Guild Wars 2

Hello!

I’ve been playing a bit with CS instead of DA lately (with superior rune of rage for perm fury and +5% damage while in fury, also nice mightstacking with the new traits when you gain fury. You can easly reach and maintain 15-ish stacks of might for a nice boost to power).

I feel like the auto attacks hit for higher numbers, and can get some nasty backstabs as well.

Then there’s the damage modifiers in DA, which is higher then CS on paper.

Anyone else tested/got some feedback on this matter?

Depends on what you’re trying to do. I’m assuming this is for PvP/WvW as otherwise CS has been meta.

CS has the potential for higher damage per hit, but the question asked is “at what cost?”

The utility from DA is really what makes the kit fantastic. In a PvP setting, Lotus is basically a 50% drop in incoming power damage, you get a heal cut on steal, a passive immob with no cast, a chunky burst and decent heal on steal, and improv allowing cooldown resets on utils and some mean interactions like chaining the stolen necro fear or double-stacking all boons from mesmer.

It’s for that reason CS isn’t really utilized for competitive; you gain some damage which is nice, but ultimately the huge lack of utility and the extra burst from Mug make DA better at everything a thief needs to win a fight in PvP.

The utility in DA is overrated.

Lotus poison is only of real use in a build with high poison access while at the same time having no weakness sources of its own. If I happen to be in staff or sword/x as a weapon there NO poison and ready weakness access. Taking DA for Lotus (weakness) is akin to taking TOTC for swiftness when one has UC traited.

IP has a much higher heal and one that is ongoing. Again the ICD on MUG has to be considered. Where IP is always running and has no ICD , Mug only works when steal off cooldown. Executioner is another skill not active half the time in a typical fight as is Panic strike. The heal off IP is exponentially greater than what one gets off mug and especially when one is using cleave or AOE.

In sum total taking traits like Mug, Panic strike improv and Executioner is taking Multiple traits that are all on high ICD meaning they are NOT available for use for the majority of time. The Mug, The Poison on steal (thus lotus poison) the Panic strike , are all on ICDS of at least 20 seconds each. My feeling is having one or two traits on a high ICD is fine , but taking an entire line tied to an ICD lowers effectiveness.

That said given D/x has poison in the AA , the DA line would be preferable to that set and if in a Condition build DA obviously a better choice.

There are no boons offerred in DA unless one traits up traps and deadly trapper.

The BOONS in CS can in fact offer greater “utility” IMO as you are freed up from sourcing via another source. As example if taking No quarter you can then trait Lesser Haste (Burst of agility) and gain quickness.

You will not only have access to more quickness, but have all but full time Fury access as opposed to the typical DA build at 50 percent. You will have an ongoing might fueler and the combination of might access and full time fury can better free you up to select Gear that focuses on something other than Ferocity and precision. This flexibility allows better tuning in your build. Power , precision and ferocity , the big three Stats of all power builds are all readily available out of CS, a single traitline , while DA can only get you Power in very specific builds. This means more room to mix in vitality or toughness or boon durations via gear.

As to that added “burst” out of Mug, yes it real nice to have and can often finish a fight at range , but it can just as easily be nullified by all of those passives that kick in when someones health in danger. Mug to a Warrior that sees defy pain kick in and what happens?

Finally if you taking Assassins fury you might wish to consider Runes of Evasion. These give you fury on dodge. Couple these with Acro and you now have an added source of swiftness. Given Acro has 16 percent base boon duration if you tweak that duration via gear a bit more (which going acro allows you much more readily) you can even have more Might in your build along with pushing swiftness to full time.

The Fury apps that occur on dodge will apply more might stacks and while this has an ICD you are all but guaranteed 3+ apps just off dodge. Due to this combination of added might , fury and swiftness source, IP becomes even easier to use.

DeceiverX.8361:

Depends on what you’re trying to do. I’m assuming this is for PvP/WvW as otherwise CS has been meta.

CS has the potential for higher damage per hit, but the question asked is “at what cost?”

