and developers can have a general idea of what the community is thinking in regard to these introductions.

Revealed Training (Deadly Arts)

• There is a confusion over whether the 200 power procs on the hit that triggers revealed or after it.
• Can help the “one-shot” builds a lot, but still remains to be seen whether it’s worth replacing with Panic Strike for these particular builds.
• A good addition for PvE thieves.
• Good trait to have when you expect anti-stealth traps in WvW, especially with the new change where you can swap out traits out of combat.

Invigorating Precision (Critical Strikes)

• Not useful for roamers in PvP as Executioner is still much, much better.
• May help increase thief participation in WvW zergs.
• Might be a good addition for a PvE thief’s survivability.
• Remains to be seen how strong the healing really is in practice and whether it is enough to replace Executioner and Hidden Killer in most builds.

Resilience of Shadows (Shadow Arts)

• Good addition to the “ninja nurse” build. With this trait, the thief has a lot of resurrecting potential, especially when combined with Merciful Ambush and Mercy runes.
• Not very good for solo-roaming WvW thieves as Shadow’s Rejuvenation is still a better choice.
• Gives thieves a role for WvW zerg participation.

Assassin’s Equilibrium (Acrobatics)

• As the Acrobatics thief depends on dodges instead of stealth for its defenses, stealthing and pre-emptively attacking in order to tank an incoming stun seems impractical.
• Trait has little stomping potential since in order to secure one from the stability, one has to stealth and Steal to the target in order to trigger revealed.
• A one-second stability implies a thief shall be “tanking” stuns, which goes against the squishy nature of thieves.
• A good counter to traits like Tempest Defense, Mirror of Anguish, Reaper’s Protection etc. allowing the thief to execute the burst combo with impunity.

Bewildering Ambush (Trickery)

• A good addition to PvP P/D thieves as they can now apply torment, bleeds, poison and confusion in a single combo, making for a good condition burst along with a decent amount of covers.
• The trait seems underwhelming for condition thieves in WvW as most would choose to take Sleight of Hand, which on a successful interrupt (Perplexity runes), is much stronger than this trait’s version.
• Might have good synergy with S/P builds, as the steal + pistol whip combo would no longer add a redundant daze on top of a stun and instead offers confusion stacks.

My personal thoughts:

Revealed Training – Seems really strong, especially considering the fact that it’s in the trait line that already boosts power by a lot. Thanks to initiative regen buff, one might not have to go with 25/30/0/0/15 for the extra initiative and could instead go with a 30/30/x/x/x for some crazy power hits. It would be interesting to see if people put this trait to use on sets besides dagger main-hand.

Invigorating Precision – I honestly cannot say how good this trait is at this point in time since it’s competing with Executioner and Hidden Killer, both of which are staples in various thief builds. I’d like to see if this can give rise to sustain based bruiser builds that utilise the new Assassin’s Reward along with this trait and Signet of Malice or Withdraw.

Resilience of Shadows – Crazy addition to the Ninja Nurse build. Combined with Merciful Ambush and other Shadow Arts traits, thieves could potentially have a lot of resurrecting potential.

Assassin’s Equilibrium – The only trait I feel meh about. First off, most acrobatic builds don’t make use of stealth a lot. And even if they do and are that deep into acrobatics, to avoid an incoming stun, one would rather dodge (since you have infinite of them) than blow their stealth to avoid incoming stuns. On the Ready Up stream, Josh talked about how you could use this to secure stomps. I’m not sure if that really works how he described it since in order to get revealed, you need to C&D and then hit your target which will cancel your stomp (except when you Steal to them mid stomp to trigger reveal). So I suppose it would have “okay” stomping potential when you can stealth and have steal up. Overall, I’d say this line could do with a better trait, but I might be completely wrong about this.

