Guild Wars 2

Mained thief since release, played this build approx 5-6 months now and so I feel it’s about time to share it. If you are looking to play something that’s different, maybe you are a fan of P/P but could never get it to work or maybe you just love conditions, this build maybe for you.

I shot the footage on Wednesday while solo roaming, which is still alive in EU T5, barely.
One other thing, please keep the hate to a minimum, I am fully aware of how many people despise condition builds in any form, so inb4 all the “omg cheese build” comments etc, thankyou.

Video Link : https://youtu.be/3ppI_RtWwNE

Build link : http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZUQNAqaVlsMhSnYRTw7Jw/ELOFl3IsCnHXAUADw84n+vPA-TlSAQBo7IA8P9FfU5nMVCqgDJQGOBAMZ/Bp9AAeo6PA4ABEAABYmlZZOzk5Mz4Fv4Fv4FPzcmzcmzcmFCYxaA-w

Looks like an effective build. Too bad you are in EU, would probably enjoy dueling you a bit :p

saerni.2584:

Looks like an effective build. Too bad you are in EU, would probably enjoy dueling you a bit :p

I had a feeling you might find it interesting, we both share a love of rending shade

I like it. Close to something I drummed up for an alt account.

Hi Vavume. It’s an effective build, I’ve roamed with you while you were playing it and it was easy to do outnumbered fights. One question, though – since the build is reliant on bound and you don’t run Acro – how do you deal with immob? Especially when outnumbered 1v2 or so.

godmoney.6025:

Hi Vavume. It’s an effective build, I’ve roamed with you while you were playing it and it was easy to do outnumbered fights. One question, though – since the build is reliant on bound and you don’t run Acro – how do you deal with immob? Especially when outnumbered 1v2 or so.

Immobs are not really a problem for me, entangle, panic strike (some of worst offenders) have been in the game for years, so I’m just used to dealing with them, druids ancient seeds is prob the worst but I just make sure to get the steal off to cleanse it. If things really go badly there is always shadowstep/refuge. I’m very rarely out of options even vs large groups trying to focus me.

Did I miss the “build” part or is it in the vanity video somewhere?

Straegen.2938:

Did I miss the “build” part or is it in the vanity video somewhere?

Under strict instruction from Tybalt leftpaw (Order of Whispers) I have encrypted the build into the video, those that have undergone proper training should easily be able to decipher it.

condi + thief = nope, i dont really understand why people play condi thief.
its such a baller mad fast get in get out toon and then u have people who choose to play with condi’s >.<

reddie.5861:

condi + thief = nope, i dont really understand why people play condi thief.
its such a baller mad fast get in get out toon and then u have people who choose to play with condi’s >.<

I played full glass power D/D for first 3 years of this game, I never thought I would say this but in the end even I got bored of backstab, times change, people change, it was time to do something different.

seems very boring to play, #5 dodge #1#3 and repeat rotation (if you really want to call it a rotation) p/d was a lot more fun to play then this.

Straegen.2938:

Did I miss the “build” part or is it in the vanity video somewhere?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAqKWcKq5wP9ffvRYFOPuAoAGAA
then something with very low crit rate / power as armor and runes w/e helps with bleed / condi dmg

happy?

i think that is correct way to play p/p though i honestly could not find a better way i look at it when hots came out lol

reddie.5861:

Straegen.2938:

Did I miss the “build” part or is it in the vanity video somewhere?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAqKWcKq5wP9ffvRYFOPuAoAGAA
then something with very low crit rate / power as armor and runes w/e helps with bleed / condi dmg

happy?

Very close, one trait was wrong, swap Havoc mastery for weakening strikes.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

seems very boring to play, #5 dodge #1#3 and repeat rotation (if you really want to call it a rotation) p/d was a lot more fun to play then this.

Not sure where you got #3 from but anyway, it’s same #5 #1 that I played with D/D for years, I don’t get bored of winning, I seem to recall killing you with it last week, that was fun

yeah you did, but it wasnt just you, was already trying to get away from the fight at tower from the pew pewers on top and that other d/p thief.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

yeah you did, but it wasnt just you, was already trying to get away from the fight at tower from the pew pewers on top and that other d/p thief.

You were 100% hp, no one else touched you, you melted in 3 sec’s, cool story tho.

