Guild Wars 2

This is not a “thief hate” thread.

My main is a thief. I like thief playstyle a lot.

But the class is not working as it should.

Altough it’s still very harsh to talk about meta ( it’s kinda hard that 2 strong teams will encounter each other in tourneys, and it’s even harder now since with no ranking , teams are inactive), it’s clear what roles the thief will take : the roamer/burster ( burst builds) or the cap supporter ( via venoms or bleed unicorn builds).

D/D burst

Analyzing this, it’s NOT FAIR for a burst thief to jump on ANY opponent and kill him in 2 secs, with 3 moves. No , if you’re using kitten signet you’re doing it wrong, you don’t need it.

Thief burst is nearly unavoidable and can be repeated as long as you’re a good player and you know what you’re doing , and the thief is THE ONLY CLASS capable to set this burst without some requirment.

Currently, the only reason why you would pick an ele over a thief in this role is due to NPCs in nifhel/foefire and due to trebs in khylo: otherwise, there’s NO REASON to choose another class for this role.

The effort/reward ratio with this build is minimal, you basically need 0 skill in order to achieve good results, and if you think you are skilled, bad news for you incoming: probably you should take a look at classes like the enge/ele/necro before posting again ( @ random guy screaming " THE THEIF IZ FINE, L2P NUB")

Pistol whip thieves have always been a joke, never being a real threat: PW nerf was ridicolous and affected PvE more than everything.

Cap support: bleed thieves and venom thieves

The bleed build is the most cheesy thing in all thief arsenal: 333, dodge dodge dodge, caltrops, 3333, dodge dodge dodge, caltrops, stealth, wait few secs, 33333.

While this build can be easily countered in pug games, in tPvP is RIDICOLOUSLY POWRFUL, and caltrops help on counter capping, since you can’t prevent capping while stealthed ( you’re capping ? CALTROPS on a point, and start laughing).

Venom thieves are being literally demolished in usefulness by the bleed build: more survivability, more results, AoE capabilities.

tl:dr;

What’s the point of this thread ?

Other weapon sets have no real use: P/P, S/P, S/D, D/P have no purpose in meta, or, to be more precise, in capture games.

D/D + shortbow is currently the ONLY way to play the thief. And that way is cheesy and overpowered.

The thief seriously lacks the depth other classes have: even THE WARRIOR is a more versatile, deep and well designed class than the thief.

I know the thief will be nerfed into oblivion ( just like the sin, which was A MUCH DEEPER class than the thief): the only thing i’m asking to aNet is to completely rehaul the class if it’s really not working as intended ( and it isn’t).

No more senseless nerfs, pls.

Our paths cross once again old friend

The Thief was doomed to this playstyle when they implemented global inititave for both weapon sets, you and I complained about a lot of valid stuff but this is the vision arenanet has for the Thief.

I play a Thief, Necromancer and Warrior and the combo’s and complexity with Necro and Warrior lies with the execution of many skills to get an epic outcome, while the complexity with Thief lies mostly on Timing. A Thief that spams 3x Death Blossoms as soon as he can is not effective as a Thief that uses 3x Death Blossom and with every Death Blossom he evades an enemy attack. Thief is all about timing, nothing else.

Don’t worry too much old friend, Guild Wars 2 is not going go be an E-Sport anytime soon anyways :p just enjoy the game.

Since they have made it 100% clear they will now be nerfing based on forum whiners and not data or metrics (EX: HS and PW nerfs) I have to 100% agree the class needs a complete redesign.

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

Our paths cross once again old friend

The Thief was doomed to this playstyle when they implemented global inititave for both weapon sets, you and I complained about a lot of valid stuff but this is the vision arenanet has for the Thief.

Exactly thief does not propagate weapeon swaping. Whats the point to swap weapeons in combat if you still cant use any skill while you swaped to other weapeon. Lets say you blew all your initiative on Shortbow, cluster bomb aoe, you can only basic attack. Swaping weapeon will still let you only basic attack.

A serious lackluster for thiefs class. Only exeption is unicorn thief with +3 innitiative on weapeon swap.

