Guild Wars 2

How would you buff the off hand dagger to make it become viable again? CnD seems to be lacking a range mechanic IMO, this is how I feel when using it. Any thoughts how how to improve this ability?

I’d like to see dancing dagger get a little boost too, any suggestions?

No just no…..

Paulie.6215:

No just no…..

explain why you’re saying no, most would say off hand dagger needs a buff, we all know why d/p is more effective than d/d or s/d, the stealth of course. How should CnD be made viable?

Add a blind when it hits. That’s all it needs.

Paulie.6215:

Add a blind when it hits. That’s all it needs.

You honestly think adding a blind would add build diversity?

Add 2 stacks torment for 5 seconds to dancing dagger per target hit.

Lower CND INI by one. Add two stacks Vulnerability to existing 3. Increase duration of same to 6 seconds. In theory this can allow two CNd.s used back to back to increase damage by 10 percent on the subsequent backstab. This should be a nice bonus when compared to the d/p backstab which is easier to pull off.

Grimreaper.5370:

Paulie.6215:

Add a blind when it hits. That’s all it needs.

You honestly think adding a blind would add build diversity?

It would fix a mistake in trait placement.

And I don’t see why D/P does more damage than D/D – so a damage buff and either blind or unblockable would be nice. I’d take CiS in Master and a damage buff as well, though.

Grimreaper.5370:

Paulie.6215:

Add a blind when it hits. That’s all it needs.

You honestly think adding a blind would add build diversity?

You asked what would make cnd viable. I answered you.

Dancign Daggers just needs first and foremostly a return to its old Damage it had, before it got nerfed to death and it needs faster velocity and a secondary effect that helps thieves against bunkers, like Boon Steals from bouncing off daggers, which makes Dancing Daggers then also a good skill that punishes more bad enemy positioning, when you could steal that way then alot of boons at once from too crowded standing enemies

Adding Torment to it would make this skill way too powerful.
Torment is rather something, that should be added to Death Blossom instead of Bleeding to make Death Blossom a better crowd and movement controling skill that punishes enemies better from moving too much, thus makign them easier targets for you to land your cloak and daggers if they move lesser around due to fearing, that torment could kill them off otherwise too quickly, when you could keep up torment permanently with Death Blossom in combination with the condition spam you get from the daredevil dodge style that causes conditions per dodge.

too many classes also have too good cleanse agaisnt bleedings due to traits that directly remove bleedings, but torment isn’t so well removable through passive traits as like bleeding, therefore that it is directly weaker than bleeding, when the enemy doesn#t move, while beign more powerful than bleeding, when the target moves.

Thief should be a class, like Mesmer which should punish movement the most ..the Mesmer even has 2 good conditions for that.. Confusion and Torment with that you can pretty much shut down your enemies very effectivelsy, when you can keep up both at high stacks constantly on your enemy, they die like flies, unless you play currently a diamond ksin ele >.> but thankfully this crap gets nerfed finally

But the thief needs in first sight alot more drastical improvements, than just making only offhand Dagger Skills better..

Before that happens, that have improving, merging and adding new traits a much higher priority as like also creatign real new build diversity by adding Offhand Swords baseline with two new skills to the Core Thief.

The adding of these two new skills alone would create quite some more needed build sdiversity, as it would mean automaticalylthat the thief would need to receive also some new Weapon Skill Slot 3 Skilsl based on the weapon combinations with the offhand Sword.

Sword/Sword
Dagger/Sword
Pistol/Sword

Would mean 3 new Slot 3 Skills would need to be added, which are 3 skills that could further add somethign to thief build diversity, when it would be 3 good universal useful skills that provide good enough skill synergy with the already existign skills and thiose of other classes to provide this way more build diversity.

I dont see offhand sword ever becoming a thing for an Elite Specialization, its somethign for the same, that should have been from begin on baseline for thieves.
Somewone who can dual wield 2 daggers, should also be able to dual wield swords, especialyl when he/she can wield already one with the main hand …
ES also should be better used for adding weapons, that are either completely new, or somethign that we can’t use yet but already exists.
So offhand sword doesn’t fit into the scheme here. Its made for being added baseline.

Also, when a warrior in heavy armors is able to dual wield swords, then especially a fast and nimble thief should be able to do so too, and that alot more swift and elegantly, than a slow warrior in his armor …

More on cloak and dagger.

