Guild Wars 2

Is close to being matched by another class or negated to a point of who cares what will keep the thief in PvP? Serious discussion b/c from the way things are going thieves are really falling fast.

Yes currently with SB 5 and what not we are fast point to point. We can jump a fight and make it a nice +1 (though I must say with the sturdiness of classes now its more like +0.75). Problem is I see a trend where thieves’ mobility isn’t quite the must have. Yes I know right now thieves still have a place, but HoT is going to change A LOT.

I dunno if Dash + SB5 will be enough in light of yet another power creep where thieves’ creep just looks lack luster.

discuss

T raw.4658:

…
+1 (though I must say with the sturdiness of classes now its more like +0.75).
…

Heh, I’m not the only one that thinks that. Though, mine is a bit more logical, math wise.

See a +1 works for when there’s a 1v1 or a 2v2 or a 3v3, helps unbalance, meaning (T being thief)

1+T vs 1 —> 1+T> 1

Now, if it’s a 1v2 or a 2v3, the thief shouldn’t engage (from what I gather), since it will not contribute to the fight as much as another class…. So

1+T vs 2 —> 1+T < 2.

This implies that
0 < T < 1.

If I had to guess it, I would say T=0.5, but since we can’t have a fraction of a player, people say +1.

Anyways… Who knows what will happen. There are people out there that believe that the thief is just fine, it’s just other’s don’t know how to use it properly/haven’t mastered it. So to them, even if the mobility isn’t as good as it used to be, I think they will not notice…

Meta wise, yeah thief will probably fall from being in meta, given the niche of "+1"’ing and decapping (due to mobility). That is since realistically any class can “+1” (and arguably better), only thing that keeps the thief where it is is the mobility, once that’s gone or another class has same or better. Why would you even think of a thief?

Personally, I’m not considering the thief as a main for sPvP or WvW. HoT PvE, maybe (still debating).

In my opinion Shrio/Glint Heralds will be favored over Thieves/Daredevils.

There’s an amusing dynamic to me. For thieves to be mobile, they must expend their resources leaving them low on options during the initial engage, whereas a Herald will just Legend swap and be back up to normal resource levels.

That said thief does have better decap potential, because its mobility is free roaming instead of targeted. However, if the game is in a state where it’s more favorable to be on the offensive that aspect of thief isn’t valuable since decaping empty nodes takes you out of fights.

Thief/Daredevil seems to be at risk of being pushed out of the meta, but we’ll see.

The better question: Why bring a Thief, given other options?
What does a Thief bring to the team, that another profession cannot…?

Sure, go +1 all you want, decap, the usual. But lets say you go decap, and some boon-ranger comes along, or condi necro/mez/engi/warr/x*#!@#$%. Run away saying “sorry to bother you, just keeping the spot warm” because they can push you off with laughable ease. Stay? Likely die and come back 15s later, so you can recap your home point… now thats mobility!

IMO, if Thief is brought on your team, it’s for posterity, nostalgia, or pitty and nothing more.

Edit

There’s an amusing dynamic to me. For thieves to be mobile, they must expend their resources leaving them low on options during the initial engage, whereas a Herald will just Legend swap and be back up to normal resource levels.

^ This

Just gonna point out that in order to phase traverse the revenant needs to be in shiro not glint and more importantly needs a target.

A thief will still has the edge in slipping away in a fight and getting a decap as their extreme mobility isn’t dependant on anything but ini/cool down. I think you’re more likely to see revenant replacing an ele or warrior than a thief because they can catch the thief if they can target it. We’ll find out soon enough though.

I was thinking lately: D/D thief is kitten right now.
What would improve my situation?
First, being able to take CiS, SE and SRej. Second; SE removes 2 conditions at once one CC, one damaging. I’d like to have some might again so that someone taking SA isn’t at disadvantage against other thieves who have their mobility on their weapons (thus don’t really need SA).

Then I realized that even if this would happen (and it would really help me) – that the merged invulnerabilities of the traitlines of most other classes won’t go away and that is a huge problem for me. Thief never had passive stuff applied anyway (except Last Refuge which is now gone) all other classes (except Necros) now have twice as many.
So, they need to give thief passive stuff to make him on par with the other classes. And I’m not so sure I like that as D/D is the rawest form of combat in this game and maybe that’s why I can see all the passive stuff everybody has applied to them.

Sorry I went away from the pvp topic, but I guess the situation for thieves won’t improve unless anet
a) realizes there is a problem
b) realizes that reveal skills/traits are shutting a whole (butchered) traitline of thief down = turn them into lootbags
c) thief as a class is redesigned – as honestly; they would have to nerf all 8 other classes to help thief and that won’t happen.

Not to rain your parade but this about all thieves not just a single weaponset.

Thanks for joining the discussion though

T raw.4658:

Not to rain your parade but this about all thieves not just a single weaponset.

Thanks for joining the discussion though

Then think
I can see what nice stuff other classes have. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t affect D/P, S/D, P/D, P/P, SB or other classes. As I see it there’s no skill in this game anymore just “killed by chance/because one made a big mistake”.

