Guild Wars 2

I am making this thread to try and organize a lot of the suggestions made to counter any Backstab/Glass Cannon nerf, even though a lot of these suggestions should be put into effect anyway without any corresponding nerf.

This is organized to make it more of an understandable and enjoyable read for devs and community managers/liaisons. Please vote on which sections as well as the subsections of which changes you think would be the best fit to make live. Example: I vote 1a and 1b and 2c. I will update the OP next to each subsection include the amount of votes.

1. PISTOL

2. SHORTBOW

3. SWORD

4. VENOMS

5. DAGGERS

6. Misc

Enjoy.

Pistol Whip dual ability with offhand pistol. Remove the self root from pistol whip. Change the stun to a 1/2s Daze and have it grant 3s of aegis on the first sword hit (to symbolize a reposite) . Reduce the attacks to 2 after the initial daze hit, @50% of the total damage of the current 5 attack version, remove the evade frames and keep the same initiative cost. This now changes S/P To the “Control Tank” synergizing weapon set

Wait, cut the damage of the already-nerfed pistol whip by 50%? This would completely solidify autoattack as the set’s only viable damage skill… Pistol Whip already does less than it. Can’t say I’m behind that one.

I am sorry, but without a solid reasoning behind every suggestion it is not valid.
Most suggestion are either grossly overpowering or ridiculously downcutting.
I’ll agree with just ricochet

i like your idea about pistol, they do need a buff maybe i’ll vote for 1b and 1c/d

i wouldn’t agree SB infiltrator arrow to cost only 3 ini, thieves would be untouchable with this thing..

@bwillb The point is to turn s/p into the control+tank set. The daze is still very powerful, and it will be a much faster attack @ 2 hits, also no longer self rooting. I also meant 9 hits rather then 5. So if 2 hits hit for 513 base damage when now 9 hit for 1026 damage, it is actually a buff (EX: If you used 10 initiative on 2 of the new versions of PW you could reach the same damage then 1 of the current pistol whips, in the same time frame as 1 pistol whip. Aegis is not as powerful as a complete evade frame covering the length of the ability but it makes sense as a reposite stand-point people have been asking for. I see this as a buff and big QoL change for S/P, if you really think otherwise, I could also put an initiative cost reduction in the suggestion.

@Ichishi No reasoning required as most of these suggestions were taken from other threads and posts and from posters other then myself. The only ones I can take credit for is the Venom changes and the Steal->Knockdown trait, which also got quite a bit of positive feedback. The PW and Flanking strike changes were my room-mates. Other then that every change was from someone else.

@Ranzou They are still being forced to waste initiative on IA to reach a maximum mobility potential, which is draining the same lifeblood they need for most/all (depending on build) of their damage. Also this maximum potential I speak of is all that crosses the line to actually set thief mobility above (even slightly) a multitude of other classes potential. If it were up to me I would get rid of all movement based weapon abilities for thief and just add in that they shouldnt have a movement speed reduction in combat, and have a base movement speed increase granted at character creation.

5. Daggers → B

so i can stealth whenever i want? Man this would cause so many whine threads

Shizzlenit.7648:

5. Daggers -> B

so i can stealth whenever i want? Man this would cause so many whine threads

Still costs the initiative and no longer does damage, CnD currently can crit for 5-6k yaa’know. Seems fair and is the reduction for the backstab “combo” damage

1a – some want to rain lead into enemies, not make them bleed
1b – body shot needs rework. As it is it does not work even with 1a
1c – 50% is bit too much for bouncing twice but idea is viable
1d – opness. My build can unload over 25 bullets in 4 seconds. With piercing is way overboard
1e – 900 range is fine on pistols. Consider rifle/shortbow instead
1f – cripple without limitation? Not in this game, will never happen. Moving flanking strikes improves glass cannon ability to do damage even more.
2 – shortbow is the most balanced weapon set for thief. More range, more attacks, more shadowsteps will make it too strong. It is already a must-have for any thief.
3a – sword auto powerful enough. Maybe a little fix for 3rd strike animation for obvious are of effect (stab that hits 180 degrees?)
3b – permavigor in combat is aegis every 3 seconds. Too strong. Sword is powerful enough.
3c – pistol whip had perfect benefit/tradeoff and risk/reward balance, but was cut heavily in damage. Just rolling back the nerf is fine.
3d – fixing pathing to have a guaranteed second hit on non-eveding target is all that is needed.
4a – spider/skale/drake venoms as they are moved to f2-f3-f4. Using one forces 10s cd on others. Devourer remains utility.
4c – yes, + priority to party members
5a – death blossom is strong enough
5b – no cd stealth on demand is op even without damage. Currently, solely the cnd hit req separates people who can counter backstab combo and those who cannot.
6a – daze is a COUNTER. counters should not be randomly thrown around for no reason. Every counter must be on demand
6b – traits need complete or at least significant overhaul. Adressing just one is useless.