I had once been of the opinion that adding blind was the fix needed but after reflection it became apparent this would make the set too close to D/P.

D/p relies on a blind then a stealth and backstab. The “feel” would not be any different when one adds a blind to CnD between the two sets. Offhand dagger becomes too much like off hand pistol..

So there are alternatves that would make the CnD style feel different in d/d builds.

As suggested add more vulnerability stacks. This would make the Backstab always hit harder.

There are alternatives though that can help differentiate the sets.

Add 2 seconds slow to a CND this acting to inibit an enemies reactions.

Add 3 seconds superspeed to a CnD this allowing rapid repositioning while stealthed.

Add Quickness of 2 seconds to CnD wherein the thief now can choose to carefully reposition to get to the back or side for the backstab or come out of hiding immediately and take advantage of the quickness.

As mentioned before, add blind on successful CnD hit would fix it, one thing OH dagger lacks greatly is reward given its harder to use skills and set ups.

As for dancing dagger, I’d say transfer 1 condition to the first foe hit, remove cripple and up projectile speed a little. There should be no reason to dump all your initiative into this skill but the built in condition removal would greatly help d/d and even add to p/d’s condition capacity which at this point in time, is a very outdated set. Remove cripple because heart seeker is a far better gap closer and the cripple is next to negligible to begin with.

babazhook.6805:

More on cloak and dagger.

I had once been of the opinion that adding blind was the fix needed but after reflection it became apparent this would make the set too close to D/P.

D/p relies on a blind then a stealth and backstab. The “feel” would not be any different when one adds a blind to CnD between the two sets. Offhand dagger becomes too much like off hand pistol..

So there are alternatves that would make the CnD style feel different in d/d builds.

As suggested add more vulnerability stacks. This would make the Backstab always hit harder.

There are alternatives though that can help differentiate the sets.

Add 2 seconds slow to a CND this acting to inibit an enemies reactions.

Add 3 seconds superspeed to a CnD this allowing rapid repositioning while stealthed.

Add Quickness of 2 seconds to CnD wherein the thief now can choose to carefully reposition to get to the back or side for the backstab or come out of hiding immediately and take advantage of the quickness.

Wut??

Blind on CnD is simply needed because SReJ and CiS were put in the same tier and no it wouldn’t be too close to d/p. It’s freeing space in trait choices it literally just needs that blind or these two traits not in the same tier. If “he who knows his name” doesn’t get that by now I fear nerfs will come as soon as the patch hits.

Sagat.3285:

babazhook.6805:

More on cloak and dagger.

I had once been of the opinion that adding blind was the fix needed but after reflection it became apparent this would make the set too close to D/P.

D/p relies on a blind then a stealth and backstab. The “feel” would not be any different when one adds a blind to CnD between the two sets. Offhand dagger becomes too much like off hand pistol..

So there are alternatves that would make the CnD style feel different in d/d builds.

As suggested add more vulnerability stacks. This would make the Backstab always hit harder.

There are alternatives though that can help differentiate the sets.

Add 2 seconds slow to a CND this acting to inibit an enemies reactions.

Add 3 seconds superspeed to a CnD this allowing rapid repositioning while stealthed.

Add Quickness of 2 seconds to CnD wherein the thief now can choose to carefully reposition to get to the back or side for the backstab or come out of hiding immediately and take advantage of the quickness.

Wut??

Blind on CnD is simply needed because SReJ and CiS were put in the same tier and no it wouldn’t be too close to d/p. It’s freeing space in trait choices it literally just needs that blind or these two traits not in the same tier. If “he who knows his name” doesn’t get that by now I fear nerfs will come as soon as the patch hits.

No it not absolutely needed. Yes it would be too close to D/p in style of gameplay. # 5 pistol giving blind and number 5 dagger giving blind is different how?

Stealth blind backstab YAWN same thing over and over. If you want to stealth blind and backstab why pick one set over the other? Surely there something more creative that can be done then rely on blind all the time. Make d/p the safer set with its blind and make d/d have the potential to do MUCH more damage with that backstab.

If a person wants to get a blind on stealth with off hand dagger as well they can trait CIS. THAT is a choice. Not having to do so thus allowing SR is not a choice , it a gimmee.

babazhook.6805:

No it not absolutely needed. Yes it would be too close to D/p in style of gameplay.

