Way, WAY back in the day I used to play around with a P/D Thief using mostly celestial gear with some added condi/crit and torment sigil on the pistol. It was a ton of fun as the build had decent enough base power damage to pressure a target while constantly applying bleed, torment, confusion, etc. I used this build concept in WvW and PvP alike and found it to be really fun for the time being. However, I’ve heard that it was completely killed awhile back. Does this build still work or is it actually dead?
Build Examples are below:
Example 1: Celestial Hybrid
Example 2 (Trapper): Trapper – Full Condi
It still works but under-performs thanks to the HoT meta. Basically the thief has a handful of builds that can tear it apart and P/D doesn’t specifically address those builds. Sure a player can out-skill another player that has an advantage but as soon as you run into a strong player in an advantage build they will beat the snot out of you or you will be forced to retreat.
At least that is my experience with it. In skilled hands against average opponents, works great. In duels with solid players or against strong meta HoT builds, not so much. Still viable just not optimal.
It still works but under-performs thanks to the HoT meta. Basically the thief has a handful of builds that can tear it apart and P/D doesn’t specifically address those builds. Sure a player can out-skill another player that has an advantage but as soon as you run into a strong player in an advantage build they will beat the snot out of you or you will be forced to retreat.
At least that is my experience with it. In skilled hands against average opponents, works great. In duels with solid players or against strong meta HoT builds, not so much. Still viable just not optimal.
Thanks for the answer! This is kind of what I was figuring would be the case but wasn’t sure. When looking at this build against the typical condi Warrior, I can see how it would struggle greatly. Anyone with a brain can reflect much of that damage. It may be slightly more effective in PvP though.
Trapper still works in WvW against anyone not running cleanses. But if they are running cleanses, then it’s pretty risky to show yourself. Stuns are in high abundance right now and if you’re not careful, you’ll end up running more than attacking.
In PvP, it’s 100% useless. D/P is meta, and sometimes players run Vault Spammer or even a D/D evade spam build, but D/P can still burst extremely well while also decapping more easily. Vault Spammer is better in team fights than D/P, but its mobility is lower than D/P so you can’t make a quick decap without risking a respawn getting to the point around the same time. Overall, Vault Spammer is viable, but D/P will outperform it usually. D/D condi is countered by anyone who knows how to time CCs and kite.
Saerni can speak better to PvP but full trapper condition in WvW works fine. I have it on one of my builds and it can deal with any class and dominates against some.
d/d spam evade is easily countered and I have never lost to one on P/D. Key is kiting and using the immobs. Once the d/d imobbed he easy to deal with , load your condtion spike and stop attacking as you shadowstrike away.
Vault spammer maintain range and time your #2 to immob . Use in conjunction with needle trap for same. Again spike your condition damage then stealth and get away. Thy have an immob break on the staff but if they use it you are fine as that less ini for vaults.
Both those builds tend to use the EA cleanse and if you stop attacking they will die as you watch.
D/P is much the same. The thing is they like to spike their damage from stealth after a steal. You just have to counter that quickly with your own stealth and shadowstike. You can not afford to miss your steal here so time it correctly.
In all these cases I speak to a thief in trailbalzers with condition duration pushing 100 percent. The reason for this is all the conditions you layer on with those long duratiosn ensures it hard to cleanse them all and especially if they rely on EA. Added to that needle trap Immob of 6 seconds is huge unless they run UC. You will have great access to and uptime on vulnerability/weakness/crippled as covers.
You will find the build works against all classes and builds to a degree. I myself use BT with the new Rending shade meaning with high stealth access you can strip away boons with relative ease. This very effective against eles and warriors. The stealth and condition pressure works very well against the rangers as well.
Avoid stuns and specifically the warrior headbutt. One of those can do you in. If you face A zerker warrior you can not afford him to close on you. Kite back dropping traps and caltrops with uncatchable and use shadowstrike in a pinch. time your stealths carefully and ensure you move around the battlefied so they lose target and have to adjust to your new position.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
I run P/D and consider it “viable.” That said, there are arguments both for and against how optimal it can be in various situations.
In sPvP I’ve found that team comp can matter quite a bit. This is because I play a venom burst build to make the condi effective. In a team situation I need the others to be able to stand closer together so I can venomshare. There is nothing more deadly that three+ players focusing an enemy with basi, spider, and skale. The condi spike is enormous and with basi adds in unblockable as well for the initial strike. Stagger the attacks and consecutive basi will shut down anything they are trying to do.