Bewildering Ambush – Great addition to thief condition builds. Good line to put the trait into. Considering that you can now put bleeds, torment, poison and confusion (as P/D) in one burst combo, it might see use in PvP.

put a description of the traits in the OP :
Deadly Arts: Revealed Training – Gain up to 200 extra power when you are revealed, based on your level Good for pve, might be funny for trollish oneshot pvp build

Critical Strikes : Invigorating Precision – You are healed for a % of the strike damage dealt. The current rate is 5%. Does not work on ambient creatures. horrible, no idea what’s the point of that thing

Shadow Arts: Resilience of Shadows – Stealth you apply reduces 50% incoming attack damage. Does not work against condition damage. it could actually have some uses in both pve/pvp, but.. what decent build invest 30 point in that trait line?

Acrobatics: Assassin’s Equilibrium – Gain 1s of stability when you are revealed. This is a high skill cap trait as you need to use it when you see a stun/daze coming and attack first to reveal yourself and gain the stability. i don’t know to be honest, it doesen’t seem TOO bad but i don’t see any real use since acrobatic don’t rely much on stealth anyway and also stability is used to tank those attacks that would otherwise stun you, but thief and tanking can’t live in the same phrase

Trickery: Bewildering Ambush – Stealing applies 5 stacks of confusion for 5 seconds. might be decent for some condition build, but still.. condi build sucks and i think the daze on steal and 20% less cd would be better? not so sure about that

In theory, the DA gm would fit my build well. I just took 30 in DA (normally had 25) to test out having less dodge from 15 acro. Takes a bit of adjusting but I think it’ll do fine.. Though panic strike is fun on 30 DA as well so might actually take panic strike over revealed training if I don’t like it after all

As for Bewildering ambush: Would work greatly on S/P thieves. Some S/P thieves used to run x/30/x/x/30 without sleight of hand (cause their pistolwhip already stuns “on” steal). This would buff their steal skill without the “loss” of sleight of hand.

Don’t like CS GM.
SA GM sounds decent but I haven’t played 30 SA for more than a year .. and not likely to turn back to it.
No comments to Acr GM

What I’m interested in is how people will make builds that go full into DA and nothing in CS, purposely using cloak and dagger to reveal themselves with say tactical strike or whatnot to reveal themselves on purpose. Throw gunk may have situational usage too as it reveals you heck even walking out of SR too quickly

Invigorating Precision (Critical Strikes)

It looks like this trait is trying to fill a niche for thieves that like to participate in big fights. They created “big fight” trait for mesmers too, but that one is a different league.

It can provide quite a nice healing when using with SB or S/P and if you stack it with signet, food, sigil of blood it can get quite annoying. Some people my use this for their troll builds from time to time, so they may be new wave of QQ-ing on the forums.

I don’t think it will replace existing CS traits in most scenarios, but they are trying to experiment with some survivability boosts which is a good thing. Having this trait implemented is very important even if it won’t be used much as they can easily buff it anytime to make it more appealing.

Also with free trait refunds and a lot of people already running 30 points in CS it will be easy to switch to it when you find it useful even if it is 2% of the time.

I think it is quite difficult to create super useful CS trait that will be used a lot and yet wouldn’t overwrite already existing traits so all 3 will have their uses. They said the don’t want add traits that boost damage when they are traits already doing that.

Assassin’s Equilibrium (Acrobatics)

This trait won’t be that useful for me as it requires pretty great timings to use it effectively as a anti-CC tactic. I can only hope some very experienced thieves will choose this over existing grandmaster traits and be effective with it, but I am not sure if it will be really worth using.

For me it would give me more survivability when they knock you out of Shadow Refuge and be an anti-“Shocking Aura” trait basically.

Revealed Training – Depends on how quickly the 200 power is applied. If it’s applied to the hit that breaks the stealth (backstab or whatnot), very nice. If it’s applied after the stealth is fully broken and not to the initial hit… much more meh. Still, will be useful in wvw if it applies to the revealed caused by antistealth traps.

Invigorating Precision – Nice idea, but nobody will ever use this over Executioner.

Resilience of Shadows – Good for wvw permastealth thieves when people are trying to AE them down, I suppose. Not worth a 30-point trait for.

