Guild Wars 2

So after the pro league finals we saw not one thief present.

So before I get to suggestions on what can get thief in meta ima gowing to ask a simple question:

Y’all on board with DP not needing nerfs now?

I honestly believe a rev nerf done right would allow thief to enter meta along with minimal thief buffs. I would buff the boon strip on SD back to 2. I would slightly increase back stab and see what happens. I also advocate for less AoE kitten storm game play from all the other classes.

Thoughts?

No, I won’t change my mind – if you had gotten the point of my thread you’d know why – but you stubbornly refuse to get it.

Oh and btw – since every other profession was running Elite in this case “staff needs a buff” would be more appropriate.

Staff is fine and would need close watch on its power if proper balancing to the rest of the game took place.

In fact in a perfectly balanced game vault would need it’s damage nerfed by 30% or more. We are no where close to that so don’t worry.

It’s ok to refuse to admit your wrong but let’s work together

I’m not wrong and in fact a lot of people got my point and agreed with it.

So if staff is fine and no thief was in the finals how do you come to the conclusion that D/P needs a buff?

Jana.6831:

I’m not wrong and in fact a lot of people got my point and agreed with it.

So if staff is fine and no thief was in the finals how do you come to the conclusion that D/P needs a buff?

Never said DP needed a buff. I said a rev nerf with maybe a BS buff along with a SD buff could see thief back in meta. Other minor tweaks I would look into would be sustain/survive ones.

The important part is the absolute priority of corralling the elite specs that HoT introduced along with kitten slapping the rev in line. Once these things are done then we look into the classes that are not being represented in the meta because they might just become meta after the priority changes.

As for everyone agreeing with you about DP…I’m sorry but that debate was closed and won by yours truly. I support talks to buff under performing weaponsets on all classes. Create a “What can we do for DD” thread and I’ll contribute in spades. Just please never ever try to nerf something that isn’t OP just because you pigeonholed yourself to a weaker weaponset.

Thanks.

I think it’s a pity that you were around in that thread from start to finish – call yourself a thief expert – at least 2 people tried to explain the point to you multiple times – but you still didn’t get it.
But since you seem to be a nice person you used that very discussion in this thread as an opener to “get the discussion rolling, aight” – have fun, thief expert.

ETA: And btw – the thieves who are still around in this forum and have been for a long time know what the problem with “thief” is – contrahery to you – all of us don’t want buffs.
ETA²: Or if we want buffs it’s in case other classes won’t be nerfed or the stuff we once had access to is out of our reach. (CnD unblockable and applying blind).

Jana.6831:

I think it’s a pity that you were around in that thread from start to finish – call yourself a thief expert – at least 2 people tried to explain the point to you multiple times – but you still didn’t get it.
But since you seem to be a nice person you used that very discussion in this thread as an opener to “get the discussion rolling, aight” – have fun, thief expert.

ETA: And btw – the thieves who are still around in this forum and have been for a long time know what the problem with “thief” is – contrahery to you – all of us don’t want buffs.
ETA²: Or if we want buffs it’s in case other classes won’t be nerfed or the stuff we once had access to is out of our reach. (CnD unblockable and applying blind).

I was posting in that thread since page 1. I did take a break I think due RL being busy I think.

As for what thief needs I think I’ve outlined it pretty well. We need to bring the rest of the game down instead of power creeping the hell out of the thief. Small minor tweaks I’ve stated are simply maybe a back stab buff due to extremely weak numbers i’ve seen being posted and having larc strike remove 2 boons again.

I also stated please start a thread about DD to discuss what we can do there. I do have ideas on how to make that set better, or you can start putting ideas here to discuss. It matters not.

One thing I’ve noticed is we have to keep in mind overall game balance, and the fact that anet isn’t the greatest at balancing.

Thank you

p.s. CnD is currently unblockable and blinds with GM trait + basi venom.

Yes, with that you’re right – and now look at the microbalance that is thief vs thief – and if you do that – you might finally get my point and won’t need to provoke me in each thread you create =)

ETA: I’d like to take a different elite and not being pigeonholed into taking this, that and one of these. If anet doesn’t see that their multiple invulnerabilities are causing a cheesy game, no matter what class vs what class – then I can’t help them.

thief not need any buff

the problem is rev has same mobility and endurance gain like the thief . slove it and thief wil become relevant. also rev has more on point abilities to handle some burst (amazing healing) while thief cannot contest a point

so just nerf rev moement abilities little bit and thief will become the decap/caper for team who look for it

I think if rule of ESL " no stacking of classes" was applied to leagues we would probably see some thieves.

