Guild Wars 2

Weapon Set:
P/P

Objective:
- To add flavor and unique dual-wielding skills to a boring and monotonous weapon set.
- Replace all weapon skills from #1-#5 instead of just #3 for dual-wielding
- If not this, at least it serve as a foundation to other posibilities

Pros:
- Introduces new weapon skills exclusive to P/P set
- Introduces new attack animations that uses both weapons
- New skills are the ones we need as P/P users
- Skill balance to this set doesn’t affect P/x and x/P builds

Cons:
- Current P/P users may QQ
- I don’t care about the QQs

Reasoning:
- Current skills and animation to P/P is boring and unflavorful.
- Unique: Dual-wielding is unique to the Thieves profession in GW2. Other classes may be able to equip the same type of weapons in each hand, but the dual-wielding mechanic does not apply to those profession
- Flavor: The game need to take into consideration that both hands has the same type of weapons, meaning in the hands of the Thief, it will fire from both as an auto-attack
- Flavor: The ability of the Thief to dual-wield should allow the profession to use both weapon when performing a weapon skill

The Skills:

#1) Cover Fire
- 0.5s casting time for each hand
- Fire rate of 0.25s per shot
- Initial pre-cast animation for aiming, but stay at aiming position as long as the auto-attack is active
- After pre-cast, it shoots like a slow motion version of Unload
- Stacks vulnerability upto 5 stacks
- Stacks bleeding upto 5 stacks if target has atleast 5 stack of vulnerability

#2) Double-up
- 0.75s casting time
- Aiming animation
- Fire both weapons simultenously
- One weapon aims at the head, the other at the body
- Daze target
- Weaken target
- 0.25s Recoil animation after shot

#3) Unload
- Same as current Unload
- New effect: Push distance of 10
- Push distance of 10 ensures that the target cannot come any closer to the Thief by normal means

#4) Spray and Pray
- Channeled skill: 0.75s
- Uses both weapon to fire a cone AoE in front of the Thief
- 9 shots per pistol, total 16 shots

#5) Drifter’s Guile
- Chain skill
- Leap backwards
- Shoot target with main hand on the leg while airborn. Cripples target
- Shoot landing area with off-hand causing a Shadow’s Refuge for 1s

#1-Stealth) Temple Aim
- Uses both weapons aimed at the head
- Applies 5 stacks of Bleed
- Positional effects:
- Front: Blinds
- Side: Dazes
- Back: Stuns

Comments:
- This is just an idea that can improve the quality of life of those who are using P/P – like me.
- If this idea is so far fetched, then I hope that it can serve as a foundation to other better ideas.
- The posibilities are endless and sure enough, there’s a lot of room for improvements.
- If we currently cannot have fun in game due to issues we have experience, let’s have fun brainstorming ideas.

Seems overpowered having so many CC’s on one weapon set

How about changing Body Shot

From:
Damage: 168
Vulnerability: 6 s
Combo Finisher: Physical Projectile
Range: 900

To:
Skill name: Recoil
Skill description: Recoil backwards from your foe, crippling them:
Cost: 3 initiative
Damage: 168
Cripple: 2s
Combo Finisher: Leap
Range: 600

So on demand stealth = Black Powder + Retreat

Very similar to dagger/pistol Black Powder + Heartseeker except that it leaps backwards to escape melee targets.

Plus an increase the firing speed on #1.

Is… that… Daecollo on disguise? O.o

Anyway, that simply isn’t comming. Too many CCs, and the set breaks how the game works. There aren’t dual skill in any slot that isn’t the third one. That auto-attack also breaks how the game works with first skills in general and is crazy OP and very weird at the same time tracking X stacks of certain condition to then apply a different one… Oh, and your stealth attack for the set… compare it to our current stealth attacks, specially Tactical Strike… wow… just wow… Certainly not comming. I though Daecollo had a special talent for this things but turns out there are some sugestions crazier than the ones he makes :P

The only thing P/P needs is a fix to Body Shot to make it synergize with Black Powder, for example by making it a spread attack or simply deal more damage close to the target so it is better at close range than Unload and you use BP to cover you as going melee comes with many risks, or making it a blast finisher on your feet (the recoil explosion or something, it could be changed to push, but not KD/interrupt instead of applying vulns) changing the effect of the skill or something so it can combo with BP.

