Guild Wars 2

Taxidriver.2043:

makes no sense to use p/p consider u dont even do any dmg with #3, better off with p/d. the time u wasted trying to interupt ppl u are better off with Power Condition build just use unload.

You wot m8.

babazhook.6805:

P/P condition in my experience does not do well trying to get interrupts to work. I tried it and for INI spent the payoff not there. What I found worked best if I had INI to burn off was to apply a venom (or more) via unload and spike up the might for higher intensity stacks. This style more “bursty” can can use lower durations then P/d which has no might sources.

With p/d however you can get a real nice burst with steal (hidden thief) to apply confusion poison and weakness , sneak attack for 5 bleeds and than shadowstrike away for 2 torment. IF the changes added in pvp extend to WvW this will work even better.

A weakness of P/P is if you close range to do a steal it harder to reopen the gap and you pretty well need that gap for reliable stealth.

I think you’d have plenty of initiative for interrupts as long as you don’t spam them. In Vavume’s video, he’s typically sitting at 3/4 of his total initiative. I’ve probably played more bound D/P than any other HoT thief build. When using Shadow Shot to land Backstabs, it’s a more initiative intensive build than Vavume’s. Nonetheless, I still have initiative to make use of Headshot when playing that build – I just can’t spam it. Similarly, a big reason to take PI and an interrupt sigil isn’t just for Headshot – it’s to have and boost the effectiveness of Sleight of Hand.

rennlc.7346:

babazhook.6805:

P/P condition in my experience does not do well trying to get interrupts to work. I tried it and for INI spent the payoff not there. What I found worked best if I had INI to burn off was to apply a venom (or more) via unload and spike up the might for higher intensity stacks. This style more “bursty” can can use lower durations then P/d which has no might sources.

With p/d however you can get a real nice burst with steal (hidden thief) to apply confusion poison and weakness , sneak attack for 5 bleeds and than shadowstrike away for 2 torment. IF the changes added in pvp extend to WvW this will work even better.

A weakness of P/P is if you close range to do a steal it harder to reopen the gap and you pretty well need that gap for reliable stealth.

I think you’d have plenty of initiative for interrupts as long as you don’t spam them. In Vavume’s video, he’s typically sitting at 3/4 of his total initiative. I’ve probably played more bound D/P than any other HoT thief build. When using Shadow Shot to land Backstabs, it’s a more initiative intensive build than Vavume’s. Nonetheless, I still have initiative to make use of Headshot when playing that build – I just can’t spam it. Similarly, a big reason to take PI and an interrupt sigil isn’t just for Headshot – it’s to have and boost the effectiveness of Sleight of Hand.

You are trapped in the power build mentality. I do not think you have tried this in a condition build.

I have two of my thiefs that currently use p/p power. I also went through the route of p/p condition. In that condition build i tried multiple iterations. The following is true.

SOH is of little use in condition and especially since perplexity runes changed. In the old build SOH could be used in lieu of BA and apply both confusion and Torment via pressure strike.

PI damage is too low to warrant taking. You are using a build with some 1000 less power and added to that one that takes advanate of few of the percent adds from the traitlines such as executioner or havoc mastery. You will be lucky to get a PI hit of 1k against heavier armors IF you get that interrupt and the sigil just does not add enough.

You are using a poor system to deliver any venoms you might have. As example if I use sneak attack to deliver a venom all the venom apps are made in a single attack whereas only one app made using PI. If I use Unload to deliver a venom I can deliver multiple venom stacks in one useage of INI and that unload will not be wasted if the person has Aegis up or the limited blocks meaning more will get through.

Number 2 is important to the build because of limited mobility. There are no ports to target like you have in d/p. The OP likely has low or limited access to swiftness meaning the enemy can easily run.

If there INI to spare , Unload and pistol 2 are a much better skill to use. The interrupt is used much less then in d/p power simply because there nothing you can do in a Condition focused build to generate the reward of a power based PI. It not efficient as a damage source and is used much more sparingly.

in the users build EA is used in conjunction with the stealth for cleanses. While I maintain you can get enough cleanses just with stealth and SE a sacrifice in condtion removal is exactly that and must be considered when weighed against what PI in a condition build has to offer which in my opinion is not enough.

Now I use PI in a power build. I know how useful it can be there but I just do not see it as having the same effectiveness in a condition build. You can and will use your interrupts to interrupt an opponents heal or rez of a downed but I feel overall there better uses of that INI.

