Guild Wars 2

Thoughts on this to improve P/P by reducing the dodge cost if the thief dodges during the channeling of unload. This would make it so that P/P users that forgo stealth options can dodge more while using unload to give them a sustainable defense and promote “bullet time” dodging play as long as they have initiative.

Could just give them a trait that increases endurance generation while wielding pistols. Maybe increases it based on how many pistols you are wielding so it isn’t useless for all builds except dual pistol.

Wouldn’t be a bad idea giving a dual function to one of our traits. The day I stepped away from thief to explore other professions I learned a strange truth that most of the thief traits are single functioned while others have a lot of double effects. Generally those effects are cooldown based which makes sense since thief doesn’t have a literal cooldown on each weapon skill but still. Not everything has to play out so simple as cooldowns often it can just tie to a particular kit.

I’d probably suggest putting such an effect into ankle shots because its a master trait and isn’t that attractive over things like critical haste or signet use. I’d go so far as to even tie the affect into the whole p/p kit tbh so it gets the defense it needs.

-Ankel shots: Critical hits with pistol skills have a chance to cripple foes. Dodging with dual pistols will apply an AoE blind. Cripple Chance 60%. Cripple duration 3 seconds. Cripple ICD 10 seconds. Blind duration 3 seconds. Blind radius of effect 180. Number of targets 2.

Only thing I wonder though is if the blind would be better placed from the location you dodge from instantly or where you land from the dodge roll. The idea is to give p/p the defense it lacks.

Ugh, I wish everyone would stop focusing on Unload so much for improvements to P/P. The problem with the set is that a.) Vital Shot sucks, and b.) other skills already can’t compete with Unload.

Just fix the Rune of Evasion set, so it grants Vigor on dodge, or on crit or some other bonus that actually helps you “Evade” more often. This rune set is so close to being something a P/P or even D/D Thief could use, but it just isn’t quite there yet, and it honestly doesn’t have real synergy with any class that I can think of except for maybe a few specific, niche, dodge-heavy Ranger builds, and even those guys aren’t using this set!

Otokomae.9356:

Just fix the Rune of Evasion set, so it grants Vigor on dodge, or on crit or some other bonus that actually helps you “Evade” more often. This rune set is so close to being something a P/P or even D/D Thief could use, but it just isn’t quite there yet, and it honestly doesn’t have real synergy with any class that I can think of except for maybe a few specific, niche, dodge-heavy Ranger builds, and even those guys aren’t using this set!

No build should be so centered on a rune set, that’s just lazy balancing.

NinjaEd.3946:

Otokomae.9356:

Just fix the Rune of Evasion set, so it grants Vigor on dodge, or on crit or some other bonus that actually helps you “Evade” more often. This rune set is so close to being something a P/P or even D/D Thief could use, but it just isn’t quite there yet, and it honestly doesn’t have real synergy with any class that I can think of except for maybe a few specific, niche, dodge-heavy Ranger builds, and even those guys aren’t using this set!

No build should be so centered on a rune set, that’s just lazy balancing.

I agree, and they’re already kind of doing this with traits. Some traits are blatantly overpowered to compensate for the underpowered skill they affect (I’m glaring at you, Venom Share). I like to call them Trait Taxes.

Einlanzer.1627:

Ugh, I wish everyone would stop focusing on Unload so much for improvements to P/P. The problem with the set is that a.) Vital Shot sucks, and b.) other skills already can’t compete with Unload.

I dunno. Unload is P/P’s signature move since it gains no stealthing benefits.

It’s kind of like trying to say dagger mainhand thieves need to stop focusing on backstab + #5, or s/d on FS + LS, or P/D on sneak attack and shadow strike, or S/P on pistol whip. It’s a signature move – this extends even beyond the scope of just the thief class (what’s a GS war without HB for damage, a sword mesmer without iLeap or BF, etc.).

I’d much rather see the set see some improvements to its signature move, especially when all of the P/X and Y/P variants are fine if not a little on the overly-strong side (looking at you, dire P/D), rather than trying to stumble on creating improvements to the entirety of thief’s weapon set skills.

Einlanzer.1627:

Ugh, I wish everyone would stop focusing on Unload so much for improvements to P/P. The problem with the set is that a.) Vital Shot sucks, and b.) other skills already can’t compete with Unload.

The problem is that you can’t buff any other p/p skills without also buffing p/d and d/p, which don’t need to be buffed. Unload is the only way to “fix” p/p.

mango.9267:

Einlanzer.1627:

Ugh, I wish everyone would stop focusing on Unload so much for improvements to P/P. The problem with the set is that a.) Vital Shot sucks, and b.) other skills already can’t compete with Unload.

The problem is that you can’t buff any other p/p skills without also buffing p/d and d/p, which don’t need to be buffed. Unload is the only way to “fix” p/p.

This gets argued a lot, but I just don’t think it’s as true as people assume. You see, the problem largely revolves around how much damage you’re forced to sacrifice if you do anything besides Unload spam. This indirectly makes everything else in the set useless, and is primarily caused by Vital Shot being poorly tuned, since Unload is an Initiative hog and has to carry DPS pretty much by itself.

D/P would obviously not be affected by a Vital Shot buff. As for P/D, it actually is a better griefing set than it is a damage set, and Vital Shot is still weak. The reason the set feels more solid than P/P is because it can access stealth and offers decent utility without sacrificing huge amounts of damage, mostly because of how its damage is weighted between different skills.

With that in mind, buffing Vital Shot would not impact P/D as much as it would impact P/P, and even if it did push the set over into OP territory it would be simple to tweak Sneak Attack to compensate.

The alternative is to improve the direct damage portion of the attack and reduce the bleed portion of Vital Shot, which would translate into a significant buff for P/P and a less significant nerf for P/D.

mango.9267:

Einlanzer.1627:

Ugh, I wish everyone would stop focusing on Unload so much for improvements to P/P. The problem with the set is that a.) Vital Shot sucks, and b.) other skills already can’t compete with Unload.

The problem is that you can’t buff any other p/p skills without also buffing p/d and d/p, which don’t need to be buffed. Unload is the only way to “fix” p/p.

They could look into the auto attack and body shot without making p/d OP and not effecting x/p OP.

First off body shot has seen some drastic changes to the point where you just dunno what anet wants the skill to do. Immobilize? Vuln stack? Nothing lasts long enough except for you to ensure a CnD hits which is for p/d then.They could make this a 2 part skill with a slightly different result such as:

Body shot: Fire a bola at your foe immobilizing them. For the next 3 seconds, each projectile against this target will apply vulnerability. (effect does not stack in any way, only refreshes). Immobilize duration 1 second. Vulnerability duration 5 seconds per projectile(1 stack per projectile). Range reduced to 600 units.

Idea Make the skill function for either p/d or p/p. For p/d you can continue to secure a CnD and also fire off 5 vuln stacks and a little more. For p/p, you can stack heavy vulnerability stacks causing unload to become stronger the more hits it makes. As compensation for the buff, the range is slightly reduced with the idea that you’re shooting giant bolas from your pistol which is questionable on its own.