The utility from DA is really what makes the kit fantastic. In a PvP setting, Lotus is basically a 50% drop in incoming power damage, you get a heal cut on steal, a passive immob with no cast, a chunky burst and decent heal on steal, and improv allowing cooldown resets on utils and some mean interactions like chaining the stolen necro fear or double-stacking all boons from mesmer.

It’s for that reason CS isn’t really utilized for competitive; you gain some damage which is nice, but ultimately the huge lack of utility and the extra burst from Mug make DA better at everything a thief needs to win a fight in PvP.

You are NOT getting a 50 percent drop in damage via lotus. The 50 percent drop in damage only happens .5 percent of the time. Added to that if tied to the steal for Lotus to kicjk in because there no poison in your weaponset , this drops by a factor of 4+ so that in real times that “50 percent less damage” happens less then 10 percent of the time assuming the wekness not cleansed.

If one is in sword or staff, or traits DrD for weakening strikes, one can apply weakness at will and will have a much higher weakness uptime than those relying on Lotus for the same. The full time fury add of CS will esnure weakening strikes kicks in at a higher rate.

DA’s weakness advantage is tied directly to the d/x weaponsets or one traiting poison via impairing daggers or spider venom.

Baba you’re just factually wrong in nearly every single point you just made. So far off in fact it’s a waste to even try and pick apart your post content.

Particularly on the weakness mechanic of “only working 5% of the time.”

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Weakness

I’m sorry but no, DA has synergy with all power builds and 20s cooldowns are lower than what almost every other profession has and the effects for what they are are almost like having a second set of utilities, while also letting other kits outside of D/X to get some setup time while boasting a huge tactical advantage. Honestly, you shouldn’t even need more than one proc.

Even for IP to heal as much as Mug you’d be needing to push 15k damage which depending on the matchup favors Mug in terms of heals per time. IP might heal more if and when your damage lands, but a power thief shouldn’t be engaged long enough for it to be of much use.

Havoc Mastery offsets the gains from CS if you really want the damage, or take the physical skills trait foe better heals/endurance regen.

There’s a reason every recent power build runs DA for PvP. I’ve been playing DA+CS for five years and know most of my success comes from DA of the two.

CS yield more dmg output if your hits crit. as it depands on crit attack. while DA gives direct dmg sources and immobilize mainly.

thus weakness is the big wrack of the CS trait line as your attack wont crit.

also CS does more dmg above 50% hp while DA does more dmg below 50% hp.

DeceiverX you are obviously not doing the math and fail to understand what the ICDs in the DA line translate to.

Do you understand how lotus poison works? It only works on the application of poison.

On weaponsets that have no poison access this means that unless another posion source traited they can only apply poison ince every 21 seconds. This means weakness can only be applied once every 21 seconds. Weakness via lotus only runs for 4 seconds.

4/21 is 19 percent weakness uptime. Weakness causes fumble only 50 percent of the time and so you divide this further by two for under 10 percent . In other words you can only get that FUMBLE 9+ percent of the timein that 21 second period. For 17 seconds out of 21 there no weakness at all. You then have to presume that there no cleanses and that the enemy is continually attacking and hitting during the entirety of the weakness uptime to claim you are taking 50 percent less damage.

You claimed Lotus poison is a 50 percent decrease to incoming damage which is simply false as it can not be maintained 100 percent of the time on the weapons I indicated unless you trait other poison sources. Uptime is a fraction of hat.

You also do not seem to understand that s/x and staff already have internal sources of weakness which can be applied at will. A person can apply weakness when he needs it and on demand and does not have to wait until his next steal to do so when using these sets which is UNLIKE d/x. Why would I need to wait to steal to apply weakness when it on my AA chain in sword?

To mug your reply shows just how unable you are to understand that same ICD. Your MUG happens every 21 seconds. Are you seriously claiming that I can not do 15k damage in 21 seconds? If you are only generating 15k damage in 21 seconds you might as well pack up and go home.

