Guild Wars 2

With the introduction of Larcenous Strike a lot of thieves started to run S/D and here we are:
2 seconds of daze every 3 seconds …
So i figure soon there will be a “nerf daze” cryfest.

Opinions ?

Ever heard of a self-fullfilling prophecy?

Sword is fine.

Sarrow.2785:

Ever heard of a self-fullfilling prophecy?

Sword is fine.

Right! on both.
Fear of things attract them, like a magnet does to my adamant dagger.

Anywayi fear it’ll be like that
People will whine forever bout thieves, no matter whats the issue.

My idea is to start running always with a thief friend, to mitigate the nerfs.

1 1/2 second every 4~5 seconds actually (CnD+tacti takes ~1sec cast). Mesmer runes and Para sigils are currently broken.
That’s of course if you don’t dodge either hit.
Unless you mean that imbalanced zerg fest you call WvW.

Judging by anet’s typical solutions, it’s more likely that they’ll just nerf sword autoattack damage by 30%, not fixing the daze spam “problem” while also crippling PvE thieves and S/P thieves for no reason.

actualy sword damage is mediocre
is an weapon that lack burst, and if enemy dodge 2 CND already destroy all your rotation.
Haven’t played sword /x but never had real problems against that builds

Vargs.6234:

Judging by anet’s typical solutions, it’s more likely that they’ll just nerf sword autoattack damage by 30%, not fixing the daze spam “problem” while also crippling PvE thieves and S/P thieves for no reason.

Daze spam problem ? Probably playing a completely different class because daze spam on Thief is impossible maybe vs AFK players or NPC =)

Daendur.2357:

With the introduction of Larcenous Strike a lot of thieves started to run S/D and here we are:
2 seconds of daze every 3 seconds …
So i figure soon there will be a “nerf daze” cryfest.

Opinions ?

Actually it is every 4 seconds, normally more cuz the thief those in a FS before CnD, and if the thief manages to land ALL his CnD AND tactical strike on you, then the problem is not the thief…

Actually the next nerf will be to p/p lol. Just joking… Or am i?

Volrath.1473:

Daendur.2357:

With the introduction of Larcenous Strike a lot of thieves started to run S/D and here we are:
2 seconds of daze every 3 seconds …
So i figure soon there will be a “nerf daze” cryfest.

Opinions ?

Actually it is every 4 seconds, normally more cuz the thief those in a FS before CnD, and if the thief manages to land ALL his CnD AND tactical strike on you, then the problem is not the thief…

Well, the 2 second long daze every 4 seconds is a bit too much. Two well synced thieves could daze lock a target. And at least in my tier thieves usually run in pairs.

Expect a nerf coming and changing it in WvWvW to 1.5 s duration daze like it is in pvp.

The biggest problem is the Cloak & Dagger skill. It is simply overpowered in a WvWvW setting. Doing too much in one skill: high damage, vulnerability and 3 s stealth, all in one skill which costs only 6-2=4 initiative with infusion of shadow trait. For pvp this might be fine, but WvWvW maps are much bigger and fights much more chaotic and there are lot of cute deers and whatever forest animals you can use to trigger C&D to get stealth on demand.

Sword really isn’t that great. Sure, a great player will be dangerous with it (as with any weapon set), but it still isn’t as strong as d/d or d/p.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Volrath.1473:

Daendur.2357:

With the introduction of Larcenous Strike a lot of thieves started to run S/D and here we are:
2 seconds of daze every 3 seconds …
So i figure soon there will be a “nerf daze” cryfest.

Opinions ?

Actually it is every 4 seconds, normally more cuz the thief those in a FS before CnD, and if the thief manages to land ALL his CnD AND tactical strike on you, then the problem is not the thief…

Well, the 2 second long daze every 4 seconds is a bit too much. Two well synced thieves could daze lock a target. And at least in my tier thieves usually run in pairs.

Expect a nerf coming and changing it in WvWvW to 1.5 s duration daze like it is in pvp.

