Guild Wars 2

In light of all the p/p builds people try I am going with this at the moment. Oodles of evade and INI built around building might with dodge . Currently using off hand p/p weaponset as well. (this will likely change to one offering variety in utility) The weaponswap is used to cleanse a condi and gain more endurance every 10 seconds. Stacks of might build quickly which helps with both damage and your bleeds off the AA. It has a respectable crit rate but the damage is keyed on more unloads rather then the harder hitting crits from the same.

Do not be afraid to use your dodges as there more where they comes from. Your withdraw as your heal not only opens that gap but all but refills endurance to full and gives another 4 ini. RFI another stunbreak and counter to immobs as they a killer in a no stealth set using p/p.

(you can switch up to richochet from bountiful theft but high vigor uptime always nice)

The assassins signet slot is flexible. At times I have agility there, shadows , devourer venom or even prayer to kormir depending on need.

Quickpockets can be used instead of assassins reward for even more precious ini.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQRAqa6al0Mp3plOxxJ0PNBNh4d4vb1KQ3Hj2E-TFyHABKfSA2Z/BgU6tm+BEV/pHlBA8EAuTJIpAqSZE-w

P/P without a second weapon set and Ricochet, Knight+Assassin(Miles away from Power/Precision Equilibrium), Useless food that doesn’t stack with Vigor, questionable utilities, runes and sigils – 0/10 build value
0/4/0/6/4 with pistol/survivability traits is much more decent.
On a side note Ricochet increases your overall damage by 87.5%(extra 25% to a primary target assuming 2 targets) and gives you extra 150 range.

Evalia.7103:

P/P without a second weapon set and Ricochet, Knight+Assassin(Miles away from Power/Precision Equilibrium), Useless food that doesn’t stack with Vigor, questionable utilities, runes and sigils – 0/10 build value
0/4/0/6/4 with pistol/survivability traits is much more decent.
On a side note Ricochet increases your overall damage by 87.5%(extra 25% to a primary target assuming 2 targets) and gives you extra 150 range.

For critique on a build 0/10. Long on generalizations short on specifics. You seem to have little experience with a p/p no stealth build and the challenges. You contradict yourself within your post when speaking of “ricochet” and “vigor”. You can not trait for vigor on steal unless you give up Ricochet.

You seem unaware that vigor on heal lasts all of 6 seconds. You ignore might stacks from the food used and the fact that for the majority of the time you will not have vigor running.

I have tried Vampirism/Scholars/Pack/Strength and for a p/p no stealth build this by far the most survivable. Its damage output is comparable to Vampirism/pack and has more survival. 50 percent endurance regen in a build focused on dodge is HUGE and of greater benefit then “percentage chance of boon XXX when hit” as one is trying not to get hit. an instant 50 percent endurance regen is > 6 seconds of vigor uptime.

Ricochet is only beneficial when fighting larger groups. in one on ones it in fact harmful and the only time you get the extra damage output is if the enemy close to one another which tends not to happen in small scale fights. I turn this off and on dependent on the environment. I do not want to be fighting 4 moas and an enemy player due to my ricochets.

The trinkets used add precision power toughness in that order. Toughness is desired in no stealth builds so as to ensure one can survive a burst . These trinkets were acquired before I went high dodge. Others much better at dodging can go Zerker or valkyrie.

The utilities chosen are all for a purpose. None are “questionable”. Withdraw is one of the best heals in the game . Low cooldown no ability to interrupt. Breaks Immobilize.

Shadowstep needed to clear conditions and another stun break and gap opener.That said condition cleansing difficult in no stealth builds and sigils of cleansing help here. The advantage they have over something like purity is one has control over when they kick in and go on cooldown. With these sigils one will find less a need to use shadowstep as a cleanse.

RFI breaks stuns.breaks IMMOB adds INI which is precious in a p/p build. Opens a gap. Added INI adds to damage from lead strikes.

In P/P no stealth builds one finds stuns and Immobs are the biggest killer. They will happen to you and you need an out .

