Guild Wars 2

HI guys, I’m experimenting with D/D alot atm. I’m using DA/CS/Tr and I was wondered where the break even point for No Quarter over Hidden Killer is. I’ve used No Quarter mostly, but it is just painful if the BS doesn’t crit.

Because I have traited in Tr I assume I have permanent fury (which is not true without No Quarter, but it’s a fury uptime 28/20.5 secs which is imo negligible, especially when you use Pack Runes)

So I compare 2 scenarios.

First CnD + BS+ AA Chain (repeat)
I assume I have 2550 power (it’s not important because the power value stays the same, if you crit or not) and 225% crit dmg.

1st: Surprisingly I need 73% crit chance (53% without fury) that No Quarter is better.

The 2nd scenario is even worse for No Quarter.

I assume that the target dodges the AA-Chain (or block, blind etc.)

2nd: Now I need 82% crit chance (62% without fury) that No Quarter passes Hidden Killer.

Conclusion:
No Quarter is only worth it when you have no fury source like Pack Runes, Trickery or teammates.

Disclaimer:
I ignored SB, so if you use SB most of the time, No Quarter is maybe better for you.

Source:
With AA Chain

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2.82*p*%28x*%28f%2B0.17%29%2B%281-x%29%29%2B1.25*p*%28x*%28f%2B0.17%29%2B%281-x%29%29%2B2.4*p*%28x*%28f%2B0.17%29%2B%281-x%29%29%3D2.82*p*%28x*f%2B%281-x%29%29%2B1.25*p*%28x*f%2B%281-x%29%29%2B2.4*p*1*f+with+p%3D2550+and+f%3D2.25

Without AA Chain

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1.25*p*%28x*%28f%2B0.17%29%2B%281-x%29%29%2B2.4*p*%28x*%28f%2B0.17%29%2B%281-x%29%29%3D1.25*p*%28x*f%2B%281-x%29%29%2B2.4*p*1*f+with+p%3D2550+and+f%3D2.25

I hope this helps some of you.

EDIT: Had a mistake in my calculation, I hope this is now correct. Plz point out every mistake I had possibly made. Should drink more coffee.

Hidden killer on affects stealth attacks vs no quarter affecting all attacks. While I toyed with the numbers a little bit, having just backstab crit, vs having 25% high chance for all skills, doesn’t seem like HK could over power NQ. I would have to review your math.
But just back of the envelope, if you consider dps and that you can only stealth every 3 seconds, I feel like the dps percentage can’t be higher. The raw numbers may be higher though since BS has a high coefficient.

Im not sure what you mean with “having 25% high chance”
no quarter boost your ferocity by 250 which results in 16.6% higher crit dmg.
Because I can stealth only every 3 seconds is the reason I included the AA Chain to cover this.

Even with precision on kill and precision runes and rune of rage on armor and sinful of precision. Your bs might not critics. With d/d you kinda need it to crit because you have no blinds.

I’d still
Go with HK and Use your runes/sigils for damage.

Avoid using maths for these kind of choices. The best thing you can do is test it yourself.

apocom.3172:

Im not sure what you mean with “having 25% high chance”
no quarter boost your ferocity by 250 which results in 16.6% higher crit dmg.
Because I can stealth only every 3 seconds is the reason I included the AA Chain to cover this.

I was in the office. I meant the fury portion of the ability. You get 20% more critical chance. That gives all of your non-stealth attacks much more average damage.

hihey.1075:

Avoid using maths for these kind of choices. The best thing you can do is test it yourself.

Yes I was testing this myself. But it is very frustrating in a duell when the BS doesn’t hits. With d/p I don’t have the problem to cover this, I think it is way harder with d/d.

I don’t run SA, so I have the feeling I’m in need for some Vita and the best way is using Valk.

So after testing this for a while I was wondering where the break even points are. In a fight I hit only a part of the AA Chain (because the enemy is dodging, blocking etc.). So for my needs my precision should be somewhere inbetween those numbers that I should go for NQ.

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

I was in the office. I meant the fury portion of the ability. You get 20% more critical chance. That gives all of your non-stealth attacks much more average damage.

Like I mentioned in my post, with Trickery and CS you have close to 100% fury. So imo you dont need NQ.

And how many people use NQ just for the fury? I want the ferocity boost, anything fury is added bonus.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

And how many people use NQ just for the fury? I want the ferocity boost, anything fury is added bonus.