Revs and scrappers need some (massive) nerfs (scrapper sustain or dmg, revs moblity, REVEALED ON DEMAND) – i feel like they are one of the main reasons why thieves are not played atm (in pro league that is). They also hold other classes/builds from being used more, imo.

I don’t think DP needs buffs, if anything AAs should be toned down a bit and backstab get a buff – right now it is total lackluster compared to effort it requires. Staff 5 also needs toning down by a lot – it is too rewarding to just spam 5. Other staff spells could use some love though, they are way to often not worth using at all.

Jana.6831:

I think it’s a pity that you were around in that thread from start to finish – call yourself a thief expert – at least 2 people tried to explain the point to you multiple times – but you still didn’t get it.
But since you seem to be a nice person you used that very discussion in this thread as an opener to “get the discussion rolling, aight” – have fun, thief expert.

ETA: And btw – the thieves who are still around in this forum and have been for a long time know what the problem with “thief” is – contrahery to you – all of us don’t want buffs.
ETA²: Or if we want buffs it’s in case other classes won’t be nerfed or the stuff we once had access to is out of our reach. (CnD unblockable and applying blind).

Jana you really should talk for yourself and not put everyone into your basket of “what is right”.

Cynz.9437:

Jana.6831:

I think it’s a pity that you were around in that thread from start to finish – call yourself a thief expert – at least 2 people tried to explain the point to you multiple times – but you still didn’t get it.
But since you seem to be a nice person you used that very discussion in this thread as an opener to “get the discussion rolling, aight” – have fun, thief expert.

ETA: And btw – the thieves who are still around in this forum and have been for a long time know what the problem with “thief” is – contrahery to you – all of us don’t want buffs.
ETA²: Or if we want buffs it’s in case other classes won’t be nerfed or the stuff we once had access to is out of our reach. (CnD unblockable and applying blind).

Jana you really should talk for yourself and not put everyone into your basket of “what is right”.

So, I’m saying “thieves that have been around for a long time don’t want buffs” you say you don’t want buffs, but I should speak for myself – well ok then

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

Jana.6831:

I think it’s a pity that you were around in that thread from start to finish – call yourself a thief expert – at least 2 people tried to explain the point to you multiple times – but you still didn’t get it.
But since you seem to be a nice person you used that very discussion in this thread as an opener to “get the discussion rolling, aight” – have fun, thief expert.

ETA: And btw – the thieves who are still around in this forum and have been for a long time know what the problem with “thief” is – contrahery to you – all of us don’t want buffs.
ETA²: Or if we want buffs it’s in case other classes won’t be nerfed or the stuff we once had access to is out of our reach. (CnD unblockable and applying blind).

Jana you really should talk for yourself and not put everyone into your basket of “what is right”.

So, I’m saying “thieves that have been around for a long time don’t want buffs” you say you don’t want buffs, but I should speak for myself – well ok then

i just said i think bs needs a buff as well as other staff spells

Cynz.9437:

i just said i think bs needs a buff as well as other staff spells

I can two shot a thief – CnD + BS = down. So yes, lets buff BS.
ETA: Oh, with SS and BS (and mug which I don’t use) the same is for D/P.

Fact is: The June Patch and HoT made this game incredibly cheesy – damage got higher, nearly every class has got access to multiple invunerabilities, the heal got higher. It got worse with HoT.
There’s no real place for thief anymore, especially not the vanilla builds. And that won’t change until a lot of what has been done in June and with HoT will be nerfed, even daredevil. But it’s unlikely that will ever happen – so vanilla thieves have got no place in this game anymore – no matter whether or not you buff their damage output, they still can’t get it through all the sustain other classes bring.

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

i just said i think bs needs a buff as well as other staff spells

I can two shot a thief – CnD + BS = down. So yes, lets buff BS.
ETA: Oh, with SS and BS (and mug which I don’t use) the same is for D/P.

in pvp you won’t, unless thief is afk and runs zerker amy

again, thief would have place in this game (pvp at least), yes even vanilla, if elites and revs/scrappers get nerfed

Cynz.9437:

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

i just said i think bs needs a buff as well as other staff spells

I can two shot a thief – CnD + BS = down. So yes, lets buff BS.
ETA: Oh, with SS and BS (and mug which I don’t use) the same is for D/P.

in pvp you won’t unless thief is afk

Best argument I have heard in a while!

ETA: All classes have got their invulnerabilities and dish out as much (or more) damage than a thief with backstab.
I think we had the discussion about what has to change many times and I’m a bit tired of it. And please don’t forget that we other thieves (D/D, P/D, S/D) would like to play this game again too.
Oh and we scrubby wvw thieves.

Its true though. Thats what we have bandits defense for. there are a lot of thieves trying to decide a fight with the first backstab and its easy to turn the tide on them.

