Guild Wars 2

I just came back from HoT. Prior to that I used to always run P/D/D/P and it was dominant for me. My question is, because to me that was definitely the top condi and overall one of the best specs besides S/D/D/P to use, is that still a viable build or has changes ruined it?

And if so….

What is the dominant condi AND power spec right now to run in sPvP. I’m looking for that underground spec that most people don’t know is dominant. I understand how most of you do not want to give it out, that being said feel free to PM it to me and I’ll make sure your taken care of for doing it. Dead cereal.

My question if its condi is how is that dominant over the old P/D/D/P spec?

And if power how is that dominant over S/D/D/P ?

I’m going to assume right now that the truely viable specs DO NOT run Daredevil. Can you explain why?

I cannot assume for one second that D/P/SB is the top spec, nor is Inf Invul DB condi. There is just no way. I AM testing them myself so honestly even if you have good advice that could help other returning thieves like myself who are wondering the same thing. Smart, INTELLIGENT feedback based on experience from truely good arena thieves is definitely appreciated. Thank you brothers of shadow.

In sPvp D/P and SB are dominant it provides the Thief with everything it needs, SB gives you the Mobility to outpace and rotate faster than any other weapon set and class, and D/P gives you burst, blind and Stealth all needed to help Thieves survive. Thieves are relegated to Decap and +1 we no longer are meant to 1v1 and Anet has stated such in streams.

If you choose a weapon set not having SB you will reduce your mobility greatly, in lower tiers you can play without SB but it will hinder your performance and contribution in higher tier play.

Right now for Condi D/D is the most Viable Condi set with SB alternate set, SB giving decent Aoe range Condi pressure on point and giving you mobility, P/D is showing to be pretty viable but is a little more punishing for Condi, but gives good kiting advantage.

You can use Staff as a viable Power option that is pretty gimmicky with Vault spam or can be used intelligently by leveraging the other skills which provide range blinds projectile reflects and so on with evades.

So D/D condi and D/P power BOTH with OH SB are the best right now as well as staff? How is D/D more viable that P/D condi?

P/D condi has the STRONGEST burst available in terms of condi. RkittenS>Steal>SS>BP>RF and repeat gives Bleeds, Poison, Torment AND Confusion with the correct sigils and runes. My question is has the damage/survivability of that P/D set hindered since HoT? Assume were using full Dire.

Rocky.8195:

So D/D condi and D/P power BOTH with OH SB are the best right now as well as staff? How is D/D more viable that P/D condi?

P/D condi has the STRONGEST burst available in terms of condi. RkittenS>Steal>SS>BP>RF and repeat gives Bleeds, Poison, Torment AND Confusion with the correct sigils and runes. My question is has the damage/survivability of that P/D set hindered since HoT? Assume were using full Dire.

D/D provides easier gameplay and high survivability by either Timing Dodges with Lotus Training and Death Blossom or how beginner players use it and spam dodges and Death Blossom, they have a high evade uptime and depending on how it’s built Condis won’t stick to the thief. It is very effective for the very low Skill floor with High Survivability compared to P/D and the SB is the master of OOC mobility which the Thief needs to be relevant in the current conquest Meta.

The main D/D condi builds you will see are DA/TRI/DD or Acr/Tri/DD both can provide some bursty conditions the DA variant is more so while the Acro variant provides very solid survivability

See my signature for a viable P/D build using offhand SB for mobility.

EDIT:

Personally, P/D is the strongest condi set for thieves. D/D is just overly visible and screams “target me.” Very effective against some builds/classes but it lacks the ranged pressure that I think is necessary or at least extremely helpful in winning fights. P/D retains ranged pressure and has the ability using Pistol 3 to kite melee only opponents. That alone makes it a superior choice to D/D.

So P/D is still supreme for high skill thieves? If so, good. Now for power, S/D the best for high skill or is it kitten resulting in my migration to the incredibly low skill D/P?

I don’t use SB. I’m a high skill thief, therefore I figure the top condi spec is P/D and power is S/D just like the good old days? Serious inquiries only.

I find P/d superior to D/D DB for condition builds. Now it harder to use then d/d and d/d can pump out more conditions on an ongoing basis, but p/d is more flexible, allows more outs and allows you to react better to an opposing build.

D/d DB can be very effective against average players but is overeliant on the DB and its evade. Once that DB spam is stopped, there few other options. It unlikley you can CnD for stealth as you used your INI on DBS, the AA only has that poison on one strike and very dangerous to use at melee, and the cripple and heartseeker do little for you.

