Optimal Venomshare [Raid][Critique needed]

Optimal Venomshare [Raid][Critique needed]

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Posted by: EazyPanda.6419

EazyPanda.6419

Hey guys, so I have been recently swapped out of Power into Vipers, and am currently trying to squeeze out as much DPS as I possibly can with Conditions (my guild lacks condi engies, so I volunteered to swap to condi for my raid team (Bless them allowing me to bring my thief into raids -because my engie is still lvl 46…-—)

Anyway here’s the build. I’ve tried to optimize Condition damage as much as I can with this build, a very glassy build indeed, so to optimize it further, I hope that we can get some healthy discussion going on. Note that I sill have some decent power damage.

Note that:
1) This is a full DPS build, so there are no escape skills involved. You will need to rely on your 3 dodges and other party members to survive.
2) I am still torn between the utility skills. I’m considering dropping Skale Venom or Needle Trap for Signet of Agility, for the extra dodges, which means more reliable +10% condition damage uptime as well as more survivability. However, dropping either will result in a loss of a 10k damage skill (pre-buff), so more testing will be required.
3) Toying with the idea of Runes of Aristocracy, Will ensure 100% 25 stacks might duration, but probably not worth it… right?
4) Toyed with the idea of using Improvisation, but… nahh…

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVnMJCFNhNNBuNB8PhFZCjLQ1D2BzZwQYJUbPNFCAA-TxSAQBRU9nLpEMaPAABu/Q6MHkRlfBUfQ/OEAA4EAANTOe4IAQKAYWWB-e

Reasoning behind the build:
TRAITS
Deadly Arts and Shadow arts are pretty much standard for condi-Venomshare. The +33% poison damage is just too good not to take, and obviously we need SA for venomshare.

I did not take Mug because Trapper respite is a free 8.5k damage skill, which synergises with deadly trapper, and in turn reduces the cd of Needle Trap.

I’ve found Dagger Training to be lackluster, as the poison duration is very short, and found revealed training less useful as you will rarely be using CnD, opting for DB and auto-attacks instead.

Executioner is tempting, but potent poison is much more superior.
I did not take shadow’s embrace because i do not plan on staying in stealth, and as far as i know conditions are not much of a threat and if i have a druid in my party, i can ignore conditions towards me. Concealed Defeat is eh, so I opted for Last refuge, which may give me a random free backstab.

The two venom traits are self-explanatory.

I took Dare Devil over trickery because of the 10% condi damage, extra dodge, and +7% damage. In return, I do not have boonstripping and extra 3 initiative, but I felt that the damage tradeoff and survivability increase is worth it.

GEAR
I opted for Vipers due to superior condition duration and power over Sinister gear. Here’s a build with Sinister gear, with Rune of Thorns for comparison.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVnMJCFNhNNBuNB8PhFZCjLQ1D2BzZwQYJUbPNFCAA-ThSAQBXSJI2U+FtHAQA1EIN9AMc/h+dIAsm6PA4EA4hjAApAgZZF-e

Note that despite having a minor increase in poison damage, every other condition and power based attacks fall behind Vipers.

I also opted for Viper EXOTIC trinkets instead of Sinisters. (Still waiting for ascended viper trinkets). It gives more condition damage as well as power damage compared to ascended Sinisters.
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVnMJCFNhNNBGOB8PhlWCjbRdEKCzjwV4LULAEiWAA-TRSAQBRU9nLpEEbK/i2DAQg7PEQ9B97QAAgTAgHOCAkCAmlVA-e
Replaced some of the gem-slots with charged ambrite because my poison duration is capped at 100%, any more expertise is wasted, and the extra condition damage benefits other conditions as well.

Update 5 Rune of the Nightmare + 1 black diamond is a viable (if not better) option if you are focusing solely on condition damage, but will sacrifice quite a lot of Power compared to Berserker Runes. Notably cheaper though (if you do TA regularly and have the dungeon currency lying around). But will require asc Sinister Trinkets to unleash it’s potential. (which means all achievements from LS2)
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVnMJCFNhNNBuNB8PhFZCjLQ1D2BzZwQYJUbPNFCAA-ThSAQBRU9nLpEkbWQgNlfR7BA4l9DCo+g+dIAAwJAwDHBASBAzyK-e

Any critiques are very welcome (and needed).