Asrat.2645:

Its true though. Thats what we have bandits defense for. there are a lot of thieves trying to decide a fight with the first backstab and its easy to turn the tide on them.

Yes, with the difference that D mainhand thieves burst is backstab which takes multiple steps – and can’t really be chained, a usual other class can hit that hard multiple times without having to set that damage up (except mesmer) – so you have your multiple invulnerabilities on any other class but only one on thief.

I honestly think the problem is rev.

Rev has similar mobility to thief and more, which is part of why it gets overshadowed imo. The thing is, thief isn’t really in that bad of a spot right now. Yes, some things need reworked, non viable things need to become viable, etc. but a good thief can really make things work and have presence in a game.

I think this should be done:

1. Somehow make rev less of thief 2.0, specialize it more in its own way as to make it still a good class but have more of a specialized role. I don’t like suggesting other classes be changed on our forum but since that is part of the problem I’m doing it.

2. Give thief better boon stealing and sharing properties. Just a little. Bountiful theft should steal full boon quantities, or at least half. Having a few seconds of one stack isn’t that impactful. I think, to also increase build diversity, steal by default should steal 1 boon. This could be balanced by having bountiful theft steal 1 boon and then whenever you steal a boon share it with allies. Something like that, lmk what you think about it.

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

i just said i think bs needs a buff as well as other staff spells

I can two shot a thief – CnD + BS = down. So yes, lets buff BS.
ETA: Oh, with SS and BS (and mug which I don’t use) the same is for D/P.

in pvp you won’t unless thief is afk

Best argument I have heard in a while!

ETA: All classes have got their invulnerabilities and dish out as much (or more) damage than a thief with backstab.
I think we had the discussion about what has to change many times and I’m a bit tired of it. And please don’t forget that we other thieves (D/D, P/D, S/D) would like to play this game again too.
Oh and we scrubby wvw thieves.

It is true though. You can’t argument with what happens in wvw because it is heavily affected by gear, runes, food, world buffs, pve multiplies, zerg passing by etc.

My point was that backstab in pvp atm is not exactly worth using hence why i think it could use a buff (which is opposite of what you suggested saying that all long time thieves want only nerfs).

Nobody stops people from playing s/d, p/d, d/d etc. Really. If you think those builds need improvement then go make own thread for it.

I didn’t know you liked to call yourself scrubby

@alchemyst.2165: i agree, steal should steal more stacks. It would promote smarter use of steal imo.

Cynz.9437:

It is true though. You can’t argument with what happens in wvw because it is heavily affected by gear, runes, food, world buffs, pve multiplies, zerg passing by etc.

You think it does because you have never really played wvw – I duelled my buddy a million times in wvw pvp (also wvw) and I know it’s not that different from wvw.

Cynz.9437:

My point was that backstab in pvp atm is not exactly worth using hence why i think it could use a buff (which is opposite of what you suggested saying that all long time thieves want only nerfs).

The problem with that is that it’s straight past the point. Before June no one was able to 1 (2) shot anyone in this game – now only thieves are able to 1 (2) shot thieves in wvw and pvp – make the damage higher and they’re probably able to truly one shot each other. It doesn’t help one bit against other classes as they’ve got all their invulnerabilities or can just heal up to full.

Cynz.9437:

Nobody stops people from playing s/d, p/d, d/d etc. Really. If you think those builds need improvement then go make own thread for it.

I did, but you D/P players refused to get the point.

Cynz.9437:

I didn’t know you liked to call yourself scrubby

I was quoting you.

ETA: If you still don’t get my point, read the OP of my “Please nerf D/P” – try to see it not from the “BUT I’M A D/P PVP THIEF; THE GREATEST THERE EVER WAS; NO ONE DESERVES ANYTHING BUT ME” point of view and you might understand where I’m coming from.

Asrat.2645:

Its true though. Thats what we have bandits defense for. there are a lot of thieves trying to decide a fight with the first backstab and its easy to turn the tide on them.