You can resort to mixing in dodges for impaling lotus but that hardly unique to that weaponset.

Added to that when facing a DB d/d condi build on a P/d build you can generally tear them apart. The DB only works at melee so what you do is time your shots, get an immob in off pistol 2 and his spam stops. Use this opportunity to spike conditions (or if he has some form of break let him use it and just repeat) and then backpedal stealth and move out of his range. You can stop attacking then and watch your conditions tick.

Saerni uses P/d with DD in it I believe. I use Core.

In p/d core build, SB off hand is a must as you need mobility. If D/D DB traited for UC you might get away without SB off hand but that quite a kick to your only other source of spammable Condition damage and will weaken your build. P/d with DD traited and UC selected can offer adequate mobility if you really do not want SB as off hand.

Acro can be considered as a traitline in P/D but given P/D relies more on stealths then active evades it does not synergize as well with p/d as it does with d/d.

Rocky.8195:

So P/D is still supreme for high skill thieves? If so, good. Now for power, S/D the best for high skill or is it kitten resulting in my migration to the incredibly low skill D/P?

I don’t use SB. I’m a high skill thief, therefore I figure the top condi spec is P/D and power is S/D just like the good old days? Serious inquiries only.

In higher tiers of sPvP S/D does not work well due to not being able to pressure out pressure the sustain builds, it limits most of your damage mitigation, now it does really well against less skilled players, currently D/P provides the most tools that work most effectively in sPvP, now in WvW S/D stills does pretty well currently I run both D/P and S/D which gives me all the tools I need to pressure all the classes besides the troll Bunker druid running around WvW.

Yea honestly D/P S/D HAS to be the meta for power thieves.

And do we all agree that P/D D/P is the meta for condi as oppose to D/D SB? Because I would merk the brains off any D/D SB or anything that has SB as OH with a P/D D/P build I guarenteed it that is a promise. It isn’t about how many bleeds you stack, its how many different types of conditions you can apply and P/D applies the most. I have no idea why you guys use SB in arenas over ANY other OH. Seriously? that’s INSANEEEE.

Would P/D D/P still benefit most off running a non daredevil build? or is every thief incorporating daredevil in their specs now because I can only see it useful for the lame D/D SB condi and D/P SB power specs.

Is it true that the REAL meta specs AKA P/D D/P and S/D/D/P are best left WITHOUT daredevil? and remain with their kin of ole? Thoughts please. This is real thief chat. Welcome to the xander zone.

Rocky.8195:

Yea honestly D/P S/D HAS to be the meta for power thieves.

And do we all agree that P/D D/P is the meta for condi as oppose to D/D SB? Because I would merk the brains off any D/D SB or anything that has SB as OH with a P/D D/P build I guarenteed it that is a promise. It isn’t about how many bleeds you stack, its how many different types of conditions you can apply and P/D applies the most. I have no idea why you guys use SB in arenas over ANY other OH. Seriously? that’s INSANEEEE.

Would P/D D/P still benefit most off running a non daredevil build? or is every thief incorporating daredevil in their specs now because I can only see it useful for the lame D/D SB condi and D/P SB power specs.

Is it true that the REAL meta specs AKA P/D D/P and S/D/D/P are best left WITHOUT daredevil? and remain with their kin of ole? Thoughts please. This is real thief chat. Welcome to the xander zone.

One S/D is not Meta especially in sPvP it is overshadowed by D/P, it cannot provide near enough pressure since Thief is kitten in sPvP due to scaling of stats. It is a nice fun to play weaponset that is all. In WvW S/D is a viable weaponset by its self.

D/D is the Meta condi build because of the low risk high reward playstyle it provides, even if the bleeds and poisons get cleansed they are instantly reapplied and mixed with all the evades it offers it is a very forgiving build that can contest a point.

P/D Is very good but is not as rewarding for the game mode compared to D/D.

SB is indispensable in sPvP since Thief’s only role is decap/+1 SB is what gives Thief best mobility in Game, without it Mesmer and Druid outpace Thief in mobility for decapping.
In WvW you can get away without having SB but you will lack some mobility but not too much if you build your Utilities right.

Right now the Meta in WvW and sPvP for power is D/P and SB
Meta for condi is D/D and SB

Now in WvW Thief can use almost all weapons to great extent due to having proper scaling of stats and so on.

Right now Daredevil is almost always an auto include in most builds the only outliers are P/P where Da/Tri/Cs performs better burst running assassins /Mara mix. Or if you feel like running old D/P Meta build Da/Tri/Sa which still does surprising well it has less survivability and damage though of the DA/Tri/DD

Escapist’s Absolution is incredibly useful for most thief specs. That combined with Unhindered Combatant makes Daredevil a winning combination in a lot of builds.