Assassin’s Equilibrium – Whoever came up with this one needs to be shot in their god kitten face. Thieves already have the least amount of stability of any class in the game, and when we finally get some more, we still can’t control when it goes off. See that stun or knockdown attack incoming? Awesome, all you have to do is fire off stealth, get close enough to hit them (assuming that you already didn’t have to get close enough to CnD), and hope that you timed it right that the attack doesn’t land after a paltry one second. Assuming that it didn’t already land when you were trying to get it to fire.
I suppose that this trait has one saving grace, in that there’s still no reason to dump the full 30 in Acrobatics since all the GM traits suck.

Seriously. In his god kitten face.

Bewildering Ambush – Not bad, but is it worth dropping Slight of Hand for? Probably not.

tl;dr version – None of the traits are really worth using. Either they’re good, but not as good as the old GM traits, or they’re abysmally bad in a line with other abysmally bad GM traits. Also, in his god kitten face.

Revealed Training – Good if it applies to hits from stealth, otherwise meh. Could work well for builds lacking power…. maybe with cavalier’s gear? Would suggest moving to Critical Strikes.
Suggestion: Have Bewildering Ambush as GM in DA, move Revealed Training to Critical Strikes. I would also suggest Panic Strikes be buffed to provide an alternative for direct damage builds, seen as immobilize / stun is now common in PvP / WvW. Perhaps grant X stacks of might for Y secs in addition to the immobilize. This seems more fair than Revealed Training seen as it gives opportunity to counter.

Invigorating Precision – Mmmm…. no. Up against executioner and hidden killer. Also, consider downing a 20k target: you get only 1000 vitality assuming every hit is a critical. Would be good for sustained fights, but only condition builds tend to do this. Condition builds tend to lack precision and can generally find more appropriate trait lines to invest in. Putting a defensive trait as a GM in a direct damage trait line is just a crazy idea.
Suggestion: Take Revealed Training, ensure duration makes it competitive with hidden killer and executioner. This would provide a go to trait for less bursty builds that already have high precision.

Shadow Arts: Resilience of Shadows – Perhaps if using a gimmicky stealth medic build, otherwise no. A lot of damage during stealth comes from AOE, which has a tendency to cause conditions and stuns, neither of which are mitigated by this trait. Generally seems like bad trait design, inferior to the very similar Shadow’s Rejuvenation trait. Resilience of Shadows would help more with incoming damage bursts…. but who’s going to burst you with direct damage while you are in stealth?
Suggestion: Replace. Gain a random boon for X seconds every Y second in stealth? Something else?

Acrobatics: Assassin’s Equilibrium – 1s if far too short to help with pumping damage into hammer wielding heavy classes. Thieves can effectively replicate this trait already dodging backwards after attacking from stealth. A poor counter to telegraphed CC, since you need to attack to break stealth. Your attack cast will likely be too slow to break stealth in time to counter any oncoming CC. Perhaps up the time to 2s? Personally I would much prefer an alternative trait, as a lot of acrobatics thieves do not make heavy use of stealth.
Suggestion: Up time to 2s? 4s stability on stun, can only occur every 60s? Gain 2s of stability for every successful evade? Needs a strong new GM since the others are a little lacklustre.

Trickery: Bewildering Ambush – Seems good on paper… but using sleight of hand with perplexity runes is a much better alternative to this trait: shorter steal times, daze, interrupts and 5 stacks of confusion on interrupt for 10s. The increased steal time from not choosing sleight of hand would be detrimental to the synergy commonly found in condition builds using mug.
Suggestion: Move to deadly arts as GM. Transfer a condition from yourself to your target and break stun, immobilize on steal? Something else?

Dakota.4591:

Revealed Training – Depends on how quickly the 200 power is applied. If it’s applied to the hit that breaks the stealth (backstab or whatnot), very nice. If it’s applied after the stealth is fully broken and not to the initial hit… much more meh. Still, will be useful in wvw if it applies to the revealed caused by antistealth traps.

Invigorating Precision – Nice idea, but nobody will ever use this over Executioner.