Well if you think that 1 block that lasts for 1,5 sec will be a gamechanger for thieves, then you are wrong
yes it’s nice to have a block and the knockdown afterwards, but how many times will you really block a skill that will potentially kill you
e.g. Killshot warri, they pop their signet anyway most of the time, unblockable
- DH 3 unblockable. 2 has casttime that nullifies bandits defense, because the defense unless perfectly times will be over before the shot hits
- ranger 2, unless used with quickness that one block of max 3 arrows is not a big help
IMHO the best use of bandits defense is vs another thief if he stealth engages you and you didn’t see it coming to quickly go “invuln” before the last hits kill you so you can shadow step, just thief vs thief is in my opinion more luck than skill most of the time (when 2 equally skilled thieves fight i mean)
but that’s just my 2 cents
the biggest thing for us thieves is 1 all the bullcrap invulns everywhere, the fact that almost everything does more dmg than our burst with less cost in it, that if not on your toes a random aoe will kill you that wasn’t even meant for you and that thief has become almost useless when played without Daredevil
Thieves natural counter are bruisers, which is logical, the thing now tho, almost every class can take a kitten ton of dmg while dishing out more than us, and then even as aoe or ranged or both xD
If anet doesn’t nerf the power creep, the insane condi dmg imho and especially almost every elite spec (including DrD) the situation for thieves, especially vanilla thieves will not improve, not even mentioning the weaker weaponsets since comparing D/P to every other set is just a waste of time, I love D/D (power not condi) and its playstyle (and come on double incinerator is epic) but i have forced myself into D/P now since you just have so much more utility and surivivability you don’t have to spec for, which is compared to other classes still pretty weak but better than the 0 survivability of almost every other weapon set

I agree all the blocks and invulnerabilities have become rather annoying, probably as annyoing as the evade spam some of our weapon sets offer but + higher health if you actually hit.
But they are not the main problem. At least you can get around those with good timing, stall your enemy a little, and get back to burst and most of them bind your enemy to not attacking too.
What has really started to kitten me of are the heals. The interruptable ones are ok, at least its my own fault if I let them pass, but there is just so much heavy healing out there, people going from 0 to full hp in a matter of seconds, multiple times a fight.
It makes them just shake off a thief burst, and that should not happen.
Thats the main reason why thieves are still +1. I actually play that way myself, even on a thief. A good fight means it lasts long enough to heal for my full hp 2-5 times.
There are still builds out there that can literally ignore our damage and just heal against it and that is not ok outside of a bunker vs bunker scenario.

DHawk.2687:

Asrat.2645:

Its true though. Thats what we have bandits defense for. there are a lot of thieves trying to decide a fight with the first backstab and its easy to turn the tide on them.

Well if you think that 1 block that lasts for 1,5 sec will be a gamechanger for thieves, then you are wrong

I was not referring to the block. I was referring to the 12 sec cd stunbreak. It really makes for a huge difference in thief v thief fights.

Jana.6831:

Cynz.9437:

It is true though. You can’t argument with what happens in wvw because it is heavily affected by gear, runes, food, world buffs, pve multiplies, zerg passing by etc.

You think it does because you have never really played wvw – I duelled my buddy a million times in wvw and I know it’s not that different from wvw.

Cynz.9437:

My point was that backstab in pvp atm is not exactly worth using hence why i think it could use a buff (which is opposite of what you suggested saying that all long time thieves want only nerfs).

The problem with that is that it’s straight past the point. Before June no one was able to 1 (2) shot anyone in this game – now only thieves are able to 1 (2) shot thieves in wvw and pvp – make the damage higher and they’re probably able to truly one shot each other. It doesn’t help one bit against other classes as they’ve got all their invulnerabilities or can just heal up to full.

Cynz.9437:

Nobody stops people from playing s/d, p/d, d/d etc. Really. If you think those builds need improvement then go make own thread for it.

I did, but you D/P players refused to get the point.

Cynz.9437:

I didn’t know you liked to call yourself scrubby

I was quoting you.

ETA: If you still don’t get my point, read the OP of my “Please nerf D/P” – try to see it not from the “BUT I’M A D/P PVP THIEF; THE GREATEST THERE EVER WAS; NO ONE DESERVES ANYTHING BUT ME” point of view and you might understand where I’m coming from.

- assumption (wrong one at it) and generalization as argument – zzzzz

- wrong again, certain builds could 1 shot pre june patch even, it is was generally not worth using (although i would like to add that standard shatter mes could semi-oneshot thieves given right and well timed execution); once again wvw argument, wvw is not balanced, never was and never will be. Also, nothing stops Anet from using different multiplies for pvp and pve.

- no, you didn’t suggest improvement to those builds. You asked to gut decent weapon set because yours favorite weaponset is not performing up to your expectations and wanted every thief in this game be absolutely worthless, being harassed, told to quit game, never taken to raids/pvp team for at least year in hopes that Anet will eventually buff your beloved d/d (when realistically all your suggestions would just lead to everyone being forced into staff).

- you were quoting me? Show me the post where i called you “scrub”.