Giving global initiatives for thieves is to limit the amount of skills they can actually use, so players have to think before using what kind of skills for each situation. That is the drawback to having skills with no cooldowns, so no players can literally spam their skills forever. Also, both D/D Burst and Unicorn have their own drawbacks from the guide people have been using. In fact, the D/D burst has the drawback of having no CC’s within its weapon kit, and only from the thief’s utility skills if the player decides to equip them. Even so, the opponent can easily clear away any conditions which renders them unable to dodge, especially with the new basilisk venom change. D/D burst relies on actually bursting someone within a short period of time, and if the thief isn’t successful, then he remains useless until the duration of his utility cooldowns are off or his initiatives have regenerated. I see no problems with the D/D burst build, since the build itself doesn’t contribute as much as you’d like a thief to contribute.

The Unicorn build from the guide may look strong, and I’m more surprised that the Unicorn isn’t as popular as most glass cannon builds. Unicorn basically gives immense survivability, constant dps, and little risk to perform any task. The problem with the unicorn build is the initiative cost of putting bleed or other condition damage to take full effect. Also, the unicorn build focuses the thief to take on a disrupt/tanking role instead of actually finishing somebody off. On one hand, the build is great for defense, but a lot of classes are quite effective for defensive jobs if they spec their build for such a role (Guardian, Mesmer, Engineer).

I wouldn’t rule out the thief’s other weapon sets just yet. Although PW was nerfed, that doesn’t mean S/P becomes completely useless. Pistol weapon sets are still quite useful if use the blinds and the stuns properly, and sword still has a gap closer ability which proves to be quite useful to chase kiting classes.

You worry too much, and if you don’t enjoy the meta thief builds are right now, then create your own effective build and stop looking at other people’s guides. Frankly, ArenaNet made the right choice to decreasing the damage output on a thief, seeing as how they cannot touch stealth and dodge because those are what a thief primarily depends upon regardless of what their builds are. You should be grateful they haven’t nerfed SB, since that weapon alone is broken.

Thief benefits from weapon switching, but not in the same way that other classes do. Thief game play is based on timing.

Lan.1968:

stuff

that’s not my point.

My point is about tourneys effectiveness: D/D, no matters what , outshines every other thief weaponset. Same for the shortbow.

D/D burst thief is the best roamer possible: the role of a roamer is to be highly mobile and help from a point to another, dispatching weakened enemies ( it’s basically the description of the thief).

There’s no better roamer than a thief currently, and no , D/D thieves are NOT useless outside the burst, as long as you don’t build your thief with the dumb 30-30-0-0-10 pugstomping build ( with no real use in tourneys).

If some team uses an ele ( ALONG with the thief, but it’s very uncommon) it’s due to ele one shotting treb/npcs. Nothing else.

This is destroying meta diversity, of course, but that’s another story: the backstab thief is very, very unfair for other classes, since the effort/reward ratio is EXTREMELY favourable to th thief: opponents have nothing more than a blink to button smash their panic button or they’re pretty much dead, while the thief does nothing than pressing 3 buttons, and it happens in 1 second.

Not fair. Nothing else.

Same story for the bleed thief, that is NOT used as a real defender, but as a solo capper: thanks to high mobility, you go on a point, and you stay there forever, as long as you’re not forced to go 1vs2. In that case, you simply stealth and go to another point, becoming again the roamer.

This is a capture game: in this capture game, the thief is currently OP. Not only OP, but also very cheesy, with no real skill involved, and extremely unfair for its opponents.

That’s why people complain, and they’re right.

So, since aNet is sadly listening to forum whiners, i really believe they should restart rehauling the class completely ASAP: most probably, in halloween big patch, the thief will already be nerfed into uselessness, and i would really be able to avoid the sad and pitiful meta shifting show.

Mrbig, Thief won’t get a class overhaul, trust me.

Like you said, capping is the primary objective in tournament pvp and thieves have the right kits to carry out that objective effectively due to their weapon kits (elementalists too). However, if your worry is that thieves are too mobile due to the fact that they can get from point to point, then there’s nothing to be fixed about that. Thieves were made to be mobile and destructive at the cost of lacking on the defensive side. Also, players typically don’t die within a one-second period from a thief combo unless he/she is going for a full offensive build. You’re overestimating the thief’s dps output here. As for the thief’s unicorn build, that takes no effect on how well a thief can cap a point with bleed. The main issue is the fact that a thief can travel to different points/nodes in quick succession and efficiently take a point through elusive methods. A lot of thief weapon sets can perform this task, maybe with the exception of going dual pistol. However, if you’re complaining that a thief holds all the cards in a capturing game, then the game itself needs to be changed. If you take away what a thief symbolizes, which is speed and stealth, then you basically wipe the class itself. I will agree that the SB does need reworks.