Resilience of Shadows – Good for wvw permastealth thieves when people are trying to AE them down, I suppose. Not worth a 30-point trait for.

Assassin’s Equilibrium – Whoever came up with this one needs to be shot in their god kitten face. Thieves already have the least amount of stability of any class in the game, and when we finally get some more, we still can’t control when it goes off. See that stun or knockdown attack incoming? Awesome, all you have to do is fire off stealth, get close enough to hit them (assuming that you already didn’t have to get close enough to CnD), and hope that you timed it right that the attack doesn’t land after a paltry one second. Assuming that it didn’t already land when you were trying to get it to fire.
I suppose that this trait has one saving grace, in that there’s still no reason to dump the full 30 in Acrobatics since all the GM traits suck.

Seriously. In his god kitten face.

Bewildering Ambush – Not bad, but is it worth dropping Slight of Hand for? Probably not.

tl;dr version – None of the traits are really worth using. Either they’re good, but not as good as the old GM traits, or they’re abysmally bad in a line with other abysmally bad GM traits. Also, in his god kitten face.

i think this kinda sums it up. well said. i cant disagree with anything.

i WILL suggest that ANET moves the 5% on precision heals to 8%. % wont be enough to matter. we are mostly single target attackers

I think some traits can have niche uses and there is nothing wrong about that. Yes, thieves focusing on damage won’t use Invigorating Precision over Executioner, but if you have very powerful trait like Executioner then it is pretty normal than any alternative will be used a lot less or you make something even more powerful, but then nobody will pick Executioner.

Supporting survivability makes some sense for playstyles where damage is less important (like WvW zergs) and maybe there will be more content added in the future where this playstyle will be preferred.

I hope myself they will buff the numbers on Invirogating Precision but they may be scared about builds stacking similar effects – food, runes, sigils, signet, some other traits. We will see in the future.

I think Anet was aiming with these trait to create new builds so that is probably why people won’t prefer some (most?) of these trait in existing builds over what they are used to. I just hope those new possible roles will be actually needed in the game.

Invigorating precision + SoM + Assassin’s reward

There’s the sustain thieves been asking for in large group fights

Problem is Anet moved the acro trait to GM lulz

Don’t get me wrong… I’m all for encouraging more build diversity. It’s just that all the new GM traits seem sub-optimal compared to existing build options, they add nothing new. Revealed Training might see use in one shot wonder glass gank builds, but that’s it.

I get a similar impression having looked at new traits in other classes. A few exceptions Necros, cough, cough. Actually a little concerned necromancers will dominate after the patch: they’re getting new heal skills and will dominate any shift towards condition builds resulting from the ferocity change.

Revealed Training – Nice for D/D PvE builds but pretty useless for everything else. Doesn’t mesh well with any existing builds or play-styles really to be very attractive in PvP/WvW.

Invigorating Precision – Another trait for passive healing. Assassin’s Reward isn’t popular and Signet of Malice is highly situational. We simply don’t need passive healing. Any Crit-focused build is probably a glass-cannon anyway and they either get one-shot or kill quick. There’s no point in mixing Crit with sustain.

Resilience of Shadows – I’ll have to see how this works out in practice. Could potentially be quite strong, but you don’t tend to get hit in stealth that often.

Assassin’s Equilibrium – 1.3 seconds of Stability is too short to achieve anything. While in theory it’s an interesting trait I don’t see any builds or play-styles that could somehow put it to use.

Bewildering Ambush – Nice for condition builds that can’t afford Perplexity Runes. Don’t see it being used much by anyone else though.

Usless GM traits!!!

All quite underwhelming, most because of the other (and better) choices in that spot.

Revealed Training: PvE trait I guess. 200 power is not worth is if you can invest trait points elsewhere.

Invigorating Precision: Why take this over HK or Executioner? Maybe with the new Sigil of Intelligence? Would still lose damage.

Resilience of Shadows: For them zerg thieves. I don’t see how this will do much of anything else, as you should not get hit in stealth anyway. Also has to compete with a very good trait.

Assassin’s Equilibirum: No.