It’s not a power build mentality – it’s an optimizing mentality. Both historically and currently speaking, optimizing a thief build, especially for sPvP, has meant and continues to mean playing power. If condi wasn’t still so limited in sPvP, I would happily play it. If I had a power mentality, I would not be so open to trying a feasibly strong and fun condi build.

I’ve never said Vavume should fundamentally alter his build nor that his build was certainly worse than other potential versions (although I can see how someone could interpret this meaning as being implied by saying “This is what I would try” and offering something different). I only stated how I would attempt to make and play a P/P condition build. Part of the changes are clearly preference. If I can win all the same fights playing carrion gear rather than dire or trailblazer’s, I’d rather play carrion simply because it’d make the fights end faster. Similarly, if I can accomplish similar pressure using 20 seconds CDs, such as steal with SoH and Impairing Daggers, over using 24-26 seconds CDs, such as confusion steal and spider venom, I’d rather play the shorter CDs because missing them is less consequential.

The PI damage might be too low to warrant it’s use but not for lack of power. If WvW had an equivalent to HotM and we could test gear freely, we could just check. However, if it is too low in practice, it wouldn’t be because it has 1000 less power. The build would need to be carrion gear (or preferably mercenaries but that appears to either never been implemented into WvW or removed when it was also removed from sPvP). With carrion, it looks like it would only be several hundred less power depending on the number bloodlust stacks of the power build you’re comparing this to. With +25% physical damage from Bound and Lead Attacks, this still has most of the damage modifiers a power build has.

The build I posted doesn’t use venoms (other than BV). It uses Impairing Daggers for a burst. The main reason I posted a PI version of a P/P condi build is partly because EA is so incredibly bad against good players. In WvW, this would seem to be even more extreme because you guys have more access to condi duration than players do in sPvP – condi builds have less reason to continue attacking you when some condis have landed. I understand it’s still likely to generally be the best option for a condi build with no power to augment PI, but this is why I would want to be able to try the build with carrion gear first.

I wish WvW had a HotM type of area to test gear (or better yet, no PvE gear grind at all). P/P condi with interrupts actually looks like it would fun for me to play.

There’s nothing stopping you from playing P/P ‘rupt, it just wouldn’t be the same build as posted here. You could mix Viper and Dire or Soldier+ Dire to get some of that power for PI and make a few other changes as needed to get full use out of PI and PS.

Obviously Vavume’s build is built around Sneak Attack instead of Head Shot, so it wouldn’t have the needed Head Shot support. I did try out some variations of P/P ‘rupt in HotM and I had a great time. There’s definitely something there, if not yet fully formed.

Ghotistyx.6942:

There’s nothing stopping you from playing P/P ‘rupt, it just wouldn’t be the same build as posted here. You could mix Viper and Dire or Soldier+ Dire to get some of that power for PI and make a few other changes as needed to get full use out of PI and PS.

Obviously Vavume’s build is built around Sneak Attack instead of Head Shot, so it wouldn’t have the needed Head Shot support. I did try out some variations of P/P ‘rupt in HotM and I had a great time. There’s definitely something there, if not yet fully formed.

I would lean towards hybrid favoring power over condition going that route, That said you still get a lot of mileage out of unload . Might stacked PIs , not needing to crit can hit very hard. I would forgo durations almost entirely going those course and do unload bursts after condition application to get them to tick harder.

A Hybrid p/p was in fact a build I have been tinkering with off and on over the past while. It wuld be a bit more viable were pressure strike upped with more torment (then you could do a pi/torment app at same time)

The biggest issue I always found was survival with the set. On pure power p/p you can count on spiking the enemy down quickly. This harder to do as power drops so as you lean to more conditions you need more vialtity toughness. It becomes a tug of war finding a sweet spot.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Obviously Vavume’s build is built around Sneak Attack instead of Head Shot, so it wouldn’t have the needed Head Shot support. I did try out some variations of P/P ‘rupt in HotM and I had a great time. There’s definitely something there, if not yet fully formed.

Yeah, I understand the concept – it’s what bugs me. To me, the entire point of the initiative mechanic is to be able to overload someone with damaging abilities, like proccing panic strike on a staff build and finishing them with two vaults while they can’t move or landing a back stab and finishing someone by using my remaining initiative to interrupt their heal(s). In Vavume’s build, there’s nothing worthwhile to dump initiative into to finish someone off. It’s just BP-> Bound -> Sneak Attack until the next steal/venom burst.

