Guild Wars 2

Because I have all character classes I can do comparisons…
What I did was compare Warrior to Thief in head to head damage.

Warrior greatsword vs thief dagger.

I did these tests on practice dummies of each classes types.

The warrior has 20962 HP and the thief is 13395 for a ratio of 1.56

White damage per hit averages: W: 796.5 vs. T: 942.3
Rush vs deathblossom: W:2001.9 vs T:957.8
Whirlwind vs. Cloak and dagger W:2241.1 vs T: 1930.2
Arcing slice vs Heartseeker W:2877.7 vs T:2324.5
Hundred blades vs. Backstab W:6381.6 vs 5148.7

As you can see the warrior does more damage per skill use with the exception of white damage.

Now consider that health ratio mentioned earlier. When scaled to health the thief is doing around half the damage a warrior does.

Now further consider a great-sword warrior does not need stealth as they can just turn and burn away without anyone catching them. They have just as easy an escape as a thief..maybe easier.

Further consider that the armor buff they get never gets removed only slightly reduced by vulnerabilities 1% at a time.

Further consider that you can shout and spec as a regen warrior and not lose all that much damage.

Lastly consider the range the greatsword covers and does AOE damage essentially.

Let us not forget the invulns warriors get as well.

BTW: I rarely die on any character I play in WvW, So I think I have a fairly good grasp on how things work.

Well, you have to look further into it than just comparing pure numbers.

For the instance when a thief is fighting a warrior, the thief have tools to mitigate the damage that comes from the warrior. You can whirl in smoke field to blind, hide in stealth to wait out the endure pain, etc. Your post illustrates how the thief can’t just trade damage to win against the warrior. It might be harsher on the thief, since the incompetent warrior will always win if the thief is just as incompetent.

My point is, you have to take account the tool that is available to the class rather than just its damage and health numbers.

I’m by no means saying the tools that are useful against warriors are useful against other classes, not every thing can be dodged or blinded, like instant activate skills (close range shatter) and hard hitting skills that are hard to distinguish from autos. (grenade barrage, ranger wolf knockdowns) They can only be avoided by luck, not by skill

If you’re searching for a no stealth possibility, you need to look for a tool that is versatile enough to be useful against most things, which will help you survive and deal damage. Like the guardian’s instant cast meditation heal, or the eles’ might stacking combo with signet of restoration, or the warrior’s having just plain more damage and more health.

I know this is a lot to read, but this is what I discovered when I’m trying to do a no stealth build. I hope you have fun creating such build. The best I come up with is using soldier amulet and Impacting Disruption, basically trolling people with CC while dodging all the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1KGHjYkl7w

Yeah, I’m not into the PvP scene enough to say that a Thief can be balanced without stealth, but it should be possible, that seems to be the goal of the Daredevil spec. The way it would achieve that is not to have standing damage equal to a Warrior, able to just stand there and trade blows, but rather in the Thief’s ability to reduce the damage being dealt, making his opponent more vulnerable to damage, and avoiding damage via evades (preferably evades that also damage the opponent).

Basically, a Warrior should be like Wolverine, and the Thief should be like Spider-Man. If they just stand there trading blows, Spidey wouldn’t last long, but if Spider-Man’s bouncing around and throwing punches as he moves, Wolverine can barely touch him so his damage potential is moot.

Ohoni.6057:

Basically, a Warrior should be like Wolverine, and the Thief should be like Spider-Man. If they just stand there trading blows, Spidey wouldn’t last long, but if Spider-Man’s bouncing around and throwing punches as he moves, Wolverine can barely touch him so his damage potential is moot.

Awkwardly enough, one of the best simile I’ve seen in a while. Go spidey

Now, one thing that is a matter of concern, and which I don’t think the devs have fully accounted for, is what happens outside of a 1 v 1 scenario. Let’s say they do balance a Thief out to be good at 1 v 1, based on applying things like vuln to make the enemy more susceptible to damage, and Weakness to make the enemy deal less damage. And let’s say that as long as they keep these stacks up, they would be able to deal as much dps to that target and receive as many attacks from that target as a Warrior can through brute strength/toughness. That’s in balance so far.

But then apply that to a massive group fight, in which there are enough characters around that maximum Vuln and Weakness are being applied to the boss mob. Well suddenly the Thief is still doing “Warrior balanced” damage, while the Warrior is benefiting from all that debuff too, and so he’s dealing Thief+ extra damage, and likewise, the enemy is only dealing Warrior-level damage to the Thief, while the Warrior is taking considerably less of that thanks to the debuffs. So basically the Thief is now just dealing less damage and taking more again.

So whatever system they implement, it needs to take that into account, and make sure that the Thief himself benefits from those effects in a way that a Warrior cannot share, so that the Thief is the one still dealing and receiving equivalent damage to the Warrior, even while they’re fighting the same mob. Applying buffs that the whole party can benefit from is nice, so long as they are impossible to cap out, but they also need to be able to make themselves essential contributors.