The other utility i mentioned was flexible. Plug in what you want.

I also stated that p/p as a second set of weapons was filler until I found the one that best synergized with the same. I lean to sb but want to test all combos before a final decision made. Unlike those that claim there no point to switching weapons as a thief due to INI , I do it a lot in the game for flexibility and see no reason NOT to gain a boon from the on swap sigils. If i am GOING to swap I might as well gain something by doing so. If P/P my main set for damage then there would seem little point in adding damage type sigils to the offhand set.

It’s an interesting experiment, but it seems to go a little too far with all the sources of Endurance. That may have been what the other guy was getting at. It sure looks like you’ve got enough sources of Endurance that you could get Ricochet and still have more than enough. I would be tempted to swap one of the other sources for something else as well.

It definitely got me thinking about ways to improve endurance. I personally use 4 in acro and the agility sigil to gas up when I need it bad.

Just as a point of comparison with runesets.

We all remember how Anet deemed vigor allowed too many dodges so they cut the duration of the same.

ONE runeset gives vigor.

Rune of the baelfire slot 4.

25% chance to gain vigor for 5 seconds when struck. (Cooldown: 25s)

Contrast that with Adventurer coupled with Withdraw. It a 100 percent chance to gain the equivalent of 5 seconds of vigor INSTANTLY on a 15 second cooldown.

That is NOT minor. I will take that over a whole lot of other boons in a p/p build even if I give up 75 power to do so. I gain that back on the extra dodges it provides.Energy sigils are much the same.

Builds that use high stealth do not rely on dodging as much as a p/p set does. Dodge is your friend in a p/p set. (And yeah it would be real nice if we could unload through the dodge)

I’ve played almost exclusively as a P/P thief (check my posting history). I’m a fan of anyone as dedicated to the set as I am. I know how important dodge is. Buuut…

Here are all of the Endurance boosts in your build:

Heal = 6.5 seconds of Vigor
Heal = 50% endurance replenished
Bountiful Theft = 13 secs of Vigor
Feline Grace = 35 endurance used per dodge
SSoE swap = 50% endurance replenished
Food = 40% increase endurance regeneration

Vigor gives you the max regeneration of 10 per second.

The food would give you a total of 7 per second. But, it doesn’t stack with Vigor, so it’s wasted while Vigor is active.

If your endurance was totally empty and then you did Steal and then Withdraw, you’d get 50 endurance immediately and the remaining 50 over the next 5 seconds. You’d still have ~14 seconds of Vigor remaining. That’s almost exactly how much time you’d have left on your Withdraw cooldown. You heal again, you get 6 more seconds, which extends until your Steal cooldown ends (the times are pretty close), which means that you would effectively have perma Vigor.

With the addition of Feline Grace, you’re using 35 endurance per dodge. With Vigor, that’s 3.5 seconds to get back each dodge. You’ll never empty your endurance under real conditions, and you’ve got to actually fire those pistols at some point, so everything else is pretty much wasted.

With your pistols (I’ve actually thought about doing what you’ve done with swaps and cleanse on both sets), you can swap every 10 seconds. Soldier runes would get 9 seconds. If you kept both sets of guns, but only the SSoE on one, plus the Heal improvements, I think you’d probably have more Endurance than you’ll ever actually use. Then you could take Ricochet, put the SSoE on your second pistol set and and Accuracy on your primary set.

In fact, I’m going to use the ideas you’ve given me here to tweak a build I’ve been working on. I think this may be part of the missing link I’ve been looking for.

Black Frog.9274:

It’s an interesting experiment, but it seems to go a little too far with all the sources of Endurance. That may have been what the other guy was getting at. It sure looks like you’ve got enough sources of Endurance that you could get Ricochet and still have more than enough. I would be tempted to swap one of the other sources for something else as well.

It definitely got me thinking about ways to improve endurance. I personally use 4 in acro and the agility sigil to gas up when I need it bad.