Vital shot/Sneak attack: Reduce the bleed duration on vital shot to 3 seconds. Increase the power on vital shot to ~160 base and increase the power coefficient to ~0.45. Increase the bleed duration on sneak attack to 5 seconds. Reduce the power coefficient on sneak attack to ~1.05.

Idea Relocate power into the auto attack since p/p doesn’t regularly have access to sneak attack. Relocated bleeding to sneak attack since p/d does have regular stealth access which can utilize it. Basically give the effects that each set has access to the most into the #1 skill.

Unload: Added effect while standing inside an ally combo field, all projectiles from this skill are 100%.

Idea synergy with bps and smoke screen and even SR after you pop sneak attack for a lengthy life steal. This however comes with the drawback of you staying in position of that combo field so it has a fairly basic counter.

Einlanzer.1627:

With that in mind, buffing Vital Shot would not impact P/D as much as it would impact P/P, and even if it did push the set over into OP territory it would be simple to tweak Sneak Attack to compensate.

NinjaEd.3946:

Idea Make the skill function for either p/d or p/p. For p/d you can continue to secure a CnD and also fire off 5 vuln stacks and a little more. For p/p, you can stack heavy vulnerability stacks causing unload to become stronger the more hits it makes. As compensation for the buff, the range is slightly reduced with the idea that you’re shooting giant bolas from your pistol which is questionable on its own.

Idea Relocate power into the auto attack since p/p doesn’t regularly have access to sneak attack. Relocated bleeding to sneak attack since p/d does have regular stealth access which can utilize it. Basically give the effects that each set has access to the most into the #1 skill.

I think all of these ideas miss the point. The problem with p/p isn’t the damage, which is honestly fine. The problem is the survivability. Even if you buff p/p dps, you’d end up with something like a killshot warrior, which does good burst damage, but is focused down extremely quickly.

What p/p needs to be viable is some kind of mobility or stealth mechanic on the 3 skill, perhaps an evade or a shadow step.

P/P is fine, the most it needs is some damage on Vital Shot or Head Shot. Other than that the build can 1v1 any class, and 1v2 just as well.

It has taken me two full weeks to learn how to play this spec properly, and now I reap the rewards of it. Evasion? Bowl of Orrian Truffle and Meat Stew is your friend.

Spvp? 2/2/0/4/6 , 2/6/0/6/0 , 2/0/0/6/6 or any of the builds below.

Learn to swap weapons often and kite. Combo your Black Powder and Smokescreen with Shortbow for stealth. Kite enemies around Smokescreen for multiple blinds. Time your daze properly

Please watch the video at the bottom of this post to get an idea.

Sample builds –
My Favorite –
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAqaVlsMp0pdPx6J8PNBNB5dY+SZ0KAdfk+OEA-TFCFwAl2fAwpA4qSQkKPE8EAQp+TSlYZ0HQKgqEGB-w

Build 2 – http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAqaVlsMp0pdPx6J8PNBNBt9wzQE8OMfpMaFAA-TFCFwAl2fAwpA4qSQkKPE8EAQp+TSlYZ0HQKgqUGB-w

Experimental – http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAqaVlsMp0pdPx6J8PNxLBtdzHxK0cBBozocYA-TFCFwAl2fAwpA4qSQkKPE8EAQp+TSlYZ0HQKgqUGB-w

Credits to Shponk for introducing me to this awesome build – Video link below –
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtkgXTpjbVo

mango.9267:

I think all of these ideas miss the point. The problem with p/p isn’t the damage, which is honestly fine. The problem is the survivability. Even if you buff p/p dps, you’d end up with something like a killshot warrior, which does good burst damage, but is focused down extremely quickly.

What p/p needs to be viable is some kind of mobility or stealth mechanic on the 3 skill, perhaps an evade or a shadow step.

There are methods of defense outside of p/p although a little built in defense would help. It is a damage problem, where you can’t put enough pressure to really use p/p effectively where it is comparable to (some) other professions. I’ve made a build that can create gap openers, keep bps out here and there and dish out a nasty 4-6k unload without feeling like I’m vulnerable for the next 8 seconds. It’s still very squishy however if the enemy has heavy mobility and does little against beefy targets who either soak up hits and recover or neglect my damage from either stealth or reflects or blocks/evades.

P/p does not need a strict damage buff, it needs functionality changes so the kit works on keeping high pressure.

mango.9267:

Einlanzer.1627:

With that in mind, buffing Vital Shot would not impact P/D as much as it would impact P/P, and even if it did push the set over into OP territory it would be simple to tweak Sneak Attack to compensate.

NinjaEd.3946:

Idea Make the skill function for either p/d or p/p. For p/d you can continue to secure a CnD and also fire off 5 vuln stacks and a little more. For p/p, you can stack heavy vulnerability stacks causing unload to become stronger the more hits it makes. As compensation for the buff, the range is slightly reduced with the idea that you’re shooting giant bolas from your pistol which is questionable on its own.

Idea Relocate power into the auto attack since p/p doesn’t regularly have access to sneak attack. Relocated bleeding to sneak attack since p/d does have regular stealth access which can utilize it. Basically give the effects that each set has access to the most into the #1 skill.

I think all of these ideas miss the point. The problem with p/p isn’t the damage, which is honestly fine. The problem is the survivability. Even if you buff p/p dps, you’d end up with something like a killshot warrior, which does good burst damage, but is focused down extremely quickly.

What p/p needs to be viable is some kind of mobility or stealth mechanic on the 3 skill, perhaps an evade or a shadow step.

The main reason that P/P lacks in survivability is because Unload hogs all the Initiative, putting you in the position of always having to choose between terrible damage and moderate utility or good damage and terrible utility, which is a bad choice that the latter will usually win on. The reason you’re left with this awful choice is mostly because Vital Shot is under-tuned.

Maybe the issue can be addressed via traits.

Just as example.

Deadly Arts MASTER When 2 pistols equipped gain 20 percent condition duration.

Critical Strikes MASTER Change Pistol mastery to “Gain 10 percent more damage for each equipped pistol”

Shadow arts When wielding two pistols gain stealth when taking a critical hit. (20 seconds cooldown) (Adept)

Acrobatics Gain 10 percent endurance regen when wielding two pistols. (Master)

Trickery (adept) Gain 25 percent movement speed when wielding two pistols.

P/d and D/p are not enhanced at all and some survival tools come to PP.

Just give Unload a Maxpayne dodge shooting style when trigger unload mid animation.So you can dodge and shoot without wasting endurance.

babazhook.6805:

Maybe the issue can be addressed via traits.

Just as example.

Deadly Arts MASTER When 2 pistols equipped gain 20 percent condition duration.

Critical Strikes MASTER Change Pistol mastery to “Gain 10 percent more damage for each equipped pistol”

Shadow arts When wielding two pistols gain stealth when taking a critical hit. (20 seconds cooldown) (Adept)

Acrobatics Gain 10 percent endurance regen when wielding two pistols. (Master)

Trickery (adept) Gain 25 percent movement speed when wielding two pistols.

