Guild Wars 2

so, the Daredevil reveal just went up

and I’m noticing we don’t get any new mechanics, just a slightly increased endurance pool.

I’m pretty fond of most of the daredevil class, but it feels like class-mechanic wise, we didn’t really get anything new, while I believe they said all classes would get changes to their class mechanics…

what’s up with that?

We get a dodge replacement which is kind of like a new mechanic.

Id consider the dodge GMs a new mechanic.

Where does it say specis have to specificly add new stuff to the class mechanic? Im guessing you are on about steal here?

DD looks really good, Dodge leap finisher. lots of the skills look really useful too.

Im not too bothered about not gettin a new version of steal or so.

Kyori.6091:

Id consider the dodge GMs a new mechanic.

Where does it say specis have to specificly add new stuff to the class mechanic? Im guessing you are on about steal here?

DD looks really good, Dodge leap finisher. lots of the skills look really useful too.

Im not too bothered about not gettin a new version of steal or so.

They said:

Anet:
“Finally, we’re here. When we talked about rangers becoming druids and necromancers with greatswords, those were examples of what we call elite specializations. These are the brand-new level-80 specializations that will begin to introduce new weapons, MECHANICS, skills, and traits to existing professions in Heart of Thorns.”

Effects on dodge isn’t new to thief nor is being able to dodge more than 2 times in a row….

As of now, thief is the only class that has to spec to get a “new” mechanic. Other classes pick Elite spec and they get the new mechanic w/o having to select a trait for it.

I’m interested to see if Steal does actually change any or not (does it grant endurance?). Being that the Daredevil gets a 2-H weapon, the mechanic is supposed to change but not add a new facet (unlike the 1-H weapon elites). That said, stof is probably right in that the mechanic in this case is more about dodge (a game mechanic) rather than Steal (a class mechanic). They aren’t lying, but it is different from the other classes for sure.

MiniEquine.6014:

I’m interested to see if Steal does actually change any or not (does it grant endurance?)

Yes, one of the minor traits give endurance on a succesful steal.

Gabriell.4856:

Effects on dodge isn’t new to thief nor is being able to dodge more than 3 times….

Effects on dodge aren’t, but changing what dodge is, is. It becomes a whirl finisher with condi daggers, or a leap, or a long-range dash.

Also, no other class has access to three dodge rolls in a row without any additional buffs. This is certainly a different mechanic, just not what we were expecting.

MiniEquine.6014:

Gabriell.4856:

Effects on dodge isn’t new to thief nor is being able to dodge more than 3 times….

Effects on dodge aren’t, but changing what dodge is, is. It becomes a whirl finisher with condi daggers, or a leap, or a long-range dash.

Also, no other class has access to three dodge rolls in a row without any additional buffs. This is certainly a different mechanic, just not what we were expecting.

but other classes don’t give up a trait for it – they get it in their minor.

Gray.9041:

but other classes don’t give up a trait for it – they get it in their minor.

Nobody else gets an additional 50 Endurance from a minor trait. Or any other trait.

Gabriell.4856:

Kyori.6091:

Id consider the dodge GMs a new mechanic.

Where does it say specis have to specificly add new stuff to the class mechanic? Im guessing you are on about steal here?

DD looks really good, Dodge leap finisher. lots of the skills look really useful too.

Im not too bothered about not gettin a new version of steal or so.

They said:

Anet:
“Finally, we’re here. When we talked about rangers becoming druids and necromancers with greatswords, those were examples of what we call elite specializations. These are the brand-new level-80 specializations that will begin to introduce new weapons, MECHANICS, skills, and traits to existing professions in Heart of Thorns.”

Effects on dodge isn’t new to thief nor is being able to dodge more than 2 times in a row….

As of now, thief is the only class that has to spec to get a “new” mechanic. Other classes pick Elite spec and they get the new mechanic w/o having to select a trait for it.

You could say that, it says mechanic tho not specificly class mechanic. Or that the mechanic has to be new to the game.

Sure there are alot of dodge abilities already, but a leap finisher, a long range dash. Should and is a “new mechanic”.