Stealth blind backstab YAWN same thing over and over. If you want to stealth blind and backstab why pick one set over the other?

Because it’s a completely different playstyle. And to be honest D #5 needs blind more than D/P #3 – so lets take it from D/P then if D/D isn’t allowed to have it.

babazhook.6805:

Sagat.3285:

babazhook.6805:

More on cloak and dagger.

I had once been of the opinion that adding blind was the fix needed but after reflection it became apparent this would make the set too close to D/P.

D/p relies on a blind then a stealth and backstab. The “feel” would not be any different when one adds a blind to CnD between the two sets. Offhand dagger becomes too much like off hand pistol..

So there are alternatves that would make the CnD style feel different in d/d builds.

As suggested add more vulnerability stacks. This would make the Backstab always hit harder.

There are alternatives though that can help differentiate the sets.

Add 2 seconds slow to a CND this acting to inibit an enemies reactions.

Add 3 seconds superspeed to a CnD this allowing rapid repositioning while stealthed.

Add Quickness of 2 seconds to CnD wherein the thief now can choose to carefully reposition to get to the back or side for the backstab or come out of hiding immediately and take advantage of the quickness.

Wut??

Blind on CnD is simply needed because SReJ and CiS were put in the same tier and no it wouldn’t be too close to d/p. It’s freeing space in trait choices it literally just needs that blind or these two traits not in the same tier. If “he who knows his name” doesn’t get that by now I fear nerfs will come as soon as the patch hits.

No it not absolutely needed. Yes it would be too close to D/p in style of gameplay.

Stealth blind backstab YAWN same thing over and over. If you want to stealth blind and backstab why pick one set over the other? Surely there something more creative that can be done then rely on blind all the time.

You don’t get it do you? That style was present already they just nerfed it with OH dagger to promote less diversity. You misunderstood the initiative system if you expect a change of style, it purely depends on the situation. I’ll take that style instead of buffing the AA of our most used weapon so I can press 1 more.

Jana.6831:

babazhook.6805:

No it not absolutely needed. Yes it would be too close to D/p in style of gameplay.

Stealth blind backstab YAWN same thing over and over. If you want to stealth blind and backstab why pick one set over the other?

Because it’s a completely different playstyle. And to be honest D #5 needs blind more than D/P #3 – so lets take it from D/P then if D/D isn’t allowed to have it.

It still blind stealth and backstab. #1 and #2 of d/d and d/p are already the same. Making the #5 the same in FUNCTION (blind stealth backstab) does not make the sets further apart. I do not see that as imaginative.

I would prefer to see the d/d set have a significant advantage in the damage it inflicts on doing a backstab given it so much harder to set up. The reward would be MORE damage and not just Blind which d/p already has.

Now there the damage component of of the CND that can be pointed to as to why it advantageous to use but given the number of CNds that fail due to blocks dodges timing when compared to the means by which the d/p set can stealth I do not think it enough. I do not see this disadvantage made up for by adding a blind to CnD.

So, why don’t we all play Chronobunker then?
I mean the base of this thread is: Give sustain to X/D thieves (which has been taken away from us) to make us viable again ( = build diversity) and you’re arguing we don’t need build diversity?

ETA: Blind is really important for D/D as you’re diving right into the AoE of the enemy – D/P can chose whatever traits they like instead of it (hidden thief f.e. which a D/D can’t really take/it would be useless) – we have to take SE (aoe condi), CiS (blind to not be one shotted) and SRej (aoe).

I really don’t get why everybody seems to think that D/P is the way to go if one wants to play dagger mainhand – I hate D/P it’s cheesy and it’s clunky – it’s not the way I want to play thief.

ETA²: If you don’t think these 2 are different playstyles then go D/D for a while. Have fun.

babazhook.6805:

Jana.6831:

babazhook.6805:

No it not absolutely needed. Yes it would be too close to D/p in style of gameplay.

Stealth blind backstab YAWN same thing over and over. If you want to stealth blind and backstab why pick one set over the other?

Because it’s a completely different playstyle. And to be honest D #5 needs blind more than D/P #3 – so lets take it from D/P then if D/D isn’t allowed to have it.

It still blind stealth and backstab. #1 and #2 of d/d and d/p are already the same. Making the #5 the same in FUNCTION (blind stealth backstab) does not make the sets further apart. I do not see that as imaginative.