P/d and D/p are not enhanced at all and some survival tools come to PP.

I don’t think balancing skillsets through traits should happen. The balance team already does this too much (like with Ricochet and Venom Share). When you do this, you create a “trait tax” problem, where taking a particular trait or set of traits is mandatory to make a set reach baseline functionality.

You shouldn’t need traits at all for a particular set to be usable; traits should always be a bonus. They badly need to address this with Venoms, honestly.

LONGA.1652:

Just give Unload a Maxpayne dodge shooting style when trigger unload mid animation.So you can dodge and shoot without wasting endurance.

The discussion is about P/P already relies too heavily on Unload to the point that playing it is essentially a #3 spam at all times. Any changes to address functionality problems need to occur on other skills, not Unload.

Einlanzer.1627:

babazhook.6805:

Maybe the issue can be addressed via traits.

Just as example.

Deadly Arts MASTER When 2 pistols equipped gain 20 percent condition duration.

Critical Strikes MASTER Change Pistol mastery to “Gain 10 percent more damage for each equipped pistol”

Shadow arts When wielding two pistols gain stealth when taking a critical hit. (20 seconds cooldown) (Adept)

Acrobatics Gain 10 percent endurance regen when wielding two pistols. (Master)

Trickery (adept) Gain 25 percent movement speed when wielding two pistols.

P/d and D/p are not enhanced at all and some survival tools come to PP.

I don’t think balancing skillsets through traits should happen. The balance team already does this too much (like with Ricochet and Venom Share). When you do this, you create a “trait tax” problem, where taking a particular trait or set of traits is mandatory to make a set reach baseline functionality.

You shouldn’t need traits at all for a particular set to be usable; traits should always be a bonus. They badly need to address this with Venoms, honestly.

I would disagree. Ricochet is a perfect example of how a trait can make a weapon set wrok better. As structured it is a GOOD thing.

All other classes have traits designed like this. Necros get more condition duration on scepters. Warriors have merciless hammer. Elementalists get more speed on dagger/dagger. Enigineers have traits that increase flamethrower damage and so on. I do not see these as causing the issues you suggest.

A change to pistol mastery as suggested would increase the dame of vital shot on the P/p set and do nothing for the p/d user and I think this a perfect solution.

Venomshare is not applicable in this instance as it is not specific to any one weapon set. Venoms can be used with any weapons. The issue with venomshare is the share itself. Your argument suggests you find an issue with taking the traits “Venomous strength” and " quick venoms as they do exactly to venoms what I suggest be done to the p/p set.

I see this as traits that work well with a specific build type.

babazhook.6805:

Einlanzer.1627:

babazhook.6805:

Maybe the issue can be addressed via traits.

Just as example.

Deadly Arts MASTER When 2 pistols equipped gain 20 percent condition duration.

Critical Strikes MASTER Change Pistol mastery to “Gain 10 percent more damage for each equipped pistol”

Shadow arts When wielding two pistols gain stealth when taking a critical hit. (20 seconds cooldown) (Adept)

Acrobatics Gain 10 percent endurance regen when wielding two pistols. (Master)

Trickery (adept) Gain 25 percent movement speed when wielding two pistols.

P/d and D/p are not enhanced at all and some survival tools come to PP.

I don’t think balancing skillsets through traits should happen. The balance team already does this too much (like with Ricochet and Venom Share). When you do this, you create a “trait tax” problem, where taking a particular trait or set of traits is mandatory to make a set reach baseline functionality.

You shouldn’t need traits at all for a particular set to be usable; traits should always be a bonus. They badly need to address this with Venoms, honestly.

I would disagree. Ricochet is a perfect example of how a trait can make a weapon set wrok better. As structured it is a GOOD thing.

All other classes have traits designed like this. Necros get more condition duration on scepters. Warriors have merciless hammer. Elementalists get more speed on dagger/dagger. Enigineers have traits that increase flamethrower damage and so on. I do not see these as causing the issues you suggest.

A change to pistol mastery as suggested would increase the dame of vital shot on the P/p set and do nothing for the p/d user and I think this a perfect solution.

Venomshare is not applicable in this instance as it is not specific to any one weapon set. Venoms can be used with any weapons. The issue with venomshare is the share itself. Your argument suggests you find an issue with taking the traits “Venomous strength” and " quick venoms as they do exactly to venoms what I suggest be done to the p/p set.

I see this as traits that work well with a specific build type.

You don’t understand. It is not an appropriate solution to balance an underpowered skill or set by strengthening the traits that apply to that skill or set. Making a trait too powerful ends up making it mandatory, which is something most people don’t want. It’s just not a good model for balancing the game.

Also, the Pistol Mastery trait already applies to direct damage only and not condition damage, so making it stronger will end up buffing Unload more than it buffs anything else, which is the opposite of what the set needs.

Issues with underpowered sets/skills should focus on the skill or set in question first for macro level changes, then use traits for micro level changes. The primary focus for traits should be to ensure that they are as well balanced with each other as possible. We should not have traits with radically different power levels.

>>You don’t understand. It is not an appropriate solution to balance an underpowered skill or set by strengthening the traits that apply to that skill or set. Making a trait too powerful ends up making it mandatory, which is something most people don’t want. It’s just not a good model for balancing the game.

I understand PERFECTLY what you are saying. I simply disagree.

Indeed enhancing a skill via traits is core to the game and in my opinion one of its strongest points.

Take the STEAL skill. If one does not trait for it the skill is not all that great. Many people who do not want to bother with steal do not feel forced to take the traits that enhance it.

Yet for those that choose to focus on STEAL as part of their builds there all manner of traits that can be taken that make it ever more powerful and this IMHO is one of the reasons I find Thief so rewarding as a class. Steal traited is a very powerful skill. This does not translate to “poor game design”. Indeed if steal made more powerful on its own , then all of those traits that make it even more powerful would have to be neutered. We already have people complaining about “useless traits”. I would hate to see that even more the case.

You spoke of Ricochet as an example of “bad game design”. On the contrary it a very well designed trait. I play p/p and p/d and in now way shape or form feel forced to take it. I DO take it depending on the type of build I want and the type of battles I feel I will be fighting on a given night.

If I think I will do a lot of 1v1 it becomes a pointless skill for any weaponset with a pistol. In these cases I will turn it off and trait for something like Sundering strikes.

When you call for the BASE skills of all the weapons to be enhanced wherein they all “stand alone” and traits become not more then some minor bonus , then you are calling for more generic and less diverse builds. It is those TRAITS we pick and choose that define our builds . You do not make choices as to what each of the weapon skills will do. They are assigned to you and will be no different then any other theif chosing the same weaponset. You DEFINE your build and make it different then everyone else via traits.

As to Pistol; mastery, the issue IMHO with the Auto attack on the pistol set is not the damage it does relative to unload. This is no more the case then the amount of damage done from the AA on a dagger attack when compared to a CND and Backstab.

