Guild Wars 2

P/D is a condition spec or not? Meaning most of its damage comes from what?

I use C&D on CD -Cloak & Dagger- as to go into stealth, blind my target and get the #1 finisher which to me is really cool because in PvE it just mitigates loads of damage and PvP absolutely messes people up! I more or less chain it minus the 3 sec stealth CD.

I notice a huge drop in DPS when I do not C&D so how should I gear and what runes to use?

It’s a condition build. Most of the damage from vital shot and sneak attack are from the bleeds. I’d recommend a lot of carrion gear (Condition, Power, Vitality) and any runes that provide +condition damage and +bleeding duration (I use 5/6 afflicted).

P/D is a condition damage build, so anything with +condition damage / duration would be good

I don’t think p/d is a good primary weapon set. It’s good for switching into, but you really need something else as primary. Auto attack and vuln are both too slow and 3 is more for maneuver (albeit the damage is respectable). Unless you are liberal with CnD and dancing dagger (2-3 targets), your damage output is not that great.

I use this set and there is no real burst.. but you can surprise people if you stack some bleeds then do a C&D into Poison/Mug into sneak attack. Use all bleed duration stuff too. Get to 100% with food. 8 ticks on vital is amazing.

I run this and almost never use the vuln, it’s a waste of initiative in most situations.

This weapon kit allows you to build a lot more defensively while still maintaining a somewhat decent damage output.

Also use stealthing utils/traits/heal in the times where you cant get a C&D off.

Stiv.1820:

I use this set and there is no real burst.. but you can surprise people if you stack some bleeds then do a C&D into Poison/Mug into sneak attack. Use all bleed duration stuff too. Get to 100% with food. 8 ticks on vital is amazing.

I didn’t know there were foods for bleeding duration, so I settled for 7 ticks in PvE only, I’ll have to try it tonight!

Yea one of the pizzas is condition duration and dmg. Though it seems according to a post here that it may now be bugged or there is some sort of cap. Not sure which it is.

Thanks for the reply, I have already crafted Carrion.

Current build:

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mckMzc0z0MMxvMMMxvMx0GG0mRboscR

Obviously its not cast in stone option wise but the numbers per trait line are fixed -as in I never change them.

as for C&D that is pretty much the only thing I use initiative on unless I have 3 or 4 targets then I use dagger throw -think its called dancing daggers.

C&D is kept on CD unless the boss is really nasty and I haven’t figured out when to dodge.

As for rune not sure yet, go for cond duration or cond damage?

It’s not a good setup at all is what it is.

Pistol in main hand for some reason is very poor at doing much of anything because those setups tend trying to do something very half-heartedly.

Pistol/dagger is one of the worst offenders on the list. The third skill is useless, it’s basically a kittened version of pistol/pistol’s Unload. And cloak and dagger is meaningless without back stab – which you can’t do without a dagger in your main hand.

Shooopa, P/D is pretty viable. Some members play it extremely well.

Shooopa.5632:

It’s not a good setup at all is what it is.

Pistol in main hand for some reason is very poor at doing much of anything because those setups tend trying to do something very half-heartedly.

Pistol/dagger is one of the worst offenders on the list. The third skill is useless, it’s basically a kittened version of pistol/pistol’s Unload. And cloak and dagger is meaningless without back stab – which you can’t do without a dagger in your main hand.

Cloak & Dagger Stealth makes your number 1 skill stack 5 bleeds in quick succession it is integral to P/D build, traited correctly it can make you heal/remove conditions/blind enemies…
Number 3 skill is nothing like unload, it strikes the target and shadow steps you away, giving you an extra way to evade attacks
Maybe you don’t know how to play this spec, but some people are very successful with it.

Tolfast.6289:

Number 3 skill is nothing like unload, it strikes the target and shadow steps you away, giving you an extra way to evade attacks
Maybe you don’t know how to play this spec, but some people are very successful with it.

The descriptions of number 3 don’t say anything about shadow stepping. That would make it substantially more useful.

But cloak and dagger on a ranged build isn’t that great of an idea because you have no really good way to follow it up – five bleeds is much easier to recover from than a back stab.

But you’re right I don’t know this spec extremely well. And I’m a bit biased against pure condition builds because I think they lack versatility which I believe is the thief’s greatest strength.

SlicGW uploaded some P/D WvW and sPvP videos. His build is in the description.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnqE7xnqsyI&feature=relmfu

Shooopa.5632:

Tolfast.6289:

Number 3 skill is nothing like unload, it strikes the target and shadow steps you away, giving you an extra way to evade attacks
Maybe you don’t know how to play this spec, but some people are very successful with it.

