P/P changes
So investing trait points (and forcing you to invest on an specific trait line if you want to use P/P) just to change a skill beheaviour from condi to direct withou making it actually better, just more viable in a set? I don’t see it as a solution :S
P/P woes come from the time when they added Stealth Attacks to the game (before that Body Shot was the auto-attack applying 1 vuln per strike), but as they added those skills (that I hope some day are entirely removed from the game and the Thief is properly balanced instead of forced to specific playstyles to be effective), then they put bleed on the auto-attack as P/D would be useless otherwise, which damaged P/P synergy as we all know.
P/P main problems are the lack of synergy between the main attack and the main damage source, and how poor the cheap skill (Body Shot) is, which is mathematically garbage.
More problems would be the lack of either mobility or ways to decrease opponent mobility, and very little team support.
Something I’ve said other times in the thousand other P/P threads that I think will help solve those problems:
- Make each bullet on Unload have a 50% chance on bleeding and a 50% chance of very short Weakness. Reduce the direct damage from each bullet to compensate for the extra damage from the average of 4 bleeds. Even reducing it a little more than the average extra damage.
This way Unload synergizes with Vital Shot (making the set a condi set), and it offers team support if you keep shooting your foe (as the Weakness is very short you have to keep shooting so you can’t apply it once and switch target). Even if you’re not in a team-fight, it helps defend yourself against your target, something neccesary in a set that lacks stealth access. It also decreases opponent ability to dodge, which is one of the best ways to negate all damage from Unload.
Bleed makes sense because they’re bullets, weakness makes sense because the opponent is trying to advance through a torrent of bullets so his attacks will be hindered.
Then change Body Shot to a 130 (180 at max) range skill (so it’s actually a point blank body shot), remove all vulnerability and add a push effect (but no knock back or interrupt, only push).
This way P/P gets a mobility control skill to open distances with opponents, and as it can only be used in melee range, it doesn’t matter that you can use it multiple times as you need to cover the distance again to reuse the skill. And even then, it doesn’t interrupt your opponent, just open a distance with him, so it isn’t a hard CC and ranged foes will sniff at it, but at least helps you against heavy melee targets (perfect solution if a GS warrior manages to inmob you for example). It also is a good cover for Steal as P/P users put their life in dange when using this profession mechanic as they need to open space to survive.
Lastly, but not so neccesary if the other changes are implemented, it would be great if Black Powder was changed to ground targeted. BP is a good skill for melee Thieves, but it sucks if you use P/P and it’s not worth the 6 initiative in any imaginable way. Making it ground target helps with the Thief ability to support his team which is something P/P needs.
All this thrown together would make a good set, with identity (conditions) and options for team support, and not OP as for everything you change, yo take back something, like most of the direct damage from Unload, or making sure the new Body Shot can’t be abused with initiative by making it melee and not an interrupt. Maybe there are those that want a ranged direct damage set… that would be great for a future rifle as dual weapons are easier to balance as you don’t have to take into consideration weapon combinations and dual skills (P/P is so bad because of P/D).
P/P main problems are the lack of synergy between the main attack and the main damage source, and how poor the cheap skill (Body Shot) is, which is mathematically garbage.
More problems would be the lack of either mobility or ways to decrease opponent mobility, and very little team support.
Having shifted from a brief run at P/D and played P/P for a couple of weeks, my impression is that the main attack / main damage source synergy isn’t the problem – I think you’d be hard pressed to justify this based on the numbers. The problem is that the secondary skills, outside of unload, are not all that great.
Look at it this way: If you play P/D, you get a stealth, a cripple, and a gap opener. If you play shortbow, you get two gap openers and two AOEs. These are on top of what you choose for your heal and utility skills – if you decide to go with either mobility or stealth for these, you can back that choice up with weapon skills.
On the other hand, if you play P/P, you get direct damage burst. You also get an interrupt and black powder. The trouble is that you’re pouring the vast majority of your initiative into unload, so these might not be as available as you’d like, and that neither of them synergize with your heal and utility skills. P/P ends up being pretty much all about endurance and utility skill cooldown management, whereas in P/D and shortbow, you get more leeway (at the cost of no single target burst, I suppose).