The biggest problem is the Cloak & Dagger skill. It is simply overpowered in a WvWvW setting. Doing too much in one skill: high damage, vulnerability and 3 s stealth, all in one skill which costs only 6-2=4 initiative with infusion of shadow trait. For pvp this might be fine, but WvWvW maps are much bigger and fights much more chaotic and there are lot of cute deers and whatever forest animals you can use to trigger C&D to get stealth on demand.

well heres half ur problem with the skill…..vulnerability is low and barely a differnce of what llike 45 dmg? :P and thats after anyway. 2nd the skill costs 6…not 4…..u have to look at the skill by itself…not traited….or half of the classes F skills would be nerfed :P…..6 initiative is half our pool…..if we miss (which is atleast 50%) we are in big trouble. its a very slow action so easy to dodge block and evade. the skill itself is fine….not trying to be mean but thieves are easier than ever to kill right now. they really dont have much of a place in wvw or spvp/tpvp right now. L2 kitten ue.

Travlane.5948:

Deniara Devious.3948:

Volrath.1473:

Daendur.2357:

With the introduction of Larcenous Strike a lot of thieves started to run S/D and here we are:
2 seconds of daze every 3 seconds …
So i figure soon there will be a “nerf daze” cryfest.

Opinions ?

Actually it is every 4 seconds, normally more cuz the thief those in a FS before CnD, and if the thief manages to land ALL his CnD AND tactical strike on you, then the problem is not the thief…

Well, the 2 second long daze every 4 seconds is a bit too much. Two well synced thieves could daze lock a target. And at least in my tier thieves usually run in pairs.

Expect a nerf coming and changing it in WvWvW to 1.5 s duration daze like it is in pvp.

The biggest problem is the Cloak & Dagger skill. It is simply overpowered in a WvWvW setting. Doing too much in one skill: high damage, vulnerability and 3 s stealth, all in one skill which costs only 6-2=4 initiative with infusion of shadow trait. For pvp this might be fine, but WvWvW maps are much bigger and fights much more chaotic and there are lot of cute deers and whatever forest animals you can use to trigger C&D to get stealth on demand.

well heres half ur problem with the skill…..vulnerability is low and barely a differnce of what llike 45 dmg? :P and thats after anyway. 2nd the skill costs 6…not 4…..u have to look at the skill by itself…not traited….or half of the classes F skills would be nerfed :P…..6 initiative is half our pool…..if we miss (which is atleast 50%) we are in big trouble. its a very slow action so easy to dodge block and evade. the skill itself is fine….not trying to be mean but thieves are easier than ever to kill right now. they really dont have much of a place in wvw or spvp/tpvp right now. L2 kitten ue.

I think he/she was being sarcastic…

Hmm. What we really need is for Arenanet to get a contract with the company, perhaps similar to the one Pelican had for a while, to advertise the N-Strike line ( I think it was N-Strike that had the melee stuff, anyway). They’ve got some rather nice-looking sword and axe designs, and I’d love to see my Asura waving them around in game—and/or brandishing a pair of Maverick pistols or something. :-)

Sword has some awesome survival, annoyance and agility now. It has no burst though and still has difficulty taking down some sustain builds.

Zeoli.3402:

Actually the next nerf will be to p/p lol. Just joking… Or am i?

Considering what happened to caltrops and shortbow it wouldn’t be surprising they nerf more random things like p/p.

Cloak and Dagger isn’t OP because it’s actually often difficult to land in a WvW skirmish unless you’re fighting a moron, someone left handed, a keyboard turner or someone with an awful PC.

style.6173:

Sword really isn’t that great. Sure, a great player will be dangerous with it (as with any weapon set), but it still isn’t as strong as d/d or d/p.

Doggie.3184:

Sword has some awesome survival, annoyance and agility now. It has no burst though and still has difficulty taking down some sustain builds.

Running full GC S/D build I rarely lose to D/D or D/P in tpvp unless they catch me off guard at 50% health while fighting someone else.

Sword/Dagger is on par with D/D spike now, maybe even better because you don’’t have to rely on stealth and can steal boons. Or maybe I’m just one of those good players XD.

Doggie.3184:

Sword has some awesome survival, annoyance and agility now. It has no burst though and still has difficulty taking down some sustain builds.

Zeoli.3402:

Actually the next nerf will be to p/p lol. Just joking… Or am i?