In 21 seconds I can easily get off 9+ UNLOADS from p/p at 10k each. In 21 seconds I can easily get off multiple vaults and multiple AA attacks in staff. I am sorry but you are not hitting once and then running around doing nothing for the next 20 seconds. Staff and p/p both have you engaged and doing damage a lot more frequently then that. They do not function like d/x.

When I get quickness on which i can do more readily due to the fact I am taking CS and not tied to TOTC for Fury, I can generate huge damage on cleave out of my staff AA which can take me 1 second to run the whole chain and easily do well over10k damage against 2 foes. That is a 1500 heal in one second. Are you seriously suggesting Mug a better heal?

You are too fixated on d/X builds. I do not think you have played p/p or staff or for that matter even s/x enough to understand that they are not tied as much to DA and can garner tremendous benefits from the CS line. The OP indicated he gets 15 stacks might maintained out of CD with the new trait. That is 450 more power and that is significant.

Okay, so you’re operating under the assumption that the weakness uptime is only 9% if the target is constantly attacking you for 21s straight, and yet you criticize my argument on the basis that a target would never attack you for 21s straight.

Those [four] seconds after stealing into melee range to engage in a fight are often what defines if a thief lives or dies in combat. It doesn’t matter what build they play. That weakness enables an engage and a turn-and-burn while leaving your enemy largely incapable of killing you unless they either get lucky on a huge nuke or the thief is downright bad.

The poison application on weapon skills is irrelevant because you’re not trying to trait into permanent weakness.

The weakness on sword AA while permanent is caused via the third hit in the chain. Ask any good S/D thief how often they can manage to keep applying three-hit chains especially when engaging for the first time. Big surprise, but the applied weakness from DA enables the subsequent sword weakness application by cutting enemy dodges and enabling the thief to play more aggressive after a steal application because they’ll be taking less damage if they end up on the receiving end of an attack. You’re not looking at this big-picture. The only kit that doesn’t really benefit from it is P/P because it probably doesn’t want to use steal as a melee engage for any other reason than desperation or for some kind of proc/interrupt. Either way, it still enables a safer disengage into range via taking less damage if struck, and further, PS is a free Body Shot except better which allows better initiative management for further Unloads for more damage while your opponent can’t dodge.

Regarding Mug, go fight a DH or FA ele or M/S Warrior with double Ep/DP or D/x thief utilizing stealth and tell me how much damage you generate in 21s. 15k will nearly kill a Marauder build of three of those, but odds are they’re not going to be within your ability to attack for a majority of that time, either via invulns, blocks, or stealth. You also gain no healing off the warrior while hitting for 0, and you’d need that much damage in a single hit at instant speed to generate the health as quickly as Mug does. Why do I need to keep reiterating to people that PvP is not a DPS race? The heals only end up good if your target stands idle for half the fight or is running a build with a weakness to what you’re running, which isn’t a good basis for comparison because if we’re going to argue that I could justify that the old signet thief was the best build in the game. PvP is not about how much damage you can do but how much damage your target can receive at a given point in time, and how well you can do to manage to budget out your time to cover your frames of weakness.

You’re going to want ToTC for fury unless you run NQ, in which case you’re not taking IP to make US last more than kitten which GM trait are you picking?

I’ve played almost every thief build conceivable, including P/P cleric’s healing on-hit SA venoms which I went undefeated for several weeks in 1v1 tourneys because it could literally facetank anything. I don’t even play shortbow because I played S/D as signet DA/CS/Tr as a primary set. My D/D experience was literally limited to backstab bursts to end fights and killing thieves when I needed the higher attack speed to counter blind; I used S/D for everything else because the rest of D/D is and has been garbage. I talk about D/D a lot because it’s more fun to play and because it’s the worst of every kit due to its inherent design flaws. I’d like to see that changed because flavorful and fun kits shouldn’t be put on the backburner and because I care about the thief as a whole.