**I suck at using spoilers, having black text is not what I wanted…

Anet logic:
where bashing people over the head with a stick deals more damage than a stab to the heart.
-My D.A. = http://eazypanda.deviantart.com/

(edited by EazyPanda.6419)

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Posted by: rogerwilko.6895

rogerwilko.6895

Since you share poison you should try Superior Rune of Thorns & Sigil of Venom AND Dagger Training.

I would not use Trapper’s respite because I find SoM a better heal; Skelk venom heal is mediocre IMO, and 32s is a lot.

You should first test it in open pve / fractals / etc and see the damage numbers. I have. IMO the damage output of the venom share thief is too low. It has 4-5K spikes of poison ticks every 30+ seconds witch is insulting. With a condi warrior (not even talking about engi) I can sustain 10k burn ticks constantly (should I mention the warrior HP, amor and banners?). But let’s not talk about other professions.

Personally I think zerk thief is a better option for Raids; I stick with my condi setup:
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVnMJCFNhNNBuNB8PhFZCjLQ1D2BzZwQYJUbPNFCAA-ThSAQBRU9nLpEkbWQgNlfR7BA4l9DCo+g+dIAAwJAwDHBASBAzyK-e

After a lot of testing and trying Vale Guardian, I won’t take my condi thief there again. It just does not have the tools to deal enough damage compared to other professions.

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Posted by: EazyPanda.6419

EazyPanda.6419

Since you share poison you should try Superior Rune of Thorns & Sigil of Venom AND Dagger Training.

I would not use Trapper’s respite because I find SoM a better heal; Skelk venom heal is mediocre IMO, and 32s is a lot.

You should first test it in open pve / fractals / etc and see the damage numbers. I have. IMO the damage output of the venom share thief is too low. It has 4-5K spikes of poison ticks every 30+ seconds witch is insulting. With a condi warrior (not even talking about engi) I can sustain 10k burn ticks constantly (should I mention the warrior HP, amor and banners?). But let’s not talk about other professions.

Personally I think zerk thief is a better option for Raids; I stick with my condi setup:
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVnMJCFNhNNBuNB8PhFZCjLQ1D2BzZwQYJUbPNFCAA-ThSAQBRU9nLpEkbWQgNlfR7BA4l9DCo+g+dIAAwJAwDHBASBAzyK-e

After a lot of testing and trying Vale Guardian, I won’t take my condi thief there again. It just does not have the tools to deal enough damage compared to other professions.

Unfortunately, poison duration caps at 100%, which means viper stats does not really benefit from runes of thorns. Much current build already capped poison duration, with 87% bleed duration.
Dagger training gives 2 seconds of poison by default, 4 seconds with 100% poison duration. That’s an extra 700 damage at a 33% chance, compared to trappers respite which deals 8k damage (total).

Sure SoM is a decent heal, but skelk venom gives might, extra lifesteal damage, and some party support. I’d take withdraw instead if I need more healing per second.

And 4-5k poison ticks? What gear are you using? My build currently deals 10+k poison ticks easily with spider venom alone without might stacks, food and utility. (yes I tested).

Our condi damage may not be engie level, but is still pretty decent. Through calculations, I estimate one spider venom deals over 100k+ poison damage (total) when buffed with might, vulnerability, lotus training etc, which is pretty decent every 32 seconds. All this without bleeds and other skills taken into consideration.

By the way. Did you copy the wrong build link? because that build is the one I’ve posted… :P

Anet logic:
where bashing people over the head with a stick deals more damage than a stab to the heart.
-My D.A. = http://eazypanda.deviantart.com/

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Posted by: rogerwilko.6895

rogerwilko.6895

hehe possibly, but I don’t have time to fix it not, it’s 6am and I must get to the office.
I will check again in the afternoon.
something like this:
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVnMJCFNhNNBuNB8PhFZCjLQ1D2BzZwQYJUbPNFCAA-ThSAQBRU9nLpEkbWQgNlfR7BA4l9DCo+g+dIAAwJAwDHBASBAzyK-e
Interesting about the 10k poison ticks, I never got so high… I use full ascended viper :/
Maybe might stacks?… not sure what to think.

(edited by rogerwilko.6895)

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Posted by: rogerwilko.6895

rogerwilko.6895

I’m interested to see the condi ticks, so if you go to the Value guard again could you make 1-2 screenshots?
Or at random events, say Teq/fractals?

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Posted by: Amante.8109

Amante.8109

While I haven’t done the raid yet, I get the feeling that you should focus on being a breakbar interrupter if you’re going Venom Share. If your goal is simply doing damage, you’d probably be better off playing a “selfish” condition build without Shadow Arts instead (given how much that line kills your damage).

