Guild Wars 2

Where is the justification of nerfing this trait? i could understand the others, (Besides the vigor nerfs, those are dumb too.) but after saying you want to reward Thieves that are actively engaged in a fight, why would you nerf a trait that specifically does just that???

-Opportunist has always been a trait that gives great incentive to stick it out and keep in melee range to try and refresh some lost initiative. Now with kitten ICD it will turn into more of a back and forth waiting game from the thieves perspective; popping in to deal damage and get the crit, and getting out to wait for the next burst in 4-5 secs instead of constantly staying int eh fight assaulting your target.

I really feel this is harmful to the whole playstyle in all game modes and it completely goes against what you are trying to rework the class into. Like i already stated this isa trait that gives reward to any Thief sticking it out in a fight instead of running to come back at a more opportunistic time.

Now i can go off about the rest of the unecessary nerfs as well but I’ll leave it at this, since this really is the most absurd one of them all imo.

Discuss.

Not to mention that was the trait that made P/P bearable. Coupled with the nerf to quick recovery I might never use my pistols again.

Switch.4892:

Not to mention that was the trait that made P/P bearable. Coupled with the nerf to quick recovery I might never use my pistols again.

Yeah, S/P will feel it too.

D/D super unicorn will feel it too.

Excalibur.9748:

D/D super unicorn will feel it too.

Pretty sure we can all agree it is a nerf to all builds, which is why i made this post =)

Absolutely agree with the fact that this nerf contradicts the intended patch philosophy of the thief to stay engaded in combat.

I’m strongly against this nerf.

+ It’s more or less a finishing blow to the P/P thief … but as of this writing it’s more dead than alive anyway so that didn’t change that much :D (would love to see the P/P thief viable, but with this Opportunist nerf even enthusiasts like me will have to move to something different :-/)
+ It’s not like we can at least not take this trait if we want to invest into the Critical Strikes line (there was decent suggestion in a different thread of switching it out with Practiced Tolerance, though i’d be more happy if they just wouldn’t nerf this trait at all.)

For D/D and D/P it’s actually a huge buff.

hihey.1075:

For D/D and D/P it’s actually a huge buff.

explain please?

hihey.1075:

For D/D and D/P it’s actually a huge buff.

I keep hearing people quoting the devs, “It’s a MASSSSSIVE buff!”, and yet anyone who does a modicum of math realizes that it’s a huge nerf and exactly contradictory to their stated aim of normalizing AND increasing initiative gain.

Switch.4892:

hihey.1075:

For D/D and D/P it’s actually a huge buff.

explain please?

Because as a D/D or D/P, your main source of damage will be backstabs. You will land only 3-4 hits then have to get back to either stealth or kiting.
Now, with the 10% chance on crit to gain 1 ini, there was a chance that this trait does not even proc in this limited time frame. With the increased chance of 50% the chances that it will proc by such quick bursts is highly increased – actually I would say that you will CERTAINLY get it to proc at every burst you do.

With the upcoming change, I will CERTAINLY get 1 ini back at each burst I do, as a D/P thief at least. Then, when I have to get back to stealth via Black Powder→Heartseeker, the trait will be recharging, and it will be ready to proc again on the next burst I do.

This change will hurst only P/X thieves, and S/X thieves to an extent, because these thieves will either have bursts with a lot of hits (P/X) or will have to keep constantly hitting to do damage (S/X). But D/X thieves, whose rotation is usually:

D/D:
CnD→Backstab→1 autoattack chain→CnD→Backstab…
or
D/P
BP→Heartseeker→Backstab→1autoattack chain→BP→HS…

will benefit A LOT from the upcoming change.

hihey.1075:

Now, with the 10% chance on crit to gain 1 ini, there was a chance that this trait does not even proc in this limited time frame. With the increased chance of 50% the chances that it will proc by such quick bursts is highly increased – actually I would say that you will CERTAINLY get it to proc at every burst you do.

Umm… Opportunist as it is today is a 30% chance on crit.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Opportunist_%28thief%29

I think this is overly nerfed when compared to how other traits are. Either decrease the ICD to 2-3s or make the proc chance 100% on crit.