The issue is the damage itself is just too low relative to all other weapon sets. Unload is still limited by INI use . The fundamental issue is that when one tries to save INI in a p/p set the AA is just NOT doing damage (in a power type build. a Condi build is different) enough to deal with heals/regens and the like.

babazhook.6805:

>>You don’t understand. It is not an appropriate solution to balance an underpowered skill or set by strengthening the traits that apply to that skill or set. Making a trait too powerful ends up making it mandatory, which is something most people don’t want. It’s just not a good model for balancing the game.

I understand PERFECTLY what you are saying. I simply disagree.

Indeed enhancing a skill via traits is core to the game and in my opinion one of its strongest points.

Take the STEAL skill. If one does not trait for it the skill is not all that great. Many people who do not want to bother with steal do not feel forced to take the traits that enhance it.

Yet for those that choose to focus on STEAL as part of their builds there all manner of traits that can be taken that make it ever more powerful and this IMHO is one of the reasons I find Thief so rewarding as a class. Steal traited is a very powerful skill. This does not translate to “poor game design”. Indeed if steal made more powerful on its own , then all of those traits that make it even more powerful would have to be neutered. We already have people complaining about “useless traits”. I would hate to see that even more the case.

You spoke of Ricochet as an example of “bad game design”. On the contrary it a very well designed trait. I play p/p and p/d and in now way shape or form feel forced to take it. I DO take it depending on the type of build I want and the type of battles I feel I will be fighting on a given night.

If I think I will do a lot of 1v1 it becomes a pointless skill for any weaponset with a pistol. In these cases I will turn it off and trait for something like Sundering strikes.

When you call for the BASE skills of all the weapons to be enhanced wherein they all “stand alone” and traits become not more then some minor bonus , then you are calling for more generic and less diverse builds. It is those TRAITS we pick and choose that define our builds . You do not make choices as to what each of the weapon skills will do. They are assigned to you and will be no different then any other theif chosing the same weaponset. You DEFINE your build and make it different then everyone else via traits.

As to Pistol; mastery, the issue IMHO with the Auto attack on the pistol set is not the damage it does relative to unload. This is no more the case then the amount of damage done from the AA on a dagger attack when compared to a CND and Backstab.

The issue is the damage itself is just too low relative to all other weapon sets. Unload is still limited by INI use . The fundamental issue is that when one tries to save INI in a p/p set the AA is just NOT doing damage (in a power type build. a Condi build is different) enough to deal with heals/regens and the like.

Literally nobody thinks that trait taxes are a good idea. The idea is not that traits should be weak, but that they should be balanced with each other. You should not have a trait that increases Sword damage by 10% then have Pistols be weaker for no good reason and have a trait that increases their damage by 20%. It doesn’t make any sense to balance the game that way.

Einlanzer.1627:

babazhook.6805:

>>You don’t understand. It is not an appropriate solution to balance an underpowered skill or set by strengthening the traits that apply to that skill or set. Making a trait too powerful ends up making it mandatory, which is something most people don’t want. It’s just not a good model for balancing the game.

I understand PERFECTLY what you are saying. I simply disagree.

Indeed enhancing a skill via traits is core to the game and in my opinion one of its strongest points.

Take the STEAL skill. If one does not trait for it the skill is not all that great. Many people who do not want to bother with steal do not feel forced to take the traits that enhance it.

Yet for those that choose to focus on STEAL as part of their builds there all manner of traits that can be taken that make it ever more powerful and this IMHO is one of the reasons I find Thief so rewarding as a class. Steal traited is a very powerful skill. This does not translate to “poor game design”. Indeed if steal made more powerful on its own , then all of those traits that make it even more powerful would have to be neutered. We already have people complaining about “useless traits”. I would hate to see that even more the case.

You spoke of Ricochet as an example of “bad game design”. On the contrary it a very well designed trait. I play p/p and p/d and in now way shape or form feel forced to take it. I DO take it depending on the type of build I want and the type of battles I feel I will be fighting on a given night.

If I think I will do a lot of 1v1 it becomes a pointless skill for any weaponset with a pistol. In these cases I will turn it off and trait for something like Sundering strikes.

When you call for the BASE skills of all the weapons to be enhanced wherein they all “stand alone” and traits become not more then some minor bonus , then you are calling for more generic and less diverse builds. It is those TRAITS we pick and choose that define our builds . You do not make choices as to what each of the weapon skills will do. They are assigned to you and will be no different then any other theif chosing the same weaponset. You DEFINE your build and make it different then everyone else via traits.

As to Pistol; mastery, the issue IMHO with the Auto attack on the pistol set is not the damage it does relative to unload. This is no more the case then the amount of damage done from the AA on a dagger attack when compared to a CND and Backstab.

The issue is the damage itself is just too low relative to all other weapon sets. Unload is still limited by INI use . The fundamental issue is that when one tries to save INI in a p/p set the AA is just NOT doing damage (in a power type build. a Condi build is different) enough to deal with heals/regens and the like.

Literally nobody thinks that trait taxes are a good idea. The idea is not that traits should be weak, but that they should be balanced with each other. You should not have a trait that increases Sword damage by 10% then have Pistols be weaker for no good reason and have a trait that increases their damage by 20%. It doesn’t make any sense to balance the game that way.

>>Literally nobody thinks that trait taxes are a good idea. The idea is not that traits should be weak, but that they should be balanced with each other. You should not have a trait that increases Sword damage by 10% then have Pistols be weaker for no good reason and have a trait that increases their damage by 20%. It doesn’t make any sense to balance the game that way.

I disagree entirely. LOOK at the model. The examples exist everywhere.

I will give examples.

Conditions inflicted by scepter skills have increased durations. (lingering curse)

This is the exact suggestion I made for the P/P set in the DA tree. I do not see Necromancers arguing against this skill.

Pistol mastery Increases pistol damage by 10 percent THIEF SKILL

Compared to dagger mastery THIEF skill.

So why is one 10 percent and the other 5 percent? It because the base damage of pistols is lower.

There is no reason the same logic can not apply to using dual pistols over p/d. The P/d set allows a stealth which then allows that sneak attack which has a higher base damage then does the VITAL shot.

Windborne dagger Elementalist skill

Wielding a dagger in BOTH hands adds 25 percent movement speed. Weilding one dagger only gives 15 percent more speed!

How is that different in theory then a proposal for more speed when wielding two pistols?

ALL of my suggestions already have a like traits in game used to enhance a particular weapon set over another. No other person I know of argues for their removal. Can you please point me to the arguments claiming these should be removed from the game?

I really do not understand the point you try and make. Each and ever profession has a number of traits that are directed towards ONE weapon set over another and each and every one of those professions will use them or not in order to enhance that weapon set.

It is the availability of those CHOICES that makes the game work and not trying to make all base weapon skills the equal of each other from a damage point of view.

babazhook.6805:

>>Literally nobody thinks that trait taxes are a good idea. The idea is not that traits should be weak, but that they should be balanced with each other. You should not have a trait that increases Sword damage by 10% then have Pistols be weaker for no good reason and have a trait that increases their damage by 20%. It doesn’t make any sense to balance the game that way.

I disagree entirely. LOOK at the model. The examples exist everywhere.

I will give examples.