I had a fun moment last game I played in PvP.

we were on forest of nilfheim, half the teams were up mid, duking it out as they always do. I was (attempting) to cap the henge/mine, keep us afloat points wise.

but these two necros and a mesmer wouldn’t let me. the second I was anywhere near capping, one of the necros would appear, and me, being a thief, would trot off like a kid found with a hand in the cookie jar. no point in fighting, especially not a necro (as a condi thief, I’ve got no chance).

on the rare occasion that I would be allowed to get away (staff 1 had a way of catching up to me, and if I stealthed I got AoE all over my face) I’d either find the other necro or their mesmer at the mine. suddenly, there’s no undefended points, no fights I can make a notable difference to, and I had no idea what to do. there was nothing to +1, no points being neglected, and nothing I could contribute.

it’s a pretty depressing feeling, if I’m honest.

so much this^^

right now pvp is like:
i see class X → NOPE, get out of here

unless there are some absurdly huge changes to drd, it won’t be any better (or rather it will be even worse) in HoT… at least this is based on BWE experience

It’s worth noting rev’s can keep up with thieves. In HOT, until a balance patch comes out, thieves ARE out of the meta, completely.

Gray.9041:

I had a fun moment last game I played in PvP.

we were on forest of nilfheim, half the teams were up mid, duking it out as they always do. I was (attempting) to cap the henge/mine, keep us afloat points wise.

but these two necros and a mesmer wouldn’t let me. the second I was anywhere near capping, one of the necros would appear, and me, being a thief, would trot off like a kid found with a hand in the cookie jar. no point in fighting, especially not a necro (as a condi thief, I’ve got no chance).

on the rare occasion that I would be allowed to get away (staff 1 had a way of catching up to me, and if I stealthed I got AoE all over my face) I’d either find the other necro or their mesmer at the mine. suddenly, there’s no undefended points, no fights I can make a notable difference to, and I had no idea what to do. there was nothing to +1, no points being neglected, and nothing I could contribute.

it’s a pretty depressing feeling, if I’m honest.

You know, I’ve found myself in that position several times, +1 only is effective if your making the fight unfair, Not fair..

This x1000000000000000000000000000000000000000

T raw.4658:

Is close to being matched by another class or negated to a point of who cares what will keep the thief in PvP? Serious discussion b/c from the way things are going thieves are really falling fast.

Yes currently with SB 5 and what not we are fast point to point. We can jump a fight and make it a nice +1 (though I must say with the sturdiness of classes now its more like +0.75). Problem is I see a trend where thieves’ mobility isn’t quite the must have. Yes I know right now thieves still have a place, but HoT is going to change A LOT.

I dunno if Dash + SB5 will be enough in light of yet another power creep where thieves’ creep just looks lack luster.

discuss

The Meta-Mindset is the problem. Whoever thought that Thief is only good on decapping and +1 needs to rethink the meta again.

Time and time again, I’ve watched matches where one team protects 2 nodes and protect them really well — no need for rotation or decapping. It only takes 3 members to protect a node and that could be a Necro, Engi, and a Thief (for example) — allowing the Thief to build pure DPS and brawl. However, this current meta only believes that Thief is only good at nothing but hopping around the map — which often times never works.

Thief don’t even need to go around the map looking to +1, they just need to stay in a node doing DPS.

Alas, it will take a while to get rid of this +1 meta-mindset.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Thief don’t even need to go around the map looking to +1, they just need to stay in a node doing DPS.

Alas, it will take a while to get rid of this +1 meta-mindset.

that’s nice and all…

but all they’d need to do to win that fight would be to… send… anyone. literally anyone. (possibly excepting another thief…)

Sir Vincent III.1286:

T raw.4658:

Is close to being matched by another class or negated to a point of who cares what will keep the thief in PvP? Serious discussion b/c from the way things are going thieves are really falling fast.

Yes currently with SB 5 and what not we are fast point to point. We can jump a fight and make it a nice +1 (though I must say with the sturdiness of classes now its more like +0.75). Problem is I see a trend where thieves’ mobility isn’t quite the must have. Yes I know right now thieves still have a place, but HoT is going to change A LOT.

I dunno if Dash + SB5 will be enough in light of yet another power creep where thieves’ creep just looks lack luster.

discuss

The Meta-Mindset is the problem. Whoever thought that Thief is only good on decapping and +1 needs to rethink the meta again.

Time and time again, I’ve watched matches where one team protects 2 nodes and protect them really well — no need for rotation or decapping. It only takes 3 members to protect a node and that could be a Necro, Engi, and a Thief (for example) — allowing the Thief to build pure DPS and brawl. However, this current meta only believes that Thief is only good at nothing but hopping around the map — which often times never works.

Thief don’t even need to go around the map looking to +1, they just need to stay in a node doing DPS.

Alas, it will take a while to get rid of this +1 meta-mindset.

Why would you even bother with a thief at that point when there are other classes that do that significantly better than a thief. Then there is the whole focus thief causing him to either:
A. Die making it now a 3v2
B. Run away making it now a 3v2

So really thanks again for helping prove my point!

Gray.9041:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Thief don’t even need to go around the map looking to +1, they just need to stay in a node doing DPS.

Alas, it will take a while to get rid of this +1 meta-mindset.

that’s nice and all…

but all they’d need to do to win that fight would be to… send… anyone. literally anyone. (possibly excepting another thief…)

If you read my entire post, you’ll realize that’s not what I meant.

In reality the thief’s role has never been to +1 fights, but to +1 ONLY 1v1 fights, because when a thief turns a 2v2 into a 3v2, it’s way too risky to engage, because the CC, extra sustain the 2 give each other and the collateral AoE damage on a node is at best prolonging the fight to a point where the thief is running out of fuel and at worst too much for the thief to endure.

In light of this I always wonder why people keep saying 1v1 ability is not important, when in fact if there were no 1v1s, thief would have no impact on matches, as there would never be an opportunity to 2v1.

That alone should be enough to understand that thief needs the ability to 1v1 just like any other meta build.

T raw.4658:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

T raw.4658:

Is close to being matched by another class or negated to a point of who cares what will keep the thief in PvP? Serious discussion b/c from the way things are going thieves are really falling fast.