Considering what happened to caltrops and shortbow it wouldn’t be surprising they nerf more random things like p/p.

Cloak and Dagger isn’t OP because it’s actually often difficult to land in a WvW skirmish unless you’re fighting a moron, someone left handed, a keyboard turner or someone with an awful PC.

so true! i always sayits less than a 50% successful hit rate on CND. and if u miss ur ieither out of intiative…or close to it.

Absolutely hilarious. People still think Cloak and Dagger is overpowered.

However, larcenous strike really does need a nerf. Maybe remove the unblockable, reduce the number of boons it strips, or increase initiative. Right now it’s the new dagger mh 2.

IDK TEAMkiller….i disagree ….but WOULD agree if they increased auto attack speed….or tactical strike dmg…… 3 is spammed bc auto attack is slow…i personally like to time my FS LS but its hard bc auto attack is sooooooooo sloooooooooooow u can dodge between each strike lol….and i mean thats like guardian scepter slow…but thats just my opinion…make auto better and slightly more dmg on tactical then add 1 initiative to LS. boom then its balanced and no spamming….adding 1 extra intiative is like 2 less spammalbe rounds of ls if u were to go from 100% intiative to 0.

Don’t mind if you increase auto damage/speed. Might be somewhat difficult to increase speed due to almost all autos having a standard half second cast chain. In my opinion sword thieves were a little kitten from the get go and needed a buff, but the LS is way too much.

It would be nice if the auto attack speed gets buffed, I don’t see it happening though. Although it really isnt asking for too much if they restore PW damage on S/P. I dont know about anyone else but without S/P there was no way I would’ve leveled my thief in PvE, back when PW worked the way it should work.

Honestly though, the bread and butter skill of S/x is #2, IS/SS. This is in my opinion the best weapon skill in the thief’s arsenal. Tactical strike, FS/LS, CnD, these are all bells and whistles. I don’t care what they nerf but I will be FURIOUS if they mess with IS/SS

^ lol this. Inf strike is life.

Like I said, everything else about the s/d build is fine and it may actually benefit from some buffs. However, LS should change, imo. There’s very little reactive play involved in it.

That’s because it’s been frontloaded with all of the major effects except for the evade. So it is prioritized more. There isn’t that trade off anymore where the 1st hit has a lot of util in it, but the 2nd hit has all the damage. Your 2nd hit has everything but the evade so you can care less about the 1st hit.

Okay, then here’s another idea. For larcenous strike to actually be available to use, the player has to deal damage with the first part of the strike, flanking strike. If it is blocked evaded or missed then larcenous strike will not be available; you will have to use flanking strike again.

It would promote a lot more reactive play, imo. In return, buff the sword’s autoattack or sneak attack.

That’s terrible.

I agree with that, LS going off without FS hitting I think is something Anet will defn address. Makes no sense for a chain to go off if the first hit of a chain doesn’t connect

ensoriki.5789:

That’s terrible.

What why? It’s way too easy to access larcenous strike’s boon stripping capabilities at the moment. You don’t have to plan for ANYTHING tactical, just press 3 and LS is available for you to use next time you’re in range. Instead, now you have to plan your 3 strike instead of just spamming it.

Right now Sword 3 is less reactive than even HS. HS is worse than autoattack for targets with HP over 50%, so you wouldn’t spam it then. You can spam FS+LS without worry because not only does it do a very very acceptable level of damage but it strips boons from targets…which almost all targets have. Even if it doesn’t, it’s still worth spamming as long as the target’s in melee range because of its higher dps than auto and it being higher dps than all the other abilities in S/D. Not to mention the evade.

Its backwards progression from the original skill.

ensoriki.5789:

Its backwards progression from the original skill.

Your point? If someone gave FS 2 init cost and LS 0 init cost and steal all boons, that would be forward progression from the original skill. That doesn’t mean backwards progression is bad, in fact in the ridiculous hypothetical case I just outlined it would be essential because that kind of buff is game breaking, if you wanted to keep some semblance of the buff that is.

Or how about, since warriors are so bad for PvP, A-net gave them complete immunity to all conditions for Dogged March. Sure, that would be forwards progression, but again that kind of buff is game breaking, and backwards progression is sorely needed.