First, unhindered removed cripple, immobilize, chill and then EA removes an additional condition on top of that. This makes the thief more survivable.

I disagree that D/P is a better second set choice, in part because I use SB to chase and escape when large numbers are trying to kill me. SB is also faster at clearing camps by stacking poison fields and cluster bombs. That and caltrops will kill all of the camp guards really fast.

I’d say that D/P might be a reasonable second choice for some builds, but only in a 1v1 situation. These days it is hard to find 1v1. Often it is at least 2v1 or 3v1 for roamers. If 10+ people show up, a shadowstep and a few SB teleports will make you a lot safer than stealth from D/P imo.

saerni.2584:

Escapist’s Absolution is incredibly useful for most thief specs. That combined with Unhindered Combatant makes Daredevil a winning combination in a lot of builds.

First, unhindered removed cripple, immobilize, chill and then EA removes an additional condition on top of that. This makes the thief more survivable.

I disagree that D/P is a better second set choice, in part because I use SB to chase and escape when large numbers are trying to kill me. SB is also faster at clearing camps by stacking poison fields and cluster bombs. That and caltrops will kill all of the camp guards really fast.

I’d say that D/P might be a reasonable second choice for some builds, but only in a 1v1 situation. These days it is hard to find 1v1. Often it is at least 2v1 or 3v1 for roamers. If 10+ people show up, a shadowstep and a few SB teleports will make you a lot safer than stealth from D/P imo.

Yes, not having SB does hinder in some case but using D/P as an offset fills in gaps S/D has and with S/D I can chase without being stuck with SB subpar damage and disengage relatively as easily, mix with Stealth from D/P once I have decent distance from enemy zergs.
But I have to rely on my utilities to disengage more so with my setup.

That’s crazy that your all saying that because I personally still find having a D/P for OH is a better weapon set except for a D/D condi because the poison field AOE. With D/D despite reapplying condi’s faster you lose alot of defense and mobility AND the variety of conditions you can apply. Yes you won’t stack as much bleeds but imo having less bleeds and more torment/confusion outweighs the deficit.

Can you guys explain why in pre-HoT P/D D/P was much more effective than D/D/D/P but since release it now is not? Somebody who has experience with both weapon sets please explain to me the difference then and now and same question goes with as to why S/D/D/P is a weaker weaponset than D/P/SB. What has changed that gimps the previous lay-low metas that existed for both sPvP AND WvE causing these new so-called meta sets better than their predecessors.

Thank you so much for the information so far though I just need specifics, what exactly has changed? Healing in stealth isn’t viable anymore? Is Dire gear not as effective? Does S/D shadowsteps have a cooldown now or something?

S/D’s ability to chase targets was removed, and it lacks meaningful damage in sPvP due to the nature of how the thief gets all of its damage from % modifiers. Since the stats in sPvP are inherently lower than WvW, this means % modifiers are less effective than + fixed stat bonuses, and since S/D lacks meaningful pressure and has high initiative costs in general, it’s not able to get in and burst or CC a target well, since it lacks the stats for the former in most cases and the kit doesn’t provide much in the other department, since Tac Strike depends on CnD which is too unreliable in the current game.

For sPvP, shortbow is pretty much a requirement. For WvW, whatever you find yourself wanting works in most cases. There are always going to be moments where you wish you had a different weapon as your alternate, but that’s just the nature of the game.

Rocky.8195:

That’s crazy that your all saying that because I personally still find having a D/P for OH is a better weapon set except for a D/D condi because the poison field AOE. With D/D despite reapplying condi’s faster you lose alot of defense and mobility AND the variety of conditions you can apply. Yes you won’t stack as much bleeds but imo having less bleeds and more torment/confusion outweighs the deficit.

Can you guys explain why in pre-HoT P/D D/P was much more effective than D/D/D/P but since release it now is not? Somebody who has experience with both weapon sets please explain to me the difference then and now and same question goes with as to why S/D/D/P is a weaker weaponset than D/P/SB. What has changed that gimps the previous lay-low metas that existed for both sPvP AND WvE causing these new so-called meta sets better than their predecessors.

Thank you so much for the information so far though I just need specifics, what exactly has changed? Healing in stealth isn’t viable anymore? Is Dire gear not as effective? Does S/D shadowsteps have a cooldown now or something?