The trait should either be:

1. 50% to gain one initiative on crit with a cooldown of 3 seconds
2. 100% to gain one initiative on crit with a cooldown of 6 seconds

But take a look at pistol whip and unload. PLEASE
This trait is that very thing that allows P/P and S/P to actually do damage.

JonPeters.5630:

I said it in he other thread but this trait has to get hit hard because it is breaking the profession. We need to push the effectiveness of this trait into base thief functionality. If any other profession had a trait that reduced weapon cooldown by 30% for all weapons as a 15 point minor we would have to balance around that. A single trait shouldn’t be holding thief balance hostage so we will steal from this trait, no pun intended, and impart the savings on to every build via base initiative regeneration.

Jon

The difference is though that it’s a 30% recharge to a single attack at a time. All of our weapon skills recharge in series while all other professions recharge in parallel. With each skill affecting the next that can be used, this helps to push some semblance of being on par with other classes’ inherent recharge rate, especially when the global cooldown is shared amongst both of our equipped weapons. When you look at this compared to something like a guard’s two handed mastery (I realize one’s a major and one’s a minor) it’s barely on par. Also in that same line guards can get perma-vigor for a 5 point minor trait. To get effectiveness thats the same /(slightly) better, we end up having to take at least 15 points into the line plus an adept major trait (which is getting nerfed). The base initiative regen boost is needed, but the simultaneous nerf is going to seriously affect power-crit builds which are already “meh” in a dire-condition meta.

Switch.4892:

Not to mention that was the trait that made P/P bearable. Coupled with the nerf to quick recovery I might never use my pistols again.

I was about to make my ascended revolver and now its on hold

The math seems to indicate that Opportunist will work pretty close to the same regen rate as it did before. The new Opportunist will regen slightly slower for most builds but the new upgraded regen rate brings it on par with the old system. If you didn’t trait Opportunist, you will see a nice buff headed your way. If you did trait it, you probably won’t even notice the difference in the patch.

There really isn’t much to see here at least until post patch when we can see the true effect.

Here is a probability distribution of the current opportunist with dagger auto attack (2 rounds; a total of 4 seconds and 8 individual hits not affecting the next time frame). As you can see its not really overpowered for regular attacking. What it is severely going to hurt is builds like S/P and P/P who can fit more than 8 attacks into a 4 second time frame. Those builds do not need a nerf right now. (to read it you need to know the region of at least X to Y initiative gain versus the total area under the curve).

(As a side note, I think what bothers me most about this patch is it rewards less active/aggressive play through this and HtC)

Jon, if this trait is specifically what needs to be toned down, then tone this specifically down and don’t hit traited steal and traited signets as well.

Pleases, come right out and say it: without specific traits, thieves in general had too little initiative regen, but with those specific traits, you think we had way too much regen. So you’re very significantly reducing this trait and fixing the bug in the initiative gain on re-stealthing while already stealthed.

Fine. Say that. Then we can discuss that. Don’t blow smoke up our butts and tell us that this isn’t a nerf. It is. But it may be reasonable, but we have to talk about it as it is.

And for god’s sake don’t go overboard. Don’t touch klepto or signet +init. It’s going to be painful enough as it is.

Can you say it plainly? Or are you too worried about the backlash?

JonPeters.5630:

I said it in he other thread but this trait has to get hit hard because it is breaking the profession. We need to push the effectiveness of this trait into base thief functionality. If any other profession had a trait that reduced weapon cooldown by 30% for all weapons as a 15 point minor we would have to balance around that. A single trait shouldn’t be holding thief balance hostage so we will steal from this trait, no pun intended, and impart the savings on to every build via base initiative regeneration.

Jon

What?!?

I don’t understand Jon. You’re saying a 15 point minor that reduces cooldown on all weapon set is OP yet you moved Mesmer’s Illusionists Celerity from a 25 minor to a 15 minor (reducing all cooldown of illusion summon skill by 20% which affect all weapon sets and 4 utilties). That is kittenING OP but nothing is being done to balance around it.