@cynz: To make it simple: D/P is stronger than every other thief set – part of it because the skills synergize so well – the other reason: all traits in SA are now suited D/P best.
And it does more damage than at least D/D which is silly and shouldn’t be.
As long as thief is balanced around D/P no other weaponset will have a chance. As long as D/P isn’t nerfed (traits being unraveled so other builds can take them again counting as nerfs) no other set will have a chance.
I hope you get it now – and I’m seriously tired of this discussion – I’m not that stupid that I couldn’t have brought my point across in now 100 posts – so please try to either get or just leave me alone with your hostility – thank you.

Asrat.2645:

DHawk.2687:

Asrat.2645:

Its true though. Thats what we have bandits defense for. there are a lot of thieves trying to decide a fight with the first backstab and its easy to turn the tide on them.

Well if you think that 1 block that lasts for 1,5 sec will be a gamechanger for thieves, then you are wrong

I was not referring to the block. I was referring to the 12 sec cd stunbreak. It really makes for a huge difference in thief v thief fights.

the stunbreak doesn’t make a huge difference in thief v thief, since we don’t have that meany stuns anyhow, the only one is basi venom, then yes sword 2 has an immob and a trait does as well, playing DrD makes them useless, and bandits defense doesn’t clear immob so kitten? ^^

Jana.6831:

@cynz: To make it simple: D/P is stronger than every other thief set – part of it because the skills synergize so well – the other reason: all traits in SA are now suited D/P best.
And it does more damage than at least D/D which is silly and shouldn’t be.
As long as thief is balanced around D/P no other weaponset will have a chance. As long as D/P isn’t nerfed (traits being unraveled so other builds can take them again counting as nerfs) no other set will have a chance.
I hope you get it now – and I’m seriously tired of this discussion – I’m not that stupid that I couldn’t have brought my point across in now 100 posts – so please try to either get or just leave me alone with your hostility – thank you.

I agree 100% Jana!

Now you are beeing unfair. I didnt bother to read the entire ‘nerf dp’ threat but from my understanding of jana’s original argument the idea was to bring dp back in line with the other sets, and then rebalance the entire profession in a more useful way, not to nerf a good set and make us worse.
But besides that…that entire weaponset discussion…its pretty useless. I think we all can agree on some things are actually broken and should be revisited, but on the other hand 5/8 weaponsets beeing at least viable is pretty good compared to other classes.
And it is also not really the point of this thread, i doubt the build diversity had any connection to thieves not beeing in pro leagues.

Jana.6831:

@cynz: To make it simple: D/P is stronger than every other thief set – part of it because the skills synergize so well – the other reason: all traits in SA are now suited D/P best.
And it does more damage than at least D/D which is silly and shouldn’t be.
As long as thief is balanced around D/P no other weaponset will have a chance. As long as D/P isn’t nerfed (traits being unraveled so other builds can take them again counting as nerfs) no other set will have a chance.
I hope you get it now – and I’m seriously tired of this discussion – I’m not that stupid that I couldn’t have brought my point across in now 100 posts – so please try to either get or just leave me alone with your hostility – thank you.

- blanket statement, staff works well imo
- ofc SA is suited dp best, dp is built around stealth after all
- dp doing more dmg than d/d is arguable
- i don’t think thief is balanced around dp atm actually, i would say it is DD
- d/p is not holding other weaponsets, it really doesn’t. Thief generally has 2 playstyles: stealth and evades. For example d/p doesn’t stop devs from inproving staff/ s/d. D/P is also all about direct dmg so it doesn’t affect condi builds. If Anet really wanted they could have improved other sets regardless of dp. Maybe you should focus on asking Anet to improve those weaponsets instead of asking Anet to ruin game for other thieves than yourself.

- what hostility are we talking about here? Having different opinion and disagreeing is hardly hostility.

Asrat.2645:

Now you are beeing unfair. I didnt bother to read the entire ‘nerf dp’ threat but from my understanding of jana’s original argument the idea was to bring dp back in line with the other sets, and then rebalance the entire profession in a more useful way, not to nerf a good set and make us worse.
But besides that…that entire weaponset discussion…its pretty useless. I think we all can agree on some things are actually broken and should be revisited, but on the other hand 5/8 weaponsets beeing at least viable is pretty good compared to other classes.
And it is also not really the point of this thread, i doubt the build diversity had any connection to thieves not beeing in pro leagues.

No, her idea was to nerf dp so nobody plays thief so Anet would be forced to buff the class. She forgot that staff still exist and is performing pretty well atm. She also apparently forgot Anet balancing history – they nerfs things to the point of unplayable a lot and often don’t touch it for years. She just wants d/d buffs at costs of other players – no, ty. The amount of griefing i got just for playing thief in season 1 was absurd, i don’t want another season like this because Jana wants d/d to be amazing.