If your entire team dies instantly to enemy focus then you will be much less effective. But that can be said of any thief. Your entire team dies—try to decap with a DH chasing you down because you’re the only target left.
My build is in the videos linked in my sig.
I run P/D and consider it “viable.” That said, there are arguments both for and against how optimal it can be in various situations.
In sPvP I’ve found that team comp can matter quite a bit. This is because I play a venom burst build to make the condi effective. In a team situation I need the others to be able to stand closer together so I can venomshare. There is nothing more deadly that three+ players focusing an enemy with basi, spider, and skale. The condi spike is enormous and with basi adds in unblockable as well for the initial strike. Stagger the attacks and consecutive basi will shut down anything they are trying to do.
If your entire team dies instantly to enemy focus then you will be much less effective. But that can be said of any thief. Your entire team dies—try to decap with a DH chasing you down because you’re the only target left.
My build is in the videos linked in my sig.
While I play WvW more the use of venoms in a burst build is really one of love hate. I love how getting them on 5 players can give a huge burst to damage. I hate how it next to impossible to use once battle joined.
It depends on how you define viable.
How do you define viable?
How do you define viable?
Overall, viable is a combination of seemingly having a certain minimal chance to win and having some fun playing the build. P/D would not fit this criteria for me.
In ranked sPvP, viable is something I can feasibly use to do my part to beat NA’s better sPvP players in matches. Right now, that’s pretty much D/P dash and staff builds.
In unranked sPvP, viable is something I can feasibly use to win 60-70%+ of my games, which for me is D/D condi, staff, or offhand pistol builds. Also, viable is enjoying playing the build (so D/D condi is out).
Some of it also depends on the situation, like non-D/P thief builds becoming less viable or not viable against good D/P thieves and S/D, which can be considered viable for someone like Sizer, still being so very, very bad against scappers and warriors even in his hands.
There you have it. Viability is thinking I can maintain a certain standard of success and enjoying the way this success comes about. With P/D, I can do neither. Can the OP? That’s up to him and what he considers viable.
So viable depends on the player then? I mean, I expect someone with the muscle memory for a particular weapon set to do much better than one who just picked it up.
And I do enjoy P/D because landing the CnD requires skill, the positioning and dealing with projectile hate is a challenge, and the reward of running condi is that it can be effective if you learn to manage your opponents cleanses. It has a high learning curve for that reason but that doesn’t make it less viable than in other cases.
I would say that starting out expecting a 60-70% win rate on an unfamiliar weapon set in unranked (a gloriously terrible place if teammates are trying to learn to play rev or some other class for the first time) is probably unreasonable. And going against top players with an unfamiliar set is also not likely to result in much headway.
To me viable means that the set performs well as compared to others of it’s type. In the case of P/D that means it compares favorably against D/P condi and D/D condi builds. I think P/D is superior to both because it has greater condi access, can kite melee builds, and if played well has better access to Rending Shade which provides a needed boonstrip against a meta that likes boons quite a bit.
P/D is more of a “support” thief build in that it can help bring down targets by striping boons and providing on demand immobilize. The condi it brings to a fight can spike down a focused target, especially if the venoms are shared with team mates.
I’m gonna expand on defining viability and then offer a counter point to the importance of supporting through immobilize and boon ripping.
Viability depends partly on us and our opponents. The big part we bring to answering “What’s viable?” is goals. If we want to attempt to beat extremely practiced players (a more ambitious goal), the number of viable options goes way down. If we want to beat less practiced players while defying the meta because we prefer playing a build we feel is more creative, then P/D may be exceedingly viable. Viability also depends mostly on opposing players and what they allow to be successfully used against them. Their skill level is going to determine what generally works, then what can feasibly work, and then, ultimately, what is viable.
Since you’re breaking builds down by type, lets look at the support thief builds as a type rather than condi thief as a type. Lets define types of support as abilities which allow our teammates to bring down targets much more easily. Right now, you’ve been looking at immobilize and boon ripping as a means for providing this support. However, you’re also missing the biggest and best type of support we currently have: interrupts. P/D has more immob and boon ripping potential than D/P but little or no means to interrupt abilities. In sPvP, this is game-breaking. Having additional boon rips on top of Bountiful Theft, or additional immobilize on top of Panic Strike, isn’t as helpful as being able to interrupt heals and attacks. If I interrupt certain abilities, like ele or druid heals, Revenant UA, the DH leap, etc., this results in a faster kill than removing protection or resistance and not interrupting some of their abilities.
