Guild Wars 2

Every decent player with a pet, clone, etc knows they are completely safe when they use them as a buffer to the thieves P/P medium range attacks. This is a fine strategy against long range attacks (many of which have piercing options) or classes that have built in defensive sustain, but a P/P thief has to get position, manage enemy defensive sustain and deal with a horrible AA all while being fairly brittle.

I grow weary of all the nerfs endured on this class but the nuclear nerf on P/P just sucked the life out of the game for me. It has been a year or so since they removed Ricochet and hardly a day goes by where I struggle to understand why they did it or how it improved the game in any way.

I’d cast my vote for Ricochet.

You have my vote.

I play Thief since August 2012, I made a thief because when I put my interest on Guild Wars ², I saw this video: Thief Preview (from official Anet website at this period)
I always loved the gunslinger gameplay.

With Ricochet I had the fun. Even if P/P had always been considered as an exotical set, I enjoyed it very much. I was even able to zerg in WvW with the ricochet, and it was fun.

For me the game is dead since Ricochet is gone.

So yeah Buddy… You have my vote !

You’re like, 6 months or more late

I used to clear a node of turret spam from Engineers in PvP with my P/P…then the QQ started and Ricochet is gone. It was not about blocking with pets or clones, it was the Engineers to blame. They were also the reason why Dancing Dager and Shorbow auto-attack sucks. When Shortbow used to have a 1200 range, I can snipe all the turrets and clear the node in seconds. I also used to use Dancing Dagger to clear a node of turrets. They QQ because it’s very very effective. One skill that can shutdown the whole build, and in case of Ricochet, one trait.

So should it come back? Heck yeah. I’d love to indirectly remove those pesky drones.

I know the “purists” scoff at the notion of p/p and the “unload spam” as they advance their own views of what is skilled and fun gameplay , but there no denying ricochet was a whole lot of fun for a lot of people.

When it did exist , out of sake for just efficiency and damage at the time I did untrait it in a build but there no denying when I had it in p/p was more fun.

I am as yet unclear as to why it removed. Put this back in with the current might stack on unload and the entire set , while having its weaknesses, will shine.

No! Then Mesmer mains cant stand behind illusions to avoid burst lol.

I think P/P in general needs some additional tweaks. I tried running a hybrid build for example, but even with the might stacking from unload, sneak attack’s damage is abysmal (sneak attack seems to only work with pure condition builds that pump +bleed duration). And with the unloading done you barely have enough init left for the other attacks.

roamzero.9486:

I think P/P in general needs some additional tweaks. I tried running a hybrid build for example, but even with the might stacking from unload, sneak attack’s damage is abysmal (sneak attack seems to only work with pure condition builds that pump +bleed duration). And with the unloading done you barely have enough init left for the other attacks.

In order to maximize unload might stacks , you have to get the boon duration up very high so that those might stacks last longer and you are not having to replenish them all the time. With longer might duration , you can preserve INI for the other things you need such as BP and bound for stealth or a head shot or immob.

Added to that sneak attack bleeds are just not enough conditions. Consider using a trap or distracting daggers or pressure strike from a headshot or steal interrupt or a venom lik spider/skale.

For runes consider strength or Aristocracy.

I do have to say that while my first day spent in the Bloodstone Fen P/P sure works well there.

babazhook.6805:

I do have to say that while my first day spent in the Bloodstone Fen P/P sure works well there.

I think he means in stuff like PvP and (maybe) WvW. It’s a difficult set to use against player characters, so I rarely ever use it, definitely not now.

Arvizal.8436:

babazhook.6805:

I do have to say that while my first day spent in the Bloodstone Fen P/P sure works well there.

I think he means in stuff like PvP and (maybe) WvW. It’s a difficult set to use against player characters, so I rarely ever use it, definitely not now.

I use it in wvw all the time. Works fine. I now use it on a pure condition build and then in conjunction with a s/d build and a staff build. I would not know about pvp as i not fond of the format. PvP is far too limiting as to what you can use. They give you all those possible weapon sets, and then put on restrictions making a small subset viable.

A solution perhaps?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Mirrored-weapons-thief-passive/first#post6244731

+1 for Ricochet

Ricochet made Pistols so much fun. Return it please.

Ricochet and Piercing should both be added back. I would prefer them be added in a Gunslinger traitline. P/P is the only thing i enjoy playing on Thief but right now with how easy it is to LoS us anyways and add to that the infinite Blocks, Evades, Invulns, and reflects that everyone gets, its just a silly mess.

Edit: oh, and ADD to that 1/10 of damage is obstructed in open field for some reason. bleh…

indeed we need these back, p/p is one of the most fun set to run but its hard for us you know!

i dont understand why they got rid of ricochet to begin with? it was a very popular trait (among the 5 people that actually played p/p)

Blacksarevok.8104:

i dont understand why they got rid of ricochet to begin with? it was a very popular trait (among the 5 people that actually played p/p)

Ricochet was really odd to balance around. It worked with some projectiles, but not with others, and each skill had wildly different results based on how much they ricochet. Ricochet had a 50% chance to bounce to another target, up to 4 total hits. Each bounce had its own range and wouldn’t re-hit a previously hit target. Head Shot could potentially hit 4 targets, and if we had current Unload with ricochet, you might possibly get 25 Might from a single cast. Shadow Shot would actually teleport you to the last person hit with the ricochet bullet, so who knows where you’d end up.