Yes currently with SB 5 and what not we are fast point to point. We can jump a fight and make it a nice +1 (though I must say with the sturdiness of classes now its more like +0.75). Problem is I see a trend where thieves’ mobility isn’t quite the must have. Yes I know right now thieves still have a place, but HoT is going to change A LOT.

I dunno if Dash + SB5 will be enough in light of yet another power creep where thieves’ creep just looks lack luster.

discuss

The Meta-Mindset is the problem. Whoever thought that Thief is only good on decapping and +1 needs to rethink the meta again.

Time and time again, I’ve watched matches where one team protects 2 nodes and protect them really well — no need for rotation or decapping. It only takes 3 members to protect a node and that could be a Necro, Engi, and a Thief (for example) — allowing the Thief to build pure DPS and brawl. However, this current meta only believes that Thief is only good at nothing but hopping around the map — which often times never works.

Thief don’t even need to go around the map looking to +1, they just need to stay in a node doing DPS.

Alas, it will take a while to get rid of this +1 meta-mindset.

Why would you even bother with a thief at that point when there are other classes that do that significantly better than a thief. Then there is the whole focus thief causing him to either:
A. Die making it now a 3v2
B. Run away making it now a 3v2

So really thanks again for helping prove my point!

That depends on the team composition. Necro and Engi has a lot of tool to get the focus off the Thief so that the Thief can focus on DPS.

The concept is hard to grasp because of the current meta mindset. On top of that, Thieves are built to run away in the current meta, but I’m seeing more and more Marauder builds which imply the Thief is gearing for staying power.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

T raw.4658:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

T raw.4658:

Is close to being matched by another class or negated to a point of who cares what will keep the thief in PvP? Serious discussion b/c from the way things are going thieves are really falling fast.

Yes currently with SB 5 and what not we are fast point to point. We can jump a fight and make it a nice +1 (though I must say with the sturdiness of classes now its more like +0.75). Problem is I see a trend where thieves’ mobility isn’t quite the must have. Yes I know right now thieves still have a place, but HoT is going to change A LOT.

I dunno if Dash + SB5 will be enough in light of yet another power creep where thieves’ creep just looks lack luster.

discuss

The Meta-Mindset is the problem. Whoever thought that Thief is only good on decapping and +1 needs to rethink the meta again.

Time and time again, I’ve watched matches where one team protects 2 nodes and protect them really well — no need for rotation or decapping. It only takes 3 members to protect a node and that could be a Necro, Engi, and a Thief (for example) — allowing the Thief to build pure DPS and brawl. However, this current meta only believes that Thief is only good at nothing but hopping around the map — which often times never works.

Thief don’t even need to go around the map looking to +1, they just need to stay in a node doing DPS.

Alas, it will take a while to get rid of this +1 meta-mindset.

Why would you even bother with a thief at that point when there are other classes that do that significantly better than a thief. Then there is the whole focus thief causing him to either:
A. Die making it now a 3v2
B. Run away making it now a 3v2

So really thanks again for helping prove my point!

On top of that, Thieves are built to run away in the current meta, but I’m seeing more and more Marauder builds which imply the Thief is gearing for staying power.

You don’t even play thief do you LOL.

Wow

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The Meta-Mindset is the problem. Whoever thought that Thief is only good on decapping and +1 needs to rethink the meta again.

………. That is all that thief is good at doing right now. That’s why it IS meta for a thief. It is also why the thief forums are so full of despair and why thieves are grieving that their elite specialization is effectively a built in energy sigil.

You can certainly run something other than meta for thief. I do not PvP often, I run WvW mainly and I can ^^^^^ most of these posts by saying that if you aren’t set up for the meta or a meta-like build, you will either not have the burst damage to down your foe, or you will melt faster than you can clear the conditions and/or escape.

While there are certainly some L2P issues out there, as always, the majority of the thief player in this forum are not of that mold. This is serious issue where the class has been slowly nerfed to oblivion and given very little in the way of return. Thieves were always set up to be high risk for reward…but I find very few instances anymore where the risk is outweighed by the potential reward. Warriors and most engineers are able the only classes that I can reliably down in a short period of time. Rangers became insane powerhouses about three patches ago. Mesmers & necros…need I say more.

I am not the best thief around, but can generally hold my own in solo fights. I am not looking to start a “you don’t know the class, learn to fight” argument.

We need a viable way to return to the forefront, or at the very least, the competitive arena of the classes. The glaring issues have been listed time and again from everything gearing us towards mobility and away from confrontational viability, to removing our class mechanic (stealth) to a parlor trick that just about every other class can mimic or even do better than us now, to our ridiculous lack of condi-cleanse (even with the new specialization). Giving us more mobility, while nice, is not even close to beginning to address the issues with the class.

T raw.4658:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

T raw.4658:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

T raw.4658:

Is close to being matched by another class or negated to a point of who cares what will keep the thief in PvP? Serious discussion b/c from the way things are going thieves are really falling fast.

Yes currently with SB 5 and what not we are fast point to point. We can jump a fight and make it a nice +1 (though I must say with the sturdiness of classes now its more like +0.75). Problem is I see a trend where thieves’ mobility isn’t quite the must have. Yes I know right now thieves still have a place, but HoT is going to change A LOT.

I dunno if Dash + SB5 will be enough in light of yet another power creep where thieves’ creep just looks lack luster.

discuss

The Meta-Mindset is the problem. Whoever thought that Thief is only good on decapping and +1 needs to rethink the meta again.