I would prefer to see the d/d set have a significant advantage in the damage it inflicts on doing a backstab given it so much harder to set up. The reward would be MORE damage and not just Blind which d/p already has.

Now there the damage component of of the CND that can be pointed to as to why it advantageous to use but given the number of CNds that fail due to blocks dodges timing when compared to the means by which the d/p set can stealth I do not think it enough. I do not see this disadvantage made up for by adding a blind to CnD.

Damage is not the issue it was always utility vs d/p, sustain became a problem when CiS was put in the same tier as SReJ. If Death Blossom and Dancing weren’t lacking in the movement/utility department the set would be fine. Adding blind to CnD is not fixing the set it’s fixing a mistake in what made the set work.

Sagat.3285:

babazhook.6805:

Sagat.3285:

babazhook.6805:

More on cloak and dagger.

I had once been of the opinion that adding blind was the fix needed but after reflection it became apparent this would make the set too close to D/P.

D/p relies on a blind then a stealth and backstab. The “feel” would not be any different when one adds a blind to CnD between the two sets. Offhand dagger becomes too much like off hand pistol..

So there are alternatves that would make the CnD style feel different in d/d builds.

As suggested add more vulnerability stacks. This would make the Backstab always hit harder.

There are alternatives though that can help differentiate the sets.

Add 2 seconds slow to a CND this acting to inibit an enemies reactions.

Add 3 seconds superspeed to a CnD this allowing rapid repositioning while stealthed.

Add Quickness of 2 seconds to CnD wherein the thief now can choose to carefully reposition to get to the back or side for the backstab or come out of hiding immediately and take advantage of the quickness.

Wut??

Blind on CnD is simply needed because SReJ and CiS were put in the same tier and no it wouldn’t be too close to d/p. It’s freeing space in trait choices it literally just needs that blind or these two traits not in the same tier. If “he who knows his name” doesn’t get that by now I fear nerfs will come as soon as the patch hits.

No it not absolutely needed. Yes it would be too close to D/p in style of gameplay.

Stealth blind backstab YAWN same thing over and over. If you want to stealth blind and backstab why pick one set over the other? Surely there something more creative that can be done then rely on blind all the time.

You don’t get it do you? That style was present already they just nerfed it with OH dagger to promote less diversity. You misunderstood the initiative system if you expect a change of style, it purely depends on the situation. I’ll take that style instead of buffing the AA of our most used weapon so I can press 1 more.

No i do not think Cnd was broken as much by the shift in CIS as it was by all the added blocks, dodges AOES at my feet and invulnerabilities added to the game in that patch. The CnD is much more difficult to pull off and I do not think this due to lack of blind.

The other more significant change was the loss of 2 ini on gaining stealth. Given how hard it is to pull a CnD off in relative terms the INI costs should have been adjusted accordingly or it made more rewarding when it accomplished. Again this is why I think pulling them off should result in more damage. Adding a blind still does not give more reason to pick it over d/p.

Sagat.3285:

babazhook.6805:

Jana.6831:

babazhook.6805:

No it not absolutely needed. Yes it would be too close to D/p in style of gameplay.

Stealth blind backstab YAWN same thing over and over. If you want to stealth blind and backstab why pick one set over the other?

Because it’s a completely different playstyle. And to be honest D #5 needs blind more than D/P #3 – so lets take it from D/P then if D/D isn’t allowed to have it.

It still blind stealth and backstab. #1 and #2 of d/d and d/p are already the same. Making the #5 the same in FUNCTION (blind stealth backstab) does not make the sets further apart. I do not see that as imaginative.

I would prefer to see the d/d set have a significant advantage in the damage it inflicts on doing a backstab given it so much harder to set up. The reward would be MORE damage and not just Blind which d/p already has.

Now there the damage component of of the CND that can be pointed to as to why it advantageous to use but given the number of CNds that fail due to blocks dodges timing when compared to the means by which the d/p set can stealth I do not think it enough. I do not see this disadvantage made up for by adding a blind to CnD.

Damage is not the issue it was always utility vs d/p, sustain became a problem when CiS was put in the same tier as SReJ. If Death Blossom and Dancing weren’t lacking in the movement/utility department the set would be fine. Adding blind to CnD is not fixing the set it’s fixing a mistake in what made the set work.