Ultimately they decided they wanted Pistols to go a different direction. Ricochet allowed pistols to encroach in shortbow’s niche of aoe ranged damage. From removing Ricochet till now, they’ve significantly increased pistol’s single-target capabilities, especially P/P. P/P is actually fairly viable in many areas of the game, much more so than when Ricochet was around.

Ricochet doesn’t actually need to come back, but I wouldn’t complain about getting a piercing effect for linear aoe purposes.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Ricochet was really odd to balance around. It worked with some projectiles, but not with others, and each skill had wildly different results based on how much they ricochet. Ricochet had a 50% chance to bounce to another target, up to 4 total hits. Each bounce had its own range and wouldn’t re-hit a previously hit target.

When most talk about bringing back Ricochet it isn’t about bringing back the exact mechanic but returning the bounce. I would be fine if it hit up to three targets and only effected Vital Shot and Unload while losing the might.

The functional problems with P/P: It has no escape, no defense, no mobility, its utility doesn’t synergize with much outside of Bound and its DPS is atrocious against multiple targets. P/P in its current form is at a huge disadvantage compared to weapons that cleave, bounce, pierce or AoE.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Ricochet doesn’t actually need to come back, but I wouldn’t complain about getting a piercing effect for linear aoe purposes.

Why should it be returned in some form? Because it was a fun weapon set that few felt was OP. That is sort of the point of playing, fun.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Blacksarevok.8104:

i dont understand why they got rid of ricochet to begin with? it was a very popular trait (among the 5 people that actually played p/p)

Ricochet was really odd to balance around. It worked with some projectiles, but not with others, and each skill had wildly different results based on how much they ricochet. Ricochet had a 50% chance to bounce to another target, up to 4 total hits. Each bounce had its own range and wouldn’t re-hit a previously hit target. Head Shot could potentially hit 4 targets, and if we had current Unload with ricochet, you might possibly get 25 Might from a single cast. Shadow Shot would actually teleport you to the last person hit with the ricochet bullet, so who knows where you’d end up.

Ultimately they decided they wanted Pistols to go a different direction. Ricochet allowed pistols to encroach in shortbow’s niche of aoe ranged damage. From removing Ricochet till now, they’ve significantly increased pistol’s single-target capabilities, especially P/P. P/P is actually fairly viable in many areas of the game, much more so than when Ricochet was around.

Ricochet doesn’t actually need to come back, but I wouldn’t complain about getting a piercing effect for linear aoe purposes.

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And before anyone says anything, I played with Ricochet extensively and loved it. It just doesn’t need to come back.

It really wasn’t that odd, and P/P underperformed even with it. The damage buff to Vital Shot was needed for years until they finally did it. There’s really no good reason why Ricochet was removed, and it has the effect of making P/P useless in most PvE situations.

I think the biggest aspect of PP that might have made it hard to deal with in a ricochet build was the SOM used in the build. It could generate tons of healing when coupled with IP. if implemeted today you could easily get 30+k damage off the unload for an IP heal of 4500+ and another 2 k off the bounces . This is a lowball estimate.

P/P in current state is not useless in Pve. It devastating when used right and in conjunction with bound. My characters run amok with it in bloodtsone fen rarely having to switch out.

When used with Bound it has all the same survival abilities of the d/p set. Your Bound can be might stacked up to do as much damage as would a heartseeker against enemies at low health , this for no ini and irrespective of enemy health level. The synergy with other weapon sets is excellent in that when Might stacked you can swap out for the more devastating AA attacks of s/x d/x and staff. Bound to stealth with a sneak attack hits hard and the bleed ticks significant. The Headshot with might stack does more damage then any other PI source. You can do a chain off impact strike coupled with PI that can melt an enemy.

In short every element of the p/p set is very usable. It makes every skill around it work better be it in pure power builds, hybrids or condition. Body shot warrants a slight change (maybe uping vuln to 5 seconds and 1.5 second immob and/or adding PIERCE or some defensive mechanism) and I think it in a good place.

While it might not offer as many defensive options as other sets it IS ranged and hits very hard.

Reason I don’t play Thief no more.
Just sits there..waiting for PP love.

It does need this back. Right now I sit behind illusions and absorb every projectile from any ranged class. It feels kinda cheep that my illusions actually have the bouncing attacks and not thief.

Zelulose.8695:

It does need this back. Right now I sit behind illusions and absorb every projectile from any ranged class. It feels kinda cheep that my illusions actually have the bouncing attacks and not thief.

Thinly veiled attempt.
Pun is intended, humor is not

babazhook.6805:

I think the biggest aspect of PP that might have made it hard to deal with in a ricochet build was the SOM used in the build.

SoM sounds powerful but in reality it typically hit for 1k to 3k per Unload. Unload is often front loaded which meant the heals were often wasted. SoM also has no extra benefit like condi removal, stealth, endurance, etc. The biggest problem though is that blocks, evades, invulns, etc make its passive highly unreliable. It was marginal before all the defensive sustain and in the current meta would find itself quickly swapped out for a utility heal.

babazhook.6805:

When used with Bound it has all the same survival abilities of the d/p set.