Time and time again, I’ve watched matches where one team protects 2 nodes and protect them really well — no need for rotation or decapping. It only takes 3 members to protect a node and that could be a Necro, Engi, and a Thief (for example) — allowing the Thief to build pure DPS and brawl. However, this current meta only believes that Thief is only good at nothing but hopping around the map — which often times never works.

Thief don’t even need to go around the map looking to +1, they just need to stay in a node doing DPS.

Alas, it will take a while to get rid of this +1 meta-mindset.

Why would you even bother with a thief at that point when there are other classes that do that significantly better than a thief. Then there is the whole focus thief causing him to either:
A. Die making it now a 3v2
B. Run away making it now a 3v2

So really thanks again for helping prove my point!

On top of that, Thieves are built to run away in the current meta, but I’m seeing more and more Marauder builds which imply the Thief is gearing for staying power.

You don’t even play thief do you LOL.

Wow

Watching the pro-players do exactly that is enough IMO.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

T raw.4658:

You don’t even play thief do you LOL.

Wow

Watching the pro-players do exactly that is enough IMO.

no offense but… that’s really not how it works.

I mean, I can listen to musicians all day, doesn’t mean I know what strings work on a guitar.

Gray.9041:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

T raw.4658:

You don’t even play thief do you LOL.

Wow

Watching the pro-players do exactly that is enough IMO.

no offense but… that’s really not how it works.

I mean, I can listen to musicians all day, doesn’t mean I know what strings work on a guitar.

So you mean to say that you can never know something from observing?

I guess you’ll never know that sulfuric acid will melt your hands then unless you did it to yourself.

If that’s the case, then the OP is wrong also by stating;

“Serious discussion b/c from the way things are going thieves are really falling fast.”

I wonder who these “thieves” are, if not some other players he had observed.

What ever then.

I honestly don’t understand the mentality that ‘teef only good at recap’. When playing in SPvP I win the vast majority of 1v1s on my thief (unless going up against something where it’s futile. Looking at you, minionmancers). In a group fight, I tend to play the edges, applying pressure on someone who is weak, making them blow defensive CDs, disengaging and striking another target. Oftentimes in something like a 3v3 I can often burst down an opponent or interrupt to the point where it completely destroyed an enemy group’s ability to support one another.

My real bane are competent support guards, as there’s really very little I can do against them outside of pressuring them to the point of stopping them from being as useful to their team. Usually I’d like to rely on someone else to deal with them.

Ultimately, thief is what you make of it and I think the line of thought that ‘teef only good at recap’ is pretty much poison for the class. Yes, it’s a viable tactic that’s worked well in the past. The state of the game ‘is’ evolving and as a result it’s becoming less viable. This doesn’t mean the class is useless by any means. In my opinion you have far too many people who rely on others to do their thinking and strategizing for them.

For competitive games, I run d/p + shortbow Berserker Amulet. I’ve tried Marauder, but I find the increase in passive survivability (increased health pool) doesn’t balance out for my playstyle against the increased burst potential and reliance on active defenses of Berserker. I may yet shift over, but we’ll see where things go. I feel I should also note that I do not use the ‘meta’ build with its reliance on the SA tree. Currently I run Trickery/DA/Acrobatics. In HoT, that is likely to shift to either Trickery/DD/Acro or Trickery/DA/DD. The condition cleanse on evade is a beautiful thing.

If you haven’t really given it too much of a try, I really do suggest giving Hard to Catch in Acrobatics a chance. It does a LOT to prevent lockdowns and subsequent death, letting you save things like Shadowstep for other purposes. Point being…Thief could use help in some areas for sure. But it’s not so dire a situation as people are making it out to be. Find new tactics. Think outside the box a bit. Don’t just go with what is ‘accepted’.

Starlightmagus.8654:

I honestly don’t understand the mentality that ‘teef only good at recap’. When playing in SPvP I win the vast majority of 1v1s on my thief (unless going up against something where it’s futile. Looking at you, minionmancers). In a group fight, I tend to play the edges, applying pressure on someone who is weak, making them blow defensive CDs, disengaging and striking another target. Oftentimes in something like a 3v3 I can often burst down an opponent or interrupt to the point where it completely destroyed an enemy group’s ability to support one another.

My real bane are competent support guards, as there’s really very little I can do against them outside of pressuring them to the point of stopping them from being as useful to their team. Usually I’d like to rely on someone else to deal with them.

Ultimately, thief is what you make of it and I think the line of thought that ‘teef only good at recap’ is pretty much poison for the class. Yes, it’s a viable tactic that’s worked well in the past. The state of the game ‘is’ evolving and as a result it’s becoming less viable. This doesn’t mean the class is useless by any means. In my opinion you have far too many people who rely on others to do their thinking and strategizing for them.

For competitive games, I run d/p + shortbow Berserker Amulet. I’ve tried Marauder, but I find the increase in passive survivability (increased health pool) doesn’t balance out for my playstyle against the increased burst potential and reliance on active defenses of Berserker. I may yet shift over, but we’ll see where things go. I feel I should also note that I do not use the ‘meta’ build with its reliance on the SA tree. Currently I run Trickery/DA/Acrobatics. In HoT, that is likely to shift to either Trickery/DD/Acro or Trickery/DA/DD. The condition cleanse on evade is a beautiful thing.

If you haven’t really given it too much of a try, I really do suggest giving Hard to Catch in Acrobatics a chance. It does a LOT to prevent lockdowns and subsequent death, letting you save things like Shadowstep for other purposes. Point being…Thief could use help in some areas for sure. But it’s not so dire a situation as people are making it out to be. Find new tactics. Think outside the box a bit. Don’t just go with what is ‘accepted’.