Analyzing this, it’s NOT FAIR for a burst thief to jump on ANY opponent and kill him in 2 secs, with 3 moves.

Yes it is. If I’m a thief and sacrifice virtually everything (survivability, mobility, etc…) for good single target DPS I can only do once per minute if I set it up correctly, then yes that’s perfectly fair.

You’re acting like D/D burst is some simple I press 1 button and I always win build, when it’s not. Positioning has to be perfect, cooldowns have to be up, the stun needs to be unbroken, etc..

Thief is very close to being balanced. The only thing left to do is make it so you can’t pre-cast cloak and dagger and pistolwhip and then steal.

The death blossom build is absolutely horrible. I used to play it a lot and it’s stupidly easy to counter.

Thief is very noob friendly because it’s easy to kill players with. But thief is hard to actually be good at. There are only a handful of good thieves out there. The rest are fotm thieves.

Too be good at thief you have to have good positioning (most important), good timing (with abilities and dodges), know how to play mind games, know what each combo field and finisher does (very important), and know what every class can do and what their abilities look like (as all good players should know).

Death blossom is horrible? lol, don’t spam it and then be useless after a condition swipe or shift, balance your initiave vs professions that can counter condition.

Malkavian.3751:

Analyzing this, it’s NOT FAIR for a burst thief to jump on ANY opponent and kill him in 2 secs, with 3 moves.

Yes it is. If I’m a thief and sacrifice virtually everything (survivability, mobility, etc…) for good single target DPS I can only do once per minute if I set it up correctly, then yes that’s perfectly fair.

You’re acting like D/D burst is some simple I press 1 button and I always win build, when it’s not. Positioning has to be perfect, cooldowns have to be up, the stun needs to be unbroken, etc..

As i said earlier, the 30-30-0-0-10 build is absolutely unviable.

A serious, tourney, backstab build DOESN’T rely on a single, one shot for glory, backstab, relies on multiple C&D+ backstab combo.

If you build everything for THAT backstab, than you’re not viable, not at all, and i would’t never expect to win any 1vs1 against any serious opponent.

If you build THAT way, an ele is a far better roamer than you for tourneys.

I’m talking about serious matches, not pug battles.

Payneful.7934:

Too be good at thief you have to have good positioning (most important), good timing (with abilities and dodges), know how to play mind games, know what each combo field and finisher does (very important), and know what every class can do and what their abilities look like (as all good players should know).

The same applies to all other classes. This adding the fact they need to use multiple attacks, sometimes extremely long combos, in order to achieve what the thief achieves with 2 hits.

I was a beta tester, i’ve probably played the thief more than 80 % of people in this forum. I also play other classes as well ( altough no one comes close to being as fun as the thief, aside the mesmer).

I’m going back to what i said in the OP : if you really think being a good thief requires skill, than you should reconsidere how skilled you are.

Being a good thief is nothing like , in terms of skill, being a good ele or a good necro, or a good engeneer.

Sorry.

@blazer

I know the thief won’t be redesigned any time soon. I would simply question aNet about their choice: if they’re really going to nerf the thief into oblivion ( something i fear will happen very soon), then why don’t they start questioning their very choices when they made this class ?

We’ll see.

Before beta weekends you and I predicted this exact same problem with Initiative and that it will lead to this playstyle, Arenanet knew this and chose this as the path for Thief. The only chance we had was pre-beta, if the Thief is going to get a redesign it will be in an expansion pack which will be another year or two.

I don’t think they will nerf every viable thief build, they won’t go further than an Assassin’s Signet nerf, steal damage trait nerf.

Thief is in a good spot, it has 1 condition build that is insane (the best in my opinion), it has a good support build with venom share and it had multiple burst damage builds that have been adjusted.

The complexity that you and I wanted for the Thief isn’t there, the Thief is the FPS profession of GW2, only thing that matters is reaction and timing. You won’t have cool combinations like a warrior, elementalist or engineer etc. This fact will also prevent Arenanet from changing the Thief because a lot of people like this playstyle.

Paynful-

You make it sound as everything you said apply’s the most to this profession…. it applies to every profession.

A bad warrior is a bad warrior nothing changes.

The only difference is other class’s aren’t as forgiving. A thief can get away with not knowing how to play and still be better then average.

Opps I messed up, run away stealth try again. Other class’s dont get a get out of jail free card when they screw up…. well maybe mez’s, which are much harder to master imo.