But it doesn’t. D/P has Shadow Shot and can stealth without giving up Unhindered Combatant. UC is easily one of the strongest traits in the game. Bound is one of those traits that reads far better than it works, landing Bound is needlessly difficult. UC is one of those traits that plays better than its already fantastic specs.

babazhook.6805:

Might stacked you can swap out for the more devastating AA attacks of s/x d/x and staff. Bound to stealth with a sneak attack hits hard and the bleed ticks significant.

Might stacks don’t last long enough to do much without extra buffs. Besides I would happily give up the might to get Ricochet or Piercing. On a power build two unloads are going to be about a 10% to maybe 15% bump in damage for a few seconds.

P/P has never been OP and even with suggested changes will not be OP. Nobody to my knowledge ever complained about the weapon set being too strong especially with D/P sitting there and needing no extra traits to be that good.

Straegen.2938:

P/P has never been OP and even with suggested changes will not be OP. Nobody to my knowledge ever complained about the weapon set being too strong especially with D/P sitting there and needing no extra traits to be that good.

I’ve used P/P for a long time when Ricochet (and Ankle Shot) existed and I can tell you this; it kills pets, minions, turrets, and illusions too well while dealing damage to the main target. That alone is enough evidence for ArenaNet to get rid of Ricochet especially when they want P/P to be a high damage single-target weapon set — AoE is given to Shortbow. The fact has been accepted that P/P is a single-target weapon set. Do I want Ricochet back? Of course I do. But is it healthy for the game? Of course not.

Now accepting the fact that P/P is a single-target weapon set, then they have to improve it to be better at 1v1 fights. This means that they need to include some kind of defensive mechanism within the set — evade, shadowstep, blind (no not the current nerfed Black Powder, but a reliable blinding skill), anything. Right now, all it does is deal damage then die.

>>But it doesn’t. D/P has Shadow Shot and can stealth without giving up Unhindered Combatant. UC is easily one of the strongest traits in the game. Bound is one of those traits that reads far better than it works, landing Bound is needlessly difficult. UC is one of those traits that plays better than its already fantastic specs.

Well this is why you go acro. Look I tsarted all my builds using UC I found it that good but have since transitioned into more bounding.

I use don’t stop in the acro line. This is coupled with Withdraw and RFI traited as utilities. This gives me three Immob breaks to use while in the p/p set. Why do I need UC? if I switch to staff I get a built in Immob break.

Ok UC gives me swiftness on dodge but so does Expeditious dodger. I have good boon duration so I get plenty of swiftness off expeditious dodger.Well it removes chilled and crippled and that a good thing but don’t stop with my always on swiftness does just about as good AND I still got Withdraw and RFI. Futher to this don’t stop is merely on a 10 second cooldown. Yes when on cooldown I can not just use twice in a row if imobbed twice in a row but at the same time, how often does that happen and is it not an advantage NOT to have to use a dodge to get rid of Immob?

I do not think anyone using staff and trickster traits that goes into Acro should take UC.

Now what do I get from bounding? First it not that hard to get a hit in but even If I do not I get a 10 percent bonus to my next attacks. It is AOE so if you hit a cluster you will do damage to all and the damage output with might stacks on is significant. UC does no damage. I have been low or short of INI and just downed people with a bound.

Added to that I can gain stealth cheaper than can a d/p set from an INI perspective.

What I can do with bound is trait Basi venom , bound to target for an unblockable attacck triggering an interrupt, this in turn triggering a PI. Thats a whole lot of damage that UC just can not do.

With the might stacks On I have received 10K plus combined damage against light armored enemy using that tactic and that bound still has an evade.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Straegen.2938:

P/P has never been OP and even with suggested changes will not be OP. Nobody to my knowledge ever complained about the weapon set being too strong especially with D/P sitting there and needing no extra traits to be that good.

I’ve used P/P for a long time when Ricochet (and Ankle Shot) existed and I can tell you this; it kills pets, minions, turrets, and illusions too well while dealing damage to the main target. That alone is enough evidence for ArenaNet to get rid of Ricochet especially when they want P/P to be a high damage single-target weapon set — AoE is given to Shortbow. The fact has been accepted that P/P is a single-target weapon set. Do I want Ricochet back? Of course I do. But is it healthy for the game? Of course not.

Now accepting the fact that P/P is a single-target weapon set, then they have to improve it to be better at 1v1 fights. This means that they need to include some kind of defensive mechanism within the set — evade, shadowstep, blind (no not the current nerfed Black Powder, but a reliable blinding skill), anything. Right now, all it does is deal damage then die.

I was toying with a new condition p/d build wherein I brough my condition duration up to 80+ percent. This was not intended to milk more ticks out of the damaging traits as it was to increase durations of weakness/crippled and Immob.

The intent was to see how much Immob sources I could get while still piling up the damage.

Prior to this I rarely used Body shot. The Ini cost to benefit ratio just not there and when i did use it I was trying to catch up to fleeing enemies more than as a defensive measure.