Conditions inflicted by scepter skills have increased durations. (lingering curse)

This is the exact suggestion I made for the P/P set in the DA tree. I do not see Necromancers arguing against this skill.

Pistol mastery Increases pistol damage by 10 percent THIEF SKILL

Compared to dagger mastery THIEF skill.

So why is one 10 percent and the other 5 percent? It because the base damage of pistols is lower.

There is no reason the same logic can not apply to using dual pistols over p/d. The P/d set allows a stealth which then allows that sneak attack which has a higher base damage then does the VITAL shot.

Windborne dagger Elementalist skill

Wielding a dagger in BOTH hands adds 25 percent movement speed. Weilding one dagger only gives 15 percent more speed!

How is that different in theory then a proposal for more speed when wielding two pistols?

ALL of my suggestions already have a like traits in game used to enhance a particular weapon set over another. No other person I know of argues for their removal. Can you please point me to the arguments claiming these should be removed from the game?

I really do not understand the point you try and make. Each and ever profession has a number of traits that are directed towards ONE weapon set over another and each and every one of those professions will use them or not in order to enhance that weapon set.

It is the availability of those CHOICES that makes the game work and not trying to make all base weapon skills the equal of each other from a damage point of view.

You are not understanding my point, at all. Try to carefully reread what I posted above.

As an aside, Pistol Mastery used to be 5% just like Dagger Mastery was, then everyone rightfully complained about how weak Pistols were, and instead of balancing the set properly through retuning the skills, they just lazily added 5% more to Pistol Mastery. That is exactly what I’m talking about. It’s a bad balance paradigm.

I have never heard of a single person other than you who likes the idea of mandatory traits. I don’t know what else to say to you. I feel like you’re arguing out of pride.

>>I have never heard of a single person other than you who likes the idea of mandatory traits. I don’t know what else to say to you. I feel like you’re arguing out of pride.

Absolutely immaterial and irrelevant to the topic at hand. Game design should not be a popularity contest. When I get online in WvW the qq’s regarding thieves are overwhelming with most calling for more nerfs. This does not mean they all must be correct and I the wrong one out of “pride”.

You are simply ignoring the realities of the game in virtually every rebuttal and are short on specifics while long on generalizations.

Let us speak to the TWO existing thief PISTOL traits.

These are Pistol mastery and Ricochet.

NEITHER of these skills are mandatory in any thief build. Neither are a tax on any thief build. They are both nice enhancements that can help make a weapon set using a pistol more attractive but they are NOT mandatory.

The statement “I have never heard of a single person other than you who likes the idea of mandatory traits” is straw man as I have never called for any trait to be mandatory.

Please point to any post I ever made where I suggested mandatory traits.

NONE of the trait enhancements suggested by me in any way shape or form would be mandatory.

All would be nice enhancements that would open up more diversity in builds but no one would be feel forced to take an extra 20 percent condition duration or more movement speed or more direct damage or a stealth on a 20 second cool down.

Contrary to POPULAR wisdom and another reason I am not just going to go along with the rest of the crowd , PP is not a broken weapon set. It has solid damage. It lacks somewhat in mobility and defenses which can be addressed through traits without making said traits mandatory.

I use p/p each and every night. It very close. I currently am NOT using Ricochet or Pistol mastery in my builds. They are NOT mandatory.

“It lacks somewhat in mobility and defenses which can be addressed through traits without making said traits mandatory.”

So you aim to address an issue with a weaponset by adding traits that fix the issue, and then claim that those traits would then not be mandatory? Forgive me for finding this reasoning mind-numbingly stupid.

Popular opinion is usually popular for a reason, and in this case it is a proper reason. P/P IS broken. It does not “somewhat” lack mobility – it literally has none. Zero. Its only option to defend itself is to totally starve your initiative for a now-pathetic, miniscule blind field or be lucky to interrupt one or two hits with Head Shot. Any attempt at using these defenses will leave you room for one, two Unloads at best before significant downtime. Any success found with the set is from either facing terrible players or from skills/builds completely unrelated to the weapon set itself, because the set is objectively, unarguably garbage.

Traits are not the answer. The skillset itself needs an overhaul in order to stand on its own.

Auesis.7301:

“It lacks somewhat in mobility and defenses which can be addressed through traits without making said traits mandatory.”

So you aim to address an issue with a weaponset by adding traits that fix the issue, and then claim that those traits would then not be mandatory? Forgive me for finding this reasoning mind-numbingly stupid.

Popular opinion is usually popular for a reason, and in this case it is a proper reason. P/P IS broken. It does not “somewhat” lack mobility – it literally has none. Zero. Its only option to defend itself is to totally starve your initiative for a now-pathetic, miniscule blind field or be lucky to interrupt one or two hits with Head Shot. Any attempt at using these defenses will leave you room for one, two Unloads at best before significant downtime. Any success found with the set is from either facing terrible players or from skills/builds completely unrelated to the weapon set itself, because the set is objectively, unarguably garbage.

Traits are not the answer. The skillset itself needs an overhaul in order to stand on its own.

Forgive me for finding your response “mind numbingly stupid”.

I suggest you take your weapons into PvP or WvW and use no traits. See how long they “stand on their own”. You will not be able to damage a warrior or guardian enough to get past their healing.

There is a reason to put withdraw/rfi/shadowstep and the like on ones utility bar. There is a reason for smoke field. There is a reason for feline grace and caltrops. There a reason for uncatchable . All of these help enhance particular weaponsets. Some work better with one set then with others..

When I use p/d condition I have little need for RFI . I get better use out of blinding powder. When I use a backstab build I do not use SOM as ones rate of attacks are just not high enough to justify it.

You can dodge you know. You can use RFI for another 6 INI. You can use withdraw or shadowstep none costing ini each creating gaps along with other benefits. .You have venoms that can apply CC. If you think firing off blinding powder is all that can save you then you will not be saved. The “nerf” to blinding powder did not affect me one whit because I did not rely on it as much as others seem to have.

Tonight I ran for 5 hours straight in WvW. I used P/P no stealth. I was not downed a single time in that 5 hours and emptied bags several times over. We fought zergs larger and smaller. Our sides were wiped and we wiped. The only pistol trait I used was ricochet. I escaped battle after battle with the P/P set using skills available to anyone.

I doubt very highly every player I encountered on the opposing team was a NOOB. That is a cheap copout used by people who can not make a proper argument. “everyone you kill must be a noob”. I highly doubt each and every player I met was “terrible” and I do not consider myself a “great” player. If I can do it there are players far better then me that certainly can. The problem is far too many people rely on the words of others rather then trying things out for themselves.

As to “popular opinion” it brought us Taco bell and macdonalds and songs like “don’t worry be happy”. Forgive me if I do not think that food those establishments sell all that great or that the song some work of genius.

Thanks for claiming so many things I’ve never said that it was actually physically painful to read.

First of all, I never said every weaponset can operate without traits. I said that attempting to fix a weaponset’s core issues by adding traits AND THEN SAYING YOU DON’T NEED THOSE TRAITS is ridiculous. Those 2 statements are the exact opposite of each other. “Oh, here’s your solution to this problem. You don’t need the solution, though!”