There are other ways, but most times it’s as simple as making BS synergize with BP so there is an alternative to 33333333333. Once that is done, adding a very small duration Weaknes to Unload (0.5 seconds per bullet hitting for example) so it offers some defensive utility could be nice too, but that’s just a maybe.

There is no need to create a whole set that completly breaks the rules of this game about weapons when a simple fix could make it really interesting. I agree P/P needs attention as right now it’s a boring spam of 3 that isn’t even that great, but what you sugested is way too OP and can’t be implemented in this game mechanics.

Lokheit.7943:

There is no need to create a whole set that completly breaks the rules of this game about weapons when a simple fix could make it really interesting. I agree P/P needs attention as right now it’s a boring spam of 3 that isn’t even that great, but what you sugested is way too OP and can’t be implemented in this game mechanics.

Thank you for taking the time to post but it doesn’t seems like you have read what I’ve posted at all.

The auto-attack fire rate did not change. That is the same fire rate as Vital Shot if and when it get fixed. The stacking of vulnerability and bleeding is part of the flavor for this set. Also there’s no “too many CC”…how many is too many? Compare to a S/P weapon set, where you have access to 4 CCs this weapon set doesn’t have that many — it only have 3.

Nevertheless, thank you for your time — I just wish that you actually read it and understand it.

9 shots per pistol , total of 16 shots made me giggle a little lol

Personally i think thieves should have been designed with all of skills on every set with dual wielding in mind, or at least the off-hand skills.

He definitely added alot of flavour. I think this would make up for the lack of power pistols have.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Thank you for taking the time to post but it doesn’t seems like you have read what I’ve posted at all.

The auto-attack fire rate did not change. That is the same fire rate as Vital Shot if and when it get fixed. The stacking of vulnerability and bleeding is part of the flavor for this set. Also there’s no “too many CC”…how many is too many? Compare to a S/P weapon set, where you have access to 4 CCs this weapon set doesn’t have that many — it only have 3.

Nevertheless, thank you for your time — I just wish that you actually read it and understand it.

Emmmmmm since you decided if someone said it was OP it was because he didn’t read it, I guess I will take them one by one and show how crazy all of them are…

1. Cover Fire
   - 0.5s casting time for each hand
   - Fire rate of 0.25s per shot
   - Initial pre-cast animation for aiming, but stay at aiming position as long as the auto-attack is active
   - After pre-cast, it shoots like a slow motion version of Unload
   - Stacks vulnerability upto 5 stacks
   - Stacks bleeding upto 5 stacks if target has atleast 5 stack of vulnerability

You’re sugesting something that isn’t in the game. If pistols were considered a 2 handed weapon in this game, like daggers were in GW1, it could make sense, but you’re using both weapons in the auto-attack.

Then the timing you wrote is expressed in a way that can be taken in many ways. What exactly do you mean with the whole process? What do you mean with 0.5 casting time per hand? One after the other? Does it remain with both pistols aiming and not shooting, in that stance? Anyway, this is NOT how auto-attacks (or attacks in general that I can recall) work in this game. You’re basically trying to auto-attack with a poor version of Unload so it looks pretty for the eye, but this isn’t how the game works.

And the conditions part tracking an specific condition up to X, then starting to apply another different one… not happening, sorry but it isn’t happening. Again this isn’t how the game works internally, much less an auto-attack. You’re transforming something that should be the simplest thing on any weapon into something complicated. The devs already stated than condition stacking consumes a lot of resources, imagine tracking your specific 5 vulns to the apply bleeds if there are more than 5 for each Pistol Thief around. And if it’s 5 vulns in general, it’s meaningless as most times it’s bleeding… so if your intention was for it to have Vital Shot speed (every attack has aftercast delay so what you sugested is really much faster than what Vital Shot would be) why not keep VS as it is instead of complicating things?