So, I’m going to call logical fallacy on your “logic”.

Im talking from literally a month ago. pre-change
It’s backwards progression.

As it is now
1) it is not a big deal
2) it is the way it is because of the amount of features LS has on it’s own vs FS.

Call logical fallacy if you want but I see your call as pig-headed.

FS was a hard to hit attack that removed a boon and was unblockable on the 1st hit which was relatively weak. However it had a second hit with the actual damage on it, you didn’t need to hit 1 to ensure the other. That’s how it’s always been. So you then say forget the ability for disjointed play that’s always been there. Linearize it.
Which really doesn’t do anything more than make it more shallow.

Naturally it’s going to be used twice or more with frequency because that’s the idea of the ini system. Back-to-back skill use. Wtf are you whining about?
Balance issues?
Again LS is front-loaded with the majority of the utility when it probably shouldn’t given how hard it’s always hit.

Or to use my actual train of thought. It’s like you saying “I don’t like how Dogged March works now, so let me make it functionally challenged.”

Give us heartseeker 900 range and itll all be over soon gooby

Your assumption was backwards progression is the reason that idea shouldn’t be put in place. Lol, you need to justify why backwards progression is bad in the first place, otherwise you’re presuming what you need to prove. It’s similar to circular logic, which is akin to “I’m right because I said so.”

You still do not need to hit 1 to ensure the other, you just have to press 3, and then larcenous strike is available for you to use. The entirety of your strategy now hinges on you being able to land larcenous strike, which if your target is in melee range is EXTREMELY easy since it is unblockable. Given its half second cast time it’s extremely hard to pull off a blind in time to counter it and one only gets two dodges while FS + LS can be used 4 times almost back to back. Basically there isn’t really counterplay involved because the thief can really just spam FS+LS and still benefit from it. He isn’t going to take much damage making it low risk because of FS’s evade, LS cannot be blocked, and if he forces a dodge out of you he’s still up because he can perform it four times whereas you only have two dodges. Blocking FS is useless because it doesn’t actually do anything except deny the thief YOUR aegis, if you were using that to block it. Vigor, you say? Oh, it’s gone because of LS. The only classes with enough boons to really still have them after the thief’s done spamming 333333333 are eles and guardians which this was supposed to counter (it doesn’t really); whereas the rest of the classes are now kinda screwed against a thief with their boons.

Not complaining about the ini system. Complaining about how relatively low risk and disproportionately beneficial it is to spam LS on all opponents regardless of their status. The heavy burst damage is now the unblockable portion, which is absolutely stupid.

I would be actually fine if you switched the damage on flanking strike and larcenous strike, but I feel like not getting larcenous if flanking is avoided is better for balance.

Teamkiller.4315:

Your assumption was backwards progression is the reason that idea shouldn’t be put in place. Lol, you need to justify why backwards progression is bad in the first place, otherwise you’re presuming what you need to prove. It’s similar to circular logic, which is akin to “I’m right because I said so.”

You still do not need to hit 1 to ensure the other, you just have to press 3, and then larcenous strike is available for you to use. The entirety of your strategy now hinges on you being able to land larcenous strike, which if your target is in melee range is EXTREMELY easy since it is unblockable. Given its half second cast time it’s extremely hard to pull off a blind in time to counter it and one only gets two dodges while FS + LS can be used 4 times almost back to back. Basically there isn’t really counterplay involved because the thief can really just spam FS+LS and still benefit from it. He isn’t going to take much damage making it low risk because of FS’s evade, LS cannot be blocked, and if he forces a dodge out of you he’s still up because he can perform it four times whereas you only have two dodges. Blocking FS is useless because it doesn’t actually do anything except deny the thief YOUR aegis, if you were using that to block it. Vigor, you say? Oh, it’s gone because of LS. The only classes with enough boons to really still have them after the thief’s done spamming 333333333 are eles and guardians which this was supposed to counter (it doesn’t really); whereas the rest of the classes are now kinda screwed against a thief with their boons.

Not complaining about the ini system. Complaining about how relatively low risk and disproportionately beneficial it is to spam LS on all opponents regardless of their status. The heavy burst damage is now the unblockable portion, which is absolutely stupid.