Namu.5712:

Paynful-

You make it sound as everything you said apply’s the most to this profession…. it applies to every profession.

A bad warrior is a bad warrior nothing changes.

The only difference is other class’s aren’t as forgiving. A thief can get away with not knowing how to play and still be better then average.

Opps I messed up, run away stealth try again. Other class’s dont get a get out of jail free card when they screw up…. well maybe mez’s, which are much harder to master imo.

Going to disagree there big time.
I have thief and mesmer at 80 in full exotic (I can prove it too unlike most) that I use in wvwvw and sometimes in spvp. Mes was hands down the easiest to master between the 2.

Namu.5712:

Paynful-

You make it sound as everything you said apply’s the most to this profession…. it applies to every profession.

A bad warrior is a bad warrior nothing changes.

The only difference is other class’s aren’t as forgiving. A thief can get away with not knowing how to play and still be better then average.

Opps I messed up, run away stealth try again. Other class’s dont get a get out of jail free card when they screw up…. well maybe mez’s, which are much harder to master imo.

Thief has more “get out of jail free cards” because they will get in jail faster. Other professions don’t need get out of jail free cards because they are more durable.

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

Namu.5712:

Paynful-

You make it sound as everything you said apply’s the most to this profession…. it applies to every profession.

A bad warrior is a bad warrior nothing changes.

The only difference is other class’s aren’t as forgiving. A thief can get away with not knowing how to play and still be better then average.

Opps I messed up, run away stealth try again. Other class’s dont get a get out of jail free card when they screw up…. well maybe mez’s, which are much harder to master imo.

Thief has more “get out of jail free cards” because they will get in jail faster. Other professions don’t need get out of jail free cards because they are more durable.

But that durability doesn’t mean much against a thief. Thats where the problem comes in with our profession. Risk vs reward, we have high risk, sure if the opponent can lock us down…. which most of the time they can’t in my experience anyways.

We have the high burst/dps, and we have the mobility to get out if it goes the wrong way. Those two things are cause for concern and why there is so much chatter about this profession in particular. We are in a way more durable because taking no damage is better then tanking damage. And we are the best profession at avoiding damage completely.

Its not hard to dodge a backstab build, but its hard to dodge a back stab build when:
A. they are invisible
B. have more mobility

This assumes the thief didn’t throw away their mobility.

But the stealth issue is still a problem.

The real problem is the people abusing it intentionally I think. People that KNOW the other player can’t see them when they are attacking.

Knyx.5926:

Namu.5712:

Paynful-

You make it sound as everything you said apply’s the most to this profession…. it applies to every profession.

A bad warrior is a bad warrior nothing changes.

The only difference is other class’s aren’t as forgiving. A thief can get away with not knowing how to play and still be better then average.

Opps I messed up, run away stealth try again. Other class’s dont get a get out of jail free card when they screw up…. well maybe mez’s, which are much harder to master imo.

Going to disagree there big time.
I have thief and mesmer at 80 in full exotic (I can prove it too unlike most) that I use in wvwvw and sometimes in spvp. Mes was hands down the easiest to master between the 2.

I played mesmer for a little bit I just didn’t like the feel of it, thought it was much harder then my thief. Guess its a matter of opinion really, that and play style.

That’s why people complain, and they’re right.

What people? Almost all of the people I’ve seen complaining about thieves are not tPvP players. They’re WvW players mostly, with some sPvP mixed in. Those pubstomper builds are precisely what they’re complaining about. You’re the first person I’ve heard even mention thieves being OP in tPvP.

Namu.5712:

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

Namu.5712:

Paynful-

You make it sound as everything you said apply’s the most to this profession…. it applies to every profession.

A bad warrior is a bad warrior nothing changes.

The only difference is other class’s aren’t as forgiving. A thief can get away with not knowing how to play and still be better then average.

Opps I messed up, run away stealth try again. Other class’s dont get a get out of jail free card when they screw up…. well maybe mez’s, which are much harder to master imo.

Thief has more “get out of jail free cards” because they will get in jail faster. Other professions don’t need get out of jail free cards because they are more durable.

But that durability doesn’t mean much against a thief. Thats where the problem comes in with our profession. Risk vs reward, we have high risk, sure if the opponent can lock us down…. which most of the time they can’t in my experience anyways.