But as you know CnD never had blind on stealth. The proper fix for it remains in the SA traitline and not in making D off hand more like P off hand.

All you are arguing for is homoginizing the two weaponsets to make them more alike. By all means switch up the traits and drop a blind on stealth back down to master. THAT is where the style was broken and that is where it should be addressed.

One problem I have with the SA line is outside a few variants (Venomshare builds) those that take that traitline tend to take the exact same traits. SE as example is nearly always taken. I really do not want to see Shadows Rejuv become another SE.

babazhook.6805:

Sagat.3285:

babazhook.6805:

Jana.6831:

babazhook.6805:

No it not absolutely needed. Yes it would be too close to D/p in style of gameplay.

Stealth blind backstab YAWN same thing over and over. If you want to stealth blind and backstab why pick one set over the other?

Because it’s a completely different playstyle. And to be honest D #5 needs blind more than D/P #3 – so lets take it from D/P then if D/D isn’t allowed to have it.

It still blind stealth and backstab. #1 and #2 of d/d and d/p are already the same. Making the #5 the same in FUNCTION (blind stealth backstab) does not make the sets further apart. I do not see that as imaginative.

I would prefer to see the d/d set have a significant advantage in the damage it inflicts on doing a backstab given it so much harder to set up. The reward would be MORE damage and not just Blind which d/p already has.

Now there the damage component of of the CND that can be pointed to as to why it advantageous to use but given the number of CNds that fail due to blocks dodges timing when compared to the means by which the d/p set can stealth I do not think it enough. I do not see this disadvantage made up for by adding a blind to CnD.

Damage is not the issue it was always utility vs d/p, sustain became a problem when CiS was put in the same tier as SReJ. If Death Blossom and Dancing weren’t lacking in the movement/utility department the set would be fine. Adding blind to CnD is not fixing the set it’s fixing a mistake in what made the set work.

But as you know CnD never had blind on stealth. The proper fix for it remains in the SA traitline and not in making D off hand more like P offhand.

All you are arguing for is homoginizing the two weaponsets to make them more alike. By all means switch up the traits and drop a blind on stealth back down to master. THAT is where the style was broken and that is where it should be addressed.

No that would just promotes less trait choices and adaptability it would just be a linear path just because you have OH dagger. Making it baseline creates a bit of freedom and a new trait while not powercreep it since only the stealth from CnD would blind and not all like with CiS.

I’m answering you both:

@ Sagat: Damage is an issue: A usual D/P combo is:

SS, steal, BS – that’s more damage than Steal, CnD, BS – why? And that is only the initial strike – we don’t one shot people anymore – a D/P thief has it by far easier to get in and out of the range and to stealth afterwards – a D/D (or and X/D) thief has it much harder.

@ baba: If you can’t land your CnD you can’t stealth, you can’t blind (if CiS is traited) = you’re bait. But an autoattack isn’t that hard to land in 130 range, so CiS prevented X/D thieves (S/D = ports, P/D = dire – so these two could go without it before june) from being one shotted by the aoe. Initative has never been much of a problem to D/D actually. If you miss two of your CnD you’re toast anyway – doesn’t matter how much initative you’ve got left).
And it doesn’t matter whether or not another set already has got blinding powder – as far as I know there’s stuff all classes have access to, no matter their build, like Guards aegis, f.e. and blind has been thief’s aegis if they didn’t rely on ports – amd again: D/D and P/D sacrificed one of their traits to get the utility D/P gets “for free”.

Jana.6831:

I’m answering you both:

@ Sagat: Damage is an issue: A usual D/P combo is:

SS, steal, BS – that’s more damage than Steal, CnD, BS – why? And that is only the initial strike – we don’t one shot people anymore – a D/P thief has it by far easier to get in and out of the range and to stealth afterwards – a D/D (or and X/D) thief has it much harder.