1. Double-up
   - 0.75s casting time
   - Aiming animation
   - Fire both weapons simultenously
   - One weapon aims at the head, the other at the body
   - Daze target
   - Weaken target
   - 0.25s Recoil animation after shot

Again using both weapons for a main hand skill (I’m going to say this in every skill, not happening, it would create the need of making separate main hand and offhand skills for every combination, P/P is a combination of 2 weapons, it isn’t a 2 handed set with an specific set of skills). The only exception in the game is Warrior’s Axe #4, and Warriors only have melee 1 handed weapons. In this case the Thief would hold a dagger and shoot bullets with it in a P/D set.

And… daze+weakness on a #2 skill? Really? You’re making our #2 skill cost 6 initiative? because there isn’t any other way to do this and 6 initiative for the second skill that should be the cheapest is just wrong. If you intended for it to cost 3 initaitive like other #2 skills this is just wrong.

1. Unload
   - Same as current Unload
   - New effect: Push distance of 10
   - Push distance of 10 ensures that the target cannot come any closer to the Thief by normal means

Not happening either (at least this time shooting with both weapons is justified). While the distance is ridiculous low (8*10 is less than what a melee arc can reach), being pushed means not moving, so you can basically paralyze an opponent all the time just by shooting at him. Crazy OP. You target someone, that someone’s direction keys won’t respond, leaving him exposed in place (when you’re pushed even if you’re not interrupted, the movement animation needs to start again and you’re reseting it 8 times, and then 8 again and again keeping him in place). Not to mention having to process 8 pushes everytime you use the skill killing resources and causing lag.

With too many CCs I didn’t mean to much variety (and there is variety), I meant being able to make anyone your b***tch and perma lock him with ranged attacks.

Continue in next post.

1. Spray and Pray
   - Channeled skill: 0.75s
   - Uses both weapon to fire a cone AoE in front of the Thief
   - 9 shots per pistol, total 16 shots

I guess you misstyped and it’s either 8 shots per pistol or total of 18 shots. Anyway… 16 shots in 0.75 seconds and you still don’t know how OP this is and how exploitable it is? Really?

Oh, and I forgot to mention, using both weapons to shoot at the same time in a #4 skill. This is not how the game works.

1. Drifter’s Guile
   - Chain skill
   - Leap backwards
   - Shoot target with main hand on the leg while airborn. Cripples target
   - Shoot landing area with off-hand causing a Shadow’s Refuge for 1s

So basically you:
- Evade.
- Open a gap.
- Stealth unconditionally. All stealths either have a cooldown (generally long) or have a condition like needing to hit with a melee attack or blowing most initiative in a combo starter + combo finisher (and this one is considered to be really powerful even with all the initiative it wastes).

What would be the initiative cost of this? All your ini bar? Unconditional stealth is too OP by itself. Uncondition stealth with gap opener and cripple is ridiculous.

And… well, you know, not happening as you’re using both weapons.

#1-Stealth) Temple Aim
- Uses both weapons aimed at the head
- Applies 5 stacks of Bleed
- Positional effects:
- Front: Blinds
- Side: Dazes
- Back: Stuns

And… well… this one… You retain the effects from Sneak Attack, and then, with a Ranged attack, which makes maneuvers much easier as you don’t have to close gaps, you give it effects BETTER than Tactical Strike (without losing Sneak Attack effect)… and on top of that on a set with an unconditional stealth that aditionally cripples the target (not to mention you use both weapons for the sake of it… not how this works).

Ok, even if for a moment we would consider P/P a 2 handed set with its own 5 unique skills, tell me why we would pick any set that isn’t this one? It’s soooooo crazy it would be plain stupid to pick anything else. It is OP for Berserkers, Carrion, Soldiers… I could even play Cleric without using healing at all just for the sake of it and still dominate anyone.

You suffer a bit from something really common, that is having a vision of how cool it looks in your mind and then post it without thinking the ingame repercussions just because you think it would be incredibly cool. Of course it would be cool, but it’s crazy OP and breaks how the game works. Not to mention than using both weapons in every single skill is overdoing it too much, specially when every single skill can be spammed and most times it could be done with a single Pistol.

In a game where every combination of weapons would be its own set and everything would be as OP as this ones, it would be ok. But here you’re destroying how the game works, even if it wasn’t so OP you would need to create different skills for every weapon in every specific combination of weapons.