All that extra initiative is useful for dropping a Body or Head Shot as needed, but if you absolutely need an ini dump then unload would by far be the best option. Increased damage in all cases.

I remember hating the reveal of Thief’s Pistols way back in development, but its by far my favorite weapon pair now. There’s now at least 3 distinct ways to play it, with only more on the way.

Yeah, you’re right. I’m so used to sPvP where Body Shot is generally awful. It could be okay with this build since it can be used from the blind field for an additional blinding shot. If fighting a class where the immob can stick, the immob prevents dodging the next Sneak Attack. Headshot, similarly, can be constructive without PI as long as the interrupts are done when condis are ticking away.

Ghotistyx.6942:

All that extra initiative is useful for dropping a Body or Head Shot as needed, but if you absolutely need an ini dump then unload would by far be the best option. Increased damage in all cases.

I remember hating the reveal of Thief’s Pistols way back in development, but its by far my favorite weapon pair now. There’s now at least 3 distinct ways to play it, with only more on the way.

It my favorite as well . The might stack unloads can add a lot to other weapon sets and in particular when you get some degree of boon duration. Fist flurry or Impact strike can be devastating when coupled with might stacks and this where you can really churn out some damage even after having expending most ini on your Unloads.

Might stacked SW is a lot of fun as it does upfront damage (which can crit) and follows with an interrupt which can proc a hard hitting PI. You can also use Might stacked bounds to great effect.

What I like here is coupling a sigil of intel on my other weapon set which means as soon as I get might stacked I swap over for three guaranteed crits. If you use impact strike here it pounds out huge damage

The build looks interesting, so I may try it, however it seems to have a couple of flaws:

1.) Ranged pressure: (ie LB/Staff druid. You can be outranged and classes like druid have the stealth and mobility to reposition)

2.) Medium to heavy condi pressure: (small condi pressure you can eat, if a p/p engi gets half of his rotation off, you will drop)

3.) CC chains: I understand immob/crip you can clear/eat, however any half decent berserker, scrapper, staff rev will make it hard for you

4.) Projectile hate. This will shut the build down hard (focus tempest, scrapper, guard/DH…etc) Even shield berserkers if they read your rotations and time it, then follow up with CC’s and you are toast.

Despite all of this, I still am intrigued enough to try this and tweak it enough to at least remove 2 of what i listed. Thanks for the build.

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

The build looks interesting, so I may try it, however it seems to have a couple of flaws:

1.) Ranged pressure: (ie LB/Staff druid. You can be outranged and classes like druid have the stealth and mobility to reposition)

2.) Medium to heavy condi pressure: (small condi pressure you can eat, if a p/p engi gets half of his rotation off, you will drop)

3.) CC chains: I understand immob/crip you can clear/eat, however any half decent berserker, scrapper, staff rev will make it hard for you

4.) Projectile hate. This will shut the build down hard (focus tempest, scrapper, guard/DH…etc) Even shield berserkers if they read your rotations and time it, then follow up with CC’s and you are toast.

Despite all of this, I still am intrigued enough to try this and tweak it enough to at least remove 2 of what i listed. Thanks for the build.

When you try the build you will find that :

1) No one is out ranging you since you can re stealth at will and reposition yourself within range.

2) I have 5 condi clears, Escapist absolution, Shadow embrace (which I can get access to easily) and then Hide in shadows and shadowstep, both of which can quickly counter heavy condi bombs, and sigil of cleansing on my bow, so this build is about as anti condi as you are ever going to find on a thief, condi builds cannot kill me, the only build that is an issue is condi reaper, due to them throwing my condi back on me.

3) Just switch refuge for bandit defence.

4) Yeah projectile hate is a problem.

For me the biggest flaw in the build is actually any other build that runs heavy condi clear, because that will neutralize whatever you do.

Vavume.8065:

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

The build looks interesting, so I may try it, however it seems to have a couple of flaws:

1.) Ranged pressure: (ie LB/Staff druid. You can be outranged and classes like druid have the stealth and mobility to reposition)

2.) Medium to heavy condi pressure: (small condi pressure you can eat, if a p/p engi gets half of his rotation off, you will drop)

3.) CC chains: I understand immob/crip you can clear/eat, however any half decent berserker, scrapper, staff rev will make it hard for you

4.) Projectile hate. This will shut the build down hard (focus tempest, scrapper, guard/DH…etc) Even shield berserkers if they read your rotations and time it, then follow up with CC’s and you are toast.