You could also argue being able to finish a downstate person with a skill is a new mechanic too.

It really depends on how you look at it. I dont get the negativity, this speci seems to have alot of good stuff in it.

It’s also worth noting that these new dodges aren’t just “buff traits”

As written they’re massive replacements. They don’t have an ICD and deliver like 4x as much as any comparable trait on any other class (including our own dodge traits, which we can still stack with these)

Combine that with the fact that we are getting far, far more endurance gain than any other class ever with just the base line, and gain approaching stupidity if you go all in with acro, d/* auto 2, signet of agility, and the new +10 on physical use trait, and it’s absolutely as build shifting as the mechanical changes to other classes. Remember, those traits have no ICD. They happen every time you dodge

Everyone can “use dodge” and everyone “has dodge traits” but Daredevil sets up thieves to be the only option if you want to make a dodge build

tobascodagama.2961:

Gray.9041:

but other classes don’t give up a trait for it – they get it in their minor.

Nobody else gets an additional 50 Endurance from a minor trait. Or any other trait.

He was talking about the new mechanic which some say it is the effect on dodge.

Our “new” mechanic is gated behind GM traits.

Gray.9041:

but other classes don’t give up a trait for it – they get it in their minor.

All the minor traits that apply to dodge either get a very small benefit or a rather long cooldown on it.

Compare for example the 2s swiftness on dodge thief can already get to the trait that replaces dodge with dash that gives you 8s swiftness and cures chill/cripple without cooldown.

And excuse me but, Leap finisher on dodge just plain rocks ! The only other trait in the game close to that power is the Engineer GM trait that makes the bombs they drop on dodge (with a 10s cooldown) count as blast finishers.

/P + leap finisher on dodge + 3 dodges + free dodge on steal. Think about it!

“Slightly” increased endurance? Daredevil gets hugely increased endurance. And the grandmaster traits aren’t just “effect on dodge”—they’re full-on dodge replacements. I think it’s pretty cool, myself.

Kyori.6091:

Gabriell.4856:

Kyori.6091:

Id consider the dodge GMs a new mechanic.

Where does it say specis have to specificly add new stuff to the class mechanic? Im guessing you are on about steal here?

DD looks really good, Dodge leap finisher. lots of the skills look really useful too.

Im not too bothered about not gettin a new version of steal or so.

They said:

Anet:
“Finally, we’re here. When we talked about rangers becoming druids and necromancers with greatswords, those were examples of what we call elite specializations. These are the brand-new level-80 specializations that will begin to introduce new weapons, MECHANICS, skills, and traits to existing professions in Heart of Thorns.”

Effects on dodge isn’t new to thief nor is being able to dodge more than 2 times in a row….

As of now, thief is the only class that has to spec to get a “new” mechanic. Other classes pick Elite spec and they get the new mechanic w/o having to select a trait for it.

You could say that, it says mechanic tho not specificly class mechanic. Or that the mechanic has to be new to the game.

Sure there are alot of dodge abilities already, but a leap finisher, a long range dash. Should and is a “new mechanic”.

You could also argue being able to finish a downstate person with a skill is a new mechanic too.

It really depends on how you look at it. I dont get the negativity, this speci seems to have alot of good stuff in it.

I’m not being negative. Just offering a different opinion.

“Sure there are alot of dodge abilities already, but a leap finisher, a long range dash. Should and is a “new mechanic”.

Are you saying the GM traits is our new mechanic? If so, why is it being gated by GM traits?

Gabriell.4856:

Are you saying the GM traits is our new mechanic? If so, why is it being gated by GM traits?

The fact it’s a GM or Adept trait will not matter much past the very start when you didn’t unlock the whole elite spec.

And why is it a major trait? So that you can choose which dodge you want to equip.

Gabriell.4856:

tobascodagama.2961:

Gray.9041:

but other classes don’t give up a trait for it – they get it in their minor.

Nobody else gets an additional 50 Endurance from a minor trait. Or any other trait.

He was talking about the new mechanic which some say it is the effect on dodge.