With all that boon application and duration out there, I am finding a build With RS ever more effective. I think more people should give it a shot. You will notice it especially when you come up against one of those bunkers that keeps applying boons.

Given I play so many styles of thief and switch back and forth sometimes I forget the build I am using as and forget I have RS traited. I really notice how a battle can turn in my favor when I suddenly remember “Hey I have RS use it more”.

Vavume.8065:

reddie.5861:

Straegen.2938:

Did I miss the “build” part or is it in the vanity video somewhere?

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAqKWcKq5wP9ffvRYFOPuAoAGAA
then something with very low crit rate / power as armor and runes w/e helps with bleed / condi dmg

happy?

Very close, one trait was wrong, swap Havoc mastery for weakening strikes.

thats bit weird tho, u barely crit im aware that u also barely strike from within that distance so i wasnt sure what to pick at this trait.

since all 3 are kinda “crap” for your build

reddie.5861:

thats bit weird tho, u barely crit im aware that u also barely strike from within that distance so i wasnt sure what to pick at this trait.

since all 3 are kinda “crap” for your build

Thing is this, rending shade steals boons off enemys at a very fast rate, this means I often have fury up and then I am able to crit at a decent enough rate to proc the weakness. Weakness is great in my build because its another cover condition, it reduces the damage I take and it also synergizes well with my condition duration.

If one uses p/p unload or sneak attack with regularity a high crit rate not needed if trying to slap on something like weakness via weakening strikes. 4 might be a little low but it des not have to be that much higher if one can generate fury. (Fury and swiftness tend to me the most common boons others apply meaning RS gets them from others rather easily as the OP points out)

The weakness app has a 10 second cooldown. In that 10 seconds You are pretty well assured of at least one crit. If you have maximum condition duration this all but means full time weakness unless the opponent cleanses.

Awesome build, thank you for developing and sharing it. I quite like the novel combination of sneak attack + focus on stealth AND pairing caltrops with bound. And with all that stealth, rending shade can truly shine. Tons of synergy there. Will give it a try.

If I were playing that, I’d make some changes to make use of interrupts and low CD physical skills (which are some of our best 1v1 utilities). I didn’t enter all the gear but this will give you the gist of how I’d play the same build.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAqan8lCdmiFmCmOB8PhFkiaO+v/9nrBCgHw7FuheA-TlhGQB1S5Hv2f4Qq/sRlgA4EAYvHAAA-w

-Channel Vigor is way better than HiS. It’s harder to interrupt, heals more over time, and when using bound with offhand pistol, you get more stealth from CV than HiS on a shorter CD.
-Between perplexity runes, PI, and draining sigils, interrupts look OP on paper. They should be used!
-Without any on-crit procs or ferocity requiring greater crit %, 12s Bandit’s Defense is better than Signet of Agility.
-Although Spider Venom potentially does more straight condi damage than Impairing Daggers, the slow and immob on ID can be way more problematic for an opponent (especially when it makes their casts so easy to interrupt, like Druids in celestial form). ID is better.

Basically, use RS to strip stab to allow for regular interrupts. Rather than having a single burst combo with confusion on steal and spider venom, this can more consistently pressure an opponent. It accomplishes this with interrupts and two decent bursts.

The first burst is doing Impairing Daggers + Sneak Attack from stealth (you can start Sneak Attack before the daggers hit and cause reveal). However, this also requires being 500-600+ units away which gives them more time to react (although if the players in your video are typical WvW players, they probably won’t react at all). The second burst is using steal at the very, very end of a bound with the stealth on steal trait. This causes the bound to hit while also allowing you to stealth.

rennlc.7346:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAqan8lCdmiFmCmOB8PhFkiaO+v/9nrBCgHw7FuheA-TlhGQB1S5Hv2f4Qq/sRlgA4EAYvHAAA-w

Making builds on paper is one thing, but you really need to go out there and play it to see how it actually plays, I can see straight away that you are going to be squishy to power and have problems with conditions, shadow’s embrace will not save you from the monster condition builds out there, and with no toughness you won’t last long vs a power thief, mes, war.
You have no condition duration for bleeds, poison, torment. You are relying far to much on interrupts imho and will have little to no preasure without them, you wont steal pulsing stab often enough from some classes to even be able to interrupt, and if you attempt to interrupt to much you will not have int to re-stealth.
To be honest with you it looks like a somewhat rushed build that you haven’t tested or tweaked.