Anyway I hope this helps you see how OP this is and convinces you that indeed people not in your same opinion actually read the text instead of posting as personal misinformed attacks ignoring your text.

Lokheit.7943:

Emmmmmm since you decided if someone said it was OP it was because he didn’t read it… ~snip~

If you read all of it, instead of just focusing on the list of skills — you would not call it OP. By calling it OP, it shows that you have not read ALL of it.

You’re sugesting something that isn’t in the game… ~snip~

The animation is in the game. The timing is in the game. It’s just a matter of sewing the pieces together.

Then the timing you wrote is expressed in a way that can be taken in many ways… ~snip~

There is a pre-cast animation — meaning the thief will aim before firing. Once in that position, it will lock the position as long as the auto-attack is active. When the auto-attack is disrupted, either out of range or the thief turned around, the pre-cast animation will kick in again.

This is not different than what Vital Shot is, the only difference is, Vital Shot resets it’s animation every shot. Instead of firing bullets every 0.5s as the tooltip indicates, instead it is firing almost every second because of the pre-cast animation.

Besides, numbers can be adjusted. If that’s too fast of a fire rate, then make the activation higher. No need to call it OP since all you have to do is suggest what will make it balance.

And the conditions part tracking an specific condition up to X, then starting to apply another different one… not happening… ~snip~

You miss this part completely. This actually alleviate the stress on the tracking system because all this one does is check if there’s 5 or more stacks of vulnerability before applying bleed. The logic is this;

Do ApplyBleed AsLongAs VulnerabilityStack > 4 Otherwise ApplyVulnerability

EDIT: I meant “AsLongAs” not “Unless”

The maximum 5 bleed stacks means that each stack should have a certain duration that in a 0% buff condition duration will ensure that there will only have a maximum of 5 stacks of bleed. If the auto-attack will stack 5 bleeds in 2.5s, that’s like 5 shots, then each bleed stack should only last 2.5s that the first one will fall off as soon as the new one is applied. There’s no tracking needed to be done here, only a status check.

Again using both weapons for a main hand skill … ~snip~

Again, if you really have read my post, you should know that I have answered this question because this concern had already come up even before I made the post.

And… daze+weakness on a #2 skill? Really? You’re making our #2 skill cost 6 initiative? because there isn’t any other way to do this… ~snip~

That’s just a tad bit of exaggeration on the cost. If it makes it better, this skill can have a secondary skill that replaces the first one. The first one causing weakness for 2 init and the second skill causing daze for 3 init. The total cost will be the same with #2 Sword skill.

…being pushed means not moving, so you can basically paralyze an opponent all the time just by shooting at him… ~snip~

That’s not how push works. There’s too much exaggeration in your comments. This will simply function like a ward against the target. The push only happens when the target is moving towards the source of the resistance. It does not lock them in place nor paralyze.

Lokheit.7943:

I guess you misstyped and it’s either 8 shots per pistol or total of 18 shots.

Yeah it should be 8 shots, my left brain wants 9 shots but my right brain want 16 total. :/

Anyway… 16 shots in 0.75 seconds and you still don’t know how OP this is and how exploitable it is? Really?…~snip~

This is not 16 shots on one target, it is an AoE spread/cone. The angle of the cone can be adjusted to limit the number of shots that one can possibly take. So if you are standing to the right of the thief, you will only take 2 shots the most. But if you are standing dead center, the number of possible shot to hit you is 4-6 shots. Of course, a narrow angle will increase the probability of getting hit, so that’s why it needs to be adjusted over time to find the balance.

Each pistol will swing from outside-in firing 4 shots, then swing inside-out firing 4 shots.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, using both weapons to shoot at the same time in a #4 skill. This is not how the game works.

Again, this I’ve already answered. It is not to conform with it is now, it is to introduce a new way to improve the playstyle and kitten new features.

So basically you:
- Evade.
- Open a gap.
- Stealth unconditionally. All stealths either have a cooldown (generally long) or have a condition like needing to hit with a melee attack or blowing most initiative in a combo starter + combo finisher (and this one is considered to be really powerful even with all the initiative it wastes).

P/P needs a gap-maker and a source for stealth. It can cost 8 initiatives if that will make it balance. 4 init for the first skill, then 4 init of the stealth.