You’re also ignoring this – other weaponsets actually have skills that stand alone to sustain themselves in a significant way, without required investment from other places or the use of utilities. S/D and D/D have evades, teleport (S/x) and stealth right on the skill bar. P/D has an escape built in to an offensive maneuver and stealth. D/P can combo with itself for stealth and constantly teleport-chase with blinds to boot. Shortbow has evasion and teleports. S/P has a metric ton of evasion. P/P has NONE of these things. That is the crux of this issue – everything about P/P’s skillset is absolute garbage, and any attempts to dance around this problem via rebalancing traits or covering its crapness with utilities is avoiding that issue. Ignoring the fact that P/P lacks literally everything from other sets, then pigeon-holing yourself in a very specific way build-wise in order to hide that is just plain stupidity. A weaponset HAS to have a solid range from the get-go in order for significantly varied usage.

5 hours bumbling about in zerg warfare without dying. OUTSTANDING. Is this supposed to be some kind of feat, since any Thief with a brain screwed on should be able to do that with whatever the hell they want to use? This proves literally nothing. Show me video evidence of combat that actually matters like small skirmishes so that we can see just how much the weapon skills actually contribute (almost guaranteed to be very, very little) or, better yet, show me some tPvP and see how long you last before you implode or just how much you can contribute to the team fight compared to someone using the usual Panic Strike D/P, S/D etc.

Stop being a hipster and accept P/P’s flaws – they are objective, unarguable.

>>irst of all, I never said every weaponset can operate without traits. I said that attempting to fix a weaponset’s core issues by adding traits AND THEN SAYING YOU DON’T NEED THOSE TRAITS is ridiculous. Those 2 statements are the exact opposite of each other. “Oh, here’s your solution to this problem. You don’t need the solution, though!”

Saying I “do not need those traits” is not ridiculous in the least. I play p/p and I do not use them.. Got it? I PLAY the weaponset NOW with the existing traits and skill set and do fine with it. Got it!?

Did you read my post? I said p/p is VERY close. I said P/p is a viable set. I said that more flavor could be added to P/p was all that was needed to make it more attractive to other players and more attractive over other weapon sets.

>>5 hours bumbling about in zerg warfare without dying. OUTSTANDING. Is this supposed to be some kind of feat, since any Thief with a brain screwed on should be able to do that with whatever the hell they want to use? This proves literally nothing.

Oh just listen to yourself. I stated there was zergs and non zergs. I stated we got wiped and were wiped. I was in 1 vs 3s and 3 vs 1’s I was in large scale battles and small. Every type that you can imagine. This is no stealth and armor of 2100. I was speaking to the claim that it was “not survivable” due to lack of teleports or the uselessness of the blinds. I did not use "stealth " to get away when 5+ more chasing me down after a zerg wiped. I did not switch to another weaponset. So how did I do that several times over with “no mobility and no ability to defend oneself”?

You sir made the claim that P/p not viable because it only worked against trash players. Arrogant to the extreme. You sir claimed that its lack of defenses and mobility outside the blind translated to no ability to defend oneself. I called you on that and gave my example. There are ways of defending oneself outside ones weaponset.

See , I rarely use that blind. 6 ini for a blind is silly. I don’t use head shot to defend myself. I use it like as needed to interrupt a heal or a downing of another player.

There are other defensive tools available. Use them. P/P is weak on them so more have to be used. So what? P/d gets its defense through stealth. I am not using stealth. Why would I care about the stealth available to d/d when I do not use stealth? P/d and d/d do not have a lot in the way of defenses over and above p/p when one not using stealth.

As to not adding anything to the battle. Oh please. I know perfectly well what was added to the battle. A single unload can do 10K plus in damage EASILY. try it sometimes. Watch what it does as you unload on a guy rezzing his downed pal manning a ram at your keeps doors. You get two dead enemy and a wiped flame ram in short order.

>>Stop being a hipster and accept P/P’s flaws – they are objective, unarguable.

You do not play the set I do. You have not made it work I have. Your comment is thus neither objective or unarguable.

Incorrect. P/P has no skill that grants any mobility. It has no skill that grants evasion. You can either interrupt one or two attacks or overspend on a blind field which, as you said, is rare. By its own merit, it is a sitting duck set.

It is an inarguable fact that the skillset, in a vaccuum, is subpar to every other set available to a Thief. This is all I have been trying to say. Every time you talk, every time you describe how you are using the set, you are in agreement with this statement.

>You get two dead enemy and a wiped flame ram in short order.

I wasn’t aware that there were flame rams in tournament PvP. Perhaps you could re-read what I asked for.

Also, can I just clarify that I am talking about NEW traits that you are proposing. I am NOT talking about Ricochet or Pistol Mastery.

“Deadly Arts MASTER When 2 pistols equipped gain 20 percent condition duration.
Critical Strikes MASTER Change Pistol mastery to “Gain 10 percent more damage for each equipped pistol”
Shadow arts When wielding two pistols gain stealth when taking a critical hit. (20 seconds cooldown) (Adept)
Acrobatics Gain 10 percent endurance regen when wielding two pistols. (Master)
Trickery (adept) Gain 25 percent movement speed when wielding two pistols.”

This. These are new traits that exist to solve a problem with P/P. This is what I am saying is the completely wrong approach. Rather than seek to change the set itself to allow diversity of usage, you would pigeon-hole more popular usage of the weaponset in to a very specific set of new traits in order to strengthen it. Before you mention anything about similiar traits with other classes, I disagree with ALL of those design choices as well. Weapons should be strong in their own right, with utilities and traits being supplementary and defining playstyle instead of viability.

>>Incorrect. P/P has no skill that grants any mobility. It has no skill that grants evasion. You can either interrupt one or two attacks or overspend on a blind field which, as you said, is rare. By its own merit, it is a sitting duck set.

Go through every weapon set on every other class. All of them have sets of weapons lacking in mobility. So what? You work around that. Not every weaponet has to have identical mobility.

Again.

I do not take ALL Pistol traits now. Why on earth do you think I would take all of the others proposed?

Why?

What it would allow is people to pick and choose more traits and then remove Skills from the utility bar no longer needed.

As example 25 percent more movement speed when two pistols equipped.

You do NOT have to take this. But this will give an advantage over the P/d user who slots “Signet of shadows”. There are a pile of people that take travellers runes oor movement of speed to get that extra speed. Add it with two pistols and this gives those persons options of other runesets.

Let us look at “add 20 percent condition duration when two pistols equipped”

This skill does not exist now yet the p/d set does fine. The P/d user generally uses Krait runes or foods to get that added duration. They have no reason to chose P/P over p/d in a condition build.

Add that trait and it will open the possibility of building a condition build around that added duration and using some other rune for defensive purposes. IE P/P with trapper runes.

Gain stealth on being critically hit when two pistols wielded. Again this an OPTION. It not required but now a p/p user can get that stealth and those cleanses without having to fill the toolbar with skills that add them such as blinding powder.

It does not become something mandatory but an option opening up more varied rune sets and skill usage on a utility bar.