The descriptions of number 3 don’t say anything about shadow stepping. That would make it substantially more useful.

But cloak and dagger on a ranged build isn’t that great of an idea because you have no really good way to follow it up – five bleeds is much easier to recover from than a back stab.

But you’re right I don’t know this spec extremely well. And I’m a bit biased against pure condition builds because I think they lack versatility which I believe is the thief’s greatest strength.

P/D is a melee / ranged hybrid, you can’t play it as pure ranged, the DoT’s you stack last about 5 sec but you can stack them insanely fast, it can really wear opponents down.

kubetz.3058:

SlicGW uploaded some P/D WvW and sPvP videos. His build is in the description.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnqE7xnqsyI&feature=relmfu

Moreover; go to his channel page he has more videos and a newer one.

P/D is a powerful build that plays well in PvP and PvE but it needs to be played as MELEE! C&D need to be used often and avoided only tactically when being ranged is of greater value.

I almost never use any Initiative consuming ability other than C&D and what that build has is huge lasting power.

I’ve been running P/D since 80 and it is defiantly one of our strongest weapon sets at the moment. You can build it offensive with lots of poison/might or defensive with Stealth/Acro (what I do).

Currently this spec set up defensive is pretty kitten dominant because 90% of people are running glass cannon builds for whatever their profession is. You can easily outlast them and you don’t have to last long vs glass cannons. This will change as people shift away from glass and go more bunker but until the player-base evolves I will enjoy the hell out of my P/D bunker build.

I see, it’s more a condition/then run setup. But wouldn’t it be easy for some players to remove the bleeds unless they’re contending with multiple foes?

Shooopa.5632:

I see, it’s more a condition/then run setup. But wouldn’t it be easy for some players to remove the bleeds unless they’re contending with multiple foes?

Remember each bleed only last about 5 seconds. You’ll typically keep up about 7 stacks of bleeds from Sneak attack and Vital shot. So even if the player removes them, they’ll have a 7 stack back on them in like 5 seconds.

Condition removal is only significant for long duration conditions like poisons, burning or cripples.

You can stack your bleeds pretty quickly so there isn’t much worry about people removing them, or so I’ve found. I have more concern about them wiping my poison/s.

Yea, bleed duration works very good with this build. I have 75% so I can maintain ~12 stacks with vital/opener in normal fighting and if I get really aggressive with Calatrops & weapon swaps to D/D I can get up to 20+ alone. It only takes ~6 seconds (assuming you can C&D something) to get 12 stacks back from a total bleed wipe.

The secret of P/D is to pair it with D/P….

It gives you 2 ways to evade attacks… one when your in melee and need to get out… one when at range and need to get close.

Body Shot > CnD > Weapon Swap > Backstab… is one attack chain…
Caltrops > CnD > Sneak Attack… is 18 bleeds easy…
Blinding Powder > HeartSeeker > Backstab is another…

I do the following in my P/D and D/P build:

Start in P/D >Body Shot>Steal>CnD>Weapon Swap>Backstab ( It hits for 38% extra damage guareenteed 100% crit on weapon swap) + (8% more from Vunerability from Body and CnD)
Now in D/P >Black Powder>HeartSeeker>Backstab ( it hits for 31% extra damage since int is down to about 6)

In addition you bring great AE with Caltops > Dancing Dagger

An interrupt with Head Shot…

You have to juggle weapons and know when to go in and when to go out … but it is godly when you master the 2 sets together….

Note: The extra damage listed in my rotation above is from my build. If you want it let me know…

fractal.7039:

Note: The extra damage listed in my rotation above is from my build. If you want it let me know…

Thanks for the tips and yes, I am interested in your build & gearing strategy.

Build Link 0/25/0/20/25

Couple notes about the build…. The current spec with 20 in acrobatics is a recent test…

The other build was 20 into Shadow Arts for Hidden Thief and Infusion of Shadow…

I am testing to see if the increase in INT regen is more damage over an extended fight…

As for gear… I got for a balance of Prec, Tough, Vit and Power…

Test auto attacks with no trait points equipped non-crit:

Light target 350-375 ish Heavy Target 250-275 ish

Test auto attacks with trait points as above non crit:

Light targets 450 – 471 Heavy Targets 350-375 ish

Which is about 35% increase over all which is near correct for the build….

