Guild Wars 2

Short and to the point – currently in PvP, S/D’s hardest hitting moves (Crippling strike, second swing of FS) are extremely easy to see coming- even with AA off and attempting to time my swings, I tend to watch players dodge these attacks whenever they can afford to. They do this because its a big chunk of sword DPS, and you can see them coming a mile away.

For both AA and FS, the other swings have the same timings, so why not just average the damage across all the swings?

So you have something to dodge, that’s why.

Yeah, and personally I think they should also “normalise” KS. Make it instant cast because it’s so stupid people just dodge it.

WyldKat.4712:

So you have something to dodge, that’s why.

So normalize them and let people dodge one of the swings to take 1/3 (or 1/2) less damage – sword already completely lacks burst (which is fine, but still a fact). Making its only hard hitting abilities easy to see and slow to execute seems silly on top of that fact.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Yeah, and personally I think they should also “normalise” KS. Make it instant cast because it’s so stupid people just dodge it.

Split the damage into 3 shots, each with a 1/2 second cast time, the last of which does 60% more damage than the first 2, and you’ll have a point.

Edit: Oh! Also reduce the range to 130 and give it a really hard to miss animation, so people can see it coming a mile away. Also reduce the overall damage by 33%, since you’re talking about a burst damage skill, and I’m talking about a weaponset that relies on consistent damage to win fights.

I mean, I think dodge rewards the people who stay level-headed, can see what weps you’re packing, and see your moves coming, by letting them dodge the burst hits.

evilapprentice.6379:

WyldKat.4712:

So you have something to dodge, that’s why.

So normalize them and let people dodge one of the swings to take 1/3 (or 1/2) less damage – sword already completely lacks burst (which is fine, but still a fact). Making its only hard hitting abilities easy to see and slow to execute seems silly on top of that fact.

You can hit 9k with FS if you want to with 1 util which prob isnt needed before accounting for mug which can also hit 5k or a flame blast for an addition 1k. The attack animation is what 1.3 seconds? Anet…wants telegraphed moves for reaction.

evilapprentice.6379:

Short and to the point – currently in PvP, S/D’s hardest hitting moves (Crippling strike, second swing of FS) are extremely easy to see coming- even with AA off and attempting to time my swings, I tend to watch players dodge these attacks whenever they can afford to. They do this because its a big chunk of sword DPS, and you can see them coming a mile away.

For both AA and FS, the other swings have the same timings, so why not just average the damage across all the swings?

Sword swings are too slow that you can perform FS in between swings to be less predictable…oops, I said too much.

WyldKat.4712:

I mean, I think dodge rewards the people who stay level-headed, can see what weps you’re packing, and see your moves coming, by letting them dodge the burst hits.

I agree in most cases, except sword doesn’t have any other options. You try to dodge big burst moves (HB, Unload, Blurred Frenzy)… but sword doesn’t have big burst moves – it just has swings that hit harder to give the weapon set decent consistent damage, and are extremely easy to see coming.

Players will still have incentive to dodge crippling strike (It’ll still apply crippled and weakness). For FS, the incentive to dodge really -should- be on the first swing (unblockable, evade during use, removes a boon), but sadly in the current meta, most classes would rather eat the lesser damage and boon strip then the big swing that comes afterwards. Perhaps FS doesn’t need normalization, and instead some other balancing that makes it a more difficult choice between dodging the first and second swing.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Short and to the point – currently in PvP, S/D’s hardest hitting moves (Crippling strike, second swing of FS) are extremely easy to see coming- even with AA off and attempting to time my swings, I tend to watch players dodge these attacks whenever they can afford to. They do this because its a big chunk of sword DPS, and you can see them coming a mile away.

For both AA and FS, the other swings have the same timings, so why not just average the damage across all the swings?

Sword swings are too slow that you can perform FS in between swings to be less predictable…oops, I said too much.

I fail to see how using FS in the middle of Sword AA (Which in effect delays or sacrifices crippling strike entirely) would make the second swing of FS any less predictable – I suppose you could FS Mid crippling strike (after they’ve dodged), but that doesn’t really change much.

Look at dagger – there’s some conceivable reason to dodge each and every strike from AA – Double strike does the best damage, Wild Strike restores 10% endurance, and lotus strike poisons (and with 15 DA, weakens). For the most part, you’ll probably want to dodge lotus strike, but there are conceivable reasons to dodge any part of the AA Chain.