If Bountiful Theft didn’t exist, Rending Shade would be more important.. If Panic Strike didn’t exist, pistol and sword #2 would be more important. However ,they do exist and every Thief build can support through removing boons and immobilizing targets. When used in conjunction with an offhand pistol and PI, we have an additional option and arguably better option for support. Thus, if you’re comparing viability based on type, P/D may only seem viable because it’s being compared to other condi builds (which are all arguably awful). If you look at “support thief” as the type for making comparisons, this may better allow you see the multitude of limitations P/D currently has (and why it’s not viable for me in sPvP).
(edited by rennlc.7346)
So because the build lacks interrupts it is categorically inferior at higher level play? If that is the only criteria for a build then yes, the set does suffer and I can’t argue otherwise.
I would argue that interrupts are better on paper. Certainly if you can interrupt the enemy at precisely the right moments then on demand interrupt is important. But stability and projectile hate are a major concern in practical application—and besides that timing the interrupt as well.
I’d also argue that the difference between taking just Bountiful Theft and taking both is significant. BT is 3 boons every 20-24 seconds. Rending Shade is 2 boons every 4-10 seconds. Let’s just assume the numbers are 21 and 10 respectively. So BT is 7 seconds per boon and RS is 5 seconds per boon. Now let’s look at a period of 21 seconds and 35 seconds. For the first the split is 3 boons for BT and 4 for RS. In the second the split is 3 boons for BT and 7 for RS (because steal is still on cooldown).
Three boons stolen in 35 seconds is barely going to have an impact. Taken together, however, the boon stealing is 10 total. This is effectively a 200% increase in boon stripping.
On the subject of immobilize: the number 1 target for Body Shot is necro/reaper. They don’t do well when they can’t dodge or otherwise move. Having the ability to repeat it multiple times means that targets in general have difficulty completely cleansing and moving out of the kill zone. It isn’t a primary skill but it does provide extra utility. Just as the interrupts are not the only point of having a D/P thief.
Yes, lacking interrupts (or lacking the absurd damage of staff) currently makes a build categorically inferior. Your argument for P/D is essentially the same argument for S/D. It’s the same because what S/D brings is boon rip from LS (which for me is much easier to land than CnD+Sneak Attack) and immobilize from sword #2 (which is also easier to land and less telegraphed than the flying bola of Body Shot). Thus, although I haven’t attempted to play P/D for sometime, I know from experience how helpful additional boon rips and on-demand immobilize can be. It’s helpful but not as helpful as interrupts (X/P builds) or having much higher damage (staff builds).
Immobilizing a necro with more than Panic Strike, for example, isn’t as helpful as interrupting their casts. They’re not going to outrun any thief builds. They only have the two dodges and shroud for defense. What they can do, however, is re-sustain with their heal and CC chain us into oblivion. This can only occur if they’re allowed to cast by not interrupting or not exploding them with vault.
If you’d like to make a comparison between the value of boon ripping versus interrupts without playing much sPvP yourself, I’d suggest you watch Sindrener (one of, if not the, best D/P thieves currently) and compare him to Sizer (one of, if not the, best S/D thieves currently). They both play a very similar role of moving quickly around the map supporting teammates by causing outnumbered fights. They, however, have varying success in these roles in large part because of differences in their builds. The main pattern to note is how easily Sindrener can pressure most classes he outnumbers while Sizer becomes relatively useless against the better D/P thieves, Warriors, Druids, DHs, and Scappers. The second main pattern to note is how much longer it tends to take Sizer to down someone than Sindrener. In extremely close sPvP games, those seconds matter a ton.
If interrupts are difficult to perform, one of the best places to practice them is in Heart of the Mists against the NPCs. The necro NPC tends to dodge a lot and cast immediately after dodging. This allows practicing timing Headshots to land immediately after dodges – something that typically works well against newer players (but is expected by experienced players). Other NPCs have several abilities which are harder interrupt but can be interrupted every time when they’re anticipated, such as the Rev NPC’s Unrelenting Assault, the engi NPC’s leaping attack, and and the DH NPC’s blinding sword leap.