I don’t understand your logic……

Im okay with the nerf in opportunist, the problem is they are not giving us anything in return for the loss of initiative. the buff to ini regen is not enough to cover the huge loss

JonPeters.5630:

I said it in he other thread but this trait has to get hit hard because it is breaking the profession. We need to push the effectiveness of this trait into base thief functionality. If any other profession had a trait that reduced weapon cooldown by 30% for all weapons as a 15 point minor we would have to balance around that. A single trait shouldn’t be holding thief balance hostage so we will steal from this trait, no pun intended, and impart the savings on to every build via base initiative regeneration.

Jon

Are you just going to pretend the change to Ilusionist’s Celerity never happened? Then you went and ignored Critical Infusion too.

This blatant disregard for consistency is RIDICULOUS.

JonPeters.5630:

I said it in he other thread but this trait has to get hit hard because it is breaking the profession. We need to push the effectiveness of this trait into base thief functionality. If any other profession had a trait that reduced weapon cooldown by 30% for all weapons as a 15 point minor we would have to balance around that. A single trait shouldn’t be holding thief balance hostage so we will steal from this trait, no pun intended, and impart the savings on to every build via base initiative regeneration.

Jon

You can’t really compare it to another profession’s cooldown reduction like that though because all of our skills share the same resource, including onw eapon swap. we don’t have any way to renew our “cooldowns” for example like a warrior would by swapping to his next set and using what is available there.

It would be comparable if you said “Reduces cooldowns on all weapon sets by 30% but all skills share that that cooldown.” Which i am sure nobody would appreciate.

EDIT: for example if i ever wished to fire down through all of the abilities on a weapon set consecutively (D/P for example) i cannot afford to do that. i simply do not have enough initiative. Other classes can, and that really just makes this entire situation incomparable.

Jon doesn’t get it. Or can’t acknowledge that he was wrong or that he misunderstood it.

Either way, our chances of an improvement to over-all thief play is looking grim if the mechanics of a shared resource pool aren’t understood by those making decisions.

Also, Jon aside from my obvious disagreement with your decision, i really do appreciate you taking the time to communicate this entire thing.

JonPeters.5630:

I said it in he other thread but this trait has to get hit hard because it is breaking the profession. We need to push the effectiveness of this trait into base thief functionality. If any other profession had a trait that reduced weapon cooldown by 30% for all weapons as a 15 point minor we would have to balance around that. A single trait shouldn’t be holding thief balance hostage so we will steal from this trait, no pun intended, and impart the savings on to every build via base initiative regeneration.

Jon

This response shows a profound lack of understanding of how thieves work and of the concerns of the class at large.

aaron.7850:

Im okay with the nerf in opportunist, the problem is they are not giving us anything in return for the loss of initiative. the buff to ini regen is not enough to cover the huge loss

Yeah… think you are wrong on that. In 60 seconds a thief will regen 15 more initiative with the new system. I don’t know how many Unload/Pistol Whips with Opportunity can be done in that time but it would have to be north of 30 before it beats out the new system. It would need to be over 40 before it is a sizable loss.

Most players just got a big buff since the current Opportunity alone cannot regen 40% more initiative (about what the new system will regen with the new Opportunity) on most builds.

Heizero.9183:

JonPeters.5630:

I said it in he other thread but this trait has to get hit hard because it is breaking the profession. We need to push the effectiveness of this trait into base thief functionality. If any other profession had a trait that reduced weapon cooldown by 30% for all weapons as a 15 point minor we would have to balance around that. A single trait shouldn’t be holding thief balance hostage so we will steal from this trait, no pun intended, and impart the savings on to every build via base initiative regeneration.

Jon

You can’t really compare it to another profession’s cooldown reduction like that though because all of our skills share the same resource, including onw eapon swap. we don’t have any way to renew our “cooldowns” for example like a warrior would by swapping to his next set and using what is available there.

It would be comparable if you said “Reduces cooldowns on all weapon sets by 30% but all skills share that that cooldown.” Which i am sure nobody would appreciate.

EDIT: for example if i ever wished to fire down through all of the abilities on a weapon set consecutively (D/P for example) i cannot afford to do that. i simply do not have enough initiative. Other classes can, and that really just makes this entire situation incomparable.