@ baba: If you can’t land your CnD you can’t stealth, you can’t blind (if CiS is traited) = you’re bait. But an autoattack isn’t that hard to land in 130 range, so CiS prevented X/D thieves (S/D = ports, P/D = dire – so these two could go without it before june) from being one shotted by the aoe. Initative has never been much of a problem to D/D actually. If you miss two of your CnD you’re toast anyway – doesn’t matter how much initative you’ve got left).
And it doesn’t matter whether or not another set already has got blinding powder – as far as I know there’s stuff all classes have access to, no matter their build, like Guards aegis, f.e. and blind has been thief’s aegis if they didn’t rely on ports – amd again: D/D and P/D sacrificed one of their traits to get the utility D/P gets “for free”.

let me put it this way jana. In a current build I trait CIS. I assure you this added blind does not save me from One shots from AOE. Nor would having that AND shadows rejuv. The issue with d/d is not that lack of blind in my opinion. It all of the other changes made since that patch that make close up fighting so hard.

Blind does not prevent a whole lot of the AOE damage we now see in the game kitten much of it done at range or via traps. I never saw these used to the same degree way back when.

As you stated you can not blind unless you get a CnD off. It getting that CnD off that is so much harder and that is much more difficult than getting stealth off the d/p set where one creates a smoke field that persists and pulses blind. Try to CnD off a DH as he stands in his traps. Blind will not stop the damage.

I do not think adding blind to Cnd (a vastly inferior blind to smoke field) is the solution here. Consequently for that sustain, I think we have to look at SA and see what happens In Acro and i think that CnD pulled off should get its payback in some other fashion over the d/p style.

babazhook.6805:

let me put it this way jana. In a current build I trait CIS. I assure you this added blind does not save me from One shots from AOE. Nor would having that AND shadows rejuv. The issue with d/d is not that lack of blind in my opinion. It all of the other changes made since that patch that make close up fighting so hard.

Blind does not prevent a whole lot of the AOE damage we now see in the game kitten much of it done at range or via traps. I never saw these used to the same degree way back when.

As you stated you can not blind unless you get a CnD off. It getting that CnD off that is so much harder and that is much more difficult than getting stealth off the d/p set where one creates a smoke field that persists and pulses blind. Try to CnD off a DH as he stands in his traps. Blind will not stop the damage.

I do not think adding blind to Cnd (a vastly inferior blind to smoke field) is the solution here. Consequently for that sustain, I think we have to look at SA and see what happens In Acro and i think that CnD pulled off should get its payback in some other fashion over the d/p style.

Yes, the game and thief is broken – no reason to say “well we can’t survive anyway, so we don’t need CiS and SRej”.
– I’m sorry, but I don’t get your point.
A balance patch is about to be implemented and with that a lot of nerfs to other classes are going to happen – also we get unblockable BV which might save CnD – which then could use CiS/blind.

BTW I think we all want the same thing here. D/D power was the first set I played when I got here and it was always a favorite. I do want to see it work. We are bound to have differences of opinion as to how to do that.

THAT said when reflecting back on what once was we have to recognize how many changes have happened in the game since that time. What might have worked back then will not work now.

Jana.6831:

babazhook.6805:

let me put it this way jana. In a current build I trait CIS. I assure you this added blind does not save me from One shots from AOE. Nor would having that AND shadows rejuv. The issue with d/d is not that lack of blind in my opinion. It all of the other changes made since that patch that make close up fighting so hard.

Blind does not prevent a whole lot of the AOE damage we now see in the game kitten much of it done at range or via traps. I never saw these used to the same degree way back when.

As you stated you can not blind unless you get a CnD off. It getting that CnD off that is so much harder and that is much more difficult than getting stealth off the d/p set where one creates a smoke field that persists and pulses blind. Try to CnD off a DH as he stands in his traps. Blind will not stop the damage.

I do not think adding blind to Cnd (a vastly inferior blind to smoke field) is the solution here. Consequently for that sustain, I think we have to look at SA and see what happens In Acro and i think that CnD pulled off should get its payback in some other fashion over the d/p style.

Yes, the game and thief is broken – no reason to say “well we can’t survive anyway, so we don’t need CiS and SRej”.
– I’m sorry, but I don’t get your point.
A balance patch is about to be implemented and with that a lot of nerfs to other classes are going to happen – also we get unblockable BV which might save CnD – which then could use CiS/blind.

Can you please pont out where I said “well we can’t survive anyway, so we don’t need CiS and SRej”. ?

I am saying there has to be a reason to take d/d over d/p. Adding blind to Cnd does not do that because d/p already has blind and a superior version of the same. (in fact shadow shot also has blind which is uber easy to pull off is unblockable and has a gap closer. d/d can not compete with that)

All of these other announced changes such as unblockable BV attacks, lessening the damage of other classes , changes to acro and the like will help d/p just as much as they help d/d.