We have the high burst/dps, and we have the mobility to get out if it goes the wrong way. Those two things are cause for concern and why there is so much chatter about this profession in particular. We are in a way more durable because taking no damage is better then tanking damage. And we are the best profession at avoiding damage completely.

Its not hard to dodge a backstab build, but its hard to dodge a back stab build when:
A. they are invisible
B. have more mobility

This assumes the thief didn’t throw away their mobility.

But the stealth issue is still a problem.

The real problem is the people abusing it intentionally I think. People that KNOW the other player can’t see them when they are attacking.

1. Backstab build is a joke in tPvP, venom share and conditions are better.
2. Thieves not taking damage? that is duo to their evades, not mobility.
3. What good does it do if the thief runs away from you? Don’t chace him, go get a base. This is conquest after all.
4. Stealth is fine.
5. Thief mobility is a bit too good at the moment because of the nature of conquest, if you nerf that you will have to improve their defence. That is why you don’t see any Thief bunkers, but you see that multiple thief builds all can be a roamer.
6. Backstab builds 2 shotting people from nowhere is not a mobility problem, but a damage problem. Just nerf that idiotic steal trait and change Assassin’s Signet to give 5-10 stacks of might for 5-8 sec and the Thief will be the most balanced class in the game.

Thief is designed to be mobile, period.

I’ve been kittening about Initiative for months now. It’s a flawed concept and will never seem fair or balanced.

The thing people seem to forget though is that Initiative isn’t just overpowered in that it allows us to spam our most efficient attacks, but it’s also holding us back.

You see, as long as we can chain 2-3 identical attacks, none of these can be really powerful in themselves. We won’t ever get CC, interrupts or any interesting skills really as long as we are able to spam our core abilities.

I too think it needs to go…nothing else will truly fix the problem.

But I’m afraid ANet is too occupied to deal with this kind of “luxury problem” right now.

Blazer- I wasn’t saying they weren’t designed to be mobile I was just stating that the mobility on top of massive dps is the problem…. and evades count as mobility in my book. Especially since you can increase endurance recharge rate on a thief. 25% speed boost plus rolls…. thats mobility. Far better mobility then other professions save maybe a ele. Oh and almost forgot swiftness on roll…. if you trait for it.

Namu.5712:

Blazer- I wasn’t saying they weren’t designed to be mobile I was just stating that the mobility on top of massive dps is the problem…. and evades count as mobility in my book. Especially since you can increase endurance recharge rate on a thief. 25% speed boost plus rolls…. thats mobility. Far better mobility then other professions save maybe a ele. Oh and almost forgot swiftness on roll…. if you trait for it.

Swiftness on roll is minor trait and every thief that goes in acrobatic traits gets it. Evades are not mobility, they do not increase speed directly or travel large distance, evades are defensive. Mobility is teleports, swiftness, portals and abilities that zap you to your target. Thief is not the only profession that can increase their endurance recharge, Warrior’s and Engineers can do that too and they have two times stronger passive defence than a squishy Thief.

I know that getting 2 shotted from nowhere is not fun, when I play my power crit builds I experience this from Backstab thieves. The problem is not the mobility, it is the damage. Redesign Assassin’s Signet to avoid 1 shot backstab and remove the Steal trait that makes steal deal damage and it’s fixed.

You know why Stealth and Shadow step’s are present in most Thief/Assassin/Rogue classes? because these are the iconic and most popular attributes to the people that play these classes. I always main Thief/Assassin/Rogue in any game I play. If you take away Stealth or Shadow Steps then you might aswell delete Thief profession, I am not even joking.

Shadow Signet was bandaid fix to Thieves because they lacked swiftness, there is an audio transcript of arenanet developers and balance testers talking about it and deciding to add it (pre-beta? don’t remember).

Well thats true I wouldn’t play the profession without those skills flat out. But your right the stacking to increase damage to a amount where the person getting hit is like “what just happened” oh invisible thief…. has gotta change. But not so much that players are in a situation where if they go any other build other than pure dps/burst that they do no damage and cant take anyone down.

bwillb.2165:

That’s why people complain, and they’re right.

What people? Almost all of the people I’ve seen complaining about thieves are not tPvP players. They’re WvW players mostly, with some sPvP mixed in. Those pubstomper builds are precisely what they’re complaining about. You’re the first person I’ve heard even mention thieves being OP in tPvP.

I never said the thief is OP in tPvP. I simply stated that currently, it performs its role A LOT better than other classes ( roamer).