+1

Sir Vincent III.1286:

T raw.4658:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

T raw.4658:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

T raw.4658:

Is close to being matched by another class or negated to a point of who cares what will keep the thief in PvP? Serious discussion b/c from the way things are going thieves are really falling fast.

Yes currently with SB 5 and what not we are fast point to point. We can jump a fight and make it a nice +1 (though I must say with the sturdiness of classes now its more like +0.75). Problem is I see a trend where thieves’ mobility isn’t quite the must have. Yes I know right now thieves still have a place, but HoT is going to change A LOT.

I dunno if Dash + SB5 will be enough in light of yet another power creep where thieves’ creep just looks lack luster.

discuss

The Meta-Mindset is the problem. Whoever thought that Thief is only good on decapping and +1 needs to rethink the meta again.

Time and time again, I’ve watched matches where one team protects 2 nodes and protect them really well — no need for rotation or decapping. It only takes 3 members to protect a node and that could be a Necro, Engi, and a Thief (for example) — allowing the Thief to build pure DPS and brawl. However, this current meta only believes that Thief is only good at nothing but hopping around the map — which often times never works.

Thief don’t even need to go around the map looking to +1, they just need to stay in a node doing DPS.

Alas, it will take a while to get rid of this +1 meta-mindset.

Why would you even bother with a thief at that point when there are other classes that do that significantly better than a thief. Then there is the whole focus thief causing him to either:
A. Die making it now a 3v2
B. Run away making it now a 3v2

So really thanks again for helping prove my point!

On top of that, Thieves are built to run away in the current meta, but I’m seeing more and more Marauder builds which imply the Thief is gearing for staying power.

You don’t even play thief do you LOL.

Wow

Watching the pro-players do exactly that is enough IMO.

Thank you for confirming you have zero credibility on thief game play Can you now stop posting about thieves since you dont know what you are talking about? No offense but I dont comment on classes I don’t play. The only time I do is in reference to a class i actually play.

I thank you for your time and replies in this thread. Please continue to contribute to this forum in a more constructive manner other than something you have no idea what you are talking about though.

From an Spvp standpoint, the problem is also that the maps are so small even if a Thief’s mobility can make it for a decap it doesn’t take long for someone to come and knock them right off.

Thief doesn’t have enough damage potential to justify its all around fragility.

The boon meta prevalent in Spvp and the ease of access to them is one of the biggest reasons Thief is struggling so hard. The lack of consequences for this meta has created this hosh posh of passive boon spam. Protection and aegis being far too accessible to far too many professions.

Also, Spvp meta builds revolve around passive defenses. This mentality comes from anet in the form of “everyones a winner.” These passive defenses do the work for many professions in the game and therefor severely lower the skill floor. The only passive defenses a Thief has access to is in stealth; That leads me to my next point.

Stealth is a double-edged sword in regards to Thief. To gain any sort of passive condi removal or sustain, stealth is REQUIRED. This is done via Shadow Arts which is the only viable option for a defensive tree a Thief has. Now a days, reveal is much more prevalent.

Why is this bad? Because unlike every other profession in the game, reveal shuts down an entire defensive trait line. It is the only mechanic in the game that completely nullifies a primary core defensive mechanic of a profession.

Stealth also means -1. So a Thief is always balancing +1 and -1. Once a Thief goes into stealth to recover with the passives it means its out of the fight. Where as most professions in the game can sustain while at the same time being on the offensive.

This is why Thief skill floor is so much higher than every other profession and the skill ceiling is getting lower…and lower…and lower.

This is also why Daredevil was created the way it was, to make up for the SA trees massive drawbacks.

Let’s hope Daredevil fills in the gaps and puts Thieves back where they need to be.

Also, i’m pretty sure Sir Vivcent is a Thief RP’er or something. It’s pretty obvious judging by his/her comments that he in fact doesn’t actually play a Thief in Spvp.

Bllade.1029:

From an Spvp standpoint, the problem is also that the maps are so small even if a Thief’s mobility can make it for a decap it doesn’t take long for someone to come and knock them right off.

Thief doesn’t have enough damage potential to justify its all around fragility.

The boon meta prevalent in Spvp and the ease of access to them is one of the biggest reasons Thief is struggling so hard. The lack of consequences for this meta has created this hosh posh of passive boon spam. Protection and aegis being far too accessible to far too many professions. Also, not enough potential consequences for using those boons.

Also, Spvp meta builds revolve around passive defenses. This mentality comes from anet in the form of “everyones a winner.” These passive defenses do the work for many professions in the game and therefor severely lower the skill floor. The only passive defenses a Thief has access to is in stealth; That leads me to my next point.

Stealth is a double-edged sword in regards to Thief. To gain any sort of passive condi removal or sustain, stealth is REQUIRED. This is done via Shadow Arts which is the only viable option for a defensive tree a Thief has. Now a days, reveal is much more prevalent.

Why is this bad? Because unlike every other profession in the game, reveal shuts down an entire defensive trait line. It is the only mechanic in the game that completely nullifies a primary core defensive mechanic of a profession.

Stealth also means -1. So a Thief is always balancing +1 and -1. Once a Thief goes into stealth to recover with the passives it means its out of the fight. Where as most professions in the game can sustain while at the same time being on the offensive.

This is why Thief skill floor is so much higher than every other profession and the skill ceiling is getting lower…and lower…and lower.

This is also why Daredevil was created the way it was, to make up for the SA trees massive drawbacks.

Let’s hope Daredevil fills in the gaps and puts Thieves back where they need to be.

Also, i’m pretty sure Sir Vivcent is a Thief RP’er or something. It’s pretty obvious judging by his/her comments that he in fact doesn’t actually play a Thief in Spvp.