As such I am saying d/d which can only really be fixed compared to d/p with the off hand skills , needs something other then a lesser version of blind in order to make it preferable as a weaponset.

The simplest way of putting it this.

If we discount the Condition weapon set of DD using DB.

What skills inherent in the d/d weapon set (of which we have THREE that are different) would make me want to pick it over D/P even if blind added to CnD?

babazhook.6805:

Can you please pont out where I said “well we can’t survive anyway, so we don’t need CiS and SRej”. ?

babazhook.6805:

let me put it this way jana. In a current build I trait CIS. I assure you this added blind does not save me from One shots from AOE. Nor would having that AND shadows rejuv.

The rest I already have pointed out – we would circle if I’d answer it again.

Jana.6831:

babazhook.6805:

Can you please pont out where I said “well we can’t survive anyway, so we don’t need CiS and SRej”. ?

babazhook.6805:

let me put it this way jana. In a current build I trait CIS. I assure you this added blind does not save me from One shots from AOE. Nor would having that AND shadows rejuv.

The rest I already have pointed out – we would circle if I’d answer it again.

Excuse me but stating that having BLIND in my build via CIS does not save me from AOE is not the same as saying I might as well not take it. I do not take it to save me from AOE because it can rarely do that. I take it for the stealth on falling as an escape and for single target blind when I use my steal at range with a staff. This works better then shadow rejuv as a tool in my staff build.

The fall damage mitigation coupled with instant stealth also allows me to immediately hook strike people that follow me over said cliff/wall in pursuit setting them up for a followup attack.

My staff build relies on evades for the bulk of its damage mitigation. Stealth is for condition cleanse so I can take PI and use hook strike for knockdowns. To deal with the AOE i use unhindered to dash out of it rather then rely on shadows rejuv and stand in it.

Did you just go offtopic? You do realize that CiS is something different than the falling damage trait and that they’re now merged, right? This thread isn’t about falling damage but blind on stealth (inaccessible for offhand dagger thieves if they also want SRej) – so basically about the original trait.
Blind does save you from AoE as well – it’s not a full block against all kinds of aoe, granted, but better than nothing.
Have fun – but maybe: try to get the point and don’t just advise people to use different sets. I really could play the most faceroll class and build if I wanted easy wins – but I want back what I once had – and I bet before my time D/D did a lot more damage than D/P but was nerfed to the point where D/P now is better in every way.

Jana.6831:

Did you just go offtopic? You do realize that CiS is something different than the falling damage trait and that they’re now merged, right? This thread isn’t about falling damage but blind on stealth (inaccessible for offhand dagger thieves if they also want SRej) – so basically about the original trait.
Blind does save you from AoE as well – it’s not a full block against all kinds of aoe, granted, but better than nothing.
Have fun – but maybe: try to get the point and don’t just advise people to use different sets. I really could play the most faceroll class and build if I wanted easy wins – but I want back what I once had – and I bet before my time D/D did a lot more damage than D/P but was nerfed to the point where D/P now is better in every way.

No i did not go off topic. I understand what traits do. I used the example of the current CIS because it DOES have blind on stealth and does not save me from AOE. Nor would shadows Rejuv. Nor would both of them together. There is too much AOE and too much at range.

These are your words not mine..

>>Yes, the game and thief is broken – no reason to say “well we can’t survive anyway, so we don’t need CiS and SRej”.

I made no such statement and than gave the reason I take CIS in my build. Do not ascribe false statements to me and then get upset when I correct your error.

Now you can go on believing that Anet will go back to the days of your d/d builds if that your wish but it will not happen. You can go on believing that in order to make d/d a valid choice over d/p an inferior version of a blind is what is needed on CnD , that your choice.

I am suggesting things to give it specific advantages over d/p. An inferior and harder to pull off blind is not an advantage.

Things like “10 stacks of Vulnerability” is because it something d/p does NOT have.

Just make CnD stealth with out the need to hit. It’s basically how oh pistol works

Grimreaper.5370:

Just make CnD stealth with out the need to hit. It’s basically how oh pistol works

So exactly how would this work?

let us say there no target nearby to stealth off. You use CND. Do you get stealth but not do any damage from the CnD portion?