Not to mention: 19000 HP and 2549 Armor

Can it out damage glass cannons… nope… but it is a great balance for a build to let you do what you need to do safely…

I couldn’t live without D/D or Shortbow on swap. Both have great combat movement for getting out of dodge. I personally go D/D for heartseeker chasing and running as it seems to be the best pure moment per init and aslo gives D/D#3 as an option. Inf arrow ignores roots and blinds people and stuff though so both are really good.

Shooopa.5632:

Tolfast.6289:

Number 3 skill is nothing like unload, it strikes the target and shadow steps you away, giving you an extra way to evade attacks
Maybe you don’t know how to play this spec, but some people are very successful with it.

The descriptions of number 3 don’t say anything about shadow stepping. That would make it substantially more useful.

But cloak and dagger on a ranged build isn’t that great of an idea because you have no really good way to follow it up – five bleeds is much easier to recover from than a back stab.

But you’re right I don’t know this spec extremely well. And I’m a bit biased against pure condition builds because I think they lack versatility which I believe is the thief’s greatest strength.

If you’re looking at build editors their info on the number 3 skill is incorrect for some reason with P/D you stab and then shadow step away and shot the target, with D/P you shot and then shadow step to the target for a stab

Its a fun build to play, and it can do great against average players, but its only damage source can be completely mitigated by condition removal.

On my thief I can remove two conditions everytime I stealth, I can also remove burn/bleed/poison when I heal, and also when I take damage under 75% hp. If for some reason I need more, I can swap shadowstep in.

What Stx said is why I wish thieves had a burn option. Bleeds are great but heavily countered by condition removal since you need several stacks to do good damage and only one condition removal to get rid of them. Burn tends to do less potential damage, but you need only reapply it once removed instead of building it up.

First class with torch mainhand, maybe?

I use to run with sword/pistol because i loved pistol whip but early on i changed to D/P because i love poppin in and out of stealth. You gotta work on timing too especially with CnD, I start CnD before I get close to my target because your target doesn’t initiate there attack till there in close, giving you a chance to dodge through when you hit taking no damage.

With right SA traits you gain 2 init everytime you stealth pulling off mor CnDs, I really love my build n it pissus off the heartseeker spam thieves when im always in n out of stealth while he bleeds to death.

You can’t completely mitigate something that can be re applied between C&D stealth which is about 5 sec. The build revolves around outlasting your foe and no class can chain remove Conditions!

This build chips away at your foe, Vulnerability, Weakness, Poison, Bleed, Fumble, Root, Snare, X number of Bleeds and every 3sec to 5sec you stealth for about 3sec.

What’s amazing about C&D is its up all the time and what many of us use when they Stomp a downed player. You stand just outside of melee hit box and C&D as you move in!

blackgoat.5172:

Shooopa.5632:

Tolfast.6289:

Number 3 skill is nothing like unload, it strikes the target and shadow steps you away, giving you an extra way to evade attacks
Maybe you don’t know how to play this spec, but some people are very successful with it.

The descriptions of number 3 don’t say anything about shadow stepping. That would make it substantially more useful.

But cloak and dagger on a ranged build isn’t that great of an idea because you have no really good way to follow it up – five bleeds is much easier to recover from than a back stab.

But you’re right I don’t know this spec extremely well. And I’m a bit biased against pure condition builds because I think they lack versatility which I believe is the thief’s greatest strength.

If you’re looking at build editors their info on the number 3 skill is incorrect for some reason with P/D you stab and then shadow step away and shot the target, with D/P you shot and then shadow step to the target for a stab

Yes, one of the build editors bugged out and P/D shows the 3 skill of Pistol with no offhand, which is a kittened version of Unload. The tool tip in game actually does say it shadow steps:

Shadow Strike
Dual Wield. Stab your foe, then shadowstep away and shoot them.
Damage: 336
Range: 130

P/D is not about doing the most burst damage at one time, its about wearing down opponents because they can’t hit you (stealth plus kiting abilities like Dancing Dagger and Shadow Strike) and they bleed out in the mean time.

Its all about different play styles and while I love this one, I’ve become much more fond of Power builds in WvW which is where I play mostly. But even then I don’t use D/D (though I do like D/D)

Stx.4857:

Its a fun build to play, and it can do great against average players, but its only damage source can be completely mitigated by condition removal.

On my thief I can remove two conditions everytime I stealth, I can also remove burn/bleed/poison when I heal, and also when I take damage under 75% hp. If for some reason I need more, I can swap shadowstep in.

I’ve never had a problem with it they just take longer to go down. This build puts on about 9-10 bleeds every 6 seconds or so. I don’t know anything that can keep up with that? Also for every condition removal skill/trait your enemy has it’s forgoing some damage option they could have had against you.