Ichishi.9613:

I am sorry, but without a solid reasoning behind every suggestion it is not valid.
Most suggestion are either grossly overpowering or ridiculously downcutting.
I’ll agree with just ricochet

This. I think suggestions should be the product of a successful discussion on the faults of the weapon in question, not something pulled out of thin air.

My critiques
Pistol
A: I’m against large-scale “streamlining” of weapon sets to specific builds. Pistol has issues, but they should be solved by making it a malleable and viable weapon set, not building it to be a no-brainer choice for a specific stat combo. Definitely in favor of more condition flavors like burning though.
B: Body Shot absolutely needs help. Vital Shot isn’t a bad ability compared to other auto attacks, but the fact that it takes up the unique auto attack slot while conditions aren’t always viable severely limits the build. I’d like to see it stack might or something that would be powerful but beneficial to a variety of setups.
C/D: Pistols need AE, but Ricochet may not be the best solution, the bounced attacks can have undesirable consequences in PvE. I’d favor pistols getting a small on-target AE (explosion) or a piercing attack instead, these would provide multi-target capability that is predictable.
E: This is a pretty huge change to be suddenly given out in one single trait.
F: Ankle Shots needs help for sure, pretty good solution

Shortbow
A: In general shortbow is pretty awesome as-is, and I wouldn’t really consider this change a necessity in a purely mechanical sense. This would, however, make shortbow “feel” less clunky and generally be way more fun to play. Perhaps a scaling down of damage in return for the increased attack speed would be in order. It’d make the weapon more dynamic and fun without being a large power increase or a nerf.
B: See the pistol suggestion.
C: This is a suggestion that takes a multipurpose ability that is generally pretty good and tries to streamline it for a specific purpose. As cool as it would be and despite the fact that most thieves only use this ability for a movement, builds should be based around dynamic and interesting abilities, not the other way around.

Sword
A: I get that people feel that sword is “clunky” and slow, but it isn’t really hurting for damage. While 10 % doesn’t seem gamebreaking it isn’t necessarily needed. I’m in support of it if you’re arguing it on a basis of being more comparable to, say, warrior AE melee options. If that is the issue you’re trying to address I’d rather see a 10 % raw power increase than a speed increase in order to preserve the attack speed difference and feel between sword and dagger auto attacks.
B: Seems innocuous, but this would be a huge boost to some synergies. Even for the average thief this would be a pretty massive survivability increase. Maybe something like 2-3s would be more reasonable. I think I understand what you’re trying to address with this though, as the entirety of what makes sword auto attack good is loaded onto the 3rd strike (big damage, and two conditions). Moving weakness to the second strike in the chain could address part of this.
C: S/D already fills the “control tank” role better. PW isn’t bad as-is, honestly, but it’d be nice to see the damage boosted slightly since S/P currently lacks a damage initiative dump. That said, I really like the idea of Aegis on a sword set somewhere, definitely a big candidate if we ever get sword offhand. Overall, though, a good suggestion with a good amount of synergistic possibilities, this is what we should be aiming for in ability revamps.
D: One of the better suggestions I’ve seen for Flanking Strike. Adding yet another instant-closer shadowstep to S/D is a bit much though. My suggestion would be to make the initial closer a 300m dash-style attack. Fast, but dodgeable. The second hit would remain a shadowstep. This makes Flanking Strike less of a spammable closing style ability and more of an aimed skill-shot at a range while still being near-instant in melee combat.

Venoms:
A: Venoms need help, but thieves already have a decent, if somewhat flawed, class mechanic. Basically providing 3 more utility-strength skills to every single thief with no downside would break the game. An engineer-style kit might be a more viable solution, providing a suite of venoms to use at the cost of one utility skill.
C: Agreed, this is a group support utility skill, there’s no real reason for it to have such a small range.

Daggers:
A: Pretty cool idea, but 735 base damage is a lot. My suggestion would be something more along the lines of a trait that makes “dual skills do 1.5 % more damage per stack of bleeding on the target”. Still powerful, but offers more synergy and helps counteract the pain of max bleeding stacks on your target.
B: A pretty big rework of C&D intended, I presume, to support perma-stealth builds and nerf the backstab combo. The former doesn’t really need to be encouraged and this is a poor way to do the latter. Vulnerability is, in general, not very strong.