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Posted by: rogerwilko.6895

rogerwilko.6895

We had no issue with interrupts (basilik share and engi oil… boots?). We were able to duo the red one without issues.

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Posted by: EazyPanda.6419

EazyPanda.6419

I’m interested to see the condi ticks, so if you go to the Value guard again could you make 1-2 screenshots?
Or at random events, say Teq/fractals?

I’ll try when I am in a raid. Not really keen on blowing Toxic Focusing Crystals on world bosses and fractals. =P
Or maybe I’ll do it with regular Superior Focusing Crystals.

That being said, I saw this screenshot on reddit. (Credits to Auesis on reddit)
http://i.imgur.com/lR0K7i7.png
Which features a 33,291 poison tick, with just 37 stacks of poison on the target.
My guess is Sinister gear for the large numbers, with less duration.

While I haven’t done the raid yet, I get the feeling that you should focus on being a breakbar interrupter if you’re going Venom Share. If your goal is simply doing damage, you’d probably be better off playing a “selfish” condition build without Shadow Arts instead (given how much that line kills your damage).

That will kill my condition damage by 80%.

Venomshare is not merely for basilisk venom you know. =)

You should take the damage done with Spider and Skale venom into consideration.

Example
__________________________________________________________________
(Pre-buff senario)
Spider venom.
12 seconds of poison 2,103 damage, 393 life siphon damage, total damage 2496 damage.
6 applications. 5 Targets.

2,496 × 6 × 5 = 74,880 damage. 32 sec CD.


(With buffs, optimal scenario)
25 Might stacks, 25 Vulnerability on target. Havoc mastery, Lotus Training.

Spider venom.
12 seconds of poison 2,901 damage, 418 life siphon damage, total damage 3,319 damage.
3,319 x [1.25 (vulnerability) + 1.07 (Havoc Mastery) + 1.1 (lotus training)]
= 3,319 × 1.33
= 4,414 damage (Per poison stack)

6 applications. 5 Targets.

4,414 × 6 × 5 = 132,420 damage. 32 sec CD.

Roughly 11,035 Poison ticks

Too lazy to calculate skale venom, but you get the point.
________________________________________________________________
Note that this is pure calculation. I’m not sure if Havoc Mastery and Lotus Training base their modifiers on base damage, or resultant damage.

Unless you happen to find a way to be able to output an extra 100k+ condition damage without venomshare, I’d still recommend Venomshare. Bleeding attacks can still be used by venomshare.
Trickery is not going to help much with condition damage (caltrops on dodge? An extra 1k bleeding damage on a dodge over x5 venom damage?).
Neither is Critical Strikes nor Acrobatics.

Anet logic:
where bashing people over the head with a stick deals more damage than a stab to the heart.
-My D.A. = http://eazypanda.deviantart.com/

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Posted by: Nephar.3746

Nephar.3746

I can see your build is very well tinkered, and we are at a point where we are trying to min/max cause there is no room for big improvements. I can just propose something different to your attention, but warning you, that i only theorycrafted it and not tested it yet.

My point is: in my experience with condi builds i could see (different from other profession) the our condi dmg follow a “spiked” graph. We have good dmg when we use poisons utility and tend to lower dps to the next poison cycle.
Is there a chance a hybrid build could be used to maximise dps in-between? like that:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQRAoY4YnMJCFNhNNBOOB8PhjWiafoRXiyX0joI0BQIuAA-ThSAQBRU9nLpEEbK/i2DAQg7PMhDCQA1DAgTAAf0MQgjAApAgZZF-e

following a standard rotation applying all poisons, then swap weapons, CnD + backstab (revealed training), autoattack to max ini, dumping initiative on death blossom, autoattack till enough ini for a new CnD and again. This going on untill poisons off cds, swap again and burn all poisons again for a condi spike. What u think?

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Posted by: EazyPanda.6419

EazyPanda.6419

I can see your build is very well tinkered, and we are at a point where we are trying to min/max cause there is no room for big improvements. I can just propose something different to your attention, but warning you, that i only theorycrafted it and not tested it yet.