CS is in a better place as a standalone damage trait line (as opposed to DA) than it was prior, but there is no contest between it and the utility and burst capability DA offers. It’s extremely strong now in PvE because it works so well in sustained attacking/combat environments, but it’s not as good as DA for PvP unless your opponent doesn’t know how to play.

my view on the crit line after spending a little time with it is i like it for P/P you build yourself pretty tanky with it i do not see how it would be really useful any other type of weapon set.

Taobella.6597:

my view on the crit line after spending a little time with it is i like it for P/P you build yourself pretty tanky with it i do not see how it would be really useful any other type of weapon set.

CS also works fine with staff due to the cleave and the AOE. A P/P Staff build does much better in CS.

Two Unloads can now fill my might to full this lasting a full 13 seconds. I can switch over to staff and stay in it until the 10 second cooldown gone running at 25 might even as quickness kicks in for 10 seconds each out of lesser haste or haste.

Choosing either NQ or IP works equally well dependent on how the rest of your build structured. With that quickness running while in staff the heals from IP can really ramp up OR you can ensure full time fury will in either weaponset.

If I open from the flank my initial unload will load 10 seconds quickness, 13 seconds fury and stack on 14 might for 13 seconds with one attack. If the channel hits for the entirty (and the quickness helps this happen) I am refunded 2 ini for a cost of 3 ini total.

A swap with QP puts my INI back at full with staff now having all those goodies with all my other utilities as yet untouched. (this WvW as I do not PvP)

DeceiverX.8361:

Okay, so you’re operating under the assumption that the weakness uptime is only 9% if the target is constantly attacking you for 21s straight, and yet you criticize my argument on the basis that a target would never attack you for 21s straight.

Those [four] seconds after stealing into melee range to engage in a fight are often what defines if a thief lives or dies in combat. It doesn’t matter what build they play. That weakness enables an engage and a turn-and-burn while leaving your enemy largely incapable of killing you unless they either get lucky on a huge nuke or the thief is downright bad.

The poison application on weapon skills is irrelevant because you’re not trying to trait into permanent weakness.

The weakness on sword AA while permanent is caused via the third hit in the chain. Ask any good S/D thief how often they can manage to keep applying three-hit chains especially when engaging for the first time. Big surprise, but the applied weakness from DA enables the subsequent sword weakness application by cutting enemy dodges and enabling the thief to play more aggressive after a steal application because they’ll be taking less damage if they end up on the receiving end of an attack. You’re not looking at this big-picture. The only kit that doesn’t really benefit from it is P/P because it probably doesn’t want to use steal as a melee engage for any other reason than desperation or for some kind of proc/interrupt. Either way, it still enables a safer disengage into range via taking less damage if struck, and further, PS is a free Body Shot except better which allows better initiative management for further Unloads for more damage while your opponent can’t dodge.

Regarding Mug, go fight a DH or FA ele or M/S Warrior with double Ep/DP or D/x thief utilizing stealth and tell me how much damage you generate in 21s. 15k will nearly kill a Marauder build of three of those, but odds are they’re not going to be within your ability to attack for a majority of that time, either via invulns, blocks, or stealth. You also gain no healing off the warrior while hitting for 0, and you’d need that much damage in a single hit at instant speed to generate the health as quickly as Mug does. Why do I need to keep reiterating to people that PvP is not a DPS race? The heals only end up good if your target stands idle for half the fight or is running a build with a weakness to what you’re running, which isn’t a good basis for comparison because if we’re going to argue that I could justify that the old signet thief was the best build in the game. PvP is not about how much damage you can do but how much damage your target can receive at a given point in time, and how well you can do to manage to budget out your time to cover your frames of weakness.

You’re going to want ToTC for fury unless you run NQ, in which case you’re not taking IP to make US last more than kitten which GM trait are you picking?

I’ve played almost every thief build conceivable, including P/P cleric’s healing on-hit SA venoms which I went undefeated for several weeks in 1v1 tourneys because it could literally facetank anything. I don’t even play shortbow because I played S/D as signet DA/CS/Tr as a primary set. My D/D experience was literally limited to backstab bursts to end fights and killing thieves when I needed the higher attack speed to counter blind; I used S/D for everything else because the rest of D/D is and has been garbage. I talk about D/D a lot because it’s more fun to play and because it’s the worst of every kit due to its inherent design flaws. I’d like to see that changed because flavorful and fun kits shouldn’t be put on the backburner and because I care about the thief as a whole.