Well with a higher duration it not all bad from a defensive viewpoint. If in trouble you can immob the enemy and open range. The problem of course is the duration just not long enough in most builds to use as a defensive measure. I really think if they looked at the number two and changed in some manner we could address that remaining issue.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

That alone is enough evidence for ArenaNet to get rid of Ricochet especially when they want P/P to be a high damage single-target weapon set — AoE is given to Shortbow.

Ricochet was removed because of its complex Bounce mechanics not because it was OP. As one dev put it, “too much RNG”. Virtually nobody was complaining about P/P prior to this which is why so many players were confused and kittened when it was removed. It was not then nor would it be now the strongest weapon set for a thief.

babazhook.6805:

Well this is why you go acro. Look I tsarted all my builds using UC I found it that good but have since transitioned into more bounding.

I use don’t stop in the acro line. This is coupled with Withdraw and RFI traited as utilities. This gives me three Immob breaks to use while in the p/p set. Why do I need UC? if I switch to staff I get a built in Immob break.

Going Acro means losing an entire trait line just to get back what UC gives. This means giving up Trickery, Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes all of which are huge DPS increases. Is Bound worth the entire DA line? On power builds IMO, no. I think this trade is worth it for condi builds but not power.

I understand where you are headed but Bound is awkward with a tiny hit radius. UC on the other hand allows P/P to easily kite, not worry about movement condi and boosts defense. As noted it also opens up an entire trait line since Acro becomes redundant.

If they changed Bound to be a forward dodge like Lotus and made it work like a mini-Vault then count me in. Right now though, it is awkward, small attack radius (wiki is wrong) and while somewhat fun still a gimmick.

Straegen.2938:

Ricochet was removed because of its complex Bounce mechanics not because it was OP. As one dev put it, “too much RNG”. Virtually nobody was complaining about P/P prior to this which is why so many players were confused and kittened when it was removed. It was not then nor would it be now the strongest weapon set for a thief.

Karl said that players want the increased damage and not the RNG bounce. That’s BS and you know it, everyone who uses P/P knows it. The trait gives increased pistol damage at the same time as the bounce and it’s the bounce that makes it great, not the damage.

I gave you my first hand experience on how I can clear a node full of Eng turrets with my P/P Ricochet+AnkleShot build when it used to have 1200 range. I can destroy the turrets on the back without getting in range of it just by targeting the nearest turret. I can kill the Eng behind his turrets without getting in range. Nobody can get near me without teleport or jump due to constant Cripple on crits. P/P has no rival at 1200 range in dealing damage in a short amount of time. P/P was a dominating set before they nerfed it to the ground.

With the current meta, restoring P/P Ricochet+AnkleShot to its former glory would not be as OP as it was back then when practically everyone were too squishy.

babazhook.6805:

I was toying with a new condition p/d build wherein I brough my condition duration up to 80+ percent. This was not intended to milk more ticks out of the damaging traits as it was to increase durations of weakness/crippled and Immob.

The intent was to see how much Immob sources I could get while still piling up the damage.

Prior to this I rarely used Body shot. The Ini cost to benefit ratio just not there and when i did use it I was trying to catch up to fleeing enemies more than as a defensive measure.

Well with a higher duration it not all bad from a defensive viewpoint. If in trouble you can immob the enemy and open range. The problem of course is the duration just not long enough in most builds to use as a defensive measure. I really think if they looked at the number two and changed in some manner we could address that remaining issue.

I’ve been experimenting with Rune of Evasion and Lotus Training with my P/P CS/Acro/DD. It’s still on the low dmg side so I’m still tweaking to find the right gear combination, just like you, I’m trying to extend the cripple and immob duration, but not to a point where I have to sacrifice other types of survivability. Sigil of Incapacitation is basically Ankle Shot and when paired with Sigil of Ice, it gives P/P a great deal of survivability so 50+ percent is enough for my build. It’s just lame that I have to go through all these troubles when other weapon sets have survival skills in the set itself.

EDIT: typos

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Karl said that players want the increased damage and not the RNG bounce. That’s BS and you know it, everyone who uses P/P knows it. The trait gives increased pistol damage at the same time as the bounce and it’s the bounce that makes it great, not the damage.

Devs said it was removed because the RNG made the skill too difficult to balance. They even had to buff it after the trait rework so that its range was extended and it hit more reliably.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I gave you my first hand experience on how I can clear a node full of Eng turrets with my P/P Ricochet+AnkleShot build when it used to have 1200 range. I can destroy the turrets on the back without getting in range of it just by targeting the nearest turret.

I have several builds from other classes that dish AoE damage like no tomorrow. My Tempest FA build is disgusting and will fry an entire upgraded camp in about 5s.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

With the current meta, restoring P/P Ricochet+AnkleShot to its former glory would not be as OP as it was back then when practically everyone were too squishy.

Again it was never OP. The skill existed in the game since Pre-Release and nobody was afraid of it. It was openly mocked for a long time as gimmick weapon set inferior to even D/D. Even after they removed it the Thief forum was dumbstruck as to why:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Ricochet-gone/first

Straegen.2938:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Karl said that players want the increased damage and not the RNG bounce. That’s BS and you know it, everyone who uses P/P knows it. The trait gives increased pistol damage at the same time as the bounce and it’s the bounce that makes it great, not the damage.