I actually find SE often enough Condition removal is you have high access to stealth. This predicated on avoiding getting those conditions on you and living with the fact you will have to do with some of those cover conditions on you.

rennlc.7346:

If I were playing that, I’d make some changes to make use of interrupts and low CD physical skills (which are some of our best 1v1 utilities). I didn’t enter all the gear but this will give you the gist of how I’d play the same build.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAqan8lCdmiFmCmOB8PhFkiaO+v/9nrBCgHw7FuheA-TlhGQB1S5Hv2f4Qq/sRlgA4EAYvHAAA-w

-Channel Vigor is way better than HiS. It’s harder to interrupt, heals more over time, and when using bound with offhand pistol, you get more stealth from CV than HiS on a shorter CD.
-Between perplexity runes, PI, and draining sigils, interrupts look OP on paper. They should be used!
-Without any on-crit procs or ferocity requiring greater crit %, 12s Bandit’s Defense is better than Signet of Agility.
-Although Spider Venom potentially does more straight condi damage than Impairing Daggers, the slow and immob on ID can be way more problematic for an opponent (especially when it makes their casts so easy to interrupt, like Druids in celestial form). ID is better.

Basically, use RS to strip stab to allow for regular interrupts. Rather than having a single burst combo with confusion on steal and spider venom, this can more consistently pressure an opponent. It accomplishes this with interrupts and two decent bursts.

The first burst is doing Impairing Daggers + Sneak Attack from stealth (you can start Sneak Attack before the daggers hit and cause reveal). However, this also requires being 500-600+ units away which gives them more time to react (although if the players in your video are typical WvW players, they probably won’t react at all). The second burst is using steal at the very, very end of a bound with the stealth on steal trait. This causes the bound to hit while also allowing you to stealth.

Perplexity runes were changed an no longer benefit off interrupts. The confusion now comes when a heal used so you have to be in range when you use that heal or it wasted.

depending how one fights I find I will swap spider venom for ID quite often. Ie SV really works better in a group. Added to that SV , unlike ID can be applied using another attack. So as example the sneak attack with SV loaded gets 5 bleeds 5 poison in that single attack whereas in a build using ID you need to do a separate attack (blockable etc).

In a more traditional DD condi build using the Impaling trait , venoms can be loaded off your dodges which can turn that dodge into a nice spike of conditions.

Unlike a d/d build which has high base bleeds , a build uysing p/X for conditions tends to need higher durations as the base on the sneak attack is rather low. Gievn the AA applies bleeds , a higher duration can allow more of these to stack even outside the sneak attack apps making it harder for the enemy just to run the timer out on them.

babazhook.6805:

I actually find SE often enough Condition removal is you have high access to stealth. This predicated on avoiding getting those conditions on you and living with the fact you will have to do with some of those cover conditions on you.

Sure it’s doable, I just prefer being pretty much unkillable vs other condi., unless it’s a condi reaper throwing all my condi back on me :P

Personally, I hate it. too much hiding and not enough speed. Hey if you enjoy it, shoot away cause it seems to work well.

Like a slower, at range d/d. I like it. Going to play around with this, probably with the same Viper/Trailblazer split I use right now.

Hidden Thief + Krait runes-> pre cast elite, steal, sneak attack and you open with 5 different conditions but requires changing some of the trailblazer items so the bleeding doesnt go over 100% and you lose duration for the other conditions
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vZUQNAqaVlsMhSnYRTw7Jw/ELIF187X/7v3LcDzHXDEAPAA-TlSAQBo7IAogDJAAOQAKSfBqU/RaPAgMcCAqpSwes/QJV+FAABYmlZZOzk5Mz4Fv4Fv4FPzcmzcmzcmFCYxaA-w
Not sure if its a good trade

ColdHuh.6785:

Not sure if its a good trade

Already tried it previous to my current build, it works ofc but I find the build I have now works better for me. Hidden thief is not needed in this build as it has no problem in stealthing, so taking Leeching venoms to reduce the cooldown of poison means you can keep the preasure up in longer fights, and the extra condition duration I have 70%+ to all conditions means those poisons are more effective, then think about the perplexity, bleed, weakness, vunerability, blind, immob uptimes. Bottom line for me is taking duration for ALL conditons.