(edited by rennlc.7346)
I play both p/d condition and a power build relying on with regularity. I assure you the missing interrupts in p/d are amply made up for with other advantages. Yes having interrupt over immob helps more against a necro , but you can still deal with a necro with p/d and immobs and the build performs better against some of the other classes.
You mentioned comparing Sindrener against Sizer pointing out how Sizer less successful against d/p thieves warriors druids and DHS in relative terms. You are comparing a power build to a power build.
P/D does not have the same weaknesses against those classes. Indeed it is one of the better ones you will find for dealing with Druids and DHS and indeed warriors. I have found a DH very susceptible to Immobs and druids to constant Condi pressure both of which P/d offers over d/p and s/d.
All that said , I have found that when i played p/d with the DD line selected over DA I generally had one utility slot that was flexible. If you take BV and distracting strikes you get 4 interrupts which can be used in conjunction with your build. You can have both ,and garner a higher access to immobs and boonstrip over d/p while having much better interrupt access then does d/p have access to immobs.
My own P/d build takes DA over DD as I find it more damaging overall. When fighting a necro I get access to two interrupts via improv which in combo with all those Immobs and the interrupt one can get off BV is all usually more than enough.
While I speak only to WvW I assure you that by chaining Immobs you can neutralize much of an opponents build. There no need to interrupt a dangerous leap and time your shot perfectly when the enemy can not leap anyways because he is immobed.
You do not have to “time your headshots” after a dodge because he can not dodge.
sd is a poor second cousin when it comes to immobs as compared to P/d because s/d tends to focus on power and has little in the way of condition duration and the immob applied via infiltrators does not offer the tactical advantages of an immob applied at range.
I would compare a top D/P thief in sPvP to a top P/D thief in sPvP if a high-ranked P/D thief existed (there are high-ranked D/D acro condi thieves, such as Maygi on NA who I think is still in the top 30-40 or so). Instead, the closest thing currently in upper tier ranked sPvP to what Saerni described, which was a thief build that supports through stripping boons and providing immobilize for teammates, is S/D played by Sizer. If his build, which uses some of the same core mechanics of the P/D builds you guys use through applying immob and ripping boons with attacks, is deficient, then why is it so hard to see that P/D is also currently deficient? You guys have said it works through boon ripping, immobilize, and a strong condi burst (with a long CD). Here’s a specific example of why that boon ripping and immobilize isn’t enough for the build to be among the best.
If you believe it’s viable for what you’re attempting to accomplish, I can’t argue this. According to my own definition, viability is relative to our goals. Someone attempting to win duels and fights in WvW, which seems to be what you play for, is typically attempting something much easier than those attempting to legitimately achieve their highest ranking possible in sPvP. On the other hand, if you believe P/D is comparable to other builds overall, like D/P and staff, then I’m going continue to struggle to attempt to keep an even-tempered and patient discussion because of how insane this perception currently is – particularly in sPvP and especially higher rated sPvP.
Lets look at a specific example of this insanity. Babazhook, you’re telling me timing a Headshot to land after a dodge isn’t needed because immob with condi duration prevents someone from dodging. By playing a P/D build to begin with, you don’t need to time Headshot on dodges (or anything else) because you won’t even have Headshot to interrupt with! That’s a huge problem with the way the weapon-set currently is! It lacks the ability to drastically cripple opponents in the ways which are currently most optimal in most situations, like through interrupting abilities with D/P or sustaining a high amount of damage like staff can (I.E. not just a single-target condi burst combo with 26+ seconds between bursts).
If you want to make an argument, please at least make one that makes sense, such as making a case for why a spammable immobilize would typically (I.E. in most situations and not just some) be more valuable than a spammable interrupt and how this value typically outweighs other comparative deficiencies P/D currently has, like lack of cleave. If you wish to apply these arguments to sPvP, please provide some example for why this isn’t just misguided theory-craft based solely on WvW experience against less practiced players, like providing a link to a twitch account of someone who does what you’re describing and succeeds comparably to most non-P/D thief players while doing it. If we can’t do this right by exchanging ideas and revealing what is typically correct, then we can at least attempt to do this less wrong.
(edited by rennlc.7346)
The reason I stated about not needing to interrupt a after a dodge is because IMMOB can shut down dodges. An interrupt can not. The power of Immob is something else you do not seem to comprehend. You claim that Interrupts shut down an enemies using skills. An Immob does the same thing. Further to that an Immob can shut down a number of skills with a single app. Interrupt is strictly one for one.