Devs said it was removed because the RNG made the skill too difficult to balance. They even had to buff it after the trait rework so that its range was extended and it hit more reliably.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I gave you my first hand experience on how I can clear a node full of Eng turrets with my P/P Ricochet+AnkleShot build when it used to have 1200 range. I can destroy the turrets on the back without getting in range of it just by targeting the nearest turret.

I have several builds from other classes that dish AoE damage like no tomorrow. My Tempest FA build is disgusting and will fry an entire upgraded camp in about 5s.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

With the current meta, restoring P/P Ricochet+AnkleShot to its former glory would not be as OP as it was back then when practically everyone were too squishy.

Again it was never OP. The skill existed in the game since Pre-Release and nobody was afraid of it. It was openly mocked for a long time as gimmick weapon set inferior to even D/D. Even after they removed it the Thief forum was dumbstruck as to why:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Ricochet-gone/first

Have you blinded the entire enemy team during team fight while staying at the back line Unloading while standing on Black Powder?

Have you applied burn condition to the entire enemy team during team fight while staying at the back line Unloading while your teammate Ele drops a Ring of Fire?

Have you taken out all turrets, all illusions while staying out of range?

My point is, I lived through it. P/P may not have been popular because compared to weapon sets like S/D and S/P (yes S/P was broken), it pales in comparison. However, it is the best ranged weapon set, way better than Shortbow.

So tell me this, if it was about the RNG excuse, then why did they also reduced P/P’s range from 1200 to 900? In fact, at one point Ankle Shot makes Pistol range to 1050. Speaking of Ankle Shot, why remove that also?

You can drink the cool-aide they are serving if you so choose, but for someone who used P/P from the very beginning knows fully well that the excuses given about P/P are as credible as their excuses for botching Acrobatics (“too much evade” my kitten.

>>>Going Acro means losing an entire trait line just to get back what UC gives. This means giving up Trickery, Deadly Arts or Critical Strikes all of which are huge DPS increases. Is Bound worth the entire DA line? On power builds IMO, no. I think this trade is worth it for condi builds but not power.

UC does not give full time regen. UC does not give condition cleanse for burning bleeding poison torment on a 16 second cooldown. UC does not give 100 percent vigor nor does it have a stun break that can add two more dodges. It can not add 7 percent to damage on sword nor lower steal recharge times. It can not restore INI .

Going Dodger with acro gives you all of the things UC does along with a choice of a number of these extras PLUS the damage from bounding which is significant and the ability to do a blast in a field with dodge. There no finisher in UC.

Now I am not sure what you mean when you say you can not dodge forward with bounding. I do it all the time. Run towards the enemy and execute my dodge , I move forward and land on top.

As to giving up “huge damge” by not going DA or CS the damage loss is not as great as you suggest. The biggest chunk of extra damage cin the DA line comes off Executioner and exposed weakness . Other sources can be revealed training if you a stealth build and the Mug.

Using acro with bounding I get more dodges and dodges that do damage. That damage can be significant. It far more damage then steal provides with mug and more readily available. The regen off the acro line provides more heal then does mug. Dodger gives a 10 percent bonus to damage and while it has more downtime then exposed weakness , it mitigates for that 10 percent to a great degree.

Now you compare executioner to those bounds with damage. The Bound works all the time and not only against enemies with less then 50 percent health. When you are attacking an enemy with more than 50 percent health you are getting nothing extra from executioner even as my bounds can do thousands in damage.

Now obviously it easier just to hit something with an attack then dodge to hit but if you total all this up through the course of a fight and there not that great a damage output difference.

Now P/P does not have a problem doing damage. It has a problem surviving and neither DA or CS add anything in that regard. Acro frees me up to take bounding for stealth if needed and gives more dodges/regen/ and condition clears.

I used P/P with Ricochet a lot when it was in game and it did huge damage against peoples on walls manning arrowcarts. I only had to hit the cannon and the shot would bounce and hit people behind.

I would also stand on a wall and chain unloads on persons manning a ram at the gate. This with IP and SOM traited. Multiple peoples could fire on me and I could heal through it even as my attacks hit the person on the ram, the ram itself and could bounce to others.

The RNG bounce and how it interacted with each individual skill was what made the trait weird.

I think we can also all agree that with Daredevil and the trait changes since the removal of Ricochet, we have a lot of options to build around as it relates to P/P.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Have you blinded the entire enemy team during team fight while staying at the back line Unloading while standing on Black Powder?

Have you applied burn condition to the entire enemy team during team fight while staying at the back line Unloading while your teammate Ele drops a Ring of Fire?

Have you taken out all turrets, all illusions while staying out of range?

All things I can do on my Chrono right now and more effectively than P/P ever could and I don’t need another classes field to make it happen. The blind “trick” is very heavy. Several classes can do the field trick including Rapid Fire which hits harder than Unload. I don’t even get the turret thing… turret engis sucked. Yes P/P was good against Shatter Mesmers which isn’t a bad thing. PU Mesmers became roaming gods for a while since they had no direct counters.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

So tell me this, if it was about the RNG excuse, then why did they also reduced P/P’s range from 1200 to 900? In fact, at one point Ankle Shot makes Pistol range to 1050. Speaking of Ankle Shot, why remove that also?