The same ppl that don’t run ToC and/or pack runes. I don’t think that is the majority. Regardless, this topic is for the ppl that use either ToC or pack runes.

2 years ago I specced the last time into HK and I’ve never thought that I would come back to this. But for my d/d build I think it is stronger and wanted to cover my impression with some math.

apocom.3172:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

And how many people use NQ just for the fury? I want the ferocity boost, anything fury is added bonus.

The same ppl that don’t run ToC and/or pack runes. I don’t think that is the majority. Regardless, this topic is for the ppl that use either ToC or pack runes.

2 years ago I specced the last time into HK and I’ve never thought that I would come back to this. But for my d/d build I think it is stronger and wanted to cover my impression with some math.

Your math ignores the usual way a fight goes – people try to dodge/evade etc the hard hitting attacks. Why waste blind or dodge on aa if I know the thief will backstab soon. That’s why I personally use NQ instead of HK, any missed backstab reduces the benefit HK brings, While NQ benefits me all the time (with ToC/pack rune that’s almost all the time).

Sure if someone is in valk/cav, he needs HK to do any dmg but for a zerker thief I don’t see much value in using HK, as 3 of 4 my attacks crit. Even HK doesn’t guarantee crit on backstab, the chance it won’t crit is very small but it’s there. HK might look better on paper but in actual fight it’s very situational.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

apocom.3172:

Jayden Ennok.3687:

And how many people use NQ just for the fury? I want the ferocity boost, anything fury is added bonus.

The same ppl that don’t run ToC and/or pack runes. I don’t think that is the majority. Regardless, this topic is for the ppl that use either ToC or pack runes.

2 years ago I specced the last time into HK and I’ve never thought that I would come back to this. But for my d/d build I think it is stronger and wanted to cover my impression with some math.

Your math ignores the usual way a fight goes – people try to dodge/evade etc the hard hitting attacks. Why waste blind or dodge on aa if I know the thief will backstab soon. That’s why I personally use NQ instead of HK, any missed backstab reduces the benefit HK brings, While NQ benefits me all the time (with ToC/pack rune that’s almost all the time).

Sure if someone is in valk/cav, he needs HK to do any dmg but for a zerker thief I don’t see much value in using HK, as 3 of 4 my attacks crit. Even HK doesn’t guarantee crit on backstab, the chance it won’t crit is very small but it’s there. HK might look better on paper but in actual fight it’s very situational.

But you don’t have any CD for BS so if the enemy blind, block or dodges I just try again. If I’m not longer stealthed the next attack that I try to hit is for sure a CnD. So either I’m revealed and my BS critted or I go for a CnD. And if the enemy tries to block, blind, evade my CnD I try to use stow weapons in time.

I completly agree with you that it’s very situational. I just tested both for a few hours and I had the feeling that HK would be a little bit better than NQ for my playstyle with d/d. That’s why I made this calculation for me, just to take a look if I’m mistaken. And maybe some of you are interested in. That’s all.

And as you stated, with full zerk you are above the crit chance calculated, so it would be better for you to user NQ. But not everyone uses full zerk atm. I have the feeling that I’m in need for some vita, espacially because I’m lacking condi remove without SA.

apocom.3172:

And as you stated, with full zerk you are above the crit chance calculated, so it would be better for you to user NQ. But not everyone uses full zerk atm. I have the feeling that I’m in need for some vita, espacially because I’m lacking condi remove without SA.

With HoT, this might make HK even better than NQ as we’ll lose guard stacks and the low HP classes will take a big hit with this. Zerker will have 12.4k HP base, which is incredibly squishy, and I think a lot thieves will go for valk/cav.

Great thing about HK is that u dont have to worry about high crit chance. Which also means that u can invest that extra points to armor/vitality instead of crit chance.

HK is for the precise, quick and confident Thief.

NQ is for the thief who is aware of the possible mistakes and who is hoping his crit damag will make up for them.

It seems to me No Quarter is a better choice overall. +250 Ferocity is truly unbeatable espcially when we take into account the fact that alarmed and focus opponents will likely dodge your Backstabs. In a fight against such players, I think No Quarter is a better deal.

Hidden Killer take the " will my BS crit? " burden of your shoulder. It’s good for fast and quick fights, but the drawbacks are more severe than the ones you get from the alternative trait.

Hidden Killer is wonderful for medium/light armor ennemies. However against a those hardcounter Guardians, a good crit could save you, but how many would that require?