I suggest you look to any warrior build just as example. If that warrior is imobbed how many of those skills are of use to him?
With one immob the GS warrior can not use Rush, whirlwind attack is limited. All weapon skills are now limited to persons in range including bursts meaning if I am not in range he can not generate Adrenal or Cleansing Ire. He can not dodge and if he wants to close to range so as to use his AA or his hundred blades he has to break that immob.
Added to that a number of his utility skills will be compromised. If I am at greater then 300 range his headbutt will be of no use , bulls charge not work, and sundering leap remain of no use until that immob broken.
This is shutting multiple skills with a single application of immobilize.
Very much the same happens with a DH. See what happens when you immob a DH and then move behind them. A number of their skills work only to the front and since they can not turn around they can not use them. if immobed and he decides to throw up Shield of Courage I do not have to interrupt it as that front facing only. There no need to interrupt each and every one of those skills as Immob can compromise many at once.
Shutting down the ability to MOVE shuts down skills. it as simple as that.
You suggested a s/d build plays much like p/d. This simply wrong. Just because they both have immobs or boon theft it hardly means they play the same. An immob does not prevent an enemy dropping AOE at their feet it does not prevent the DH dropping his traps against an s/d warrior. S/d has to close to melee to do any damge and must remain there to sustain it. P/d can immob from afar and apply damage without worrying about those traps. They can port in to steal for a condition burst and port back out with shadowstrike to allow the DOT to kick in. S/d can not do that.
You suggested there only one condition burst on a p/d thief this coming every 26 seconds. This simply not true.
On Steal with the instant followup I can apply 5 confusion , 5 vuln , 3 poison , weakness , and 8 bleed and 2 torment. At the end of this I will be at range. (preload needle>steal>(hidden thief kicks in)>sneak attack>shaowstrike.) I also get a close to 6 second immob
At some point in between I can apply a second spike of 7 poison , 5 vuln 8 bleed, 2 torment and weakness. (use of my second needle via the heal plus loading the spider venom) I alos get a close to 6 second immob.
In between those spurts I have 2 torment available via #3 (which is 4 in PvP) , 2 bleeds per second with the AA and 5h3 5 bleeds of any sneak attack managed after I stealth.
If the improv kicks in the venom or trap repeat again.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
If P/D can work in sPvP as you’ve suggested it can, then why are there no P/D thieves in the top 250 of either EU or NA? There’s a variety of D/P thieves and staff thieves. There’s a few D/D acro condi thieves. There’s an S/D thief in Sizer. Why are there no P/D thieves if it has even the slightest possibility of working regularly in sPvP?
Just because there’s no/unseen representation doesn’t mean it cannot work.
Also, there’s the argument that the top 250 is not the only place something can be viable, but that’s a separate discussion.
Technically, it might be impossible to definitively prove or disprove anything. The lack of a high ranked P/D thief, however, does suggest it’s less likely the build is currently comparable to those players are more commonly succeeding with in sPvP. In other words, if a new player wants to predict what weapon sets and builds they’ll succeed with, I’m attempting to show them they should bet less on P/D being one of them – that Babazhook’s experience is more of an exception than a rule. For me, the top 250 is one of the most important places for a build to be viable because trying to climb rankings is still one of those doable (at least before the NA pros filled the rankings with alt accounts) but difficult challenges for more casual players like myself. It can be one of the more exciting aspects available in GW2.
I just want to babazhook to say “P/D is viable for me and what I currently want to do in WvW.” I won’t argue that because to me, this would be the most accurate summary of his point of view and what players who wish to learn from his experiences would benefit most from hearing. They can then couple it with a point of view like mine, which is “S/P, D/P, and staff are viable for me and what I currently want to do in unranked sPvP. D/P dash and staff are viable for me and what I currently want to do in ranked sPvP.” As a result, they may be able to more quickly a develop an understanding for themselves of what can work, when it works, where it works, and why it works. This doesn’t work if we overstate the positive aspects of a build, such as by presenting the boon rip from Rending Shade or the effect of immobilize as stronger than it currently is in most situations.
(edited by rennlc.7346)
If P/D can work in sPvP as you’ve suggested it can, then why are there no P/D thieves in the top 250 of either EU or NA? There’s a variety of D/P thieves and staff thieves. There’s a few D/D acro condi thieves. There’s an S/D thief in Sizer. Why are there no P/D thieves if it has even the slightest possibility of working regularly in sPvP?