DHawk.2687:

Asrat.2645:

DHawk.2687:

Asrat.2645:

Its true though. Thats what we have bandits defense for. there are a lot of thieves trying to decide a fight with the first backstab and its easy to turn the tide on them.

Well if you think that 1 block that lasts for 1,5 sec will be a gamechanger for thieves, then you are wrong

I was not referring to the block. I was referring to the 12 sec cd stunbreak. It really makes for a huge difference in thief v thief fights.

the stunbreak doesn’t make a huge difference in thief v thief, since we don’t have that meany stuns anyhow, the only one is basi venom, then yes sword 2 has an immob and a trait does as well, playing DrD makes them useless, and bandits defense doesn’t clear immob so kitten? ^^

Well. In the tvt matches im playing, it all comes down to wether the other thief is able to deliver one strong burst or not. Since im always evading everything (playing dd or sd) the only way to ‘get your message across’ is using bv/is stun and quickly deliver a burst. Everythin that does not onehit me, wont kill me either, and therefore that one stun/stunbreak usually decides the entire fight. the kick is also a nice way of getting some free strikes on your wannabe murderer.

Yeah let’s nerf thieves again so the only builds we’ll see are the ridiculous condi – d/d thief builds out there. Withsome occasional s/p added to the mix.

Seriously. Not.

May I remind everyone this isn’t DD v DP round 2.

This is what needs to happen for thief to be meta. I hear a lot about nerfing rev. I agree any class that takes 40% of the spots in PvP is performing too well and needs nerfing. I agree with BS buff due to it not hitting all that hard. BTW I’m only talking like 10% only.

Some good ideas and some people need to let kitten go.

Personally I don’t think thieves themselves have problems against revenants currently (even if revenants overall are not fine right now). I’d like to see more focus on flanking and backstabs, rewarding a thief that manages to stay behind opponent and dis-/re-engaging at the right times.

Maybe a condition removal / transfer on every backstab per a set period of time? Anyways, something that encourages aggressive, mindful playstyle.

Ya know; the trick to invisibility is being where no one is looking at.

As cynz already statet there are two ways to play a thief class: The ‘assassin’ style, going for stealth, strong bursts, and perhaps condi.
And the ‘rogue’ style, based on sustained damage, evades, outplaying the opponent.
The problem with our class is, that at some point, those two got mixed.
The weaponsets dont work into those options, especially dp traing to be a hybrid and get the best of both worlds, same could be said for dd. The traits do neither.
What they really should do is trying to get back to those concepts, and work on both of them seperately and individually.
We would get away form the hybrids/all-in-ones, everybody could play the way they feel comfortable and it would also be way easier to balance both types respectively
And i believe that was the problem for the pro leagues too. Thieves can either be a damagedealer, that doesnt get to deal damage, or a tank without a health pool. So, instead of choosing one of two badly developed options, theyve tried to do both or neither. On a professional team is simply no room for what the profession tries to be, especially with revenants around. There could be however room for that the profession is supposed to be.
Our strenghts on casual level probably did not matter. There is no room for a +1, when your team is not inferior in a fair matchup and i doubt any professional players will fall for a thief’s skipping attempts.

So glad this thread started out like all the others on this forum.

Here is a Topic / Problem . Discuss
Barely relevant squabble ensues.

Start: No thieves on esl.
Why?>
No use to take them into teams
Why?>
Too bad
How comes?>
The class has issues
And what issues would that be?>
Discussion you see here, tho not everything is directly (or even indirectly) related to the original problem, this thread serves it’s purpose by discussing things that are obviously a problem of our class.

DHawk.2687:

Asrat.2645:

DHawk.2687:

Asrat.2645:

Its true though. Thats what we have bandits defense for. there are a lot of thieves trying to decide a fight with the first backstab and its easy to turn the tide on them.

Well if you think that 1 block that lasts for 1,5 sec will be a gamechanger for thieves, then you are wrong

I was not referring to the block. I was referring to the 12 sec cd stunbreak. It really makes for a huge difference in thief v thief fights.

the stunbreak doesn’t make a huge difference in thief v thief, since we don’t have that meany stuns anyhow, the only one is basi venom, then yes sword 2 has an immob and a trait does as well, playing DrD makes them useless, and bandits defense doesn’t clear immob so kitten? ^^

Stunbreak makes for a huge difference in thief 1v1s. It always has unless you have the reaction time of a sloth. The difference between a backstab + auto chain and a half due to basilisk vs a backstab + instant stun break is huge. The latter is recoverable from, but the former gives your opponent enough momentum to pretty much decide the fight.