A good roamer is never a real threat by itself ( aka: not OP), but if you take it into coordination, it’s totally game changing. Even more if you think the thief is the most mobile class with the most versatile, little requirments, repeatable burst.

As i said in the OP, dual daggers ( both condition and power) are everything you need to be a thief. MAYBE P/D, but only with venom share.

Any other set up is completely worthless.

Be it game mode fault, be it the thief not being balanced, be it other sets being bad designed. Be it anything you want: they’re all true.

And all those things are ruining the fun for all other players ( for istance, those engies who can’t be a roamer and are forced to go defensive, or those warriors neglected in teams because teams want bunkers + roamer and the roamer is ALMOST ALWAYS a thief).

Fact is the thief can’t stay this way: other weapon sets need to be brought up to par , and it’s not going to be easy, since the thief is already imba as it is.

I have absolutely no idea what they could do to.

Doesn’t imba mean pretty much the same thing as OP in this context?

I’ll agree that some other weapon sets should see improvements though. Namely the sword sets, they’re just too slow and cumbersome for the thief style unless you have haste. But then again, they just gave one of them a flat 15% nerf… Maybe they WANT us to all be D/D?

I agree with the OP.

I think we can all agree that a thief class is very delicate. You change too much to the class and it will fall to the bottom of the class hiearchy.

On one hand, stealth and mobility cannot be touched because that is a thief’s primary defensive kit. Thieves have nothing else which protects them from oncoming damage, unlike other classes. Decreasing the damage on certain thief skills also have dire consequences if such a decision was made too hastily. You don’t want a pure dps class to be outdamaged by burst damage/tank classes, nor do you want a range class outdpsing a melee class. Take too much damage away from a thief, and the role of being a thief is decreased by 50%, since other classes can potentially do the thief’s job better than the thief: damage.

On the other hand, certain pvp structures emphasize on speed and efficiency, and stealth is just an added bonus to said efficiency. In all types of pvp, whether it’d be killing or taking objectives, relies on how fast and how well you perform those tasks. You can argue a thief has both of those traits which enables them to becoming a great pvp class. The matter of how much damage a thief produces basically comes from how easily a thief positions himself through stealth and the quickness buff. Aside from that, everyother class has their own version of producing excellent dps rotations and not just the thief.

Frankly, us thief players are all annoyed by the constant dispute over whether our class is severely unbalanced or not. Some are annoyed by the fact that their favorite playstyle has been ruined while others are annoyed by the fact that they’re not receiving proper merit for playing their class well. However, this talk of a complete rework is a huge gamble to all thief players, and I don’t think anyone has realized that just yet. To suggest a rework on a thief would mean to change how a thief behaves right now, which is through speed and stealth. To actually ask ArenaNet for a rework on thieves would basically mean to change the way a thief should behave in combat. In other words, a rework on thieves could very well potentially change the way thief mobility and stealth works in GW2. Despite how broken people think my class is, I personally am not prepared to take the risk of having to adapt on a stealth or mobility rework on my class. I’m pretty sure the majority of thief players don’t as well.

Be very careful on what you’re asking for, even though ArenaNet has no intention of completely remaking the thief class (As Blaze mentioned). However, you’re giving them ideas, and those ideas can potentially ruin your favorite class.

I think the excellent point that the OP is trying to make clear is that in its current state thief will never be balanced. Being based around one-button spam builds means that either the “button” will be overpowered or it will be underpowered.

ehtom.5047:

I think the excellent point that the OP is trying to make clear is that in its current state thief will never be balanced. Being based around one-button spam builds means that either the “button” will be overpowered or it will be underpowered.

Which button would that be?

ehtom.5047:

I think the excellent point that the OP is trying to make clear is that in its current state thief will never be balanced. Being based around one-button spam builds means that either the “button” will be overpowered or it will be underpowered.

That is what Arenanet wanted, deal with it. Good Thieves don’t spam the same ability back to back, they time it and make sure it lands.

Lan.1968:

I think we can all agree that a thief class is very delicate. You change too much to the class and it will fall to the bottom of the class hiearchy.

On one hand, stealth and mobility cannot be touched because that is a thief’s primary defensive kit. Thieves have nothing else which protects them from oncoming damage, unlike other classes. Decreasing the damage on certain thief skills also have dire consequences if such a decision was made too hastily. You don’t want a pure dps class to be outdamaged by burst damage/tank classes, nor do you want a range class outdpsing a melee class. Take too much damage away from a thief, and the role of being a thief is decreased by 50%, since other classes can potentially do the thief’s job better than the thief: damage.