I would be actually fine if you switched the damage on flanking strike and larcenous strike, but I feel like not getting larcenous if flanking is avoided is better for balance.

If that happens, what’s not to stop things from reverting back to the old meta where only D/P is ever considered because FS is too hard to land? It’s already difficult to get an efficient kill with a sword. Why remove its only lethal edge again? You say “counterplay” but how counterplay equate to, “giving the opponent the upper hand”. Currently Flanking Strike, is a pretty clear warning that Larcenous Strike is coming. If it’s doing too well now, it’s probably because the general playerbase hasn’t adjusted to it yet, so why not wait and see if players learn to recognize and adjust to the tell?

You should read what I wrote once again. LS is too good for its low risk and cost.

It doesn’t even do what it’s supposed to, which was to give thieves a chance against guards and eles. Burst DD or Bunker D/P are superior. S/D’s boon hate now affects other enemies far worse than guardians and eles, because guardians and eles can just re boon extremely easily. (none of their boons lasted very long in spvp anyways, it was all about stacking them repeatedly). Whereas for example, one Larcenous strike could steal 2/3’s of the warrior’s elite, which was bad enough, and the warrior’s only real defense against that was to dodge, since his shield block wouldn’t affect LS.

Teamkiller.4315:

You should read what I wrote once again. LS is too good for its low risk and cost.

It doesn’t even do what it’s supposed to, which was to give thieves a chance against guards and eles. Burst DD or Bunker D/P are superior. S/D’s boon hate now affects other enemies far worse than guardians and eles, because guardians and eles can just re boon extremely easily. (none of their boons lasted very long in spvp anyways, it was all about stacking them repeatedly). Whereas for example, one Larcenous strike could steal 2/3’s of the warrior’s elite, which was bad enough, and the warrior’s only real defense against that was to dodge, since his shield block wouldn’t affect LS.

I agree with this logic. Larcenous strike should steal max 1 boon and have a higher initiative cost e.g. 2.

Thanks a bunch OP – see what you’ve done?

What have we come to when thieves start nerf thief threads..

@Teamkiller – you make some excellent points, and I agree that LS does appear to be an ability that lacks in counterplay. However you could argue the same for all thief abilities. Due to the ini system, LS / FS / HS etc can all be used more than the average player can dodge/block. Is it good play to spam an ability however? I would suggest not as it makes you easy to anticipate: A thief just used FS, therefore you know he’ll try to come in range to LS you. Don’t bother dodging or blocking – lose your boons like a man and take some damage, but make the thief pay when he comes into range. A good player, knowing the thief is coming in to LS, could take half his HP.

Thieves die quick. Counterplay = just kill the thief.

Yes, S/X offers better survivability than other weaponsets so the thief will last longer, however it also takes far longer for the thief to kill his opponent, therefore the player has more opportunity to kill the thief.

I would wait and see how things pan out. Too early to call either way IMO, though I’ve personally seen nothing that indicates sword is anything other than fine.

OP is wrong. People are complaining about stealth and the “lack-of-counter”.

Teamkiller.4315:

Okay, then here’s another idea. For larcenous strike to actually be available to use, the player has to deal damage with the first part of the strike, flanking strike. If it is blocked evaded or missed then larcenous strike will not be available; you will have to use flanking strike again.

TBH that’s the way it should work. According to interview and patch notes.
That skill is bugged now, and obviously abused.

Stealth is ours ability.

We have medium armor, what do you want? Charge like Guardian or Warrior in the middle of the zerg? OB our strenght is disappear and let the enemy focus on other player, maybe one with heavy armor.

Do you wanna talk about warrior combo immobilize-hit-hit-hit immobilize hit-hit-hit dead?

Teamkiller.4315:

ensoriki.5789:

That’s terrible.

What why? It’s way too easy to access larcenous strike’s boon stripping capabilities at the moment. You don’t have to plan for ANYTHING tactical, just press 3 and LS is available for you to use next time you’re in range. Instead, now you have to plan your 3 strike instead of just spamming it.