Now there is a target nearby and you try and CnD . If damage inflicted or not from the CND component do you still stealth?

It might work but is this enough to get people taking d/d over d/p with the inherent advantages of the rest of d/p? specifically #3 and #4 being much better in a power set and given the fact #1 and #2 are exactly the same?

I should add that d/p began replacing d/d before CIS removed as a major trait and made into a GM trait. It defies common sense to suggest that getting a blind on the CnD skill so that the d/d thief can also take shadows rejuv will suddenly fix the d/d issues.

Let us get REAL fixes and real reasons to choose d/d power over d/p. If the blind on stealth is what people think is needed then the SA line traits are the place to do that and the off hand weapon called dagger should be made unique from off hand pistol in its utility. THAT is diversity.

(I would suggest as example SE become a minor trait, CIS replace SE in its current spot and the exisiting GM with falling trait be revamped As example the old fleet shadow bundled with the falling trait. drop concealed defeat and put merciful ambush in its place along with the lower deception skill cooldown. This adds way more in the way of diversity then everyone taking SE and Shadows rejuv.)

The other is just painting a carrot green and calling it zucchini.

What the devs should look into are what traits were considered mandatory to get the off-hand dagger to work. Which trait was that? Blind on stealth. Without that trait it was nearly useless because the thief will just get blown up by the next AoE attack or a channel that started right before he entered stealth.

As for DD I’d say increase its damage a little and lower the initiative cost. It is still a good chase tool and this would actually justify throwing initiative into it.

Those two fixes and D/D would see play again.

It might not be enough to get people to take d/d but it would probably be enough to make s/d viable as d/p. Ots simple you either miss cnd but stealth or land it and stealth. Basically how black powder works.

From my thread

Kicker.8203:

• Death Blossom: evade is now 1/2 and it’s a spamm skill for condi builds. It has to scale more with power. To prevent spamming it and add more play, it should switch -if any of the attacks hit- into a second skill(I don’t insist on a certain skill but to give you an idea:)
  Marked for Death: Death Blossom marks the foe first hit similarly to how Shadow Trap does.
  —Marked for Death(3 initiative): You can teleport to and knockdown your foe as soon as he is at least 900 range away from you. (if you can’t catch up you can just run in the other direction, fun counterplay)
  If the teleport is not used in the following 6 seconds or so, the skill would reset back to Death Blossom.
  The point is adding a flipping skill to prevent evade spamming without adding CD.
  Possible variants:
  Same, but you teleport automatically upon reaching 900 range.
  Activating it stealths you, teleports behind/to your foe also inflicting vulnerability. (counterplay: vulnerability lets them know that you are coming)
  Alternatively it could just teleport to your foe and hit them similarly to Shadow Shot’s damage part. (maybe not both stealth and teleport because then all weapon sets have everything if staff gets it too)
  —Why teleport? D/D has no mobility.
• Cloak and Dagger: this skill is very difficult to hit opposed to the smoke field+heartseeker combo. Using it puts you at risk as a thief so it should either reward a successful hit with a bit longer stealth duration or blind application.
  bug: Steal with Mug+ CnD often causes self-reveal.(teleport+CnD happens before mug damage)

It think it would be fine for cnd to tp you behind the enemy as long as the range was very short, like 450 max.

I would be satisfied by just adding blind on cnd.

seriously miss the old d/d with SA trait SE , CIS , Shadow rejuv trait

Cloack and Dagger:
Unnerf the damage from the pvp pve merge to the old pve level
Increase initative cost to 7 but restore 2 initative on successful hit
Increase stealth duration to 4s from 3s
Blind nearby foes on cast (this will remove aegis before the hit connects)
Increased range to 200 from 130

This will make D/D a strong offensive set with high risk/reward, missing CnD might end up being fatal but hitting it becomes a bit easier.

No need to make it 7 ini, bp is already far superior.

make CnD unbloc, it all what we need.

Paulie.6215:

Grimreaper.5370:

Paulie.6215:

Add a blind when it hits. That’s all it needs.

You honestly think adding a blind would add build diversity?

You asked what would make cnd viable. I answered you.

Firs you need to runner it’s damage. Then make it apply blind. Then probably change death blossom around some for more mobility and evade duration. Maybe add a damage 10% mod for 5s if you land a CnD. Make dancing dagger immobilize.