And… well… this one… You retain the effects from Sneak Attack, and then, with a Ranged attack, which makes maneuvers much easier as you don’t have to close gaps, you give it effects BETTER than Tactical Strike …~snip~

I disagree with this. Being in range makes it harder to position to get the best result for this Stealth Attack since you have a bigger circle to circumvent. Tactical Strike is a melee range that makes positioning easier to get the desired result.

Ok, even if for a moment we would consider P/P a 2 handed set with its own 5 unique skills, tell me why we would pick any set that isn’t this one? It’s soooooo crazy it would be plain stupid to pick anything else. It is OP for Berserkers, Carrion, Soldiers… I could even play Cleric without using healing at all just for the sake of it and still dominate anyone.

Nah, I highly doubt that. This weapon set doesn’t have the burst of D/x nor the boon stripping of S/D.

… how the game works…~snip~

You keep saying this yet you have not shown “how the game works”.

But thank you for taking the time to respond to all that.

With “how the game works” (and I already took time to explain what I mean, apparently I’m not the only one not reading…) I mean that in this game you don’t use offhand and main hand weapons at the same time for every attack. You can’t change it for a single weapon combination just because it would look cool on that combination. As I said, if we keep it this way, then on D/P or P/D there are animations where your dagger shoots bullets. If it works different for D/P, P/D and P/P then you’re breaking how the game works for the sake of overdoing the dual pistols concept when most skills in your sugestion could be done with a single one anyway. Not happening.

And the stealth attack… really are you trying to defend it? Tactical Strike is only melee range. Being ranged means you can either use it in melee like tactical strike, or target someone with his back to you up to 900 range. In this game all melee attacks are better than ranged counterparts. OF COURSE it’s better than Tactical Strike. It can do the same, with more effects (Stun instead of Daze plus 5 bleeds), at the same range, and also at 900 range. You’re combining the effects of 2 existing stealth attacks into the same one, and then making the result even better by changing daze for stun.

P/P migh need a gap opener, or a stealth access, but throwing all of it on the same skill, specially as an unconditional stealth (no needing to hit in melee or activating a combo) makes it too powerful. Unconditional stealth should cost at least 9 initiative (this is what combo stealth costs). Unconditional stealth + cripple + gap closer (what Shortbow #3 does) should deplete all your initiative. Even being usable only if you’re traited for 15 initiative.

The 16 shots is still 16 impacts in 0.75 seconds. This is SUPER EXPLOITABLE no matter if it’s a cone or not. And you can hit multiple targets. Really how are those pistols supposed to hit so much in 0.75 seconds? Change it to 5 spread bullets and put it on #2 slot instead of Body Shot (each bullet is 1 Vulnerability) and you might have something.

And the push works like that. Unless you go and change the game code for 1 single skill, it is how the game works. If it would be a really close range skill that pushes once it would be ok. A 900 range skill that keeps reseting your movement animation is just wrong no matter if it’s a “ward preventing him to move in your direction” (and good luck with the programming of that part). Even if it didn’t work like that, it would be incredibly annoying. You’re disturbing your target movement for the entire duration of the fight by spamming Unload. Being able to disturb movement all the fight (and that’s without mentioning that it’s a skill that aditionally does good damage) is crazy.

And the autoattack part. All attacks work this way with an aftercast animation, by making the auto-attack skip the aftercast for every consecutive shot you’re making it far more powerful than the other auto-attacks in the game.

Seriously, I’ve read all of it multiple times, it’s impossible to defend it. I could dominate anyone with any build spamming just 1 of those skills, then dominate him again using another one all the time.

Don’t take it as a personal attack, I’m just trying to advice you about thinking how something would affect the game before sugesting something so OP instead of just having a very cool vision of what you want and posting it, or the more you do it the less people will take those ideas seriously. I’m studying videogame design, I’m telling you from what I’ve learned over the years. When you want to introduce something in the game you have to consider how the game works from its root and follow its rules. And always try to have precedents for what you’re sugesting so it can be compared to other cases and balanced properly. Most of those skills can be spammed to win a fight just with that skill.