Our “new” mechanic is gated behind GM traits.

I guess that it was Anet’s best choice because this mechanic requires you to choose your dodge and is potentially very powerful, especially with that extra 50 endurance + endurance regen that you get.

We will simply have to see how it works out, it may actually turn out to be a brilliant idea to make mechanics that give you three choices like this. It’s certainly unique when compared to the standard adept minor mechanic that the others are getting, that’s for sure.

It’s being gated behind GM traits because they designed the minors to be extremely powerful to compensate and it gives us the option to select between three mechanics so we can choose the one we like.

stof.9341:

Gray.9041:

but other classes don’t give up a trait for it – they get it in their minor.

All the minor traits that apply to dodge either get a very small benefit or a rather long cooldown on it.

I mean their class mechanics.

Chronomancer’s Continuum Split
Dragonhunter’s New Virtues
Reaper’s Reaper Shroud
Tempest’s Overloads
Herald’s Facet of Nature
Berserker’s New Burst Skills

all of these are available to them through the first minor trait. compare this to an extra 50 endurance… it’s not exactly comparable…

(also, before you say an extra 50 endurance is a big thing, we used to get a trait which refilled 20 or 30 endurance on dodge roll – effectively giving us an extra 50 odd endurance. so we get an old trait, while other classes get stuff like Reaper Shroud or Continuum Split…)

Gray.9041:

stof.9341:

Gray.9041:

but other classes don’t give up a trait for it – they get it in their minor.

All the minor traits that apply to dodge either get a very small benefit or a rather long cooldown on it.

I mean their class mechanics.

Chronomancer’s Continuum Split
Dragonhunter’s New Virtues
Reaper’s Reaper Shroud
Tempest’s Overloads
Herald’s Facet of Nature
Berserker’s New Burst Skills

all of these are available to them through the first minor trait. compare this to an extra 50 endurance… it’s not exactly comparable…

(also, before you say an extra 50 endurance is a big thing, we used to get a trait which refilled 20 or 30 endurance on dodge roll – effectively giving us an extra 50 odd endurance. so we get an old trait, while other classes get stuff like Reaper Shroud or Continuum Split…)

Those classes are also stuck with those options that Anet decided for them. Thieves get to tailor their new ability to fit the given situation. That seems like a pretty big deal to me.

Gray.9041:

stof.9341:

Gray.9041:

but other classes don’t give up a trait for it – they get it in their minor.

All the minor traits that apply to dodge either get a very small benefit or a rather long cooldown on it.

I mean their class mechanics.

Chronomancer’s Continuum Split
Dragonhunter’s New Virtues
Reaper’s Reaper Shroud
Tempest’s Overloads
Herald’s Facet of Nature
Berserker’s New Burst Skills

all of these are available to them through the first minor trait. compare this to an extra 50 endurance… it’s not exactly comparable…

(also, before you say an extra 50 endurance is a big thing, we used to get a trait which refilled 20 or 30 endurance on dodge roll – effectively giving us an extra 50 odd endurance. so we get an old trait, while other classes get stuff like Reaper Shroud or Continuum Split…)

You’re looking at it wrong.

All trait lines are automatically maxed since the trait update. All e-specs require taking their trait line to gain the benefits of the spec.

You should be looking at how it compared to the total trait line granted by other specs.

The minor is +50 end, but the overall trait line adds so much more utility to dodging, a thing we can use far more frequently than any of the other mechanics that it compared extremely well.

Gray.9041:

stof.9341:

Gray.9041:

but other classes don’t give up a trait for it – they get it in their minor.

All the minor traits that apply to dodge either get a very small benefit or a rather long cooldown on it.

I mean their class mechanics.

Chronomancer’s Continuum Split
Dragonhunter’s New Virtues
Reaper’s Reaper Shroud
Tempest’s Overloads
Herald’s Facet of Nature
Berserker’s New Burst Skills

all of these are available to them through the first minor trait. compare this to an extra 50 endurance… it’s not exactly comparable…

(also, before you say an extra 50 endurance is a big thing, we used to get a trait which refilled 20 or 30 endurance on dodge roll – effectively giving us an extra 50 odd endurance. so we get an old trait, while other classes get stuff like Reaper Shroud or Continuum Split…)

What he said.