{sarcasm} Thief is not meant to have a unique mechanic. Thief is a short range ranger, wimpy warrior, whiny guardian, and a 180 sec cooldown mesmer. All rolled into one! Why can’t you see that.{/sarcasm}

Yeah initiative provides for burst… NO MORE BURST /slapshand bad thief.

Straegen.2938:

aaron.7850:

Im okay with the nerf in opportunist, the problem is they are not giving us anything in return for the loss of initiative. the buff to ini regen is not enough to cover the huge loss

Yeah… think you are wrong on that. In 60 seconds a thief will regen 15 more initiative with the new system. I don’t know how many Unload/Pistol Whips with Opportunity can be done in that time but it would have to be north of 30 before it beats out the new system. It would need to be over 40 before it is a sizable loss.

Most players just got a big buff since the current Opportunity alone cannot regen 40% more initiative (about what the new system will regen with the new Opportunity) on most builds.

12 unloads (60 second of initiative regen +15 base) alone regen anywhere between 12-24 initiative, 16-17 on average. These 3 more unloads, recursively, generate even more initiative. For that regened initiative, you can make one more unload that will regen initiative.

You have 15 base, 45 regen and a TON of opportunities (literally, not just trait name)
After patch – you have 15 base and 72 regen. Nothing more, nothing less. No room for error, and no room for brain.

JonPeters.5630:

I said it in he other thread but this trait has to get hit hard because it is breaking the profession. We need to push the effectiveness of this trait into base thief functionality. If any other profession had a trait that reduced weapon cooldown by 30% for all weapons as a 15 point minor we would have to balance around that. A single trait shouldn’t be holding thief balance hostage so we will steal from this trait, no pun intended, and impart the savings on to every build via base initiative regeneration.

Jon

You mean like Warriors having access to a 15 point minor that reduces the cooldown of weapon swapping by HALF?

Also, if you truly wanted to shift initiative regen away from this trait and give it to the whole profession, you should have considered the consequences.

You are directly nerfing S/P and P/P builds, two sets which are already struggling in PvP.

You are also nerfing D/D direct damage in PvE.

Please just call it what it is, or re-calculate the overall buff to initiative regen that needs to be done to break even with these nerfs to our traits.

JonPeters.5630:

I said it in he other thread but this trait has to get hit hard because it is breaking the profession. We need to push the effectiveness of this trait into base thief functionality. If any other profession had a trait that reduced weapon cooldown by 30% for all weapons as a 15 point minor we would have to balance around that. A single trait shouldn’t be holding thief balance hostage so we will steal from this trait, no pun intended, and impart the savings on to every build via base initiative regeneration.

Jon

Breaking the profession? sorry maybe im not playing the same game….thieves are not even in the top 2 best at 1v1 characters anymore…i mean its arguable but in the sense that its arguable and not definitive its not a broken class. even right now as it is…thief isnt above and beyond any other character…better than ranger ill say it…. but seriously?

2ndly….. you keep making the thief worse. no buffs. none. i mean steal and FS were nice but FS is keep gettin gnerfed and steal is only f1 vs other classes f1f2f3f4. you say you want to balance thief and blah blah blah…but you dont touch why the thief isnt balanced in the first place…. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO………

would you please tell us why thief is being nerfed in the first place ( not to mention every patch ever patched :P)….is he too good at WVW group play? is he too good at PVE? is he too good at 4 v 4s(aka small skirmishes) ? is he too good at spvp/tpvp?

bottom line is you can say that thief gets too many attacks vs other characters (although not true but just for instance) and forget the big picture is that its not helping them. thieves are OP…they arent even a top 3 class. i mean if u talk about 1 v 1 perhaps a top 3 or even likely 2nd/3rd ARGUABLY but 1v1 has no place in this game. if you travel alone you run the risk of being ganked. its a community style game.

thief has lost its basics….the game has lost its basics. Perhaps its time to get back to the basics and remember what drew people to this game in the first place. it def wasnt dumbed down skills and playstyles.

(you think they made battlefield 4 less complicated and easier than call of duty? NO they made it hella better and more options…not dumbing it down. wtf is wrong with you guys?)

Alright in an attempt to pull the discussion back into the main idea I had: I believe it is still a mistake to nerf it because in order to get any play out of this trait you HAVE to be actively engaged. period. if you are not striking the trait does nothing.