What has changed is with the powercreep over the years Thief is barely hanging on the only thing they bring now is mobility and nothing else, they no longer can 1v1 similar skilled opponents other than Thieves, other classes have great mobility now that without SB thieves won’t be able to compete at decapping and out rotating the opponent. The D/P SB Meta is due to Thief only being able to +1 fights and Decap it gives the best tools for the job, if you don’t run them you will kitten your team.

S/D hasn’t been Meta since they nerfed it to the ground back in 2013, in WvW S/D still is a viable weapon set.

Rocky, you keep referencing P/D D/P as the best condi set, which has never been the case. For one, D/P is a power set. Also, SB has been the supreme alternate weapon for ages thanks to the mobility it affords you. There is usually no reason to run a different alternate set because of the initiative mechanic. Other classes swap because of cooldowns, but we have none. If you use P/D for condi, you just stay in that set. There are occasions when you may use something other than SB (you may try P/D+D/D or D/P+Staff for example), but SB is meta and has always been.

Zodryn.4216:

Rocky, you keep referencing P/D D/P as the best condi set, which has never been the case. For one, D/P is a power set.

Oh, I beg to differ.

Might not be the best, but D/P is functional on every build for all types of damage/defense.

Rocky.8195:

That’s crazy that your all saying that because I personally still find having a D/P for OH is a better weapon set except for a D/D condi because the poison field AOE. With D/D despite reapplying condi’s faster you lose alot of defense and mobility AND the variety of conditions you can apply. Yes you won’t stack as much bleeds but imo having less bleeds and more torment/confusion outweighs the deficit.

Can you guys explain why in pre-HoT P/D D/P was much more effective than D/D/D/P but since release it now is not? Somebody who has experience with both weapon sets please explain to me the difference then and now and same question goes with as to why S/D/D/P is a weaker weaponset than D/P/SB. What has changed that gimps the previous lay-low metas that existed for both sPvP AND WvE causing these new so-called meta sets better than their predecessors.

Thank you so much for the information so far though I just need specifics, what exactly has changed? Healing in stealth isn’t viable anymore? Is Dire gear not as effective? Does S/D shadowsteps have a cooldown now or something?

Where do you lose out in the variety of conditions applied?

P/d applies two damaging condition types. Torment and Bleeds.

d/d applies two damaging conditions . Bleed and Poison.

Granted the number of stacks of poison in d/d is not as many as stacks of torment off p/d but total bleed stacks will be higher from d/d and for a theif poison>torment.

For off hand sets d/p applies no added conditions but blind. It has the same poison as d/d.

Sb has a blind. It also has AOE poison with a field and AOE bleed.

There are a number of major reasons d/d can apply more conditions faster then your proposed set specifically since hot.

Potent Poison. This increases poison durations 33 percent and the damage from Posion stacks by 33 percent. You can get poisons well over 5k ticks easy without venomshare.

Longer durations base bleed.

The bleed off p/d with 100 percent duration is only 8 seconds. This means you can stack less bleeds as older stacks peel off faster. The base bleed off d/d is 10 seconds with NO duration increases. This means d/d builds do not have to worry as much about increasing durations as coupled with potent poison (which d/d has more access to then p/d) the stacks last longer.

Dagger mastery. Dagger nmastery allows the d/d user to apply posion on every attack . While of short durations if one does extend durations that 33 percent from potent poison will be in addition. This means on every DB you can apply those 3 bleed stacks AND poison.

Impaling lotus.

Dodges can now apply bleed/torment/cripple AOE. When traiting DD you get more dodges and will be able to apply significant torment stacks. Certainly not as much as off shadowstrike but these are applied free of INI. Now P/d can certainly trait this skill but it does have limited range which means the d/d build is much more likely to be in range to apply it when they dodge.

I have no idea why you keep mentioning Confusion. Neither d/p or p/d have confusion available that is excluded to the d/d set. Both get it from Bewildering Ambush.

The d/d set will in fact have more access via Throw Gunk as it easier to get confusion on via a whirle in that field then with a projectile.

If you are thinking of Runes of Perplexity , those runes no longer apply confusion on an Interrupt meaning it just as easy a d/d user get confusion from them as a p/d d/p user.

Back to fields.

Whirls > projectiles in a poison field especaiilly off a DB because most projectile finishers only have a 20 percent chance of proccing a combo. If you have an SB poison field down and do DBS in that field you will add more poison stacks and they can come from dagger mastery on the DB and the whirl finisher on the DB this in addition to the bleed stacks. Keep in mind that those apps of posion will also add weakness and if traited in DD line that weakness will give 10 percent outright damage mitigation to yourself.