Ok for clarities sake. I USE Richochet in larger scale battles. I find it of no use in small scale battles. In one on ones or if there say three a side Bountiful theft better. Indeed most anything is. I do not like getting swarmed by moas or moose

The energy sigils were what was on my weapons earlier. They kind of expensive to give up but I do NOT find more dodges harmful. I am not sure what I would prefer for an on swap on a weaponset used for utility rather then damage. Energy my preference at the moment. (Leeching might be nice or battle). Keep in mind too many dodges via vigor was seen as overly powerful by ANET yet energy sigil is better then 5 seconds vigor.

Believe you me all those extra dodges really help. Last night I on that goat trail near hills when Our team got wiped in a group of 15 enemy. The length of time I lasted without stealth as they all tried to hit me was significant. AN SB off hand might have got me out of there. (Here is the power of dodge if 10 guys attack you at same time the dodge will avoid all 10 attacks

There are certain builds you will not do well against and especially in a 1v1. The build does very well in larger fights and zerg fights when compared to others I have used. You can kite warriors and guardians forever. Big tell attacks are easy to avoid. You can dodge towards those RF rangers and once in range your Unloads will prove superior to his RF. Stealth thieves can be a pain as if you do not avoid that first attack you can be put on the defensive. Those d/d eles are much easier to fight as they like to chain a few burst types together and your extra dodges can avoid more of them . There no need to close on an engineer as melee type builds will do so you can avoid those bombs and nades to a great extent.

Classes that load on Conditions fast are an issue. You have to try and anticipate the bigger ones and dodge. Without stealth you need more condi removal sources OR need to avoid them.

>>Heal = 6.5 seconds of Vigor
Heal = 50% endurance replenished
Bountiful Theft = 13 secs of Vigor
Feline Grace = 35 endurance used per dodge
SSoE swap = 50% endurance replenished
Food = 40% increase endurance regeneration

Ok just for my own take.

6.5 seconds of vigor as you know gives back 65 percent of your endurance over that period. Yes the Orrian food is canceled here but that food is for the MIGHT as well.

Heal on withdraw gives half your endurance back instantly. Assuming you have no endurance having used your dodges with two seconds after the withdraw you will have enough endurance for two more dodges. That extra dodge in two seconds is a whole lot of avoided damage. Further that 4 more might stacks.

As stated I turn Ricochet on in larger scale battles or when I expect as much meaning vigor no longer comes from Bountiful theft. Your overlap of the orrian food becomes 6.5 seconds. One is not going to realistically use their heal every 15 seconds in a battle. It would make little sense if you have 90 percent of hit points left.

With 40 percent boost to endurance regen using that food when vigor down I get 7 endurance per second giving enough for another dodge in 5 seconds.

All of those extra dodges allowed are stacking might. It not just about the damage avoided. It about building might to improve damage output. An added advantage of more dodges is that you can in fact get more of those unloads off. You can open a wider gap between you and the enemy by stringing a few together.

Another tactic you can use is uncatchable. With those extra dodges you dump more caltrops in the path of your enemy and they tend to take the straightest line towards you this cripples and adds bleeds and those bleeds tick a wee bit harder in adventurers. With the might you are getting close to 1000 condi damage. Not all that bad. That cripple is even better though.

Now there certainly are alternatives to vigorous recovery. Pain response/hard to catch/assassins retreat/descent of shadows can all be used. Pain response has that long cooldown. I not that great a fan. Hard to catch can be ok but is very situational as compared to another dodge. Assassins retreat and descent of shadows are both viable choices.

BUT dodge in this build is leveraged. It gives gap. it gives might. It avoids an attack. It gives swiftness. You can leave behind caltrops inflicting bleeds and cripples.. These boons and benefits of the one or two extra dodges have to be measured in their entirety when measured against the benefits of those other traits.