+1 all of this.

IMO, I want to see the core thief improved, and DD bring something new/different/more to the proverbial table, rather be a band-aid for whats lacking in, and what should be, in other trait lines. That to me doesn’t say “elite”, nor is it like the other elite trees for the other professions… and it just baffles me how many people are actually content with this, let alone willing to actually pay for it. It’s 1/9 ways players get to explore and interact with the entire game. 11% of the game needs some real improvement.. (omitting the rest of this sentence).

Bllade.1029:

Also, i’m pretty sure Sir Vivcent is a Thief RP’er or something. It’s pretty obvious judging by his/her comments that he in fact doesn’t actually play a Thief in Spvp.

Are you really sure?

Once upon a time when Thief was viable using D/D and S/D, I was playing sPvP. Nowadays, I just watch the “pro” fails in their Thief. It’s really sad.

Not to be “that guy” but I believe we need to borrow more from WoW in a way. maybe give thief a profession skill that acts like smokebomb where you can’t target anything within the smoke? This would also apply to AoE fields since they can trivially bypass the lack of targeting. Also make scorpion wire a profession skill too (it’s like the death knight’s pull.)

Starlightmagus.8654:

I honestly don’t understand the mentality that ‘teef only good at recap’. When playing in SPvP I win the vast majority of 1v1s on my thief (unless going up against something where it’s futile. Looking at you, minionmancers). In a group fight, I tend to play the edges, applying pressure on someone who is weak, making them blow defensive CDs, disengaging and striking another target. Oftentimes in something like a 3v3 I can often burst down an opponent or interrupt to the point where it completely destroyed an enemy group’s ability to support one another.

My real bane are competent support guards, as there’s really very little I can do against them outside of pressuring them to the point of stopping them from being as useful to their team. Usually I’d like to rely on someone else to deal with them.

Ultimately, thief is what you make of it and I think the line of thought that ‘teef only good at recap’ is pretty much poison for the class. Yes, it’s a viable tactic that’s worked well in the past. The state of the game ‘is’ evolving and as a result it’s becoming less viable. This doesn’t mean the class is useless by any means. In my opinion you have far too many people who rely on others to do their thinking and strategizing for them.

For competitive games, I run d/p + shortbow Berserker Amulet. I’ve tried Marauder, but I find the increase in passive survivability (increased health pool) doesn’t balance out for my playstyle against the increased burst potential and reliance on active defenses of Berserker. I may yet shift over, but we’ll see where things go. I feel I should also note that I do not use the ‘meta’ build with its reliance on the SA tree. Currently I run Trickery/DA/Acrobatics. In HoT, that is likely to shift to either Trickery/DD/Acro or Trickery/DA/DD. The condition cleanse on evade is a beautiful thing.

If you haven’t really given it too much of a try, I really do suggest giving Hard to Catch in Acrobatics a chance. It does a LOT to prevent lockdowns and subsequent death, letting you save things like Shadowstep for other purposes. Point being…Thief could use help in some areas for sure. But it’s not so dire a situation as people are making it out to be. Find new tactics. Think outside the box a bit. Don’t just go with what is ‘accepted’.

See, the problem with saying “Oh yall are wrong, thieves arn’t only good at +1ing and decapping, they can fight too!” But then say you’re using the berserker amulet shows that you’re playing against incompetent players.

When you’re playing against the guys you see in tournaments, you can’t use berserker amulet, you will be worthless the entire game, dead on the floor. Not to mention you won’t be able to 1v1 any one. Ever. Doesnt matter whom.

There’s a reason people keep saying “Teef only good at recap” It’s because its true. Listen to the ‘pro’ thieves as they explicitly say "I find it hard to 1v1 most match ups, thieves just arn’t good at 1v1 right now .. "

And it’s attitude like yours thats preventing thieves from having a place in the meta game for HOT. As it stands, thieves in their current state won’t see any play in high level matches, the class is just flat out inferior in every way.

Christonya.3856:

When you’re playing against the guys you see in tournaments, you can’t use berserker amulet, you will be worthless the entire game, dead on the floor. Not to mention you won’t be able to 1v1 any one. Ever. Doesnt matter whom.

Christonya.3856:

There’s a reason people keep saying “Teef only good at recap” It’s because its true. Listen to the ‘pro’ thieves as they explicitly say "I find it hard to 1v1 most match ups, thieves just arn’t good at 1v1 right now .. "

It’s funny how contradictory these statements are.

First, Thief cannot 1v1 if using ‘zerker amulet, then on the next statement, where pros are using marauder amulet speaks that thieves aren’t good at 1v1 right now.

lol — which is it?

I tend to agree with the pros because no matter what your build is, you’re not meant to go 1v1 anymore. Instead, Thieves are better off staying with a small group protecting a node. Of course, other professions can do this better, then there’s nothing for Thief to do.

So the advice not to go ‘zerker is useless because it doesn’t really matter.

And it’s attitude like yours thats preventing thieves from having a place in the meta game for HOT. As it stands, thieves in their current state won’t see any play in high level matches, the class is just flat out inferior in every way.

Yet, you see them in high-level matches in its current state…lol — credible much?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

First, Thief cannot 1v1 if using ‘zerker amulet, then on the next statement, where pros are using marauder amulet speaks that thieves aren’t good at 1v1 right now.

…… Thieves can’t 1v1. And then my second statement is that the pros confirm it. I get 99% of trolls are stupid, but come on, are you THAT stupid?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Yet, you see them being phased out in high-level matches in its current state…lol

Fixed that last bit for you.

It’s not a matter of a Thief being able to one on one. That’s not really what Spvp is about anyways, remember it’s a team oriented game mode.