Also check the stats between the 2 builds, I have far more toughness and condition duration, where you basically gained nothing other than a 6th piece bonus attack. (and the bleed when struck bonus can actually be annoying when you get shot by a guard running past a tower, it will keep you in combat far longer.)

Vavume.8065:

Making builds on paper is one thing, but you really need to go out there and play it to see how it actually plays, I can see straight away that you are going to be squishy to power and have problems with conditions, shadow’s embrace will not save you from the monster condition builds out there, and with no toughness you won’t last long vs a power thief, mes, war.
You have no condition duration for bleeds, poison, torment. You are relying far to much on interrupts imho and will have little to no preasure without them, you wont steal pulsing stab often enough from some classes to even be able to interrupt, and if you attempt to interrupt to much you will not have int to re-stealth.
To be honest with you it looks like a somewhat rushed build that you haven’t tested or tweaked.

We seem to have a different understanding of how thief should be played. We’re not supposed to eat a condi bomb and rely on an opponent continuing to attack us as we spam dodges to cleanse it. We’re not supposed to counter power bursts by tanking them with toughness. We’re supposed to avoid the condi bomb and power bursts by dodging, blocking, or using stealth before or as it’s coming.

Ideally, you would be someone who tries the build I put together. I have no stake or interest in WvW. I’m just an sPvPer with an outside perspective for you to consider. You, however, do having something to gain. This is a chance to take a build you like and work in one of the more rewarding aspects of thief game play with interrupts. Were suggestions and new perspective not part of what you were hoping for when you made this thread?

babazhook.6805:

Perplexity runes were changed an no longer benefit off interrupts. The confusion now comes when a heal used so you have to be in range when you use that heal or it wasted.

depending how one fights I find I will swap spider venom for ID quite often. Ie SV really works better in a group. Added to that SV , unlike ID can be applied using another attack. So as example the sneak attack with SV loaded gets 5 bleeds 5 poison in that single attack whereas in a build using ID you need to do a separate attack (blockable etc).

In a more traditional DD condi build using the Impaling trait , venoms can be loaded off your dodges which can turn that dodge into a nice spike of conditions.

Unlike a d/d build which has high base bleeds , a build uysing p/X for conditions tends to need higher durations as the base on the sneak attack is rather low. Gievn the AA applies bleeds , a higher duration can allow more of these to stack even outside the sneak attack apps making it harder for the enemy just to run the timer out on them.

Nightmare runes seem like a solid alternative to perplexity runes then (for the additioal interrupt). Aren’t condition duration traits and sigils largely redundant with the +40% condition duration food?

rennlc.7346:

We seem to have a different understanding of how thief should be played.

Were suggestions and new perspective not part of what you were hoping for when you made this thread?

Yeah we have a different understanding, and no I was not looking for suggestions for other builds.

rennlc.7346:

Nightmare runes seem like a solid alternative to perplexity runes then (for the additioal interrupt).

Nightmare runes were also changed, there is no interrupt on them.

If you had to make a budget version, what changes would you suggest both in equipment and possibly playstyle?

I’m introducing a friend to Thief, and while Condi P/P is perfect thematically, they don’t quite have the resources for Trailblazer or ascended yet.

Why aren’t you looking for suggestions, Vavume?

rennlc.7346:

Why aren’t you looking for suggestions, Vavume?

Why would I be? I created this build over a long period of time ironing out its flaws, I’m happy with it, I came here to share it with others, not ask for help with it.

Ghotistyx.6942:

If you had to make a budget version, what changes would you suggest both in equipment and possibly playstyle?

Use Dire stats with krait runes till you can scale up to trailblazer.

So suggestions are off the table for you because they’re inherently critical? In other words, you want credit for what you’ve made and suggestions take away from what you’ve done?

I don’t ask to insult. I simply want to understand where you’re coming from.

rennlc.7346:

So suggestions are off the table for you because they’re inherently critical? In other words, you want credit for what you’ve made and suggestions take away from what you’ve done?

I don’t ask to insult. I simply want to understand where you’re coming from.

Well clearly you do not understand where I am coming from, you have already jumped to your own conclusions, so lets just leave it at that because nothing positive is coming from this conversation.