Look guys/gals. We arent being negative. We are pointing out flaws and we feel like the thief was short changed by gating it behind GM traits. We’re making this point so that we can get more out of this elite spec. We’re are not saying this is doom and gloom.

For example suggestion.
Add F3, F4, F5 each for the new dodge. They have high CD so you’re locked into a dodge type for a good bit. (We don’t want to be Ele’s).

Then add 3 new GM traits to DD.

Personally, i would make the grand masters a selectable option (similar to Revenant legends) and give something else as grand master.

PopeUrban.2578:

Gray.9041:

stof.9341:

Gray.9041:

but other classes don’t give up a trait for it – they get it in their minor.

All the minor traits that apply to dodge either get a very small benefit or a rather long cooldown on it.

I mean their class mechanics.

Chronomancer’s Continuum Split
Dragonhunter’s New Virtues
Reaper’s Reaper Shroud
Tempest’s Overloads
Herald’s Facet of Nature
Berserker’s New Burst Skills

all of these are available to them through the first minor trait. compare this to an extra 50 endurance… it’s not exactly comparable…

(also, before you say an extra 50 endurance is a big thing, we used to get a trait which refilled 20 or 30 endurance on dodge roll – effectively giving us an extra 50 odd endurance. so we get an old trait, while other classes get stuff like Reaper Shroud or Continuum Split…)

You’re looking at it wrong.

All trait lines are automatically maxed since the trait update. All e-specs require taking their trait line to gain the benefits of the spec.

You should be looking at how it compared to the total trait line granted by other specs.

The minor is +50 end, but the overall trait line adds so much more utility to dodging, a thing we can use far more frequently than any of the other mechanics that it compared extremely well.

that’s one way of looking at it I guess. I’ll wait and see how it plays in the BWE…

that said:

Emtiarbi.3281:

Personally, i would make the grand masters a selectable option (similar to Revenant legends) and give something else as grand master.

this also seems like a reasonable way of doing it. have F3 be the selectable dodge-alteration, then have separate GM traits.

Gabriell.4856:

Then add 3 new GM traits to DD.

Seriously, it really doesn’t matter. I’m perfectly happy with getting a “weak” first minor trait in exchange to an awesome GM trait selection. There’s no need to compare each elite spec minor trait by minor trait. Look at the big picture.

This isn’t the pre specialisation remake patch. It doesn’t matter if a group of traits is GM or Adept really since you always get them all when you equip the trait line.

Too much complaining :P

Thieves get 2h melee weap and cool skills imo + mechanical change to how dodge works. Imo it looks really really good.

We don’t need class homogenization. We need them t have their identity and flavour.

Gabriell.4856:

Gray.9041:

stof.9341:

Gray.9041:

but other classes don’t give up a trait for it – they get it in their minor.

All the minor traits that apply to dodge either get a very small benefit or a rather long cooldown on it.

I mean their class mechanics.

Chronomancer’s Continuum Split
Dragonhunter’s New Virtues
Reaper’s Reaper Shroud
Tempest’s Overloads
Herald’s Facet of Nature
Berserker’s New Burst Skills

all of these are available to them through the first minor trait. compare this to an extra 50 endurance… it’s not exactly comparable…

(also, before you say an extra 50 endurance is a big thing, we used to get a trait which refilled 20 or 30 endurance on dodge roll – effectively giving us an extra 50 odd endurance. so we get an old trait, while other classes get stuff like Reaper Shroud or Continuum Split…)

What he said.

Look guys/gals. We arent being negative. We are pointing out flaws and we feel like the thief was short changed by gating it behind GM traits. We’re making this point so that we can get more out of this elite spec. We’re are not saying this is doom and gloom.

For example suggestion.
Add F3, F4, F5 each for the new dodge. They have high CD so you’re locked into a dodge type for a good bit. (We don’t want to be Ele’s).