The OP did not ask as to how this build perfomed in PvP exclusively. He asked how it did in PvP and in Wvw. I gave my perspective on WvW. Saerni gave his on PvP. I see no fault in Saernis reasoning as to why it can be viable in PvP. Many of the mechanics WILL translate over. I have found saerni a much better source of objective input on a particular build then most here.
If you will go back to my original post in this thread I stated I was speaking to WvW. The followups responding to you in particular are to correct what I consider to be wrong information that you are giving and would apply in either game mode. (such as a p/d condition build has only one condi burst every 26 seconds or Interrupt is categorically better then immob)
(edited by babazhook.6805)
If you’re using steal and spider venom in conjunction, which you’ve stated you typically do when describing how you play your build, you do only have one condi burst every 26 seconds. Stacking abilities makes it a much better burst but it’s still one instance of attacks and thus, one burst. You think I’m misunderstanding your build when this is probably simply a difference in semantics – I.E. you think I’m saying you have one burst ability when I’m saying you have one burst.
Headshot is categorically better than Body Shot. It’s so good it prevents the majority of other classes from effectively playing their own marauder/zerker builds, like marksman druids and shatter mesmers. Few other abilities are having this profound of an impact on the viability of builds in the current game. It’s arguably one of the more disgusting abilities because of how strong it is with PI. It’s one of the main reasons D/P is currently the build of choice for most of the best thieves. What could someone do to prove this to you? Make a poll asking for popular opinion on the value of Headshot with PI vs Body Shot with condi duration? Ask experts on the class, like pro-league levels thieves, on which they think is better?
I have already detailed my two bursts which I can use consecutively if I wish back to back. It is you that does not understand what a condition burst is. There is no requirement to use Spider venom in conjunction with a steal as I outlined to you. Most thieves that play condition builds are aware of this and of the need to space out bursts rather than focus all in one.
A power build does not use every one of the utilities and abilities available to it when it makes a spike attack. that does not mean that it can therefore have only one such attack.
As to headshot I play a warrior as well. I have absolutely no issues with headshot. I have too much stability avilable for it to be a concern , unless of course that thief has RS as well. I also play a Guardian and have little concern over headshot. While I play an engineer less then these two the one I do play also has very good access to stability.
My Guardian has few ways of breaking an immob without using a generic condition cleanse. My warrior does not trait the discipline line and really can not afford to be immobed as he needs to stay in combat to fuel adrenaline and his various heals and cleanses.
I have level 80 toons on all professions and while more familiar with some then others will acknowldege headshot works very well against the Necro. I have already pointed out how my p/d thief has access to three interrupts which are generally enough.
When played both D/D thief and when I play the existing p/d condition build, my single biggest enemy is not headshot. It is/was Immob and espcially when it that rangers entangle followed by RF. When I face those d/d thieves spamming DB i can be on either one of my thieves. One uses head shot at the proper point in the animation the other uses Immob. There greater success with the immob. The slower speed of the body shot does in fact help me time the skill better.
I do not have to talk to your “pros” as they tend to be group think types. This happens through all types of games and in the real world. This type of person generally has one interest and that is winning. They are much less willing to try something different or new because the transtition will affect their chances of winning in the meantime. As such they are much more likely to follow a pre defined formula.
One of the first things a new player does when he comes to these boards is ask for a build that will make him successful. He is generally directed to the meta build wiki where there a handful of builds that are deemed viable. He follows this formula rather then look at alternatives. As he gets better at that build he is determined it the only build that works. This type then gets ingrained in their head that “condition builds” are cancer or played by people with no skill. I really could not care less about what a poll of them would conclude. The most reliable test is my own experience of the builds compared to my own experience of the builds AND the input of other people that PLAY this build. It absolutely not logical to ask a person who does not play the build, never played the build and will not play the build about how well it works.
There a reason the thiefs own devourer venom has only 1 second duration. There a reason Immobs that were applied to an enemy were capped at three. It is because it is a very powerful skill and longer durations would be OP.
I have a warrior who uses resistance. At 6 seconds with healing signet as a source , it not all that powerul. With boon duration of 80 percent and using balanced stance he gets near full time resistance off that one trait making it a very different skill.