P/D is more of a sPvP small skirmish condition build. It’s not really any good in WvW, since single target condition builds really won’t do much when fighting zerg v. zerg. I wouldn’t suggest spending all the money on the gear unless you are truly determined to use it.

What the hell are some of you saying it’s not a good build for? It’s great, some good videos on youtube of this build.

I use it as my main weapon set and I can control the fights. In and out of stealth a hell of a lot.

You can run the build to have high survivability or pop 30 into power and have some decent damage output and condition damage and just kitten people off.

Though i’ve only used this build in WvW and PvE, not sPvP.

Use shortbow for WvW zerg fighting.

Krathalos.3461:

P/D is more of a sPvP small skirmish condition build. It’s not really any good in WvW, since single target condition builds really won’t do much when fighting zerg v. zerg. I wouldn’t suggest spending all the money on the gear unless you are truly determined to use it.

Depends on your WvW role… If you’re a scout I could actually see it working very nicely.

Not sure why you would think it’s not for WvW. Can solo supply camps easy with it and even kill players in the middle of a supply camp who think they are safe with all their NPCs.

You can take on superior numbers and slowly kill them all if you slot haste to finish or are just patient and kill your targets 3x over to finally get the finish in.

Obviously against good players who know how to fight you it’s a lot harder. Especially other bunker types. You will end up in a 10 minute fight that ends in one of you getting run over by the opposing zerg.

People don’t try to kite this build enough. Not like that’s easy though with dancing dagger and whatever weapon swap you have but the more they kite the less dmg you can do.

Still, in the current state of WvW this set is really good.

I love p/d ! Combined with Carrion armor I feel like a beastie! I seriously can manage
1v2 matches most of the time. Along with SB (AOE) I’m very viable in WvW with all the condition dmg! I’m just very glad I gave it a shot !

Stiv.1820:

Not sure why you would think it’s not for WvW. Can solo supply camps easy with it and even kill players in the middle of a supply camp who think they are safe with all their NPCs.

You can take on superior numbers and slowly kill them all if you slot haste to finish or are just patient and kill your targets 3x over to finally get the finish in.

Obviously against good players who know how to fight you it’s a lot harder. Especially other bunker types. You will end up in a 10 minute fight that ends in one of you getting run over by the opposing zerg.

People don’t try to kite this build enough. Not like that’s easy though with dancing dagger and whatever weapon swap you have but the more they kite the less dmg you can do.

Still, in the current state of WvW this set is really good.

You can solo supply camps pretty easily on every thief build. All classes can, really. That doesn’t mean it’s good.

In zergs, you’re not going to have enough time to get your conditions’ full duration out. Since you’re also stuck at 900 range, you’re cannon fodder to anyone at 1200 range. Sure, in small skirmishes, it’s good. But every thief build is in small skirmishes. That’s what thief excels at.

I’m not saying don’t use it. I’m just saying it’s not the greatest for WvW. It’s really good in sPvP and small skirmishes, definitely. Once again, though, these are more rare in WvW unless you’re in an organized guild group running around by yourselves.

P/D if not already said here is cookie cutter layout for a venom share thief. I’ve been using the weapon set and spec since around level 40 and never went back. It’s a very defensive weapon set. 4 makes a decent damage dump for that initiative and has good damage.

One of the most basic strats I use with this is buffing devour+spider, CnD ~Applying devours~ then using a sneak attack from stealth to dump the remaining 4 stacks of spider into the duration. Also, running ambush trap+thieves guild makes up for the slightly less damage and even more control since venom share works on your thieves.

Built the right way i’ve made other thieves crumple in a few seconds, forcing them to burn their heal and then doing it all over again, it’s strong when you know how to play it. Also, your venoms bounce with Dancing Dagger =P one dagger only counts as one venom so bounce those venoms over EVERYTHING

In the world of thief CoD builds for “Awesome lul killz on the scoreboard” This is one of the only thief builds I found that really helps and shines with a team. With ambush trap and thieves you always have a team too. =D

P/D is the spec I’ve been using for quite some time, and it pairs well with a variety of swaps. P/D is a heavy condition pressure spec that favors survivability over burst while leaving a pretty sustainable initiative pool for adapting to changing combat conditions. With proper runes and use of C&D it can maintain 6 stacks of weakness and 10+ stacks of 110+ damage bleed indefinitely, and apply these endlessly, as well as liberal application of blind. If you played a condition pressure ranger in GW1 you’ll feel right at home with this build. It excels at making opponents waste condition removal and engaging multiple targets.