With sword, there’s absolutely no incentive to dodge anything but crippling strike – its far and above the best. Maybe damage normalization isn’t the answer, but there should be some reason to dodge slice and slash – maybe put the weakness on slice, the cripple on slash, and keep Crippling strike (now a poorly named skill, since it doesnt cripple or weaken in this proposed version) as the big damage finishing swing to AA rotation.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Short and to the point – currently in PvP, S/D’s hardest hitting moves (Crippling strike, second swing of FS) are extremely easy to see coming- even with AA off and attempting to time my swings, I tend to watch players dodge these attacks whenever they can afford to. They do this because its a big chunk of sword DPS, and you can see them coming a mile away.

For both AA and FS, the other swings have the same timings, so why not just average the damage across all the swings?

Sword swings are too slow that you can perform FS in between swings to be less predictable…oops, I said too much.

I fail to see how using FS in the middle of Sword AA (Which in effect delays or sacrifices crippling strike entirely) would make the second swing of FS any less predictable – I suppose you could FS Mid crippling strike (after they’ve dodged), but that doesn’t really change much.

I think you got things mixed up. The second strike of FS is not Crippling Strike since Crippling Strike is the 3rd attack of Sword AA.

My point was, you need to faint your attacks to be less predictable. If you purposely interrupt your own AA with FS, your target will reserve their dodges/evades for FS then you can AA away having your 3rd AA (Crippling Strike) hit all the time.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Short and to the point – currently in PvP, S/D’s hardest hitting moves (Crippling strike, second swing of FS) are extremely easy to see coming- even with AA off and attempting to time my swings, I tend to watch players dodge these attacks whenever they can afford to. They do this because its a big chunk of sword DPS, and you can see them coming a mile away.

For both AA and FS, the other swings have the same timings, so why not just average the damage across all the swings?

Sword swings are too slow that you can perform FS in between swings to be less predictable…oops, I said too much.

I fail to see how using FS in the middle of Sword AA (Which in effect delays or sacrifices crippling strike entirely) would make the second swing of FS any less predictable – I suppose you could FS Mid crippling strike (after they’ve dodged), but that doesn’t really change much.

I think you got things mixed up. The second strike of FS is not Crippling Strike since Crippling Strike is the 3rd attack of Sword AA.

My point was, you need to faint your attacks to be less predictable. If you purposely interrupt your own AA with FS, your target will reserve their dodges/evades for FS then you can AA away having your 3rd AA (Crippling Strike) hit all the time.

Your suggestion is generic – “If you get your opponents to dodge other moves, your AA will hit” works for nearly any spec. It doesn’t touch on the fact that of swords 2 best hits are telegraphed, slow, and scream “Dodge me” every time they’re used, in addition to the fact that there’s little reason to dodge the other swings (slice, slash, the first strike of FS) because they’re so clearly inferior. You haven’t given an opponent any reason to dodge slice, slash or the first swing of FS.

AA is bullkitten attack, bullkitten attack, attack you need to dodge. Instead, each attack should have some reason for it to be worth dodging it – in my example above (mid damage + weakness->mid damage +cripple->big damage with no conditions), a conditions spec doesn’t really care about weakness, a spec with alot of escapes might not care about the cripple, and a large HP pool spec might choose to eat the big damage swing to keep fighting back. Just like dagger, each swing has something that makes it unique, there isn’t a clear dodge priority that’s universal regardless whatever your targets spec and class is.

FS is still tricky – like I said in an earlier post, on paper the first swing should clearly be dodge priority for most opponents- it strips a boon, you’re evading for the entirety of the execution, and it ignores block – if it weren’t for the current meta, FS would perfectly fit my criteria; each swing has different characteristics that make them unique, and choosing which one to dodge is actually a tough decision (influenced by your targets spec). Unfortunately due to the current meta, a single boon strip and kittenty damage is generally less problematic for a player than straight up heavy damage. The design of FS is sound (stripping a boon -should- be a big deal), but the current meta makes the choice trivial.

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

evilapprentice.6379:

Short and to the point – currently in PvP, S/D’s hardest hitting moves (Crippling strike, second swing of FS) are extremely easy to see coming- even with AA off and attempting to time my swings, I tend to watch players dodge these attacks whenever they can afford to. They do this because its a big chunk of sword DPS, and you can see them coming a mile away.

For both AA and FS, the other swings have the same timings, so why not just average the damage across all the swings?

Sword swings are too slow that you can perform FS in between swings to be less predictable…oops, I said too much.

I fail to see how using FS in the middle of Sword AA (Which in effect delays or sacrifices crippling strike entirely) would make the second swing of FS any less predictable – I suppose you could FS Mid crippling strike (after they’ve dodged), but that doesn’t really change much.

I think you got things mixed up. The second strike of FS is not Crippling Strike since Crippling Strike is the 3rd attack of Sword AA.