The 1200 range was a bug and never listed as part of the trait. In the beginning the trait didn’t buff range. The trait was then buffed to have extra range two years after release. The buff stated 150 but they screwed up and it did 300. A year later they reverted and removed the 150 that was really 300. In the next major patch the 150 was restored because it was under performing.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You can drink the cool-aide they are serving if you so choose, but for someone who used P/P from the very beginning knows fully well that the excuses given about P/P are as credible as their excuses for botching Acrobatics (“too much evade” my kitten.

Like many, I served my time on various thief builds in WvW with thousands of hours in WvW mostly on a thief. I duel a lot, I roam a lot and I skirmish a lot. I ran P/P for a good bit of that. I may not be an expert on zergs but in my experience P/P was never a strong dueling weapon, was marginal in skirmish and basically a solid roaming weapon set that offered no defensive abilities and very little utility.

Oddly enough I always felt P/P with Ricochet was a balanced play set that neither felt weak or OP but was very entertaining which is why I was gobsmacked when they removed it for HoT.

Straegen.2938:

All things I can do on my Chrono right now and more effectively than P/P ever could and I don’t need another classes field to make it happen. The blind “trick” is very heavy. Several classes can do the field trick including Rapid Fire which hits harder than Unload. I don’t even get the turret thing… turret engis sucked. Yes P/P was good against Shatter Mesmers which isn’t a bad thing. PU Mesmers became roaming gods for a while since they had no direct counters.

What’s this argument got to do with Thief’s P/P?

You can only compare P/P to other options within the Thief’s profession. And there was no Chrono when P/P has 1200 range, Ricochet and Ankle Shot. And I’m 100% positive that if Thief gets 1200 range, Ricochet and Ankle Shot today (and Acro’s Feline Grace restored) that the QQ will never end.

You don’t get the “turret thing” that’s fine…it’s PvP thing.

The 1200 range was a bug and never listed as part of the trait. In the beginning the trait didn’t buff range.

lol, a bug? Are you serious? In the beginning, Pistol and Shortbow have 1200 range. With your limited knowledge and experience, I bet you didn’t even know about Shortbow’s homing arrows.

The trait was then buffed to have extra range two years after release. The buff stated 150 but they screwed up and it did 300. A year later they reverted and removed the 150 that was really 300. In the next major patch the 150 was restored because it was under performing.

What are you talking about? Pistol had 1200 range. They nerfed it to 900, but added a range increase when traited with Ankle Shot making the total range to 1050. Then they completely removed from Ankle Shot the range increase. There was never a bug that makes Pistol range to 1200 when traited. The only bug was on Ankle Shots giving the +150 range even though they’ve removed it. Now we have Pistol at 900 range even when traited Ankle Shots. The +150 range was never restored.

Like many, I served my time on various thief builds in WvW with thousands of hours in WvW mostly on a thief. I duel a lot, I roam a lot and I skirmish a lot. I ran P/P for a good bit of that. I may not be an expert on zergs but in my experience P/P was never a strong dueling weapon, was marginal in skirmish and basically a solid roaming weapon set that offered no defensive abilities and very little utility.

P/P used to have defensive abilities — Feline Grace (endurance refund) and a 1s tick of Black Powder. It’s not much, but it still better than what we have now.

P/P with 1200 range and Ricochet allows the Thief to defend the walls in WvW, now my spit goes farther than my bullets. WvW is not about solo roaming, it’s about setting ambushes and sieges, thus the bet set to bring in WvW are the ones that can deal AoE damage.

Oddly enough I always felt P/P with Ricochet was a balanced play set that neither felt weak or OP but was very entertaining which is why I was gobsmacked when they removed it for HoT.

Comparing P/P+Ricochet with other professions, sure it doesn’t look great. However if you compare P/P+Ricochet to P/D and Shortbow, it is far superior. Even now Shortbow is crap in terms of damage output, P/P still exceeds better in that regards. What you feel about P/P+Ricochet really doesn’t reflect the reality of it.

In their effort to make SB as AoE and P/P as single target, the result is what you see now. It’s part of ArenaNet’s screwed-up vision of forcing players to certain build and weapons rather than developing the game by addressing all the players needs. P/P didn’t need Might stacking, it needs reliable survivability and not a nerfed BP.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

What’s this argument got to do with Thief’s P/P?

You have been arguing to keep Ricochet out because you think it is too powerful. You were listing off things it could do back then and I was stating at least one example of professions that can do it now (and better).

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You can only compare P/P to other options within the Thief’s profession.

Either Ricochet is a workable trait that isn’t OP in the current meta and that means ALL of the meta or it isn’t. Other thief weapon sets really don’t matter as to whether we should bring back a modified version of this trait. The thief is the only class that doesn’t have access to effective ranged AoE pressure.

lol, a bug? Are you serious? In the beginning, Pistol and Shortbow have 1200 range. With your limited knowledge and experience,

Unload at release:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Unload&oldid=309872

What are you talking about? Pistol had 1200 range. They nerfed it to 900, but added a range increase when traited with Ankle Shot making the total range to 1050. Then they completely removed from Ankle Shot the range increase. There was never a bug that makes Pistol range to 1200 when traited. The only bug was on Ankle Shots giving the +150 range even though they’ve removed it. Now we have Pistol at 900 range even when traited Ankle Shots. The +150 range was never restored.