This can works well with several trait specs, but its weakness is a lack of sustainable AoE and burst. Like a GW1 condition pressure ranger it is a build that works best in support of heavier burst teammates, ensuring the target burns through condition removal, then applying cripple and massive vulnerability stacks (literally capping vuln with initiative to spare) in a quick burst to ensure a solid kill.

Its very flexible trait-wise, though you’re going to absolutely need at least 10 points in shadow mastry for infusion of shadow to lower the cost of C&D to a spammable level.

If you’re looking for burst damage, P/D won’t give it to you, and building it for straight power isn’t very efficient, but P/D does an excellent job as a thief that can stick it out in a prolonged fight, which is something that most burst builds lack.

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mckMzc0z0MMxvMMMxvMx0GG0mRboscR

Using this build at the moment and I do not use Infusion of Shadow and have yet to come up with any issue with Initiative mainly because I use Initiative exclusively for C&D.

Obviously the choice of which major trait to use can and should always be changed depending on what you are doing -should go without saying. In solo play or group play, roamer or DPS assist. PvE group play or Orr farming and so on.

As for Runes what are your choices? Undead?

Krathalos.3461:

Stiv.1820:

Not sure why you would think it’s not for WvW. Can solo supply camps easy with it and even kill players in the middle of a supply camp who think they are safe with all their NPCs.

You can take on superior numbers and slowly kill them all if you slot haste to finish or are just patient and kill your targets 3x over to finally get the finish in.

Obviously against good players who know how to fight you it’s a lot harder. Especially other bunker types. You will end up in a 10 minute fight that ends in one of you getting run over by the opposing zerg.

People don’t try to kite this build enough. Not like that’s easy though with dancing dagger and whatever weapon swap you have but the more they kite the less dmg you can do.

Still, in the current state of WvW this set is really good.

You can solo supply camps pretty easily on every thief build. All classes can, really. That doesn’t mean it’s good.

In zergs, you’re not going to have enough time to get your conditions’ full duration out. Since you’re also stuck at 900 range, you’re cannon fodder to anyone at 1200 range. Sure, in small skirmishes, it’s good. But every thief build is in small skirmishes. That’s what thief excels at.

I’m not saying don’t use it. I’m just saying it’s not the greatest for WvW. It’s really good in sPvP and small skirmishes, definitely. Once again, though, these are more rare in WvW unless you’re in an organized guild group running around by yourselves.

I don’t really do the zerg thing head on. For most zerg stuff I use all 3 stealth abilities and run around to the side or behind the zerg and “pull” people away to me or target people retreating to the back. They always feel so comfortable with their completely inattentive zerg right there facing the other way.

I have been using a P/D build the whole leveling process I run it in sPvP also. I play without venoms or power. While my dps is on the low side (as far as burst goes) I routinely run over folks in sPvP and in PvE content is far from hard. I run 0/0/30/20/20 and do just fine. Between the dodge and stealth might stacks and the boost to boons I usually keep up 4 to 6 stacks which helps with dps.

Cempa.3645:

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mckMzc0z0MMxvMMMxvMx0GG0mRboscR

Using this build at the moment and I do not use Infusion of Shadow and have yet to come up with any issue with Initiative mainly because I use Initiative exclusively for C&D.

Obviously the choice of which major trait to use can and should always be changed depending on what you are doing -should go without saying. In solo play or group play, roamer or DPS assist. PvE group play or Orr farming and so on.

As for Runes what are your choices? Undead?

I personally use undead, because I’m not traited very defensively, but for a more defensive build like yours you might want to try 2x krait/centaur/afflicted for a massive buff to bleed duration. As for infusion of shadow, the reason I like to call it a must is that while you have enough initiative for C&D without it, the ability to have a enough to use the occasional other ability for cripples, weakness, shadowsteps, and other utilities tend to add a lot to survivability.

That said whatever works for you works. I highly reccomend infusion, but a lot of people recommend a lot of traits that don’t jive with certain playstyles, and just doing something because someone on the forums said so is always a bad idea.

I can totally see how it wouldn’t be an issue with your build!

Stiv.1820:

Yea one of the pizzas is condition duration and dmg. Though it seems according to a post here that it may now be bugged or there is some sort of cap. Not sure which it is.

There is a cap at +100%.

All of the medium to high level pizza foods add condition duration, up to +40% for the level 80 version. So if you are already at, say, +80 from trait/rune/sigil etc, you’d only still get to +100%… which is why it seems like the pizza “isn’t working” in some situations.

Moral of the story, you can only double your conditions’ durations… plan accordingly.