Right now Sword 3 is less reactive than even HS. HS is worse than autoattack for targets with HP over 50%, so you wouldn’t spam it then. You can spam FS+LS without worry because not only does it do a very very acceptable level of damage but it strips boons from targets…which almost all targets have. Even if it doesn’t, it’s still worth spamming as long as the target’s in melee range because of its higher dps than auto and it being higher dps than all the other abilities in S/D. Not to mention the evade.

Emphasis Mine.

Why is it, do you think, nearly every spec uses boons heavily? My take is that boons, prior to this patch, were extremely powerful with little to no effective counter. Anet realized this and made some adjustments – there should never be an ability without some sort of opportunity cost or counterplay – boons did not have effective counterplay, and the opportunity cost was rather low for the rewards reaped. Now, boon spamming specs have something to fear in S/D thief. They should also have something to fear in warrior, but from what I’ve heard (I’m no warrior expert), their boon hate buff wasn’t substantial.

The meta will shift when people realize the days of maxing out boon application and length are over – there is now a cost associated with it, so It’s not Automatically the smart thing to do in 90% of encounters. They’ll have to be smarter about it, and smarter play will lower the effectiveness of S/D.

Concerning your other point – if someone is spamming FS for straight up damage, its just about as bad as 2222222222 with Dagger MH. Considering how the skills are now split, you do not have access to an evade automatically on your weaponset anymore (Like thieves did prepatch). If you get stuck with LS when a warrior whirls through you, you just ate a big chunk of DPS you could have easily avoided had you been playing tactically, and saving your FS for when you target was actually swinging at you. In short, mindlessly spamming 3 with S/D is exactly comparable to mindlessly spamming 2 with D/X – something that catches the inexperienced player off guard, but any player who’s seen it before will take advantage of.

FS and LS are 2 different strikes….. LS doesnt require that FS hits…..kinda like saying jab with the left before a power right punch….but u cant use the power right punch unless the left jab hits? kinda silly if u think about it. FS is very hard to program to be a skill that hits alot….always has been…..if u change it LS will be available less than a successful bs or cnd. it here what you mean but reverting it to a conditional ls would cripple the skill enough that it wouldnt be played. if LS is he only skill that is used…….and needs a nerf…..i say buff attackspeed and attack dmg of 1 skill and make tactical strike a better dmg hit….. until then LS is fine…..one skill isnt making a build OP. its strong…..but its also the difference between a guardian/ele owning and being a good fight.

yes it is embarassing when nubs use 3 spam but only getting 3 uses is like = auto dead enemy.

• Flanking Strike skill:
  Now evades and delivers one strike instead of delivering two attacks.
  Removed boon removal.
  Reduced initiative cost from 4 to 3.
  Now toggles for 5 seconds to a second skill, Larcenous Strike, if the attack hits an enemy.
  Improved reliability of flanking strike.

• Larcenous Strike: Deliver a quick strike that steals up to two boons from an enemy. Costs 1 initiative.

English is not my language but I think LS triggers only if FS hits an enemy.
Am I missing something?

LS triggers regardless of FS hitting or not. LS is 100% …and in my opinion…it should be.

Travlane.5948:

LS triggers regardless of FS hitting or not. LS is 100%

yes, now it is, and I think it’s a bug.

Only thing I hate about the sword is the #2/Shadowstep bug where you can literally port 4000+ meter back to your original position. It’s pretty ridiculous.

Other than that, I haven’t really encountered many thieves who pose a threat worthy of being called OP, but time will tell. :P

I think it’s fine (except for that teleport bug).

wookie.8934:

Only thing I hate about the sword is the #2/Shadowstep bug where you can literally port 4000+ meter back to your original position. It’s pretty ridiculous.

Other than that, I haven’t really encountered many thieves who pose a threat worthy of being called OP, but time will tell. :P

I think it’s fine (except for that teleport bug).

I would not call it OP (sword #2 skill).
1. He only shadowsteps back to place he already was standing before and he has to run that 4000+ meters in first place.
2. Thief has only few seconds time window when he can shadowstep back, mesmers portal has longer time window (i think 60 seconds).
3. It is used more often as a gap closer or condition removal.

I just wish they would not fix this bug, speeds up my supply runs by few seconds.
All this is just my opinion.