But I agree it takes a LOT more effort and skill on the Thieves part to be successful against these classes who have access to passive defenses. I mentioned this earlier, this is why Thief skill floor is so high.

In order for a Thief to beat these passive professions it has to play PERFECTLY be on it’s A game. There are no second chances, there is no forgiveness; where as every other profession in the game gets second even THIRD chances to recover and retaliate.

Sometimes like in the instance of Elementalists they dont even need to ACTIVELY defend themselves, they just go through a rotation and the passive traits will shut a Thief down.

I find that really embarassing, like using vampirism runes. When I saw vampirism runes in competitive Esports games I stopped taking that seriously.

Gray.9041:

…
I mean, I can listen to musicians all day, doesn’t mean I know what strings work on a guitar.
…

No… perhaps not, unless you started to learn about it. Like, you’re not exactly looking at the right source of information…

But provided you turn on your tinker while listening to said musicians and comparing contrasting styles, genres and sub-genres (what sets each apart, being able to identify it, by listening/picking up on it), learning about music, not necessarily touching an instrument (though, chance are you would probably at one point, out of your own interest), you could be very informed in music… Enough to analyze it. Ever met a music professor that doesn’t play a instrument or sing?

I get what you’re saying, though you’re over exaggerating. It’s like “I eat oranges, doesn’t mean I know how to grow them” … Yeah, but you can definitely learn a crap ton before planting the first seed.

Plus most of these kinds of discussion involve personal opinions or experiences and references to others’… Very little facts, if any. You could just as well discredit everyone here since they’re not one of the top 5 thieves (or something) – who are they to talk if they haven’t mastered AND proven (via tournies) that they know their stuff.

Christonya.3856:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

First, Thief cannot 1v1 if using ‘zerker amulet, then on the next statement, where pros are using marauder amulet speaks that thieves aren’t good at 1v1 right now.

…… Thieves can’t 1v1. And then my second statement is that the pros confirm it. I get 99% of trolls are stupid, but come on, are you THAT stupid?

Which contradicts with your first statement….lols

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Yet, you see them being phased out in high-level matches in its current state…lol

Fixed that last bit for you.

Right. The most recent Finals disagree with your credible opinion.

Zero Day.2594:

Plus most of these kinds of discussion involve personal opinions or experiences and references to others’… Very little facts, if any. You could just as well discredit everyone here since they’re not one of the top 5 thieves (or something) – who are they to talk if they haven’t mastered AND proven (via tournies) that they know their stuff.

Aw come on, I wanted to ride the wave a bit longer. Geeze.

Also, what’s with the obsessions of using 1v1 for balance…?

Like sure, you can probably balance it for 1v1…. soon as groups form up that synergize well together, those will be out of whack.

1v1 isn’t a mode (yet, come the guild halls…), at most it’s a scenario or a moment in something much larger….

I want to complain about me not begin awarded for finding the most optimal path between the banker and the TP! Thief can do it better than most. Better balance classes around that. (If you don’t get it, I made up my own game mode, racing between the banker and TP… I also feel that the game should be balanced around that, because I think it’s THE GAME MODE since I and a couple of buddies play it….. also I’m kind of mocking you)

Zero Day.2594:

Also, what’s with the obsessions of using 1v1 for balance…?

Like sure, you can probably balance it for 1v1…. soon as groups form up that synergize well together, those will be out of whack.

1v1 isn’t a mode (yet, come the guild halls…), at most it’s a scenario or a moment in something much larger….

Funny that you mentioned that. There are those who complains about the current and the upcoming meta, yet they argue to keep the current meta and not want it to change.

If they sincerely wants to change the meta, then this mindset about 1v1, +1, and decapping needs to be thrown out the window and let other options be explored.

I want to complain about me not begin awarded for finding the most optimal path between the banker and the TP! Thief can do it better than most. Better balance classes around that. (If you don’t get it, I made up my own game mode, racing between the banker and TP… I also feel that the game should be balanced around that, because I think it’s THE GAME MODE since I and a couple of buddies play it….. also I’m kind of mocking you)

I want a rapid clicking feature to be part of the game….those stacks of Essence of Luck is starting to irritate my index finger — it’s starting to affect my 1v1.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

…
I want a rapid clicking feature to be part of the game….those stacks of Essence of Luck is starting to irritate my index finger — it’s starting to affect my 1v1.

:( Sorry to hear that bro… try

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-a-Keyboard-to-Click-Instead-of-a-Mouse

Pair that with a macro…

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

…
I want a rapid clicking feature to be part of the game….those stacks of Essence of Luck is starting to irritate my index finger — it’s starting to affect my 1v1.

:( Sorry to hear that bro… try

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-a-Keyboard-to-Click-Instead-of-a-Mouse

Pair that with a macro…

I’m hesitant to use macros and my mouse has the rapid click feature, but ArenaNet is not very clear if that is “legal” — I don’t want to lose my account for crappy Magic Find — so I use my middle finger instead…that’s why I have 4 fingers and a thumb.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

…
I want a rapid clicking feature to be part of the game….those stacks of Essence of Luck is starting to irritate my index finger — it’s starting to affect my 1v1.

:( Sorry to hear that bro… try

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-a-Keyboard-to-Click-Instead-of-a-Mouse

Pair that with a macro…

I’m hesitant to use macros and my mouse has the rapid click feature, but ArenaNet is not very clear if that is “legal” — I don’t want to lose my account for crappy Magic Find — so I use my middle finger instead…that’s why I have 4 fingers and a thumb.