My point was, you need to faint your attacks to be less predictable. If you purposely interrupt your own AA with FS, your target will reserve their dodges/evades for FS then you can AA away having your 3rd AA (Crippling Strike) hit all the time.

Your suggestion is generic – “If you get your opponents to dodge other moves, your AA will hit” works for nearly any spec. It doesn’t touch on the fact that of swords 2 best hits are telegraphed, slow, and scream “Dodge me” every time they’re used, in addition to the fact that there’s little reason to dodge the other swings (slice, slash, the first strike of FS) because they’re so clearly inferior. You haven’t given an opponent any reason to dodge slice, slash or the first swing of FS.

Normalizing the damage will make your hard hitting swing mediocre and less important. :/

But the “flashy” 3rd swing is normal across the board for the different main hand weapons.

AA is bullkitten attack, bullkitten attack, attack you need to dodge. Instead, each attack should have some reason for it to be worth dodging it – in my example above (mid damage + weakness->mid damage +cripple->big damage with no conditions), a conditions spec doesn’t really care about weakness, a spec with alot of escapes might not care about the cripple, and a large HP pool spec might choose to eat the big damage swing to keep fighting back. Just like dagger, each swing has something that makes it unique, there isn’t a clear dodge priority that’s universal regardless whatever your targets spec and class is.

I see what you’re saying, thus I agree that each swing need to offer something.

What boggles my mind is Warrior deals bleeding on the first and second swing using a sword, but a Thief for some reason cannot cause bleeding. I guess our sword is dull. :/

FS is still tricky – like I said in an earlier post, on paper the first swing should clearly be dodge priority for most opponents- it strips a boon, you’re evading for the entirety of the execution, and it ignores block – if it weren’t for the current meta, FS would perfectly fit my criteria; each swing has different characteristics that make them unique, and choosing which one to dodge is actually a tough decision (influenced by your targets spec). Unfortunately due to the current meta, a single boon strip and kittenty damage is generally less problematic for a player than straight up heavy damage. The design of FS is sound (stripping a boon -should- be a big deal), but the current meta makes the choice trivial.

I’m starting to see that now also and Bountiful Theft is hardly the solution.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Normalizing the damage will make your hard hitting swing mediocre and less important. :/

But the “flashy” 3rd swing is normal across the board for the different main hand weapons.

AA is bullkitten attack, bullkitten attack, attack you need to dodge. Instead, each attack should have some reason for it to be worth dodging it – in my example above (mid damage + weakness->mid damage +cripple->big damage with no conditions), a conditions spec doesn’t really care about weakness, a spec with alot of escapes might not care about the cripple, and a large HP pool spec might choose to eat the big damage swing to keep fighting back. Just like dagger, each swing has something that makes it unique, there isn’t a clear dodge priority that’s universal regardless whatever your targets spec and class is.

I see what you’re saying, thus I agree that each swing need to offer something.

What boggles my mind is Warrior deals bleeding on the first and second swing using a sword, but a Thief for some reason cannot cause bleeding. I guess our sword is dull. :/

FS is still tricky – like I said in an earlier post, on paper the first swing should clearly be dodge priority for most opponents- it strips a boon, you’re evading for the entirety of the execution, and it ignores block – if it weren’t for the current meta, FS would perfectly fit my criteria; each swing has different characteristics that make them unique, and choosing which one to dodge is actually a tough decision (influenced by your targets spec). Unfortunately due to the current meta, a single boon strip and kittenty damage is generally less problematic for a player than straight up heavy damage. The design of FS is sound (stripping a boon -should- be a big deal), but the current meta makes the choice trivial.

I’m starting to see that now also and Bountiful Theft is hardly the solution.

Yeah, this is how my posts tend to run –
1) Make a suggestion no one likes to fix an issue that most agree actually exists
2) Eventually talk about the actual issue.

We’re at 2) now, talking about how most of swords swings give you no incentive to dodge them, making it a complete no-brainer to dodge the 2 big swings. Normalizing damage might not be the answer, but there needs to be something. If you look at other classes they have alot of unique AA’s (though some do have the same setup as sword) but thief current has the narrowest weapon selection – half of our melee weapons have AA with no unique swings except on the finisher, which automatically prioritizes it for dodge.

As for boon removal, I agree – bountiful theft is meh. If you run burst and FS->steal->Hope for Nullification proc, you can open a small burst window on a boon dependent target, but you sacrifice alot – 20 points in trickery can be a hard sell, and its on a 32-36s CD. Doesn’t help that most boon dependent specs will have those boons back up in less than 5 seconds.