On the other hand, certain pvp structures emphasize on speed and efficiency, and stealth is just an added bonus to said efficiency. In all types of pvp, whether it’d be killing or taking objectives, relies on how fast and how well you perform those tasks. You can argue a thief has both of those traits which enables them to becoming a great pvp class. The matter of how much damage a thief produces basically comes from how easily a thief positions himself through stealth and the quickness buff. Aside from that, everyother class has their own version of producing excellent dps rotations and not just the thief.

Frankly, us thief players are all annoyed by the constant dispute over whether our class is severely unbalanced or not. Some are annoyed by the fact that their favorite playstyle has been ruined while others are annoyed by the fact that they’re not receiving proper merit for playing their class well. However, this talk of a complete rework is a huge gamble to all thief players, and I don’t think anyone has realized that just yet. To suggest a rework on a thief would mean to change how a thief behaves right now, which is through speed and stealth. To actually ask ArenaNet for a rework on thieves would basically mean to change the way a thief should behave in combat. In other words, a rework on thieves could very well potentially change the way thief mobility and stealth works in GW2. Despite how broken people think my class is, I personally am not prepared to take the risk of having to adapt on a stealth or mobility rework on my class. I’m pretty sure the majority of thief players don’t as well.

Be very careful on what you’re asking for, even though ArenaNet has no intention of completely remaking the thief class (As Blaze mentioned). However, you’re giving them ideas, and those ideas can potentially ruin your favorite class.

I absolutely don’t want to change how thief mobility and stealth work.
This game stealth is probably the most dynamic kind of stealth ever seen.

The things they could change is how our burst is managed ( C&D+ backstab is too simple and repeatable for the damage it provides: for example they could introduce stuff like “combos”, like the old sin in GW, or points like “WoW rogue”, in order to create more variations) while they bring other weapon sets up to par, increasing the choice with builds.

As things stand now, and this is coming from an S/D thief forced to go D/D in tourneys, there’s no real choice.

The focus on stealth and mobility is there: the only thing they should do is to balance the other stuff ( burst, sustained dps, support, control) around it, in a different way than how it is now.

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

ehtom.5047:

I think the excellent point that the OP is trying to make clear is that in its current state thief will never be balanced. Being based around one-button spam builds means that either the “button” will be overpowered or it will be underpowered.

That is what Arenanet wanted, deal with it. Good Thieves don’t spam the same ability back to back, they time it and make sure it lands.

As long as tons of builds are viable, i’m fine with it.

But as long as 3/4 of our weapon sets are completely useless, i’m no more fine.

I believe some serious changes should be done about:

Assassin signet → needs change, dunno how, but needs change

S/D → needs Flanking strike rehaul

S/P → needs pistol whip rethinking

Sword in general → auto attack speed should be quickened by a raw 15 %

P/P → needs Body Shot rethinking. Needs Unload rethinking

D/P → needs Shadow Shot rethinking

Steal → needs a reduced CD + reduced damage on mug. I’d rather prefer a rehaul of Steal, too, but it’s not coming anytime soon.

Traits → some stuff in order to increase build diversity. I have no idea about it.

I agree that the other thief builds need to be more attractive, but its not a factor of them being non-existent or terrible. They’re just a lot harder to play. Currently with his stealth and mobility, the thief class benefits the most from glass cannon builds. More so than any other class. It’s got other options, but the high damage output option takes the best advantage of the innate stealth and mobility this class provides.

Also, its the easiest build to play in the class.

Blazer Hellsing.9184:

ehtom.5047:

I think the excellent point that the OP is trying to make clear is that in its current state thief will never be balanced. Being based around one-button spam builds means that either the “button” will be overpowered or it will be underpowered.

That is what Arenanet wanted, deal with it. Good Thieves don’t spam the same ability back to back, they time it and make sure it lands.

The problem is they still only have 1 damaging ability, unless you’re talking dagger/dagger thieves.

Sword/Pistol will always have to use pistol whip until the pistol offhand skills do decent damage and infiltrator’s strike does decent damage.

A lot of people just don’t understand it, they say oh but the offhand pistol skills have such great utility, and they do, but when people get blown up by a thief and look in their damage log, they will see that 90% of the damage is done by 1 skill, precisely because it is the one skill on their bar that does damage.