“Endurance regen when two pistols equipped”.

Ok maybe I do not want a p/p condition build. Maybe I do not want stealth. Maybe I do not care about 25 percent speed. Maybe I want to dodge dodge dodge. P/d cant do it like p/p can with this skill. D/p cant. S/d cant. It hardly means one HAS to take it.

the P/P set when compared and d/p has only ONE unique skill. P/d and D/p are fine as is. You can not fix P/P by adding everything to that one unique skill and you can not just layer more power into p/d and d/p or P/P gains NOTHING relative to them and there still no reason to use it.

You’re still missing the point. You’re adding traits that focus on strengthening a specific weaponset. This is a philosophy I vehemently disagree with across the whole game. I don’t care if it’s optional. If you want to strengthen your weapons and your playstyle for those weapons, your choice of build is mostly going to be limited to those traits rather than traits like Sleight of Hand or Shadow Rejuvenation or Hidden Killer, the kind of traits that are more open-ended and can be applied and used on a broader spectrum of weapons and playstyles.

In order for this to work, weapons need to have strength in their own right, and shouldn’t require significant trait investment to become a competitive choice. Traits should mostly determine HOW you play, now WHAT you play. For example, you can use D/P and D/D in the exact same Critical Strike + Shadow Arts trait spread and be effective. What changes is how you play, with D/D being generally more offensive to land more C+D and D/P being more independent from interaction with the opponent in order to access regular Stealth. In neither of these builds are there specific modifiers to a Dagger or Pistol or to any skills for either or both of them. Same with 26006. You can fulfill the same role of the trait spread with either S/P or D/P or even S/D if you really wanted to. Right there, you can see that D/P fulfills 2 entirely separate roles in 2 separate builds (and very well, at that) without any need to specifically focus on the set itself.

If there are fundamental issues with a weaponset, the first plan of action should be to look at what the skills themselves have to offer. If this requires significant overhauls across the board (worse so for Thieves due to the Dual skill system), then so be it. It’s fine to have a couple of traits that fulfill this purpose, but not a gazillion of them such that you must take them all to be fully effective and have pretty much no room for variation left over ie. extreme pigeonholing. This is one of the key issues with Venomshare at the moment, requiring a minimum of 10 trait points to bring out any real strength when focusing on Venoms.

>>You’re still missing the point. You’re adding traits that focus on strengthening a specific weaponset. This is a philosophy I vehemently disagree with across the whole game. I don’t care if it’s optional. If you want to strengthen your weapons and your playstyle for those weapons, your choice of build is mostly going to be limited to those traits rather than traits like Sleight of Hand or Shadow Rejuvenation or Hidden Killer, the kind of traits that are more open-ended and can be applied and used on a broader spectrum of weapons and playstyles.

I am NOT missing that point at all. I understand perfectly what you are expressing.

This does not make me stupid or suggest I only fight scrubs. Nor does it mean I do not understand the issues with the P/P set.

There a HUGE number of traits that address a specific weaponset on every single profession. I prefer this method because all of the TRAITS are by CHOICE and not fixed into a weapon set. I prefer a game where a specific weapon attribute can be enhanced by a players choices.

I have played these games a long long time where both of those design philosophies used and prefer the ones that allow the player to make his or her own build over those that have the bulk of the build assigned by a fixed inflexible parameter.

The latter leads to builds that have little in the way of variance and little in the way of player input. They come WITH the risk of balance issues and I prefer to deal with those as they are discovered.

If we wished we could have one class and fix all weapon skills so they are the same in mobility and damage and utility. That IMHO would destroy the game. When people say “P/d is garbage” as they once did or “P/P is trash and unviable” I am challenged to make builds using TRAIT choices that prove them wrong. I do not want design choices all handled by the system. I want variance.

Your example of skills that fit any weapon set such as executioner makes my point and does not rebut it. EVERYONE will take that skill because EVERYONE benefits the same from it no matter the weaponset. Any two builds designed around the skill will be all but identical.

I do not think that makes for diverse game design.

Now there are those that prefer the type of game you suggest. I understand where they are coming from. I understand they might prefer that type of game. I am allowed to disagree.

In essence you are not asking for enhancements to P/P. Given there already traits that enhance specific weapons like hammers and greatswords and longbows and daggers and scepters and staffs, you are asking for an entirely different game.

“If we wished we could have one class and fix all weapon skills so they are the same in mobility and damage and utility. That IMHO would destroy the game.”

At no point have I said that the game should be homogenized in this way. It’s perfectly possible for every weaponset to be at comparable levels of usefulness and also have individual flavors.

I’d just like to repeat the following:

“It’s fine to have a couple of traits that fulfill this purpose, but not a gazillion of them such that you must take them all to be fully effective and have pretty much no room for variation left over ie. extreme pigeonholing. This is one of the key issues with Venomshare at the moment, requiring a minimum of 10 trait points to bring out any real strength when focusing on Venoms.”

>>“It’s fine to have a couple of traits that fulfill this purpose, but not a gazillion of them such that you must take them all to be fully effective and have pretty much no room for variation left over ie. extreme pigeonholing. This is one of the key issues with Venomshare at the moment, requiring a minimum of 10 trait points to bring out any real strength when focusing on Venoms.”

Again of the skills I proposed you do not have to take ANY to make p/p effective. This is not the same as venomshare.

You do not have to take them all. You can take one or two or maybe three or NONE.

You can make up for what is lacking in mobility as I do now with utilities such as RFI shadowstep and Withdraw and simply ignore those suggested.

What you continue to miss is that I play P/P now with what exists now. It is not garbage. I also see more and more thieves in WvW using it. I am after variance of play and design and the fun factor and not “The single most effective build”

For very much the same reasons I used Deathblossom in condition builds even as players continue to claim it as “Garbage”.

I’m not directly equating the two things. I’m pointing out what happens when you reach the extreme end of accommodating weaknesses via trait investment.

As for the rest, speaking in personal experience, every single P/P Thief I’ve ever met has been an easy kill, and I’m not seeing an increase in popularity either. I’d like to be proven wrong, but they have literally never posed a challenge to any class I play should they appear. Hell, I usually pop some Retaliation on my Guardian and they kill themselves without making a dent.

wall of texts back to back causing….

>>As for the rest, speaking in personal experience, every single P/P Thief I’ve ever met has been an easy kill, and I’m not seeing an increase in popularity either. I’d like to be proven wrong, but they have literally never posed a challenge to any class I play should they appear. Hell, I usually pop some Retaliation on my Guardian and they kill themselves without making a dent.

Oh I HAVE encountered those retal guardians. There is a way to deal with them while still dishing out that damage.

There are again the very skills people dismiss as garbage. You can get a 380 point heal of each strike of a venom. 350 point heal off Omnomberry ghost and more healing off traits like IP, or Assassins reward if traited.

And a BTW. Those rangers all declare op with Rapid fire? They come out second best to Unload every time I have encountered them IF I can close that range which can be easy or difficult depending on the player and circumstances.