I find it hard to call a trait that relies on a notoriously squishy class to actively engage in open combat to be effective “profession breaking”.

If anything, giving us another reason to say “hey let me just wait until this ICD is up to come back into the fight” is less than ideal.

Heizero.9183:

Alright in an attempt to pull the discussion back into the main idea I had: I believe it is still a mistake to nerf it because in order to get any play out of this trait you HAVE to be actively engaged. period. if you are not striking the trait does nothing.

I find it hard to call a trait that relies on a notoriously squishy class to actively engage in open combat to be effective “profession breaking”.

If anything, giving us another reason to say “hey let me just wait until this ICD is up to come back into the fight” is less than ideal.

Well put.

JonPeters.5630:

I said it in he other thread but this trait has to get hit hard because it is breaking the profession. We need to push the effectiveness of this trait into base thief functionality. If any other profession had a trait that reduced weapon cooldown by 30% for all weapons as a 15 point minor we would have to balance around that. A single trait shouldn’t be holding thief balance hostage so we will steal from this trait, no pun intended, and impart the savings on to every build via base initiative regeneration.

Jon

You philosophy is not wrong but your implementation is.

The whole cs line is a must have in any non-condi build. Without putting points in this line the thief class does no damage. It’s not just the one trait that’s the problem. It’s the whole cs line. You need this line or you will suck. It’s not like a warrior where you don’t need 30 arms to do good damage.

According to your philosophy the entire cs line needs “to be hit hard”. In my opinion everything else needs to be brought up to par.

Sifu.6527:

JonPeters.5630:

I said it in he other thread but this trait has to get hit hard because it is breaking the profession. We need to push the effectiveness of this trait into base thief functionality. If any other profession had a trait that reduced weapon cooldown by 30% for all weapons as a 15 point minor we would have to balance around that. A single trait shouldn’t be holding thief balance hostage so we will steal from this trait, no pun intended, and impart the savings on to every build via base initiative regeneration.

Jon

What?!?

I don’t understand Jon. You’re saying a 15 point minor that reduces cooldown on all weapon set is OP yet you moved Mesmer’s Illusionists Celerity from a 25 minor to a 15 minor (reducing all cooldown of illusion summon skill by 20% which affect all weapon sets and 4 utilties). That is kittenING OP but nothing is being done to balance around it.

I don’t understand your logic……

to be honest, its not quite as hax, first of all only two skills per weapon set summon illusions, second of all its only 20% instead of 30%. The truth is, it was in fact a trait that you almost had to take, illusion skill, not so much. its nice, but ehhh. Also if they lowered all cast times on illusions, and bumped the trait down, so that it was essentially the same cast time, no one would complain. And by the numbers, they essentially did that with opportunist. its not really .3 ini per second unless you are very lucky, and during specific skills, due to cast time, and crit chance.

the truth is that the ini changes are probably better overall.

HOWEVER, i think opportunist could use some other benefit, that rewards pressure attacks as opposed to stealth or dodging for extended periods

What thief only runs 15 points in critical strikes for opportunist? People go 30 points into critical strikes to be able to actually do any substantial direct damage using the grandmaster trait. Picking up opportunist was a nice bonus.

phys.7689:

Sifu.6527:

JonPeters.5630:

I said it in he other thread but this trait has to get hit hard because it is breaking the profession. We need to push the effectiveness of this trait into base thief functionality. If any other profession had a trait that reduced weapon cooldown by 30% for all weapons as a 15 point minor we would have to balance around that. A single trait shouldn’t be holding thief balance hostage so we will steal from this trait, no pun intended, and impart the savings on to every build via base initiative regeneration.

Jon

What?!?

I don’t understand Jon. You’re saying a 15 point minor that reduces cooldown on all weapon set is OP yet you moved Mesmer’s Illusionists Celerity from a 25 minor to a 15 minor (reducing all cooldown of illusion summon skill by 20% which affect all weapon sets and 4 utilties). That is kittenING OP but nothing is being done to balance around it.