Added to that the evade frame of the DB animation was made longer in duration meaning the likelihood of evading an attack much higher .

DeceiverX.8361:

Zodryn.4216:

Rocky, you keep referencing P/D D/P as the best condi set, which has never been the case. For one, D/P is a power set.

Oh, I beg to differ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvVA4K7OFrE

Might not be the best, but D/P is functional on every build for all types of damage/defense.

You’ll notice that

1. He’s using SB alt
2. He’s using interrupt traits for the condi damage on D/P, which didn’t exist until last year

D/P was absolutely not used pre HoT (and still isn’t usually) for condi damage. P/D D/P would be a waste because you use different traits and utilities for each play style and you really don’t have initiative for both either. The point stands that SB is and has been the best alternate weapon, and P/D D/P just doesn’t make sense.

That being said, I’m all for different builds. I even have a S/P hybrid interrupt build that works similarly to the one in that vid. If you think P/D D/P is fun, go for it. I’m just saying it was never the best condi set. Most things have stayed the same or similar post HoT.

Edit: you also said D/P is better than D/D because of the poison AoE. SB has the poison AoE, D/P does not. Unless you’re referring to Lotus Strike, which isn’t AoE.

Yeah, that video shows the potential of properly using venoms with a build designed to shut down the opponents attempts to respond using interrupts—which also apply additional damage as well.

Venom builds do suffer for cooldowns. And a well timed cleanse shuts down a lot of damage. Against some people they will melt, the access to interrupts is really what makes this build shine—more than the additional conditions even.

Zodryn.4216:

DeceiverX.8361:

Zodryn.4216:

Rocky, you keep referencing P/D D/P as the best condi set, which has never been the case. For one, D/P is a power set.

Oh, I beg to differ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvVA4K7OFrE

Might not be the best, but D/P is functional on every build for all types of damage/defense.

You’ll notice that

1. He’s using SB alt
2. He’s using interrupt traits for the condi damage on D/P, which didn’t exist until last year

D/P was absolutely not used pre HoT (and still isn’t usually) for condi damage. P/D D/P would be a waste because you use different traits and utilities for each play style and you really don’t have initiative for both either. The point stands that SB is and has been the best alternate weapon, and P/D D/P just doesn’t make sense.

That being said, I’m all for different builds. I even have a S/P hybrid interrupt build that works similarly to the one in that vid. If you think P/D D/P is fun, go for it. I’m just saying it was never the best condi set. Most things have stayed the same or similar post HoT.

Edit: you also said D/P is better than D/D because of the poison AoE. SB has the poison AoE, D/P does not. Unless you’re referring to Lotus Strike, which isn’t AoE.

It was still used for the stealth; one of my old guild members ran a heavily D/P condi setup several years ago, and everything the guy in the video is using except the Daredevil was there well-before HoT by six months or more.

The Poison field thing was said by Rocky, and not me.

DeceiverX.8361:

It was still used for the stealth; one of my old guild members ran a heavily D/P condi setup several years ago, and everything the guy in the video is using except the Daredevil was there well-before HoT by six months or more.

The Poison field thing was said by Rocky, and not me.

Sorry, looked at the wrong name on the poison field thing. Pressure Striking was part of the June 23 patch last year, so it was there four months pre HoT. Before that, D/P had only one condition on the auto chain and nothing else. Running it for any condition build would be silly. After the June patch, you could use D/P with perma stealth trapper (trap damage was removed that patch as well), or you could use it for torment on interrupt, but I’d say P/D was a far better choice at that time.

If your friend used it years ago, I imagine he used something like a perma stealth caltrops build.

My bad on the Pressure Striking trait release. Just double-checked and it was indeed in June. ANet announced the changes in April before actually implementing them, and I was just going by my discussion dates.

Venoms, and caltrops were around since launch and was also what he heavily depended on. He also ran uncatchable.

Correct in a sense. He ran SA/Acro/Tr.
Spider Venom + Caltrops + Uncatchable + Perplexity runes, lots of evasion. Can’t kill a permanent stealth thief without cleaving, and if you stood there taking the damage he’d just wait for stealth to dispel right behind you and keep applying pressure via dagger AA and keep dodging (via vigor and dagger AA refunding endurance) applying caltrops. If you attacked, you got flooded with interrupts on Headshot and confusion stacks, or he’d just disappear back into stealth when getting low.

It worked quite well, frankly.

P/D was better, and I never said D/P was the best (I actually said that it wasn’t), but D/P condi was a playable build like anything else outside of optimal builds, and better than most of the non-meta options.