Ankle Shots never had the +150 listed in the description even though it did add +150 to the distance. Here is the Sept 2015 update to the Wiki which lists this as an “Anomaly”. They removed that “Anomaly” that same month.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Ankle_Shots&oldid=1075849

Ricochet gained +150 in Sept 2014:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Ricochet_(trait)&oldid=880672

For about a year we had 1200 range if we took two traits but that was a bug or rather an “Anomaly”.

P/P used to have defensive abilities — Feline Grace (endurance refund) and a 1s tick of Black Powder. It’s not much, but it still better than what we have now.

Feline was a trait and not a defensive skill. P/P is the only weapon set in the thief line that doesn’t have direct defensive abilities such as mobility, condition removal, stealth, evasion, etc. This is why in my opinion P/P needs more pressure for power builds as it lacks innate defense.

Comparing P/P+Ricochet with other professions, sure it doesn’t look great. However if you compare P/P+Ricochet to P/D and Shortbow, it is far superior. Even now Shortbow is crap in terms of damage output, P/P still exceeds better in that regards. What you feel about P/P+Ricochet really doesn’t reflect the reality of it.

That just means P/D (which also was gutted when Ricochet was removed) and Shortbow (which should have some nerfs reverted) also need love. A different problematic weapon set doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fix or improve another.

Straegen.2938:

You have been arguing to keep Ricochet out because you think it is too powerful. You were listing off things it could do back then and I was stating at least one example of professions that can do it now (and better).

No, I want Ricochet back given the current meta. What I’m saying is that I understand why they took it out given how squishy everyone was back then.

Either Ricochet is a workable trait that isn’t OP in the current meta and that means ALL of the meta or it isn’t. Other thief weapon sets really don’t matter as to whether we should bring back a modified version of this trait. The thief is the only class that doesn’t have access to effective ranged AoE pressure.

You just basically repeated what I’ve said.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

With the current meta, restoring P/P Ricochet+AnkleShot to its former glory would not be as OP as it was back then when practically everyone were too squishy.

Unload at release:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Unload&oldid=309872

That’s not how it was in game. A lot of times, what shows in the tooltip is not what’s actually happening and wiki records the tooltip. So the tooltip might have shown 900 range, but I know it was 1200 range because I even swap back and forth with my shortbow without any range compensation. I even use P/P against the Claw of Jormag.

Ankle Shots never had the +150 listed in the description even though it did add +150 to the distance. Here is the Sept 2015 update to the Wiki which lists this as an “Anomaly”. They removed that “Anomaly” that same month.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Ankle_Shots&oldid=1075849

You’re right it was Ricochet.

Ricochet gained +150 in Sept 2014:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Ricochet_(trait)&oldid=880672

For about a year we had 1200 range if we took two traits but that was a bug or rather an “Anomaly”.

Whether it’s an anomaly or not, I was Unloading at 1200 range, that much is true. They nerfed the Pistol to 900 range and call it an “anomaly” or “bug” that needs to be fixed, just like other nerfs that the Thief received they call “bug”.

Feline was a trait and not a defensive skill.

Skill, talent, trait…what’s the difference? My point is, P/P relies on the refunded endurance for defense more than other weapon sets.

P/P is the only weapon set in the thief line that doesn’t have direct defensive abilities such as mobility, condition removal, stealth, evasion, etc.

So blind from Black Powder (Skill#5) doesn’t count? Black Powder was an OK defensive skill untill they nerf it because D/P was abusing it.

This is why in my opinion P/P needs more pressure for power builds as it lacks innate defense.

Totally agree.

That just means P/D (which also was gutted when Ricochet was removed) and Shortbow (which should have some nerfs reverted) also need love. A different problematic weapon set doesn’t mean we shouldn’t fix or improve another.

ArenaNet has no mental capacity to improve more than one weapon set at a time. Everytime they do that, they screw up.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

No, I want Ricochet back given the current meta. What I’m saying is that I understand why they took it out given how squishy everyone was back then.

I misunderstood your intent. I think I got your posts mixed up with someone elses and read the intent incorrectly.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

That’s not how it was in game. A lot of times, what shows in the tooltip is not what’s actually happening and wiki records the tooltip. So the tooltip might have shown 900 range, but I know it was 1200 range because I even swap back and forth with my shortbow without any range compensation. I even use P/P against the Claw of Jormag.

I always thought its range was 1050 with Ankle Shots (1200 with the updated to Ricochet), but that was a few years ago so my recollection could be flawed. I can say it was never meant to be a 1200 weapon.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Whether it’s an anomaly or not, I was Unloading at 1200 range, that much is true. They nerfed the Pistol to 900 range and call it an “anomaly” or “bug” that needs to be fixed, just like other nerfs that the Thief received they call “bug”.