I don’t understand your logic……

to be honest, its not quite as hax, first of all only two skills per weapon set summon illusions, second of all its only 20% instead of 30%. The truth is, it was in fact a trait that you almost had to take, illusion skill, not so much. its nice, but ehhh. Also if they lowered all cast times on illusions, and bumped the trait down, so that it was essentially the same cast time, no one would complain. And by the numbers, they essentially did that with opportunist. its not really .3 ini per second unless you are very lucky, and during specific skills, due to cast time, and crit chance.

the truth is that the ini changes are probably better overall.

HOWEVER, i think opportunist could use some other benefit, that rewards pressure attacks as opposed to stealth or dodging for extended periods

I can get behind this idea as well. If dead -set on the nerf to 5 seconds, how about working on some type of compensation to incentivize committing to an engagement.

That’s so funny, you guys just look at this from side. You all trying to explain about class (many of you spends thousand hours of thief gameplay) to devs which is definitely don’t understand and killing whole class with “masssive baff”. Just calm down and let’s see how many thieves will left in game after 10-th dec. Maybe after that, they will realized what’s they have done.

Malik.6781:

That’s so funny, you guys just look at this from side. You all trying to explain about class (many of you spends thousand hours of thief gameplay) to devs which is definitely don’t understand and killing whole class with “masssive baff”. Just calm down and let’s see how many thieves will left in game after 10-th dec. Maybe after that, they will realized what’s they have done.

That’s not what this thread is about and that really isn’t furthering this discussion in anyway. Can we please keep future posts relevant?

I run a D/D+S/D thief with 50% critical rate and have the Opportunist trait, but do not have any additional initiative regeneration trait. This would mean that I have 0.75 + 0.5 * 0.3 = 0.90 initiative/second when continuously attacking. The current base initiative regeneration is 0.75 initiative/second, and will be changed up to 1.00 initiative/second. If I neglect the fact that I’m not attacking/hitting 100% of the time and if I neglect the new opportunist trait entirely, doesn’t that mean I still get a 0.1 initiative/second boost?

I also run a D/P+SB thief build occasionally with 60% critical rate and both the Opportunist and Quick Recovery trait. This means that I have 0.75 + 0.6 * 0.3 + 2 / 10 = 1.13 initiative/second when continuously attacking. With the proposed changes, I will have 1.00 + 1 / 10 = 1.10 initiative/second. Once again, in this equation I am neglecting the fact that the new Opportunist triggers at all and the fact that I cannot attack 100% of the time to trigger Opportunist as it is now. Neglecting all that, I would lose a mere 0.03 initiative/second?

For most thief builds, including a not aforementioned S/D initiative hungry build that I occasionally play, wouldn’t that mean that initiative regeneration does get quite a bit of a boost? All of those assumptions went with the idea that I will always be attacking, but I spent a good deal of time in stealth, chasing enemies, being disabled, teleporting around, stomping or even missing attacks.

If I’m wrong here, please do correct me and enlighten me as to why.

We are not worrying about initiative on S/D or D/D in general, we are not worrying about builds that BUILD AROUND the ridiculous initiative regeneration (and those are getting rightfully hit with nerfbat). We worry about builds for which current situation is the one that promotes more skillful play with higher gains, unlike the proposed ones that eliminates the difference between “do more = get more” and “do less or more = do not get less or more”

phys.7689:

Sifu.6527:

JonPeters.5630:

I said it in he other thread but this trait has to get hit hard because it is breaking the profession. We need to push the effectiveness of this trait into base thief functionality. If any other profession had a trait that reduced weapon cooldown by 30% for all weapons as a 15 point minor we would have to balance around that. A single trait shouldn’t be holding thief balance hostage so we will steal from this trait, no pun intended, and impart the savings on to every build via base initiative regeneration.

Jon

What?!?

I don’t understand Jon. You’re saying a 15 point minor that reduces cooldown on all weapon set is OP yet you moved Mesmer’s Illusionists Celerity from a 25 minor to a 15 minor (reducing all cooldown of illusion summon skill by 20% which affect all weapon sets and 4 utilties). That is kittenING OP but nothing is being done to balance around it.