Despite all of this, I still am intrigued enough to try this and tweak it enough to at least remove 2 of what i listed. Thanks for the build.

When you try the build you will find that :

1) No one is out ranging you since you can re stealth at will and reposition yourself within range.

2) I have 5 condi clears, Escapist absolution, Shadow embrace (which I can get access to easily) and then Hide in shadows and shadowstep, both of which can quickly counter heavy condi bombs, and sigil of cleansing on my bow, so this build is about as anti condi as you are ever going to find on a thief, condi builds cannot kill me, the only build that is an issue is condi reaper, due to them throwing my condi back on me.

3) Just switch refuge for bandit defence.

4) Yeah projectile hate is a problem.

For me the biggest flaw in the build is actually any other build that runs heavy condi clear, because that will neutralize whatever you do.

I agree with some but not all:

1.) With the broken targeting system, any channeled attacks (such as rapid fire, unload…etc) will still connect when if you go stealth during it, thus possibly still downing you.

2.) With any condi build I play myself (obv not everyone plays the way I do) when I build condi builds, I build them for heavy sustain. I had this build tested by myself and a friend of mine, and mu non daredevil condi sustain was too much for the daredevil. (that and I tend time my bursts/bombs)

3.) going vs berserkers, BD will only get you so far as chain CC will still get you. Just needs to be timed after BD (this was part of my test)

4.) Agree

If it works for some, thats great and I hope to come across this as it is an interesting build. Like any build it has its weakness but it seems that its true to the daredevil way as 1 mistake and its game over. Imo, its too high of risk for the reward but i applaud someone making/tweaking a non meta build and I hope to see more from ya.

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

1.) With the broken targeting system, any channeled attacks (such as rapid fire, unload…etc) will still connect when if you go stealth during it, thus possibly still downing you.

I also have a channeled skill, sneak attack, which is a huge advantage when fighting other stealth classes (Thief, Mes, Engi, Ranger, Trap rune DH) so channeled skills are far more of a benefit to me than a disadvantage.

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

3.) going vs berserkers, BD will only get you so far as chain CC will still get you. Just needs to be timed after BD (this was part of my test)

Firstly my build is very tanky, getting caught in a cc is not game over, secondly, I can shadowstep out of it and shadowstep return out of another if within the time, then as I mentioned you could run bandit defence on top of that, and lets not forget DD has 3 dodges and PP is a blind spam machine, couple that with the fact that I steal the warriors resistance against the blind, so honestly if you get stunlocked to death with this build you deserve to lose, because it should not happen.

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

If it works for some, thats great and I hope to come across this as it is an interesting build. Like any build it has its weakness but it seems that its true to the daredevil way as 1 mistake and its game over. Imo, its too high of risk for the reward but i applaud someone making/tweaking a non meta build and I hope to see more from ya.

High risk? did you see the gear I run? full trailblazer, it tanks damage for days, if I was running sinister or viper I would understand your point.

Just wanted to thank Vavume for sharing his build.
It is a very balanced out, creative and effective build and i dont get why many here argue with its effectiveness.
I probably will never play it myself as im happy with my meta power d/p thief but there is simply nothing to say against this build.
Also it shows that a thief condi build doesnt have to be gimmicky (BP + bound is a bit gimmicky but not as bad as trapper).
My biggest complain would be the missing movement speed and the vulnerabilty to immobs and cripple but as ur build is tanky enough and has sufficient stealth access as well as shadowstep it is fine.
Just like for others it is too slow of a gameplay for me as well as too little of i-slice-ur-neck-open and rip u apart – the gameplay most players try to find when playing a thief.
Keep it up

Padd.1479:

Just like for others it is too slow of a gameplay for me as well as too little of i-slice-ur-neck-open and rip u apart – the gameplay most players try to find when playing a thief.
Keep it up

I totally understand, as I have previously mentioned I played zerk D/D for 3 years (vids of that also on my channel) and in the end I got kinda bored of riping people apart in 2 seconds :P

Hey Vavume, just wanted to let you know I’ve been trying out your build (albeit a bit different version) and I gotta say, I really like it for WvW. Thanks for the idea man.
Kudos!

Thank you for sharing, I just crafted HOPE and desperately need a PP Build to play