If you have your own build idea’s feel free to make your own thread and post it.

rennlc.7346:

Vavume.8065:

Making builds on paper is one thing, but you really need to go out there and play it to see how it actually plays, I can see straight away that you are going to be squishy to power and have problems with conditions, shadow’s embrace will not save you from the monster condition builds out there, and with no toughness you won’t last long vs a power thief, mes, war.
You have no condition duration for bleeds, poison, torment. You are relying far to much on interrupts imho and will have little to no preasure without them, you wont steal pulsing stab often enough from some classes to even be able to interrupt, and if you attempt to interrupt to much you will not have int to re-stealth.
To be honest with you it looks like a somewhat rushed build that you haven’t tested or tweaked.

We seem to have a different understanding of how thief should be played. We’re not supposed to eat a condi bomb and rely on an opponent continuing to attack us as we spam dodges to cleanse it. We’re not supposed to counter power bursts by tanking them with toughness. We’re supposed to avoid the condi bomb and power bursts by dodging, blocking, or using stealth before or as it’s coming.

Ideally, you would be someone who tries the build I put together. I have no stake or interest in WvW. I’m just an sPvPer with an outside perspective for you to consider. You, however, do having something to gain. This is a chance to take a build you like and work in one of the more rewarding aspects of thief game play with interrupts. Were suggestions and new perspective not part of what you were hoping for when you made this thread?

babazhook.6805:

Perplexity runes were changed an no longer benefit off interrupts. The confusion now comes when a heal used so you have to be in range when you use that heal or it wasted.

depending how one fights I find I will swap spider venom for ID quite often. Ie SV really works better in a group. Added to that SV , unlike ID can be applied using another attack. So as example the sneak attack with SV loaded gets 5 bleeds 5 poison in that single attack whereas in a build using ID you need to do a separate attack (blockable etc).

In a more traditional DD condi build using the Impaling trait , venoms can be loaded off your dodges which can turn that dodge into a nice spike of conditions.

Unlike a d/d build which has high base bleeds , a build uysing p/X for conditions tends to need higher durations as the base on the sneak attack is rather low. Gievn the AA applies bleeds , a higher duration can allow more of these to stack even outside the sneak attack apps making it harder for the enemy just to run the timer out on them.

Nightmare runes seem like a solid alternative to perplexity runes then (for the additioal interrupt). Aren’t condition duration traits and sigils largely redundant with the +40% condition duration food?

Food only applies 20 percent durations. Given the base of the AA bleed is 4 seconds 20 percent duration will not even get an extra tick off the bleed. With the AA one can get off about 2 shots each second meaning 2 bleeds added per second. That means at base you can never get more then 8 bleeds via the AA. (this the theoretical limit and bleeds apps will in fact be lower with no base duration add)

With longer durations the AA can act as condition pressure between cleanses and in particular when your steal app and or ini runs down.

If we look at steal it a 5 second duration Confusion base with BA meaning the Condition duration food will just add one second. By getting more duration that confusion steal will last longer.

A lot of times once you apply all these conditions the target will try and “run them out” by avoiding combat for a few seconds rather then use up a cleanse. They just can not afford to do that with those long durations.

This then helps with your other conditions one big one being Weakness. If you can get your weakness/vuln/cripple durations all up in durations, cleanses are much less effective and the underlying damage conditions they that are doing the damage can tick for longer.

Obviously this does not work as well in a Zerg fight where other parties will add cleanses but the longer durations does not give up a lot in the way of damage even there.

Another thing more condition duration via traits/sigils armor and runes does is free up that food slot for something that can be as effective. Ie the Might on dodge food for yet more endurance or the mussel type foods which add boon duration along with 10 percent damage mitigation.

Vavume.8065:

Well clearly you do not understand where I am coming from, you have already jumped to your own conclusions, so lets just leave it at that because nothing positive is coming from this conversation.

If you have your own build idea’s feel free to make your own thread and post it.

It’s true – I don’t understand. This is why I asked questions. This is why I’m continuing to ask questions. Conclusions are not phrased in the form of a question.

Is this for a pat on the back? I think P/P bound is by far the best setup for a ranged condi thief build. Well done for using this setup over P/D!

For a discussion on P/P bound condi thief builds? This kind of discussion would involve suggestions, criticism, explanations for build choices, and possibly answering questions.