I don’t understand your logic……

to be honest, its not quite as hax, first of all only two skills per weapon set summon illusions, second of all its only 20% instead of 30%. The truth is, it was in fact a trait that you almost had to take, illusion skill, not so much. its nice, but ehhh. Also if they lowered all cast times on illusions, and bumped the trait down, so that it was essentially the same cast time, no one would complain. And by the numbers, they essentially did that with opportunist. its not really .3 ini per second unless you are very lucky, and during specific skills, due to cast time, and crit chance.

the truth is that the ini changes are probably better overall.

HOWEVER, i think opportunist could use some other benefit, that rewards pressure attacks as opposed to stealth or dodging for extended periods

If you want to get technical with me, Mesmer’s S/S has 3 summon illusion skills so not all sets are limited to a max of 2 summon skills. Your comment regarding opportunist being a “must have” trait is subjective.

Again, I nevered complained about the opportunist nerf. I just questioned his “excuse” or “analogy” behind the nerf.

Deathspike, as a thief who runs with 65-70% crit chance, I’m losing even more than you, so it’s pretty much a swash.

Then on top of that, we lose more with the kleptomaniac nerf. And more with the signet nerf.

So yeah. This is ridiculously heavy handed.

Ichishi.9613:

You have 15 base, 45 regen and a TON of opportunities (literally, not just trait name)
After patch – you have 15 base and 72 regen. Nothing more, nothing less. No room for error, and no room for brain.

Pre patch the max init regen (using Opportunity and base regen) is 105. The highest post patch will be 72 as you stated. That seems like a big difference but virtually no build is going to be able to spam 3.3 critical shots every second of that minute. Only a very small handful of skills can guarantee a ROI of 1 init per second from Opportunity. The skills that can do that cost too much to spam endlessly.

IMO, most builds that use Opp to regen were probably hitting in the 70s on this scale. Some builds will probably take a hit during bursts but will likely even out over the attack chains. Every other build is likely to see a small to very large improvement in overall DPS.

As I pointed out in other posts as well as Jon from Anet, Opportunity is a mid-tier minor trait that should not define builds. If it is a trait that defines builds it should be a Grand Master trait that requires sacrifice to get. They gave us a giant buff and likely a mostly minor nerf. Opp regen builds (S/P and P/P) didn’t really get anything out of it but I am so sure they lost much either.

Okay Straegen, the nerf to Opportunities roughly matches the buff to base init regen.

Is it necessary to nerf my emergency init (Klepto and 3 signets) from 9 down to 5?

Can you nerf that and still lie through your teeth and call this a “MASSSSSSSSSIVE BUFF”?

Straegen.2938:

Ichishi.9613:

You have 15 base, 45 regen and a TON of opportunities (literally, not just trait name)
After patch – you have 15 base and 72 regen. Nothing more, nothing less. No room for error, and no room for brain.

Pre patch the max init regen (using Opportunity and base regen) is 105. The highest post patch will be 72 as you stated. That seems like a big difference but virtually no build is going to be able to spam 3.3 critical shots every second of that minute. Only a very small handful of skills can guarantee a ROI of 1 init per second from Opportunity. The skills that can do that cost too much to spam endlessly.

IMO, most builds that use Opp to regen were probably hitting in the 70s on this scale. Some builds will probably take a hit during bursts but will likely even out over the attack chains. Every other build is likely to see a small to very large improvement in overall DPS.

As I pointed out in other posts as well as Jon from Anet, Opportunity is a mid-tier minor trait that should not define builds. If it is a trait that defines builds it should be a Grand Master trait that requires sacrifice to get. They gave us a giant buff and likely a mostly minor nerf. Opp regen builds (S/P and P/P) didn’t really get anything out of it but I am so sure they lost much either.

You are misunderstanding. Opportunist does not define S/P or P/P nor is required by them. Just as well as opportunist does not define or is required by any other build. It is just the sole fact that out of all builds, both overpowered and underplayed, mediocre-to-good build were buffed by the change while weak builds were hit by it negatively.