Keyboard macros that have sleep/time between presses…

Honestly if they ban someone for that and the person that got banned puts up a case/emails them – and they still don’t revoke their ban… Well, at that point they could walk away knowing that ANet doesn’t care much for their customers. Considering “open/consume all” is one of the most requested features… And if I as player have to find a work around for a quality of life improvement that’s being and been requested (for god knows how long), you’re doing something wrong as a developer.

I personally use the keyboard clicking w/o macro sometimes for that, I find that it’s faster than normal clicks.

If this game weren’t at some rate balanced around 1 vs 1, wouldn’t it be some kind of “trinity”?

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

…
I want a rapid clicking feature to be part of the game….those stacks of Essence of Luck is starting to irritate my index finger — it’s starting to affect my 1v1.

:( Sorry to hear that bro… try

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-a-Keyboard-to-Click-Instead-of-a-Mouse

Pair that with a macro…

I’m hesitant to use macros and my mouse has the rapid click feature, but ArenaNet is not very clear if that is “legal” — I don’t want to lose my account for crappy Magic Find — so I use my middle finger instead…that’s why I have 4 fingers and a thumb.

Keyboard macros that have sleep/time between presses…

Honestly if they ban someone for that and the person that got banned puts up a case/emails them – and they still don’t revoke their ban… Well, at that point they could walk away knowing that ANet doesn’t care much for their customers. Considering “open/consume all” is one of the most requested features… And if I as player have to find a work around for a quality of life improvement that’s being and been requested (for god knows how long), you’re doing something wrong as a developer.

I personally use the keyboard clicking w/o macro sometimes for that, I find that it’s faster than normal clicks.

Yeah, well the Thief is the living evidence that ArenaNet is doing something wrong as a developer — which is larger than a one-click-open/consume-all feature.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

…
I want a rapid clicking feature to be part of the game….those stacks of Essence of Luck is starting to irritate my index finger — it’s starting to affect my 1v1.

:( Sorry to hear that bro… try

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-a-Keyboard-to-Click-Instead-of-a-Mouse

Pair that with a macro…

I’m hesitant to use macros and my mouse has the rapid click feature, but ArenaNet is not very clear if that is “legal” — I don’t want to lose my account for crappy Magic Find — so I use my middle finger instead…that’s why I have 4 fingers and a thumb.

Keyboard macros that have sleep/time between presses…

Honestly if they ban someone for that and the person that got banned puts up a case/emails them – and they still don’t revoke their ban… Well, at that point they could walk away knowing that ANet doesn’t care much for their customers. Considering “open/consume all” is one of the most requested features… And if I as player have to find a work around for a quality of life improvement that’s being and been requested (for god knows how long), you’re doing something wrong as a developer.

I personally use the keyboard clicking w/o macro sometimes for that, I find that it’s faster than normal clicks.

Yeah, well the Thief is the living evidence that ArenaNet is doing something wrong as a developer — which is larger than a one-click-open/consume-all feature.

In their defense, a one-click-open/consume-all feature is much easier to implement than good role diversity and balance.

Let’s start with the small things and gradually progress to build self-confidence… so they can have it to tackle the big things.

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Zero Day.2594:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

…
I want a rapid clicking feature to be part of the game….those stacks of Essence of Luck is starting to irritate my index finger — it’s starting to affect my 1v1.

:( Sorry to hear that bro… try

http://www.wikihow.com/Use-a-Keyboard-to-Click-Instead-of-a-Mouse

Pair that with a macro…

I’m hesitant to use macros and my mouse has the rapid click feature, but ArenaNet is not very clear if that is “legal” — I don’t want to lose my account for crappy Magic Find — so I use my middle finger instead…that’s why I have 4 fingers and a thumb.

Keyboard macros that have sleep/time between presses…

Honestly if they ban someone for that and the person that got banned puts up a case/emails them – and they still don’t revoke their ban… Well, at that point they could walk away knowing that ANet doesn’t care much for their customers. Considering “open/consume all” is one of the most requested features… And if I as player have to find a work around for a quality of life improvement that’s being and been requested (for god knows how long), you’re doing something wrong as a developer.

I personally use the keyboard clicking w/o macro sometimes for that, I find that it’s faster than normal clicks.

Yeah, well the Thief is the living evidence that ArenaNet is doing something wrong as a developer — which is larger than a one-click-open/consume-all feature.

In their defense, a one-click-open/consume-all feature is much easier to implement than good role diversity and balance.

Let’s start with the small things and gradually progress to build self-confidence… so they can have it to tackle the big things.

I’m actually quite annoyed that they feel that the Action Camera is more important than one-click-open/consume-all feature

Gray.9041:

I had a fun moment last game I played in PvP.

we were on forest of nilfheim, half the teams were up mid, duking it out as they always do. I was (attempting) to cap the henge/mine, keep us afloat points wise.

but these two necros and a mesmer wouldn’t let me. the second I was anywhere near capping, one of the necros would appear, and me, being a thief, would trot off like a kid found with a hand in the cookie jar. no point in fighting, especially not a necro (as a condi thief, I’ve got no chance).

on the rare occasion that I would be allowed to get away (staff 1 had a way of catching up to me, and if I stealthed I got AoE all over my face) I’d either find the other necro or their mesmer at the mine. suddenly, there’s no undefended points, no fights I can make a notable difference to, and I had no idea what to do. there was nothing to +1, no points being neglected, and nothing I could contribute.

it’s a pretty depressing feeling, if I’m honest.

This feeling is EXACTLY why I went back to Mesmer somewhere around rank 50. Dragon rank now, still Mesmer.

Oddly enough 53% of my PVP games are still thief class. Mesmer is only 34%, but growing. Warrior is most after that, at only 5%. Lol.