Then add 3 new GM traits to DD.

QFT.

This is a joke, thief is the only profession without a proper new mechanic.

Dodge is cool and all, but we have basically 1 Less GM trait when compared to other classes.

Thief is the only proff actually PAYING for its enhanced mechanic.

Having F2-4 as toggles would be a way better choice instead of THIS.

People need to get out of the notion that Grandmaster traits are just that, Grandmaster traits. They aren’t. Traits are just choices within a Specialisation now.

That, plus: this is FAR more interesting than the other Elites. We’re not stuck with a crummy replaced Dodge that we don’t like, we can pick from THREE, and they all benefit us in different ways. The extra base 50 endurance benefits pretty much any build ever, as well.

Honestly, I’d say we got far more benefits than, say, Tempest. Overloads are TERRIBLE.

Kitten. As much as I still hate the nuking of Acro and P/P, I must say this Spec doesn’t look half so terribad. Although, it still feels like being paygated to get a proper stealthless
evader spec …
Those Dodge GMs, tho. kitten.

Auesis.7301:

People need to get out of the notion that Grandmaster traits are just that, Grandmaster traits. They aren’t. Traits are just choices within a Specialisation now.

That, plus: this is FAR more interesting than the other Elites. We’re not stuck with a crummy replaced Dodge that we don’t like, we can pick from THREE, and they all benefit us in different ways. The extra base 50 endurance benefits pretty much any build ever, as well.

Honestly, I’d say we got far more benefits than, say, Tempest. Overloads are TERRIBLE.

I’m not saying they’re not good or cool.

Infact they’re.

problem is we objectively have one less GM when compared to other professions.

I’m not even sayig it won’t work, it will.

I’m complaining about the fact that we’re the only proff having to PAY for its added mechanic.

It’s stupid.

You’re not paying for anything. If the Elite Specialisation has been balanced specifically around making this choice within the line, then there is no trade-off.

That plus being able to choose which dodge you use on F skills would probably be super imba.

Mrbig.8019:

I’m not saying they’re not good or cool.

Infact they’re.

problem is we objectively have one less GM when compared to other professions.

I’m not even sayig it won’t work, it will.

I’m complaining about the fact that we’re the only proff having to PAY for its added mechanic.

It’s stupid.

No. Look at the big picture and donc compare the elite specs trait by trait it doesn’t make sense.

The ability to combo finish with a dodge and stomp with a chained skill are pretty new mechanics if you ask me…

If all u thieves really don’t like the spec I know a lot of warriors would trade u

Mrbig.8019:

Auesis.7301:

People need to get out of the notion that Grandmaster traits are just that, Grandmaster traits. They aren’t. Traits are just choices within a Specialisation now.

That, plus: this is FAR more interesting than the other Elites. We’re not stuck with a crummy replaced Dodge that we don’t like, we can pick from THREE, and they all benefit us in different ways. The extra base 50 endurance benefits pretty much any build ever, as well.

Honestly, I’d say we got far more benefits than, say, Tempest. Overloads are TERRIBLE.

I’m not saying they’re not good or cool.

Infact they’re.

problem is we objectively have one less GM when compared to other professions.

I’m not even sayig it won’t work, it will.

I’m complaining about the fact that we’re the only proff having to PAY for its added mechanic.

It’s stupid.

How is this any different from any other trait though? Take the Dragonhunter, for example. You get the updated Virtues automatically, but if you want them to do extra damage (WoR) or last longer (SoC), then you need to slot two additional traits. Want your Reaper shroud to be more effective? There are 2 additional traits you need for that. Tempest Overloads also require you to invest in additional traits to improve their mechanics. I think Chronomancer is the only elite so far that does not have this.

Besides, you get to choose your mechanic you want. You aren’t shoehorned into one style, and sometimes the choice itself makes a world of difference.

Gating the main mechanic behind GM traits is not a flaw. It’s customisation.