Just as well the P/P and S/P are not hit HARD with this change it is just the sole fact that this change was brought in as a MASSIVE BUFF to any and all thieves.
But the change to opportunist did not include the compensation for those builds that actually actively, willingly, skillfully used it.
Thief gets more BASELINE power at the cost of lowering the skill ceiling and abandoning benefits that reaching that ceiling could give.
Look. D/D will make more CnD or more DB with this change.
S/D will make more stips with this change.
Godly SB doesn’t really care.
D/P will make more Heartseekers with this change.
P/P will make less Unloads.
S/P will make less Pistol Whips.
Does not sound like a buff for everyone.

I already did my calculations (because, for some reason, offensive skill cap is nearly non-existant in this game) and already proved that in this exactly way as it way now posted, this change barely evens out on P/P IF:
1) Pure single target dps
2) No additional combat modifiers (like quickness/burst phases/invuln stacks)
3) Not a perfect understanding and acting for the specific encounter
If any of those are not present current Opportunist beats the new one. Just plainly.

I do not demand the cardinal change or any action in particular taken in terms of the change’s functionality. I want a sincere answer to the questions “were those particular builds considered in making this change?” and “to what extent, in what conditions, with which numbers they were considered?”

If ANET says it a buff I want to be able to believe it is.

If ANET says this change was needed I want to be able to believe there was a big number of suggestions and each of them was considered in at least most applicable situations, and the best one was chosen.

If ANET takes part in constructive discussion I want them to show at least believable amount of awareness and expertise on subject, so that replies would not look like excuses.

Maugetarr.6823:

Here is a probability distribution of the current opportunist with dagger auto attack (2 rounds; a total of 4 seconds and 8 individual hits not affecting the next time frame). As you can see its not really overpowered for regular attacking. What it is severely going to hurt is builds like S/P and P/P who can fit more than 8 attacks into a 4 second time frame. Those builds do not need a nerf right now. (to read it you need to know the region of at least X to Y initiative gain versus the total area under the curve).

(As a side note, I think what bothers me most about this patch is it rewards less active/aggressive play through this and HtC)

Good graph. You can draw it in a sky, write it in a dictionary or etch it into concrete, and it still wouldn’t be taken seriously by the team

JonPeters.5630:

I said it in he other thread but this trait has to get hit hard because it is breaking the profession. We need to push the effectiveness of this trait into base thief functionality. If any other profession had a trait that reduced weapon cooldown by 30% for all weapons as a 15 point minor we would have to balance around that. A single trait shouldn’t be holding thief balance hostage so we will steal from this trait, no pun intended, and impart the savings on to every build via base initiative regeneration.

Jon

If you are dead set on keeping the change to Opportunist in then at the very least look at what this change will do to Pistol Whip and Unload. At least lower the initiative cost of both these skills by 1 point and you’ll notice a lot less angry responses in this regard.

JonPeters.5630:

I said it in he other thread but this trait has to get hit hard because it is breaking the profession. We need to push the effectiveness of this trait into base thief functionality. If any other profession had a trait that reduced weapon cooldown by 30% for all weapons as a 15 point minor we would have to balance around that. A single trait shouldn’t be holding thief balance hostage so we will steal from this trait, no pun intended, and impart the savings on to every build via base initiative regeneration.

Jon

I am perfectly fine with this and understand the reasoning. The main reason in posting is to say thank you to the devs, I have seen more red tags on the thief forum then I have ever seen. Ever. So thank you for opening the lines of communication with this patch.

Ok Jon, I ran some more numbers and came to the conclusion that overall the initiative change is a minor buff (imo) for my D/D build. I still think it would be a nerf to builds that have more hits per second than the dagger auto attack. It’s not a definite buff exactly but for my 50% ish crit chance it’s a probable buff around 70% of the time and a nerf around 13% of the time. With fury its a buff around 60% of the time and a nerf around 22% of the time. It’s a weird change to the probability distribution that buffs the base and caps the top. I don’t want to keep taking the time to find the area under the curves (because I have to do it by hand) but I wanted to come back to say for only 2 hits a second it’s a buff (imo, at least at 70% crit chance). Whether the reduction in cap or the increase in minimum is a buff or a nerf is opinion, but at least there’s a numerical probability of the regen rate associated with it.

Still not happy about the vigor nerf. Neutral on this change. Still not happy that it’s rewarding less aggressive play but happy that it’s not in fact a nerf in disguise.