My point is: in my experience with condi builds i could see (different from other profession) the our condi dmg follow a “spiked” graph. We have good dmg when we use poisons utility and tend to lower dps to the next poison cycle.
Is there a chance a hybrid build could be used to maximize dps in-between? like that:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQRAoY4YnMJCFNhNNBOOB8PhjWiafoRXiyX0joI0BQIuAA-ThSAQBRU9nLpEEbK/i2DAQg7PMhDCQA1DAgTAAf0MQgjAApAgZZF-e

following a standard rotation applying all poisons, then swap weapons, CnD + backstab (revealed training), autoattack to max ini, dumping initiative on death blossom, autoattack till enough ini for a new CnD and again. This going on untill poisons off cds, swap again and burn all poisons again for a condi spike. What u think?

Interesting, taking advantage of the fact that since we have both power and precision, we can also do decent power damage, taking advantage of the fact that we are using a hybrid gear.
Perhaps I was too focused on condition damage, losing sight of the Power and Precision we have.

Critical Strikes will almost definitely increase our power DPS, but we’ll need to test out these things to really compare the two builds:

1) Is 67% crit chance + 162% (172% when target is above 50%) Crit damage worth sacrificing +7% damage +10% Condition damage, and and extra dodge (which may deal and extra 3k damage per dodge)?

2) Which deals more DPS, 2 CnD + backstab, or 3 death blossoms? We have to find out which skill deals higher damage per initiative. If one deals more damage over the other, I don’t think it’ll be a good idea to use both in a rotation. It’s all about getting the best value for your money (or in this case, initiative).
Sigh This would be a lot simpler if we were any other class with normal cooldowns instead of initiative, but this is why be play the class

note Using DB + Lotus dodge (Whirl finisher) in poison fields (Sb 4), or better yet, Fire fields, gives Poison bolts and Burning Bolts respectively, which can be a slight increase in our DPS.

3) Dagger auto-attacks regenerate endurance, which can be used to apply bleeds and torment if we are using DD dodges (around 3k damage). Will the higher power, crit-chance, and crit damage from CS out-damage the potential damage from dodges on top of the weaker auto-attack?

Assassin’s Signet i feel might not be optimal though. Needle trap deals 10k+ condi damage on it’s own every 24 seconds, while the power gained from AS is not very high, and is still subject to 67% crit chance.

Anet logic:
where bashing people over the head with a stick deals more damage than a stab to the heart.
-My D.A. = http://eazypanda.deviantart.com/

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Posted by: Nephar.3746

Nephar.3746

Remember the 250 ferocity bonus u get from grandmaster while fury’s up. would be 16,66 more critical dmg. Flawless Strike can compensate the 7% from havoc mastery if u can keep health up.
I dont think havoc mastery increase damage from condition, i believe it was designed to increase phisical dmg from a power staff daredevil. I can be wrong but generally when it’s not specified in description “damage” relates to direct damage.

(edited by Nephar.3746)

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Posted by: EazyPanda.6419

EazyPanda.6419

Remember the 250 ferocity bonus u get from grandmaster while fury’s up. would be 16,66 more critical dmg. Flawless Strike can compensate the 7% from havoc mastery if u can keep health up.
I dont think havoc mastery increase damage from condition, i believe it was designed to increase phisical dmg from a power staff daredevil. I can be wrong but generally when it’s not specified in description “damage” relates to direct damage.

Yeah I listed the extra crit damage in the prev post.
The main thing is the 10% condition damage increase. We deal a ton of condition damage, and that 10% is huge.

Yes, testing is required.. something i have not done yet :P
I’ll test it out when i have the time to, and if i did not forget.

Anet logic:
where bashing people over the head with a stick deals more damage than a stab to the heart.
-My D.A. = http://eazypanda.deviantart.com/

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Posted by: Auesis.7301

Auesis.7301

Thanks for sharing my screenshot

One thing I should point out is that Potent Poison does in fact stack with 100% condition duration. With Spider Venom at 6s base poison up to 12s with 100% base duration increase, Potent Poison will then bump it up to 16s, which is pretty much exactly a 33% increase.

In raids I have been putting myself in the group with the Chronomancer. Alacrity can bring your Venom cooldown to an effective 19s, meaning that you would only lose 3s of Poison uptime.

That being said, I’m still tuning. While that is ideal, the Chronomancer cannot always be supplying Alacrity 24/7, so I’m considering adding more Viper pieces (I currently use chest, legs and daggers while everything else is Sinister) then swapping in and out some sigils to get more Bleed duration. Currently with food, Malice + the Viper pieces it’s still 55% so not terrible. It’s a tough call to make.