Ohoni.6057:

Now, one thing that is a matter of concern, and which I don’t think the devs have fully accounted for, is what happens outside of a 1 v 1 scenario. Let’s say they do balance a Thief out to be good at 1 v 1, based on applying things like vuln to make the enemy more susceptible to damage, and Weakness to make the enemy deal less damage. And let’s say that as long as they keep these stacks up, they would be able to deal as much dps to that target and receive as many attacks from that target as a Warrior can through brute strength/toughness. That’s in balance so far.

But then apply that to a massive group fight, in which there are enough characters around that maximum Vuln and Weakness are being applied to the boss mob. Well suddenly the Thief is still doing “Warrior balanced” damage, while the Warrior is benefiting from all that debuff too, and so he’s dealing Thief+ extra damage, and likewise, the enemy is only dealing Warrior-level damage to the Thief, while the Warrior is taking considerably less of that thanks to the debuffs. So basically the Thief is now just dealing less damage and taking more again.

So whatever system they implement, it needs to take that into account, and make sure that the Thief himself benefits from those effects in a way that a Warrior cannot share, so that the Thief is the one still dealing and receiving equivalent damage to the Warrior, even while they’re fighting the same mob. Applying buffs that the whole party can benefit from is nice, so long as they are impossible to cap out, but they also need to be able to make themselves essential contributors.

Having weakness and vulnerability application is valuable for the whole group, thus increasing the value of thief in a group scenario.

That being said, a simple solution would be minor traits increasing damage/decreasing damage if said target has vulnerability / weakness.

We already have a GM minor trait in Deadly Arts: Exposed Weakness (10% damage increase if target has 1 condition +) If we had weakness increase damage reduction through thief traits, or if we had vulnerability increase damage dealth through thief traits, that would be a simple 1 way balance that’d keep us in line with others while helping them.

Having weakness and vulnerability application is valuable for the whole group, thus increasing the value of thief in a group scenario.

It can be, but it’s a matter of diminishing returns. If one Thief could hit the Vuln/Weak cap, then you’d only need one. If two can, you only need two. If ten can, you’d only need ten, it all depends on what the content is, but chances are you’ll hit that it will cap out at some point. Weakness capts at five stacks, and only stacks in duration anyways. Vuln stacks to 25, but that’s it, and plenty of classes make it rain on Vuln. For it to really matter, it needs to matter no matter how many other players are providing that function.

We already have a GM minor trait in Deadly Arts: Exposed Weakness (10% damage increase if target has 1 condition +) If we had weakness increase damage reduction through thief traits, or if we had vulnerability increase damage dealth through thief traits, that would be a simple 1 way balance that’d keep us in line with others while helping them.

Sure, that’s what’s needed, something that would give the Thief exclusive benefits above and beyond what anyone else would be getting from that effect, to balance out the raw lower base dps and lower base damage absorption.

Skeletor.9360:

Because I have all character classes I can do comparisons…
Warrior greatsword vs thief dagger.

The warrior has 20962 HP and the thief is 13395 for a ratio of 1.56

White damage per hit averages: W: 796.5 vs. T: 942.3
Rush vs deathblossom: W:2001.9 vs T:957.8
Whirlwind vs. Cloak and dagger W:2241.1 vs T: 1930.2
Arcing slice vs Heartseeker W:2877.7 vs T:2324.5
Hundred blades vs. Backstab W:6381.6 vs 5148.7

Where do I even begin with this…

For starters, I guess I’ll start by saying Thief/War are my two mains, so I have decent experience with both. And right out of the gate I can tell you this comparison is bad.

Health Pools are what they are. Warriors have more health/armor than a thief, and this is just a fact of life. But Warriors have almost no evasive abilities and instead need to focus on mitigation (which is a very different thing), so the difference is justified.

As for white damage, a greatsword full combo is almost twice as long as a thief’s full dagger combo, and a thief applies poison with his basic attacks (so more damage and -33% healing). And not only that, but as your list shows, Thieves are hitting harder per hit as well.

Now comparing Rush with Death Blossom is how I knew this list was going to be bad. Rush is a janky ability that usually doesn’t even work as intended, and has a decent CD tied to it, while Death Blossom is designed for Condition damage in mind (so why you are even comparing the white damage between the two is insane). Not only that, but Death Blossom provides evasion as well, and can be used to completely avoid attacks.

Whirlwind would have been a better skill to compare to Death Blossom, but instead you did CnD. And CnD is simply the better of the two. Whirlwind has decent burst, but CnD literally forces your opponent to deselect you if it hits and puts you in stealth, all while applying Vulnerability. It isn’t meant to be a heavy hitting ability, it is a setup for a heavy hitting ability, and provides insane utility all in one skill.

Arcing Slice vs Heartseeker: One requires a full energy source and is the entire class’ main gimmick all tied to a CD once it is used, and the other is a spammable skill for the thief that does comparable damage despite this. I really don’t see where the complaint lies.

100b vs Backstab: One is a channeled skill that roots the user in place while the other is a positional skill that needs to be used in stealth (which the Thief has plenty of), but can be used while moving, and can be guaranteed a full damage crit if traited, where 100b cannot. Did I also mention that 100b can be rolled out of before it can even ramp up damage, whereas a backstab has already dealt it’s intended damage by the time your opponent sees it happen?

I’m not saying Warrior is a bad class by ANY means, but this comparison is downright insane.