Bandit’s defense is also a gamechanger in thief 1v1’s. If you don’t think it is then you haven’t tried running it to improve your 1v1 game. The kick can be used to cancel the block and results in a 2s knockdown. Which if it connects when you don’t have a stunbreak will easily decide the 1v1 match. Not to mention the block is a godsend for stealth situations.

Jana.6831:

@cynz: To make it simple: D/P is stronger than every other thief set – part of it because the skills synergize so well – the other reason: all traits in SA are now suited D/P best.
And it does more damage than at least D/D which is silly and shouldn’t be.
As long as thief is balanced around D/P no other weaponset will have a chance. As long as D/P isn’t nerfed (traits being unraveled so other builds can take them again counting as nerfs) no other set will have a chance.
I hope you get it now – and I’m seriously tired of this discussion – I’m not that stupid that I couldn’t have brought my point across in now 100 posts – so please try to either get or just leave me alone with your hostility – thank you.

Honestly I dropped out of that thread due to the massive amount of quoting out of context. It doesn’t take 100 posts to get your point across. But just because you communicated your idea doesn’t mean others agree with it.

Like said this in the other thread but it got ignored just so you or some other folk could take a jab at me. Buff SA all you want. It doesn’t matter if SA + D/P is 200x better than SA + D/D or SA + whatever. As long as DA/Trick/Dare D/P is still better than SA/Trick/Dare D/P. Then D/P won’t run SA. So it doesn’t matter if SA gets buffed.

If this was the other thread I’d get quoted for saying: “It doesn’t matter if SA + D/P is 200x better than SA + D/D or SA + whatever.” And that I’m a dirty D/P thief for feeling that way. Even though that sentence has a totally different meaning when used without the ones following it.

Cynz.9437:

- ofc SA is suited dp best, dp is built around stealth after all

Alright, so P/D and D/D aren’t, right?

Cynz.9437:

- dp doing more dmg than d/d is arguable

It isn’t. It is unjustified as D/P have got a build in port, D/D hasn’t.

Cynz.9437:

- i don’t think thief is balanced around dp atm actually, i would say it is DD

Well, and what are all those DrD thieves running? Right: D/P – not staff.

Cynz.9437:

- d/p is not holding other weaponsets, it really doesn’t.

It really does.

Cynz.9437:

Thief generally has 2 playstyles: stealth and evades. For example d/p doesn’t stop devs from inproving staff/ s/d. D/P is also all about direct dmg so it doesn’t affect condi builds.

That is debateable and we already had the topic in the thread you guys can’t let go. D/P works fine with any trait lines as the set is so well synergized – even before June there have been evade D/P builds. As for P/D – SA is holding them back as well.
Sure anet could put a bit more effort into buffing S/D but as long as there’s thieves around they don’t really have to bother, have they? And as long as D/P remains our strongest set everything is build around – except if anet gets the point I was trying to make with my thread.

Cynz.9437:

If Anet really wanted they could have improved other sets regardless of dp.

Kitten, I’ve said it ten times already, you acknowledged it already, but you still stubbornly insist that D/P isn’t bringing anything down – it does – SA being the crucial point – if the other two sets using that line were to be buffed via the traits D/P would be nerfed – go figure.

Maybe you should focus on asking Anet to improve those weaponsets instead of asking Anet to ruin game for other thieves than yourself.

Unfortunately there’s no other way than to nerf D/P – the one or other way – you guys were free to discuss this with me but you chose not to argue against my points but to become personal.

Cynz.9437:

- what hostility are we talking about here? Having different opinion and disagreeing is hardly hostility.

I’m fine with a different opinion as long as it’s worded properly and has got some points – go play D/D in an pvp environement for a while and tell me what the set needs and how it should be buffed.
Anyway – I think it’s pretty sillly to bring up a forgotten thread just to prove anything – that’s how this thread started and that’s why I have to go through the same kitten again – I should chose to ignore it – you guys just won’t learn =)

Cynz.9437:

No, her idea was to nerf dp so nobody plays thief so Anet would be forced to buff the class.
She forgot that staff still exist and is performing pretty well atm. She also apparently forgot Anet balancing history – they nerfs things to the point of unplayable a lot and often don’t touch it for years. She just wants d/d buffs at costs of other players – no, ty. The amount of griefing i got just for playing thief in season 1 was absurd, i don’t want another season like this because Jana wants d/d to be amazing.

You should reread what I meant.
And btw: I don’t want D/D to be amazing I want back what I once had and what has been thrown under the bus partly because of D/P. I think you want to keep your preferred weaponset as well, don’t you?

Midi.8359:

Honestly I dropped out of that thread due to the massive amount of quoting out of context. It doesn’t take 100 posts to get your point across. But just because you communicated your idea doesn’t mean others agree with it.