In the case of P/P set you don’t need to make separate rules for a single set breaking how the game works. As I’ve said before it’s as simple as improving Body Shot so it synergizes with Black Powder in some way and then you have some versatility on the set instead of a 3 spamming fest that is the main problem of the set.

Lokheit.7943:

With “how the game works” (and I already took time to explain what I mean, apparently I’m not the only one not reading…)

Actually, you took the time explaining how YOU think how the game works, but not how the game really works.

You can’t change it for a single weapon combination just because it would look cool on that combination.

Sigh…if you read my original post, I have taken this into consideration. Instead of reading what I have posted, you just keep repeating yourself.

TLDR: This doesn’t affect single weapon combination.

What you fail to grasp is how “dual-wielding” actually works in GW2.

Only thieves has the dual-wielding mechanic.

As I said, if we keep it this way, then on D/P or P/D there are animations where your dagger shoots bullets. ~snip~

This what happens when;
1) you fail to understand the point of this thread, and
2) when you don’t know “how the game works” in terms of dual-wielding

And the stealth attack… really are you trying to defend it? ~snip~

I simply exchange the damage for positional conditions. I didn’t do anything out of the ordinary. I don’t know why are you so worked up about it.

P/P migh need a gap opener, or a stealth access, but throwing all of it on the same skill, specially as an unconditional stealth (no needing to hit in melee or activating a combo) makes it too powerful. ~snip~

That’s just ridiculous. Using SB#3 as comparison is the worst since you can use that still at full range of 900. The idea of gap-maker is that it will require the target to be at point blank range — just like the Ranger’s LB skill #4 — but this will have maybe a range of 300.

And you’re over exaggerating the cost. I already address this if you bother reading.

The 16 shots is still 16 impacts in 0.75 seconds. This is SUPER EXPLOITABLE no matter if it’s a cone or not. And you can hit multiple targets. Really how are those pistols supposed to hit so much in 0.75 seconds?

Umm, by pulling the triggers really really fast just like what the Thief do when Unloading.

Change it to 5 spread bullets and put it on #2 slot instead of Body Shot (each bullet is 1 Vulnerability) and you might have something.

Well, that’s the point of this thread. If you think you can make it better, then do so, instead of just calling it “OP” and keep saying “not gonna happen”.

And the push works like that. Unless you go and change the game code for 1 single skill, it is how the game works. ~snip~

The push effect has one value — distance. By making the push distance really small, enough push to keep the distance but not enough to displace them. And yes, it’s for the annoying factor.

And the autoattack part. All attacks work this way with an aftercast animation, ~snip~

You got this one wrong. The after-cast shouldn’t be there in the first place because it interferes with the auto-attack fire rate. The intended fire rate for Vital Shot is 0.5s ( and SB #1 is 0.25s) but because of the pre-cast and after-cast animation, it is firing close to 1 bullet per second instead of 2 bullets per second (SB fires 1 arrow every 0.75s instead of every 0.25s).

Seriously, I’ve read all of it multiple times, it’s impossible to defend it. I could dominate anyone with any build spamming just 1 of those skills, then dominate him again using another one all the time.

I’m not so sure about that. With other alternatives to 333333333, you would play very differently by not wasting init.

Don’t take it as a personal attack, I’m just trying to advice you about thinking how something would affect the game before sugesting something so OP instead of just having a very cool vision of what you want and posting it, or the more you do it the less people will take those ideas seriously.

Oh no, I actually like your posts since it brought a different perspective on this idea.

I’m studying videogame design, I’m telling you from what I’ve learned over the years. When you want to introduce something in the game you have to consider how the game works from its root and follow its rules. ~snip~

In the case of P/P set you don’t need to make separate rules for a single set breaking how the game works. ~snip~

If you read my original post, this was not meant to be a suggestion, but a brainstorming tool — otherwise I would have posted it in the suggestion thread. I want to see if this is even feasible and efficient providing reasons from the oppositions.

The main problem with P/P right now is that you cannot make changes to improve it without harming the other P/x or x/P sets. So to deal with the P/P problem (giggles), we need to isolate it from the others.

Once the problem is isolated, we look into the tools we currently have. The dual-wielding mechanic of thieves can be expanded to give P/P some new skill set.

Then from that foundation, the sky’s the limit.