MiniEquine.6014:

I’m interested to see if Steal does actually change any or not (does it grant endurance?). Being that the Daredevil gets a 2-H weapon, the mechanic is supposed to change but not add a new facet (unlike the 1-H weapon elites). That said, stof is probably right in that the mechanic in this case is more about dodge (a game mechanic) rather than Steal (a class mechanic). They aren’t lying, but it is different from the other classes for sure.

But …This isn’t even new for thieves.

This is the old acro line.
Your elite spec is a trait line you used to have.
Anet is making you pay for a new weapon and a trait line you already could use before the patch.

You don’t lose GM trait. It accounted for by the strength of GM trait + whole profession. Comparing bits of pieces to other bits without comparing complete thing to another complete thing is moot.

When you compare football teams it doesn;t come down to comparing what sort of shoes a single player has.

You receive a 2H weapon, that means you don’t get new mechanics you get modified existing mechanics. In your case the dodge mechanic is being altered. Yes It’s a profession wide mechanic instead of profession specific like the rest but that doesn’t make it worse. Odds are we’ll see other elite specs do something similar. For example, they might one day make an elite spec that double-jumps or hovers/flies briefly.

Also – the traits are a full set. You get them all at 80 so your worries about Adept vs GM etc. is silly. You get them all. They could have said “your dodge is now a leap” as a minor but instead they made that a choice in your first set of major traits and gave you a full extra dodge as the minor to support the mechanic.

Solori.6025:

MiniEquine.6014:

I’m interested to see if Steal does actually change any or not (does it grant endurance?). Being that the Daredevil gets a 2-H weapon, the mechanic is supposed to change but not add a new facet (unlike the 1-H weapon elites). That said, stof is probably right in that the mechanic in this case is more about dodge (a game mechanic) rather than Steal (a class mechanic). They aren’t lying, but it is different from the other classes for sure.

But …This isn’t even new for thieves.

This is the old acro line.
Your elite spec is a trait line you used to have.
Anet is making you pay for a new weapon and a trait line you already could use before the patch.

Umm…no, not really. The only thing it has in common with the acro line, even before, was that it gives you more dodge. However, this line gives combo finishers to dodges, utility skills with combos, and the ability to finish someone with a skill instead of a stomp.

This might be a newbie-level question, but isn’t steal (base steal) kind of…. crap?

I’m really disappointed that it doesn’t appear to be getting replaced with anything more consistent. As it is, it seems like you have to load it up with traits just to make it worth pushing as anything other than a gap closer.

Endlos.4852:

This might be a newbie-level question, but isn’t steal (base steal) kind of…. crap?

I’m really disappointed that it doesn’t appear to be getting replaced with anything more consistent. As it is, it seems like you have to load it up with traits just to make it worth pushing as anything other than a gap closer.

Steal is not your entire profession mechanic, it’s merely one aspect of it. Initiative and to a lesser degree Dual Wield skills are your mechanic. Since your weapon skills don’t have a CD and instead share a resource Steal provides you with a free gap closer and an additional wild card utility that can be utilized while you’re waiting on initiative to recharge.

Solori.6025:

MiniEquine.6014:

I’m interested to see if Steal does actually change any or not (does it grant endurance?). Being that the Daredevil gets a 2-H weapon, the mechanic is supposed to change but not add a new facet (unlike the 1-H weapon elites). That said, stof is probably right in that the mechanic in this case is more about dodge (a game mechanic) rather than Steal (a class mechanic). They aren’t lying, but it is different from the other classes for sure.

But …This isn’t even new for thieves.

This is the old acro line.
Your elite spec is a trait line you used to have.
Anet is making you pay for a new weapon and a trait line you already could use before the patch.

Implying we weren’t gonna buy the expansion anyway.

They’re not making us pay for anything. They’re moving the game forward into the future and giving us what looks to be a great new playstyle that is similar in concept to the old Acrobatics but modifies our dodges, gives us access to cc’s, a block, and our first main hand weapon which looks potentially good for cleaving.

Even if I’m paying for an IMPROVED version of old Acrobatics then I don’t even see the problem considering I’m also getting a new story, other class specializations, a new class, guild halls, etc.