Misc
A: I’m not a fan of Critical Haste as-is mostly due to the unreliability and lack of synergy. This “solution” doesn’t do much to help though. Daze is best utilized as a reactionary interrupt, randomly having it go off isn’t going to be helpful. Some sort of counter-based system might be more easy to manipulate with skill. Say something along the lines of “critical hit builds a counter, at 10 counters X effect happens”.
B: Yup, Assassin’s Retreat needs to go, “when you kill a foe” as a trait is lame in general. Not sure if a steal knockdown would be a good replacement, reminds me a lot of daze on steal. Quick Pockets, TBH, should be the 15-point Acrobatics passive, 15 point passive gets bumped to 5 point passive, and 2s swiftness should be added to Power of Inertia.

Those venom suggestions… Have you EVER used venoms? No seriously, have you? Because to make these suggestions implies you have noooooooooooooooo idea how venoms work or how they balance.

For crying out loud people understand something before you want to change it! I’m so tired of reading threads like this that have no depth to them, or reasoning to why it would even be remotely worthwhile to change. I disagree with all them because of this.

Here are some of mine:

1. One change to pistol main hand, make Vital Shot cripple in addition to its vulnerability. While aoe would be nice, I don’t really feel it’s necessary (it’s meant to fill a role similar to the warrior’s rifle).

2. One change to pistol off hand – Give Black Powder a short stealth field. This would allow dual-pistols access to stealth for the MH Pistol’s great sneak attack and consequently, along with #1 dramatically improve the set.

3. Stealth rendering needs to be fixed, and stealth duration should be increased to a base of 4 seconds from 3, which will make a big difference in its PvE usability.

4. Make some usability improvements to traps and venoms. Traps just need a bit of generalized buffing, but I can’t help but feel there’s a better way to implement Venoms than the current version. Basilisk is needlessly terrible for an Elite.

5. Keep Haste, but nerf quickness to be a 50% speed buff instead of a 100% speed buff, the latter was an extremely poor judgment call.

6. Make our Downed #1 skill cause bleeding instead of crippling, so that we can get a halfway decent chance for a rally in PvE.

7. Add a Marksman trait that improves range on pistols and shortbow to 1000 ft. 1200 ft is too much.

8. Fix the pathing on Flaking Strike, otherwise it’s a good skill.

9. MAKE SINGLE-WIELDING VIABLE!!!!! Sorry, I couldn’t help but emphasize that because it’s currently such a waste. Apart from the fact that we have a small range of weapon skills already and 3 of them are completely useless, I would just like to play a single sword or dagger wielding thief for crying out loud.

10. Give us at least one more weapon option, I don’t even care what it is.

11. Give us some better support build options.

The C&D change sounds absolutely horrible IMO, takes one of the only things that actually takes effort in our profession to land and makes it give stealth no matter what. And it does awesome damage on crits, I would hate to have that taken away as well. Let’s not make the class even more boring as it is.

Everything else is sound.

Einlanzer.1627:

9. MAKE SINGLE-WIELDING VIABLE!!!!! Sorry, I couldn’t help but emphasize that because it’s currently such a waste. Apart from the fact that we have a small range of weapon skills already and 3 of them are completely useless, I would just like to play a single sword or dagger wielding thief for crying out loud.

Best solution for this is focus/warhorn offhand that doesn’t really have any flavorful attacks of its own. Only getting one weapon’s stats is not something GW2 is balanced or built for.

Optionally, remove the single-weapon #3 skills thieves have now so people stop thinking it’ll ever be viable because one of them is kinda cool.

Sword C doesn’t make sense. Changing the stun to a daze, reducing it’s damage and giving aegis instead of evade? Give it range, take away the aegis and call it headshot.

Damage was already reduced with no compensation, remove the root, pistol whip fixed.

I think autoattack of pistol should be fast as shortbow of rangers. Only that and we can finally use pistol in main-hand without boring duel.

bwillb.2165:

Pistol Whip dual ability with offhand pistol. Remove the self root from pistol whip. Change the stun to a 1/2s Daze and have it grant 3s of aegis on the first sword hit (to symbolize a reposite) . Reduce the attacks to 2 after the initial daze hit, @50% of the total damage of the current 5 attack version, remove the evade frames and keep the same initiative cost. This now changes S/P To the “Control Tank” synergizing weapon set

Wait, cut the damage of the already-nerfed pistol whip by 50%? This would completely solidify autoattack as the set’s only viable damage skill… Pistol Whip already does less than it. Can’t say I’m behind that one.

Which processes in less then half the time. It’s viable but not for a major initiative cost.
As is S/P is already the undisputed tanking weapon set for thieves, making this skill change uneeded. Just revert the damage nerf (or remove the root) to PW and maybe buff #5 by granting 2-3 seconds of stealth.