They fixed Ankle Shots which dropped the range to 1050 then they removed Ricochet during HoT which left it at 900. I think they inadvertently nerfed the range trying to fix other issues.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Skill, talent, trait…what’s the difference? My point is, P/P relies on the refunded endurance for defense more than other weapon sets.

So blind from Black Powder (Skill#5) doesn’t count? Black Powder was an OK defensive skill untill they nerf it because D/P was abusing it.

Outside of Bound, P/P has little defensive capability. This is fine but that does mean the weapon set needs to hit like a truck. Right now in group situations P/P is both a low DPS weapon set and offers no inherent defensive capability to remain elusive.

Even in duels it greatly under performs because of its lack of or limited defensive capability and how easy it is effectively block it with pets, clones, minions, etc.

Straegen.2938:

They fixed Ankle Shots which dropped the range to 1050 then they removed Ricochet during HoT which left it at 900. I think they inadvertently nerfed the range trying to fix other issues.

The excuse they use on removing Ricochet is pathetic at most. If the bouncing is the problem, then how come Trick Shot (SB #1) still exist?

Outside of Bound, P/P has little defensive capability. This is fine but that does mean the weapon set needs to hit like a truck. Right now in group situations P/P is both a low DPS weapon set and offers no inherent defensive capability to remain elusive.

Even in duels it greatly under performs because of its lack of or limited defensive capability and how easy it is effectively block it with pets, clones, minions, etc.

They need to overhaul P/P first where even the auto-attack should use both main and off-hand weapons. Doing so will improve its overall DPS.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The excuse they use on removing Ricochet is pathetic at most. If the bouncing is the problem, then how come Trick Shot (SB #1) still exist?

I think that is what kittened so many of us off. Ricochet could have been modified to always hit one or two other targets or simply pierce. Its removal just seemed pointless. Add on the SB nerfs and the thief is left with no effective AoE damager in a heavy AoE meta.

(throwing out options here, not saying it’s the best) Alternatively – if pistols are a close range precision instrument (taking away our +150 range trait was so cruel, it didn’t even make it match the range of many base attacks!) – maybe they ignore pets/summons (players?) if not targeted, and hit the enemy that you actually have targeted? Certainly Ricochet or piercing would be preferable, but anything is preferable to a ranger or necro just cycling their pets out as meat shields on tight spaces and choke points where I can’t actually change my angle of attack.

I’m 100% behind the autoattack being tweaked though (thematically, especially for two pistols, though that would be a change to the dual wield mechanic they’re unlikely to entertain), it’s only barely more damage to a single target than the SB trick shot, at 3/4ths the ROF, and everyone knows that plinking a single target with the SB is only useful to fill in the time when you can’t weapon swap or spend initiative.

I had another thief in PVP last night who had a single main-hand weapon equipped (dagger or sword, don’t recall) and I couldn’t tell if he was a complete noob or a troll, but it did get me thinking that with how limited that makes you, they should really make the single-wield #3 have some powerful effects, just to offset the limitations (or change the stealth attack). Might be interesting, anyway.

Straegen.2938:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

The excuse they use on removing Ricochet is pathetic at most. If the bouncing is the problem, then how come Trick Shot (SB #1) still exist?

I think that is what kittened so many of us off. Ricochet could have been modified to always hit one or two other targets or simply pierce. Its removal just seemed pointless. Add on the SB nerfs and the thief is left with no effective AoE damager in a heavy AoE meta.

Piercing would require that the Pistol range be increased, otherwise it would be pointless because you need to have your targets within the 900 range. Ricochet is always the best option and it makes perfect sense for Pistol.

Mesmers have a very complicated Pistol skill #5 compare to Ricochet, where it doesn’t just bounce, but applies different conditions each hit.

Ranger’s axe skill #1 is called Ricochet, hurr hurr, and it bounces all over the place.

So yeah, their reasoning for Ricochet (Thief trait) is total BS.

Piercing on Pistol wouldn’t be for the aoe primarily, but to guarantee your damage hits your intended target.

Though even the lack of piercing could be a balancing factor, considering the ranged burst you can unleash.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Piercing on Pistol wouldn’t be for the aoe primarily, but to guarantee your damage hits your intended target.

Though even the lack of piercing could be a balancing factor, considering the ranged burst you can unleash.

It can go both ways, though. Why not maximize your piercing bullets by positioning yourself to hit multiple targets by guaranteeing that there’s always something between you and your target?

Well yes, you could definitely do that. What I meant was the stray minion or clone wouldn’t be preventing you from hitting the Necro or Mesmer you truly wanted. Or in a zerg situation, you could just spray and pray and that would be fine too.

The primary effect of pierce is the hit the target you want without being body blocked. Extra damage on other non-ai targets is gravy.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Well yes, you could definitely do that. What I meant was the stray minion or clone wouldn’t be preventing you from hitting the Necro or Mesmer you truly wanted. Or in a zerg situation, you could just spray and pray and that would be fine too.

The primary effect of pierce is the hit the target you want without being body blocked. Extra damage on other non-ai targets is gravy.

You still face the “on hit” effect problem triggering on an unintended target.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

You still face the “on hit” effect problem triggering on an unintended target.

That’s a separate factor and was not within our realm of discussion