Retal guardians are not the ones I have most trouble with. Back stab thieves can be nasty and to be frank , no matter the build or class when there a really really good player that can stealth at will, dodge at will and just seems to know everything you are going to do those as well.

That is not build related. Those kind of deaths happen to me no matter which thief build I use. I will say however that as I come to rely less on stealth and traits that come with weapon sets like the build in evades and teleports, the rest of my game does improve over what it was a year ago.

In general terms if one wants to win with a PP build one has to put the pressure on early and continue to press. Trying to reset via stealth is a bad idea.

We are in essence discussing balance versus diversity.

In very general terms the more balance in the game the less diversity and the more diversity the less balance. I tend to favor being on the diversity side of the spectrum just because it allows for greater value in what I want from a game. That is NOT finding that one perfect and most effective build but seeing how many builds I can come up with and play with.

I might try Runes of evasion next

Would it be so wrong to have “per pistol equiped” traits?

Pistol Mastery
+10% per pistol

Ricochet
+150 range per pistol

These things won’t affect DP or PD and I’m guessing it’s easier to try via traits than changing the set itself.

Also, maybe they could explore the mechanic guards use with soj where they burn their target every 4th hit. This would mostly benefit DD and PP (to some extent PD) only.

Another off the top of my head would be “consecutive crits”. The more consecutive crits you deal, the more <something beneficial> you get.

Seetoo.9316:

Would it be so wrong to have “per pistol equiped” traits?

Pistol Mastery
+10% per pistol

Ricochet
+150 range per pistol

These things won’t affect DP or PD and I’m guessing it’s easier to try via traits than changing the set itself.

Also, maybe they could explore the mechanic guards use with soj where they burn their target every 4th hit. This would mostly benefit DD and PP (to some extent PD) only.

Another off the top of my head would be “consecutive crits”. The more consecutive crits you deal, the more <something beneficial> you get.

Yes this the very thing I am suggesting. Thanks for that though as it lays the rest the notion I am the only person in the game who thinks this the solution

A Plus on “Per equipped pistol” IMHO is ideal.

They also need more traits that behave like corruption skills on necromancer. You lose something in exchange for something more powerful tailored to your build rather than some hilt or bowstring or handle upgrade some games used.

In the simplest way, look at some sigils. You can honestly cover a lot of your damage from some of them, you can cover condi removal (crit and non crit), you can drastically boost your condi durations, etc. It’s like 1 way campaign missions where things are just too obvious for the set up and don’t allow abstract decisions which gets in the way of build diversity in this game.

So to get to what I’m trying to say, to possibly fix up some of the rather useless traits that every profession has maybe complicate some of them with ups and downs, along with per-(insert pre-requisite here) bonus effects, time effects similar to One with fire (better chance after X seconds), etc. Make things unique to the weapon and the trait line so the opportunity cost isn’t taken into such deep consideration when building.

This would help the mediocre builds and if there is any hope left, shake things up for some enjoyable builds instead of the stale kitten I’ve been seeing for months now. I do not speak for the majority of any game mode but I’m bored out of my mind with this game, nothing drastic changes in this 5-6 month balance patches which is incredibly depressing when you realize they’re still polishing the game after 2 years.

I’m glad someone else is thinking about necro corruptions.

Right now, traits are straight up buffs. Traits are either +1’s to any build that uses them or +0’s meaning you can’t use them. I would like to see +1-1 (net 0) .

Example
Pistol Mastery
+10% damage per pistol equiped, -10% damage per weapon that isn’t a pistol equiped

Well with P/P changing skills 1 and 2 will change P/D which is pretty good where its at. and changing skills 4 and 5 changes D/P which as well is pretty good where it stands. While P/D and D/P still need some minor tweaks imo, minor tweaks wont fix P/P. The only options left is to either change skill 3 or change up traits and or runes. I don’t like the rune idea because then the rune becomes mandatory…ewww. The thing about traits is any pistol related changes also changes play for P/D and D/P, making them stronger or weaker. In order to avoid this while changing traits we would have to make an “unload” specific trait. Which also becomes mandatory. So the only sure fire way to make everyone happy is to change unload.

Now the idea of unload is fine by me. When I first saw the skill it gave me that matrix/max payne vibe. I think we should delve deeper into that vibe. I read further up the idea of dodging while unload is being channeled. I kinda like this idea. All the 3 skills involve some type of evade, but its all built into the skill itself. Lets take the built in evade out (theoretically) and place it into the players hands. Basically you choose when you want to dodge during the channel by simply dodging the same way any other play does. One problem I can conjure up right now is that it sounds like id be using my regular dodges where with any other set up id be using my initiative. I can think of 2 counter buffs one which has already been stated.

1) Give a trait the passive endurance regeneration just like the ele’s dagger traits. The issue with this is that doing the buff by each individual pistol buffs D/P and P/D as well and maybe too much. So id suggest this trait to only work when both pistols are equipped. Which calls for a whole new trait. Doing this however makes the trait mandatory.

2) We could make the skill work like S/D’s FS→LS, where the unload uses a certain amount of initiative and the dodge uses more initiative if activated. The issue with this is unload already uses a big chunk of initiative, so maybe lower the initiative cost on unload and then add the evade option. But the issue with that is if you never dodge the unload skill becomes op as to how many times u can use it.

As you can see trying to patch this skill up is harder than thought to be. and a complete rework of the skill however necessary it may be just starts a whole new world of problems with the next “skill”. What do you guys think?

Right now, I’m against anything that changes the set.

Some random gunslinger gameplay from C9 I found for comparison. There’s some neat ideas in there.

http://youtu.be/0hxoMlg6Vvs

TeamBattleAxe.3901:

Some random gunslinger gameplay from C9 I found for comparison. There’s some neat ideas in there.

http://youtu.be/0hxoMlg6Vvs

I have heavenly and demonic memories of that game,every new class was OPer than others and the customer service went from best to horrible.

Loved it tough I use to main ranger,scout and war.

Sagat.3285:

TeamBattleAxe.3901:

Some random gunslinger gameplay from C9 I found for comparison. There’s some neat ideas in there.

http://youtu.be/0hxoMlg6Vvs

I have heavenly and demonic memories of that game,every new class was OPer than others and the customer service went from best to horrible.

Loved it tough I use to main ranger,scout and war.

I’d never heard of it until I found it on steam a couple of days ago. It’s a ton of fun so far, but I feel it’s way too late in that game’s life-cycle to really play it seriously. I just wish more mmo’s would adopt that combat style, though.

Anyways, just from the little bit of gameplay I’ve seen, C9 gunslingers have a couple of cool skills that might be worthy of discussion. There’s that aoe bullet spin (like a 0.25 second mini-daggerstorm), there’s another skill that damages all enemies in a short cone (would be useful since every p/p skill requires a target to hit), and there’s also that charged shot that roots the gunslinger but deals extra damage (like a shorter, weaker version of killshot). They even have a what looks like an old-school rocket jump. The playstyle is very fast and evasive and would be a healthy contrast to the rest of the thief builds we currently have.

I like reality so I can’t see this happening,the combat system is too different but I loved it despite the game’s current state.