For some other reasons? I’m drawing a blank at the moment about what those could be. Maybe you can educate me?

babazhook.6805:

Food only applies 20 percent durations. Given the base of the AA bleed is 4 seconds 20 percent duration will not even get an extra tick off the bleed. With the AA one can get off about 2 shots each second meaning 2 bleeds added per second. That means at base you can never get more then 8 bleeds via the AA. (this the theoretical limit and bleeds apps will in fact be lower with no base duration add)

With longer durations the AA can act as condition pressure between cleanses and in particular when your steal app and or ini runs down.

If we look at steal it a 5 second duration Confusion base with BA meaning the Condition duration food will just add one second. By getting more duration that confusion steal will last longer.

A lot of times once you apply all these conditions the target will try and “run them out” by avoiding combat for a few seconds rather then use up a cleanse. They just can not afford to do that with those long durations.

This then helps with your other conditions one big one being Weakness. If you can get your weakness/vuln/cripple durations all up in durations, cleanses are much less effective and the underlying damage conditions they that are doing the damage can tick for longer.

Obviously this does not work as well in a Zerg fight where other parties will add cleanses but the longer durations does not give up a lot in the way of damage even there.

Another thing more condition duration via traits/sigils armor and runes does is free up that food slot for something that can be as effective. Ie the Might on dodge food for yet more endurance or the mussel type foods which add boon duration along with 10 percent damage mitigation.

What condi duration percentage would you say is the sweet spot where it’s long enough to extend condi duration but not so long that cleanses make it worse than alternatives?

A condi P/P build with PI and the interrupt sigil might work with the duration provided by krait runes alone. In that build, the Sneak Attacks, AAs, and their bleeds are mainly just filler. It wouldn’t use confusion on steal because the main punches are interrupts and Impairing Daggers.

Shorter duration high damage condis benefit far more from duration than lower damage longer duration condis.

Cleanse will matter relatively more for longer duration condis. Of course this can be mitigated by knowing what the cleanse method your opponent is using is or knowing that you can use enough cover condi to mitigate their cleanse.

On any damaging condition I look for a base of at least 7 seconds. This can generally best deal with the cooldowns of the respective classes on their cleanses. Once you get over 7 seconds the odds drop that the full duration will run.

You can not look at percentage. you have to look at raw duration. D/D as example has 10 second bleed base. That is plenty of duration. 50 percent more duration on d/d bleed adds more total seconds then 100 percent duration on the p/x bleed. For a bleed oriented build 50 percent on a d/d db build is overkill IMO and 50 percent duration for a p/x build is not enough. (This a reason I would not use KRAIT on d/d condition)

Obviously as saerni dated this would not apply to something like burns which is a high damage condition. Those you can do with less duration as the enemy tends to try and clean those rather then let them run till more stacks on.

SB obviously has even lower base durations but of you push poison to the max as example even that low base can put on some significant stacks if the enemy stays on the field and you use whirls or projectiles in it.

When using a condition build you can not ignore the effectiveness of longer weakness Vuln, crippled immobs and the like. Just as example #2 on the p/x set becomes very usable with higher immobs and vuln. The way I look at it with 100 percent duration you in essence get two Body shots for the same INI cost.

I

saerni.2584:

Shorter duration high damage condis benefit far more from duration than lower damage longer duration condis.

Cleanse will matter relatively more for longer duration condis. Of course this can be mitigated by knowing what the cleanse method your opponent is using is or knowing that you can use enough cover condi to mitigate their cleanse.

Of course but what’s an optimal amount of condition duration percentage overall? You guys have toyed around with going lower and higher, right?

My only experience is playing a D/D condi build when HoT came out and comparing wanderer’s amulet to rabid. Rabid, despite only having 150 more condi dmg and none of the 30ish% of condi duration of Wanderer’s, generally seemed better because of how common cleanses were.

The build is slow moving unless you take traveler runes, but if you do take them you don’t do enough damage. Not to mention you are kind of hosed if immobed/stunned at the wrong time. It has its moments though so I give it a 6.5 out of 10.

babazhook.6805:

On any damaging condition I look for a base of at least 7 seconds. This can generally best deal with the cooldowns of the respective classes on their cleanses. Once you get over 7 seconds the odds drop that the full duration will run.