CS is in a better place as a standalone damage trait line (as opposed to DA) than it was prior, but there is no contest between it and the utility and burst capability DA offers. It’s extremely strong now in PvE because it works so well in sustained attacking/combat environments, but it’s not as good as DA for PvP unless your opponent doesn’t know how to play.

I am NOT going to need TOTC if I do not take NQ. I have a base crit rate of 60+ percent pre fury. I Can get 10 seconds fury off haste nd lesser haste EACH and over 6 seconds fury off Unrelenting. I also have near full time swiftness so why do I need TOTC? For that might stack? I can sit at 25 stacks of might at will.

This gives me the ability to have 10 seconds quickness from lesser haste, (something you are not getting from DA) with that IP heal OR take the NQ for 250 more ferocity and full time fury with that quickness, something you are not getting out of da.

The build that needs TOTC is one taking DA because it has no other fury sources . You are the same guy insisting Dire armor too OP. Well your “saving it all up for one 4 second burst” does not seem to work. Maybe you should change your build .

And I am not talking about PvP. I do not care about PVp. PvP is kitten by its amulet system.

babazhook.6805:

Taobella.6597:

my view on the crit line after spending a little time with it is i like it for P/P you build yourself pretty tanky with it i do not see how it would be really useful any other type of weapon set.

CS also works fine with staff due to the cleave and the AOE. A P/P Staff build does much better in CS.

Two Unloads can now fill my might to full this lasting a full 13 seconds. I can switch over to staff and stay in it until the 10 second cooldown gone running at 25 might even as quickness kicks in for 10 seconds each out of lesser haste or haste.

Choosing either NQ or IP works equally well dependent on how the rest of your build structured. With that quickness running while in staff the heals from IP can really ramp up OR you can ensure full time fury will in either weaponset.

If I open from the flank my initial unload will load 10 seconds quickness, 13 seconds fury and stack on 14 might for 13 seconds with one attack. If the channel hits for the entirty (and the quickness helps this happen) I am refunded 2 ini for a cost of 3 ini total.

A swap with QP puts my INI back at full with staff now having all those goodies with all my other utilities as yet untouched. (this WvW as I do not PvP)

yeah if you are going p/p you pretty much gotta commit to quickness but yeah i pretty much agree with your view on crit line.

By PvP I refer to all player-versus-player game modes. sPvP is its own thing.

DA can generate fury by using Haste just like you described a CS build would, Baba. I don’t really see how you’re saying DA doesn’t have access to Fury by using an example of a fury-giving utility; it doesn’t make sense to use that argument. You can take Lesser Haste but the fury is shorter and it procs on a back-attack versus on-demand with steal; depending on how and who you fight and where that can mean a lot, and I like to make no assumptions about engage angles for things to work (what if someone else gets the jump on you?), but I digress.

Don’t get me wrong, CS is strong with pistols, and it has been for a while given its damage modifiers and NQ having great synergy with multi-hit channels in midrange fights. I just think the utility is still much more worthwhile on DA than the small potential damage bump in CS on these builds. Mug makes the burst a hell of a lot cleaner, and improv does absolute work in a lot of fights.

Taobella.6597:

babazhook.6805:

Taobella.6597:

my view on the crit line after spending a little time with it is i like it for P/P you build yourself pretty tanky with it i do not see how it would be really useful any other type of weapon set.

CS also works fine with staff due to the cleave and the AOE. A P/P Staff build does much better in CS.

Two Unloads can now fill my might to full this lasting a full 13 seconds. I can switch over to staff and stay in it until the 10 second cooldown gone running at 25 might even as quickness kicks in for 10 seconds each out of lesser haste or haste.