I hear you, but it still seems like the slots/food/whatever have too much overlap and some other cool stuff is lost in the mix. Might is the reason why I’ve been traiting Power of Inertia for so long, but it seems like at 35 a stack there’s a huge chunk of your build being poured into maintaining a boon you can get a lot of different ways. Still, it got me thinking about synergizing a few things.

I’ve been running a crit heavy, life stealing build in WvW. I suck btw, and 1v1 or outnumbered is waaaaay out of my league. I’m little more than a button masher. I basically consider myself DPS machine gun support and interceptor/tackle. But in large scale combat (and especially in closed spaces or other places with limited distance), I can lay down some serious damage. Once I started running it, I found that I stayed alive much longer than previously, even with conditions, provided that I could keep on firing. With high precision and Fury, I get ~90% crit. With the life steal food at 66% and near 100% crit, that means ~40 to 50% of the time I’m stealing life. Add in the Invigorating Precision and Signet of Malice and straight up health is not an issue. It’s also nice that Life Steal gets past armor. However, when the initiative runs out and the conditions hit, I’ve got a serious problem. After looking at your build and thinking things through, I added a touch of Vigor and linked up some benefits for using the Heal skill and will try a new rune set for more cleanse.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZQQRAqa6al8Mp3pNOxwJ8PNRORt9DEALonXxU05REXA-TRDBABlfQAqRzwWKFOSJmh6B0SZwCm4Ca/BAeAAEp+TInBgJUCylSiAAIAcdT+xQKgyFGB-e

In zerg situations, Signet of Malice is a must because you never know how many people have Retribution. But, Withdraw would be good for all other situations. Then I could trade out RFI for something else. Or, with both RFI and Withdraw, I could swap Fleet of Foot for Power of Inertia and add to the Assassin’s Signet (which equals ~5 stacks of POI, is passive, and requires no upkeep).

Now for some shopping.

edit: for fun i also used your doubled pistol sets. i’ve got LOTS of extra pistol sets LOL

I would just like to point out I was using a build with hi-crit lifestealing traits prior to this. It added to damage but this set is more survivable and in particular in smaller scale battles. MY experience anyways.

the reason I found this to be true is this. If focused by pair or more of players the life steals just can not keep up with the damage received. Now it very good for certain scenarios. Ie a build much like yours with Ricochet 85 percent base crit lots of fury and SOM was used.

You stand on a castle wall and could devastate opponents. The issue was of course mobility. Those walls mitigated that to an extent as does “getting lost in the crowd” in a larger scale battle.

As you stated when INI runs out and you can no longer steal life you are in trouble and all you got is utilities to save you. This can and does work in those larger battles. I wanted to see how I could improve survival in the smaller ones.

That is the main reason I decided on high dodge in the build. More dodges allow you to use those saving utilities in a more expeditious manner.Skills that mitigate all damage and cost no INI and use no utility skills on cooldown are powerful skills. They key is in being able to recognize what to dodge and some are way better then that then I…BUT

Playing this set with no stealth or lifesteal I am learning to dodge better and better.

My last build before this was Vampirism runes with withdraw as heal , Onomberry ghost as food/leeching venoms and the IP trait in the CS line. Lots of lifesteal. I found I was still using skills I really did not want to use or burning ini on a blind or some such more then I wanted to. So my solution was dodge more.

In time I might well drop some of the endurance stuff and bring in other traits but I will likely stick with this runeset for a while. Withdraw cooldown along with added traits to the heal are just so good.

Added to that there ARE foods I find might be interesting with this set. Ghost pepper popper. Might on crit during day chill at night . You can keep perm chill on at night which is great for 1v1. Lifesteal on crit with 40 percent condi duration is great and that the new food from dry top. )(cactus fruit salad). I would use that over ghost just to get more on my bleeds on the AA plus higher poison up time on steal.

The other that is intriguing is seaweed salad. Chance at Swiftness on kill and 10 percent damage while moving. You do move a lot with PP.

In any case have fun with your builds. It where I have the most fun , breaking things down and trying something else. I am not so much interested in what the very best build as in variety of builds.