- Dr Ebola
Been playing this for a bit now, and I have to say everything about this class is fine except the main #1 skill. Even 4 and 5 have uses during fights. #1 is just the issue. I can hit up to 5-6k on an unload chain, but my #1 shots range from 300-400 damage per shot, which is absolute garbage….
.:: FaTe ~ [SoS] ::.
@sas I didn’t mention how P/P ends up being 33333333 because we always say it (though it was implied when I said the set offeree no team support).
I also mentioned how Black Powder is only useful for melee sets (and that combined with Body Shot being mathematically pure garbage) means you use all your initiative on 3333333 and maybe, if you catch someone glowing blue, you use 4 to interrupt a heal here and there and that’s all.
The proposed changes mean that 2 is usable and helps opening space, 3 can still be spammed but now synergizes with 1 and offers some team support through weakness, and 5 could be used at range to support your team and being useful with a ranged set (so it is worth the 6 initiative which right now it is only worth it for melee sets).
Suddenly you can effectively spend initiative in any skill without wasting it on garbage and the set has good synergy as a condition set.
Another solution would be to get rid of the stealth attacks and completly rebalance all weapon sets so half of them aren’t dependant on 115115115 for stealth skills and the other half isn’t dependant on 333333 because the other skills were though for a different weapon combination.
I think the Thief would win a lot as a profession with stealth used as utility (the initial intent) rather than a neccesity to achieve max damage potential, rebalancing each weapon set accordingly (we can also have a SA trait named backstab that increases the damage while stealthed and flanked to keep the spirit of that one alive, as stealth skills were all forced into the game only to make backstab work that way).
Sorry Lokheit, I really don’t like those changes at all. You’d basically be left with a stealth less P/D. I don’t see the point.
P/P is supposed to be the direct damage, bursty ranged set. It currently doesn’t work because of the 1 being condition and the 2 being and complete waste of a keybind and 5 being kinda useless to avoid D/P being overpowered.
While the weapon set is clearly in need of a complete overhaul Anet clearly don’t care enough to bother (1 year and counting) so offering a trait to lose the bleed and up the direct would serve as a quick fix. So the trait feels worthwhile you could add something to it to make 2 less useless as well. Maybe some cripple or 1 sec immobilise?
Effortless change and add some much needed variety to the thief.
I’d prefer the engineer’s pistol auto-attack. Mini-AoE plus bleed. Faster rate of fire as well.
I’d prefer the engineer’s pistol auto-attack. Mini-AoE plus bleed. Faster rate of fire as well.
Never say that. Explosive shot is very likely the worst auto attack in the entire game.
In a side by side comparison it has less direct damage, half the bleed time, and even fires slower(both display 1/2 activation time, but explosive shot is really closer to 3/4)
calling it a mini-aoe is giving it too much credit. even when firing into a zerg you would be lucky to hit 2 people.
Sorry Lokheit, I really don’t like those changes at all. You’d basically be left with a stealth less P/D. I don’t see the point.
P/P is supposed to be the direct damage, bursty ranged set. It currently doesn’t work because of the 1 being condition and the 2 being and complete waste of a keybind and 5 being kinda useless to avoid D/P being overpowered.
While the weapon set is clearly in need of a complete overhaul Anet clearly don’t care enough to bother (1 year and counting) so offering a trait to lose the bleed and up the direct would serve as a quick fix. So the trait feels worthwhile you could add something to it to make 2 less useless as well. Maybe some cripple or 1 sec immobilise?
Effortless change and add some much needed variety to the thief.
If just being a condition set makes it a D/P without stealth, then all our melee direct damage sets are the same? :S (same for a lot of professions and weapon combinations).
It would be different, D/P would be more about bursting bleeds and covering it with other conditions like torment and cripple, taking risks as you need to get closer, P/P would be more about maintaining fire rate and supporting the team, without needing to get close to be effective.
The trait you’re proposing doesn’t have any precedent that I know (using a trait to remove a skill property and add damage to compensate for the loss) and I don’t think they would do something like that. Aditionally I don’t think the solution for a weapon set, short term or not, is “invest trait points so it isn’t garbage”.