Choosing either NQ or IP works equally well dependent on how the rest of your build structured. With that quickness running while in staff the heals from IP can really ramp up OR you can ensure full time fury will in either weaponset.

If I open from the flank my initial unload will load 10 seconds quickness, 13 seconds fury and stack on 14 might for 13 seconds with one attack. If the channel hits for the entirty (and the quickness helps this happen) I am refunded 2 ini for a cost of 3 ini total.

A swap with QP puts my INI back at full with staff now having all those goodies with all my other utilities as yet untouched. (this WvW as I do not PvP)

yeah if you are going p/p you pretty much gotta commit to quickness but yeah i pretty much agree with your view on crit line.

Apologies. While the basis of my argument the same I conflated two builds here. That said the scenario still applies.

The build I refer to above with its quickness fury and the like added is in fact a new build using p/p and CS , Acro, TR core with SD opposing hand. This allows me quickness on the AA of sword and yes easily applies weakness.

The alternate build does much the same but I tend to start in staff and shift to Pistol then back again. This because the p/p set carries a sigil of concentration increasing boons by 33 percent when in pistol. It the older CS, DrD , trickery. As such both sets are using that same sigil of concentration in their respective builds which can in fact allow even higher boon durations if I pay attention as to when to swap.

Together I get some 10 seconds quickness on the new haste with a 24 second cooldown and 10 seconds on lesser haste with a 48 second cooldown. Unlike the scenario of “burst for 4 seconds” then withdraw, i can maintain pressure and generate excellent damage for a longer period of time. I am not tied to that 4 second window and it apparent this the reason so many other claim Dire as OP. They can not finish the person in dire in that 4 seconds so allow him time to recover.

DeceiverX.8361:

By PvP I refer to all player-versus-player game modes. sPvP is its own thing.

DA can generate fury by using Haste just like you described a CS build would, Baba. I don’t really see how you’re saying DA doesn’t have access to Fury by using an example of a fury-giving utility; it doesn’t make sense to use that argument. You can take Lesser Haste but the fury is shorter and it procs on a back-attack versus on-demand with steal; depending on how and who you fight and where that can mean a lot, and I like to make no assumptions about engage angles for things to work (what if someone else gets the jump on you?), but I digress.

Don’t get me wrong, CS is strong with pistols, and it has been for a while given its damage modifiers and NQ having great synergy with multi-hit channels in midrange fights. I just think the utility is still much more worthwhile on DA than the small potential damage bump in CS on these builds. Mug makes the burst a hell of a lot cleaner, and improv does absolute work in a lot of fights.

No I am talking about LESSER haste in place of TOTC. I am also talking about high damage over a greater period of time then your Mug and 4 second window gives you which is what you need to take down heavier armored classes. The lesser haste in my build gives 10 seconds fury, 10 seconds swiftness and 10 seconds swiftness. This is the same as TOTC base. It cna go higher if I swap to Pistol when i proc it so that it peaks at 12 seconds of each. I do not have a lot of problems hitting targets from the side or rear.

Lesser haste (burst of Agility) and haste are separate sources of Quickness, of swiftness and of fury. When one traits assassins fury they also will in fact add 3 stacks of might for +90 power. I am using all that to trigger muiltple instances of boons and greater damage. No matter the weapon set, I can then trigger even more fury out of NQ if wished every 2 seconds which again gives Might every two seconds or generate a heal on over 80 percent of all attacks that hit.

This means that even if not in the p/p set I can keep up those mihgt stacks should I choose the NQ route.

This is far different from the scenario you outline where you wait for the Mug to come off cooldown in an attempt to land the bulk of your damage in a 4 second period.

Given my higher access to Precision (fury) , Power (might) and Ferocity , I am able to tweak my gear to a much greater extent so as to allow more vitality or toughness or even boon duration without overly compromising damage output.

In my case this means taking some Wanderers armor which adds boon duration , toughness and vitality wherein the loss of ferocity and precision is made up for with the ferocity line coupled with the 700 extra power I run around with due to might.