Gnome Child [Gc]
Resident Thief

(edited by Auesis.7301)

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Posted by: EazyPanda.6419

EazyPanda.6419

Thanks for sharing my screenshot

One thing I should point out is that Potent Poison does in fact stack with 100% condition duration. With Spider Venom at 6s base poison up to 12s with 100% base duration increase, Potent Poison will then bump it up to 16s, which is pretty much exactly a 33% increase.

Well, it is an impressive Screenshot after all. xD

And if Potent poison stacks with 100% condi duration, that will be really big. :O
Ascended Viper Trinkets, maybe Runes of the Nigtmare / Runes of Thorns maybe?

Back to build-making~

Anet logic:
where bashing people over the head with a stick deals more damage than a stab to the heart.
-My D.A. = http://eazypanda.deviantart.com/

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Posted by: Auesis.7301

Auesis.7301

I already hit 100% Poison duration with Rune of Thorns, Viper Chest + Legs + Daggers (Ascended) + Food + Toxic + Sigil of Malice, which puts Poison at 133% and Bleed/Torment at 55%. Pretty sure it’s the best spread I can get, especially with that amazing 250-300 condition damage buff from Rune of Thorns.

Gnome Child [Gc]
Resident Thief

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Posted by: Swiftwynd.1685

Swiftwynd.1685

To save you all some time and money, NO poison will stack over the 100% increase, even with the trait.

The tooltips are bugged. I just tested it in PVP: Should have been a 21 second poison on Impairing Daggers, but only lasted for 16 seconds, which is double its base value at 100% increase.

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Posted by: Auesis.7301

Auesis.7301

Yup, this is unfortunately the case It’s a bit of pressure off of the duration spreads, though. Now I have 100% of both Poison and Bleed without too much sacrifice in to Viper.

Current setup is now Rune of Krait, Sigil of Venom + Malice (to max bleed and get some more Torment and Burn/Confusion from finishers), Viper’s Head/Chest/Legs/Daggers, Sinister everything else.

Gnome Child [Gc]
Resident Thief

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Posted by: Taobella.6597

Taobella.6597

why do you run superior sigil of agility ? an not a superior sigil of corruption?

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Posted by: EazyPanda.6419

EazyPanda.6419

why do you run superior sigil of agility ? an not a superior sigil of corruption?

Because using a stacking sigil in a raid is kind of useless.
It may be useful if you plan on using it in an open world or fractals tho
I use Agility for the short burst of quickness and swiftness if it is needed, like to get into the green circle of the Vale guardian.
Of course, feel free to use any other sigil on sb.

Anet logic:
where bashing people over the head with a stick deals more damage than a stab to the heart.
-My D.A. = http://eazypanda.deviantart.com/

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Posted by: Taobella.6597

Taobella.6597

Ah i see i have not tried raiding myself yet just seem abit strange in build is all

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Posted by: Nephar.3746

Nephar.3746

Thanks for sharing my screenshot

Auesis i dont get how do u reach 33k poison dot in that screenshot.
Does the multiplier from defiance bar breaking applies to condi dmg in bloomhunger? Is 37 stack all yours? I see the 25 weakness stcks and 18 might but i still dont understand

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Posted by: bliss.4305

bliss.4305

Yup, this is unfortunately the case It’s a bit of pressure off of the duration spreads, though. Now I have 100% of both Poison and Bleed without too much sacrifice in to Viper.

Current setup is now Rune of Krait, Sigil of Venom + Malice (to max bleed and get some more Torment and Burn/Confusion from finishers), Viper’s Head/Chest/Legs/Daggers, Sinister everything else.

Hi,

I’m also recently specced into Venomshare as power based thieves don’t look like it will make it in the roster for raids. I have to say, condi works great for PvE and I’m having fun with it.

I also tested the bleed and poison difference and realized how high poison damage ticks with Deadly Arts traits. So I grabbed 6 Rune of Thorns and had exactly the same numbers as your old build. I was also getting 20k ticks in 5-man fractals with self buffs etc easily during spreads but I’ve noticed how low the bleed was ticking and how fast the stacks for disappearing.

Have you noticed your damage increase when you swapped to Krait? Obviously, with Thorns it was an overkill duration on Poison, but I really like the potential of that 6th set bonus (a possibility to get 100-150 condition damage easily in a raid setup)… and it was around 12g investment… Feels heartbroken swapping it for Krait set which adds up to 10 silver of investment xD

Anyway, should I also swap my runes to Krait? Did you see a damage increase after doing so?