You can not look at percentage. you have to look at raw duration. D/D as example has 10 second bleed base. That is plenty of duration. 50 percent more duration on d/d bleed adds more total seconds then 100 percent duration on the p/x bleed.

Obviously as saerni dated this would not apply to something like burns which is a high damage condition. Those you can do with less duration as the enemy tends to try and clean those rather then let them run till more stacks on.

SB obviously has even lower base durations but of you push poison to the max as example even that low base can put on some significant stacks if the enemy stays on the field and you use whirls or projectiles in it.

When using a condition build you can not ignore the effectiveness of longer weakness Vuln, crippled immobs and the like. Just as example #2 on either set becomes very usable with higher immobs and vuln. The way I look at it with 100 percent duration you in essence get two Body shots for the same INI cost.

Needing ~7 seconds minimum before diminishing returns would fit within my experience of condi duration being mostly unhelpful on D/D. Wouldn’t a P/P condi build need less condi duration than a P/D build to maintain similar condi pressure because it’s able to apply conditions more consistently by not needing melee range?

rennlc.7346:

babazhook.6805:

On any damaging condition I look for a base of at least 7 seconds. This can generally best deal with the cooldowns of the respective classes on their cleanses. Once you get over 7 seconds the odds drop that the full duration will run.

You can not look at percentage. you have to look at raw duration. D/D as example has 10 second bleed base. That is plenty of duration. 50 percent more duration on d/d bleed adds more total seconds then 100 percent duration on the p/x bleed.

Obviously as saerni dated this would not apply to something like burns which is a high damage condition. Those you can do with less duration as the enemy tends to try and clean those rather then let them run till more stacks on.

SB obviously has even lower base durations but of you push poison to the max as example even that low base can put on some significant stacks if the enemy stays on the field and you use whirls or projectiles in it.

When using a condition build you can not ignore the effectiveness of longer weakness Vuln, crippled immobs and the like. Just as example #2 on either set becomes very usable with higher immobs and vuln. The way I look at it with 100 percent duration you in essence get two Body shots for the same INI cost.

Needing ~7 seconds minimum before diminishing returns would fit within my experience of condi duration being mostly unhelpful on D/D. Wouldn’t a P/P condi build need less condi duration than a P/D build to maintain similar condi pressure because it’s able to apply conditions more consistently by not needing melee range?

P/P condition in my experience does not do well trying to get interrupts to work. I tried it and for INI spent the payoff not there. What I found worked best if I had INI to burn off was to apply a venom (or more) via unload and spike up the might for higher intensity stacks. This style more “bursty” can can use lower durations then P/d which has no might sources.

With p/d however you can get a real nice burst with steal (hidden thief) to apply confusion poison and weakness , sneak attack for 5 bleeds and than shadowstrike away for 2 torment. IF the changes added in pvp extend to WvW this will work even better.

A weakness of P/P is if you close range to do a steal it harder to reopen the gap and you pretty well need that gap for reliable stealth.

roamzero.9486:

The build is slow moving unless you take traveler runes, but if you do take them you don’t do enough damage. Not to mention you are kind of hosed if immobed/stunned at the wrong time. It has its moments though so I give it a 6.5 out of 10.

The build is indeed slow but for me personally mobility is a luxury I can live without, I am not in a rush to get anywhere, sure there are times people run from me and I can’t catch them (or they die running with conditions still on them) but most people do attempt to fight me to the death, maybe it’s because they have not encountered my build before and try to figure out how to counter it, or the fact that not everyone runs from a fight when low on health.

Shadowstep generally deals with any big stuns and if that is on cd I have enough vitaility and toughness to survive most damage while stunned. If you still feel you do not have enough stunbreak, maybe vs a war, then you can switch out refuge for bandit’s defense, since refuge is not essential in the build (I just like it)

In the case of an immob that could potentially kill me, then I can always switch to shortbow that has sigil of cleansing on it and remove it, I can shadowstep return to remove it or I can refuge myself and wait it out.

TLDR : Stuns and immobs are really not an issue for me, they can be easily dealt with by various means.

makes no sense to use p/p consider u dont even do any dmg with #3, better off with p/d. the time u wasted trying to interupt ppl u are better off with Power Condition build just use unload.