Bewildering Ambush: I only see Bewildering Ambush getting much use from the already cheese as hell Perplex P/D thief. Although swapping out SoH will reduce abilities with perplexity, which kind of beats the purpose. I’d still go with SoH.

Will any of this help P/P?

Updated the original post. Thanks for the feedback so far! Please let me know if I’ve missed any.

One thing people continue to overlook is the ability to retrain traits on the fly. It is not a “why would I take trait XXXX when I can have YYYY”.

As example someone with 20 in Shadow arts would not have even selected a GM trait.

You are at a gate dealing with AOE on rams and one of those manning the rams dies.

You load up this trait (resilience of shadows) and sit in that AOE under a shadow refuge and heal him.

I will also switch to a SB at a castle gates to lay down poison on the walls and then cluster bomb the same. With the 900 range this means you have to get close and stand in that AOE. This will allow me to get a lot of shots off before I have to pull back using shadows refuge.

The same thing defending when I want to put damage down on the siege. I can now stand in those aoe fields and get more attacks off from my refuge.

These traits do not have to replace one a person currently has selected. They can nicely complement them.

There are situations where having 30 in CS or Acrobatics or Trickery does not help a person a heck of a lot. Pull out of battle retrait to what is most useful at the time and use that trait to maximize advantages for that situation.

(So that got me to wondering.
What happens if I am traited to venomshare and load that up on a team, pull from battle and trait another spec?)

That changing on the fly is a very significant change and any debate on GM traits and how useful they would be have to take that into consideration.

babazhook.6805:

(So that got me to wondering.
What happens if I am traited to venomshare and load that up on a team, pull from battle and trait another spec?)

I expect them to stay.

Something similar is happening today with engineers where they can change utilities to get toolbelt skill and then they change back to their normal utilities and the effect from the toolbelt skill still stays. So you can temporarily switch to flamethrower to get Incendiary Ammo, Elixir S for stealth, etc., etc. right before fight begins. So I would be surprised if in case of traits it were clearing the buffs, but we will never know until the patch hits.

kubetz.3058:

babazhook.6805:

(So that got me to wondering.
What happens if I am traited to venomshare and load that up on a team, pull from battle and trait another spec?)

I expect them to stay.

Nuuuuu! I really hope that isn’t the case. Actually, I’m quite confident ANet will make sure this doesn’t happen. There were issues in the past with Rangers swapping traits in the middle of PvP games so they could layer multiple traps, but those were fixed. Although, removing venoms from allies upon switching a spec sounds quite problematic to implement. Maybe they won’t allow swapping traits while your allies have the venom buff?

Rome.3192:

There were issues in the past with Rangers swapping traits in the middle of PvP games so they could layer multiple traps, but those were fixed. Although, removing venoms from allies upon switching a spec sounds quite problematic to implement. Maybe they won’t allow swapping traits while your allies have the venom buff?

I doubt blocking trait switching even out-of-combat when somebody got venom buff from you will be easy to implement either.

I am not sure if it is that high on their priority list. Engineers having the ability to put Incendiary Ammo on which is a LOT of burning without being locked into the Flamethrower Kit is also annoying, but only few of them are doing that and unless thieves will start doing venom share switching en masse I don’t expect ANet to give things like that high priority. It all depends on the amount of QQ.

But maybe they somehow managed to handle this things properly in the feature patch. We will see.

Shadow Arts: Resilience of Shadows- In WvW, stealth the people on rams who also have iron hide for a lot of damage reduction. It is also possible to stealth gates/siege weapons/walls so stealth those for reduced damage. Maybe the rams and ram users will now survive long enough to take down the gate. Stack up and blast smoke fields to lead a zerg through a choke point full of AC’s with 50% reduced damage. Stack stealth before a portal bomb. Using AC’s while in stealth doesn’t trigger revealed, so fire your AC away or get on a ram and stealth yourself for reduced damage.

My thoughts on this trait: Seems legit.

I’m having trouble seeing why people are calling RoS meh. Tht trait sounds like it will get a lot of hate from the damage dealing end.