The same applies to boosting the duration of an Immob. If the game mode called PvP does not allow the same sort of durations due to artifical constraints on gear, consumables sigils and runes , then that an issue with the game mode and not one with one skill being categoricaly better.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
You know what’s so amazing about biases? Knowing about some of them doesn’t prevent a person from being biased. In some instances, they can be used to make unnecessary and even fallacious arguments – knowing about biases can also bias arguments when we attack the perceived biases of others without also realizing how they’re also biasing ourselves. For example, not realizing we’re over-projecting the implications of our personal experience as holding true for most other people, devaluing information because it can be over-simplified as group-think, etc. What could it be in addition to and/or instead of group-think?
Sometimes, people also develop similar beliefs and understandings because we’ve become aware of some small amount of truth, like learning X is generally better for achieving goal Y. As much as people love to conform to groups and share similar mentalities, we also love improvements too. We can also love doing better, raising our expectations, pursuing more ambition goals, seeking better understandings, and more. If all you see is group-think, you’re only seeing one small part of what contributes to the formation of a “meta.” Other aspects are out of a goal to stream-line and enhance the quality of the PvP experience – to build a community which challenges its players to do what we didn’t know we could. For example, through attempting to beat extremely skilled players and eventually succeeding. Players can accomplish this more quickly if they have a better understanding of what generally works from the get-go.
For the sake of expediting this argument, lets assume immobilize is more useful against DH and Warrior. What about all the classes where Headshot is clearly much more debilitating? Like against Druid, Ele, Thief (especially dash and staff thieves!), Mesmer, Rev, and Necro. If an ability is more debilitating against a greater number of classes and all these classes are regularly played, how is that ability not generally better?
More importantly, do you have any way of disproving what you believe to be true? I think P/D is worse overall than meta thief builds. However, I also have no illusions about maintaining this belief if it’s demonstrated to be a strong build, such as by other thieves achieving high ranks with it, succeeding with it in sPvP tournaments, destroying me in games with it, destroying players who are currently better than me with it, etc. I’m open to proof as long as it’s more than the individual experiences of a couple WvW players of questionable skill level.
You think I don’t like P/D because I dislike condi thieves. I don’t like P/D because I can’t feasibly achieve what I want to achieve and what I can achieve with other builds. If it’s lack of use overall is any indication, other players have generally come to the same conclusion. If someone wants to know what might work for them, then what’s a better starting point? What works for babazhook and saerni or what works for the majority of other players?
You have an opinion. You have personal experience to support that opinion. So do I with mine. What you don’t have is a way of gauging the relevance and accuracy of that opinion and personal experience for PvP players in general. I can point to the sPvP leader board rankings and point to examples of strengths and weakness of builds from streams to highlight where they succeed and where they fail. Those leader board rankings and win/loss ratios are the closest thing we have to empirical evidence and you’re ignoring it. If we’re going to address the question of how good, bad, or in-between P/D is in WvW, sPvP, and PvP overall at least somewhat scientifically, it’s irresponsible to ignore this kind of evidence.
(edited by rennlc.7346)
There a scale of effectiveness between classes and builds when compating an immob to a headshot with interrupt. This in and itself demostrages that headshot categorically a superior choice.
Against a warrior or guardian or other class with high stability uptime headshot becomes much less useful.
Against classes that can readily break an immob and in particular a thief with UC and or Staff , immobs are much less useful.
Everything else falls in between . There not necessarily a clear cut advantage of headshot against every oher profession as you suggest. I would not want to count on against an engineer with stability on evade as example. Added to that a warrior with high stability access or a theif with all of those immob breaks neither headshot or immob become usless against those other classes. Both have uses and both very specific advantages.
As example when an ele enters overload they are able to move around the battlefield applying damage with an AOE ring. an Immob can greatly impact this ability. That headshot MIGHT be better does not make immob bad.
Against druids I like to use my long lasting Immobs to neutralize the pet. I can then put ongoing condi pressure onto the druid itself which is susceptible to such.
Revs are generally weak to condition pressure. My not having a headshot to use against them is not impacting my ability to defeat them.
Finally . This is not a topic in the pvp forum. The OP asked about both wvw and pvp. I have pointed this out before and you continue to ignore it. PvP puts artificial constraints on all builds meaning conclusions drawn from it are not relevant in the context of this debate.
This like claiming Rick Hansen the fastest man in the world after introducing a rule that only in order to determine such all contestants must run the race in a wheelchair.
Open PVP to all gear runes and sigils along with cosumables and I am more then just a little certain that the composition of who tops the PvP leaderboard will change dramatically.
(edited by babazhook.6805)
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