No one has to but no one really had any arguments as to why I was wrong – in this thread yet again.

Midi.8359:

Like said this in the other thread but it got ignored just so you or some other folk could take a jab at me. Buff SA all you want. It doesn’t matter if SA + D/P is 200x better than SA + D/D or SA + whatever. As long as DA/Trick/Dare D/P is still better than SA/Trick/Dare D/P. Then D/P won’t run SA. So it doesn’t matter if SA gets buffed.

Ok, so?

Midi.8359:

If this was the other thread I’d get quoted for saying: “It doesn’t matter if SA + D/P is 200x better than SA + D/D or SA + whatever.” And that I’m a dirty D/P thief for feeling that way. Even though that sentence has a totally different meaning when used without the ones following it.

Ah, so you assume that it would be like that so you are mad because of something that you think would have happend – that’s reasonable!

Xeyon.6419:

So glad this thread started out like all the others on this forum.

Here is a Topic / Problem . Discuss
Barely relevant squabble ensues.

True but that was the intend of the OP – they already had a similar thread in pvp – but that wasn’t enough as it seems.

So buff SA to buff D/D without buffing D/P.

Also not mad. Just said that to save myself some headaches (Since very similar quoting out of context happened in the other thread).

Midi.8359:

So buff SA to buff D/D without buffing D/P.

Also not mad. Just said that to save myself some headaches (Since very similar quoting out of context happened in the other thread).

I don’t really get what you want or mean right now.
A buff to D/D via SA would be a nerf to D/P if the merged trait system stays the same.
ETA: Not neccessarily – depends on the buffs.
Still SS does more damage than CnD and still D/P will be the strongest set – has been like that for at least 2 years since I play thief but D/D could still be pulled off, even against D/P which gets harder and harder.

Er I want to make a suggestion that makes D/D more viable. I guess, in particular a suggestion we (and possibly others) can both agree with.

“A buff to D/D via SA would be a nerf to D/P if the merged trait system stays the same.”

This I don’t understand. Not that I disagree with it but I don’t understand. Again from my perspective as long as DA/Trick/Dare D/P > SA/Trick/Dare D/P, you can do anything you want to with SA and it won’t nerf D/P. I guess the SA changes you want for D/D would make SA worse for D/P? If that is the case (and not saying it is), that’d be fine with me as D/P doesn’t really use the traitline. Nvm you edited your post. Still if those SA buffs for D/D made SA worser for D/P I don’t think anyone would mind (and as I said in the marked out part above, if that is the case with those buffs. Not saying it is).

Yea D/P might still be the most dominant set, but I wouldn’t mind seeing D/D thieves be more viable. Heck if SA buffs lead to D/D thieves being top dog I don’t really care either.

I don’t understand why everyone wants a D/P nerf, Thief is kittening hard enough to play as it is. Why does d/p have to be nerfed? why not just buff the stuff that needs some love and make it as relevant as d/p. if you nerf D/P you get another useless weapon set and another weapon set will have to take it’s place probably staff. So imo d/p should stay as it is and the other sets should get a buff or rework.

Because it’s not easy to buff stuff without nerfing D/P and because D/P still would be the strongest, most used set on which thief as a whole would be balanced on.

Travis.3487:

I don’t understand why everyone wants a D/P nerf, Thief is kittening hard enough to play as it is. Why does d/p have to be nerfed? why not just buff the stuff that needs some love and make it as relevant as d/p. if you nerf D/P you get another useless weapon set and another weapon set will have to take it’s place probably staff. So imo d/p should stay as it is and the other sets should get a buff or rework.

Everyone doesn’t just a few who stick to DD.

The problem they don’t realize is DD is in a tough spot due to the other sets attached to it. (DP SD PD) The only skill it truly owns is DB. Normally I would say pump it’s damage up to match DP and PD 3 except we need to be mindful of the evade part. So to get that damage you’ll prolly have to see an increase in initiative requirements.

Buffing OH dagger 4 or 5 is something that prolly won’t happen due to PD SD. Another obstacle to DD is the fact it has the highest single target burst damage for a thief. So even in PvP you can 1 shot just about any class using a Yolo build. Even a marauder variant is going to hit like a truck when timed correctly.

So what I would do is increase the DB damage by 30-40%, increase dancing dagger damage by 20%, and restore CnD damage to the PvE damage in all aspects of the game.

Please let’s get off the DD v DP now

I’m sure if they had to have 5 class, a thief would have replaced one of the revenant for most teams that have a thief player.

In the end, its just about them needing to shave Shiro quite a bit. Nerfing scrapper will also help thief quite a bit.
By itself, thief is fine now. I don’t thinkw e need any buffs.