Guild Wars 2

I’ve been running P/P on my thief ever since I made her 4-5 months ago. I recently picked thief back up again in WvW and have a lot of fun. However, there’s something I really noticed about the P/P thief in the recent warrior / guardian surge.

It’s impossible to come out on trades victorious against guardians and warriors. Unless they’re glass cannon, they’re more or less impossible to not only kill, but to survive against. Warriors have unparalleled mobility, and creating distance from them is near impossible. Their massive base HP pool makes them extremely tanky and nearly impossible to whittle down. Guardians are an entirely different tier at the moment. Impossibly tanky, with just so much CC and base damage. Near 100% retal uptime makes me take about 1-2k retal damage per unload volley while I hit them for the same amount. Autoattacks are utterly useless along with #2 skill. #5 is mildly helpful, and #4 is extremely situtational and difficult to use. (Stopping healing, which I should mention, is absolutely stupid on guardians as their heal skill regenerates 75% of their health with ease.)

In the rare moments where I do happen to get an upper hand over them, they simply run away swinging their greatswords and charging and spinning across the battlefield with ease, often creating 2k+ range distance in less than three seconds.

To sum it up, P/P has zero chasing power, no group fighting application, and half its skills and attributes are irrelevant to the build. It’s weak, and lacks killing potential unless hunting down extremely squishy targets. It’s incapable of kiting unless carrying traits massively leaning toward all for escape and dodge skills (shadowstep, roll for initiative, etc), which gimps the build heavily as they take up slots as necessities in order to survive. It also has zero kiting potential built into the kit and no innate dodge or escape mechanisms.

I love this build and the feel but it is seriously not viable and needs help. It’s extremely unclear how this build is supposed to be used, and very weak. If you’re going to make ranged attacks weaker than melee because range and distance is such a big factor to you, then P/P is a complete failure of an idea. You gave the world a million gap closing tools and P/P nothing to counter that with. Even shortbows and rifles have some sort of distance making abilities. Pistol has nothing.

PS : Make Pistol #2 cripple for like 4 seconds and this build would be so much more viable. It doesn’t even need the vulnerability. Or make #1 a chain and the 3rd shot cripple for 3 seconds or something. ANYTHING. Throw this build a bone.

Just pick perplexity runes and spam Headshot, forget about unload. Even cripple on #1 or on #2 won’t help, as the damage/survivability ratio will be still on basement level, thanks to no stealth nor shadowstep among P/P’s weapon skillset.

Unload would be pretty interesting if it also made you dash (or move a bit faster) in the direction you are running if you aren’t standing still. Add some mobility/defense to the set without breaking it with spammed evades, etc.

I would love unload to be able to shoot the ground to have a sort of a leap blast finisher. Design it sorta of like heartseeker.

AikijinX.6258:

I would love unload to be able to shoot the ground to have a sort of a leap blast finisher. Design it sorta of like heartseeker.

We already have enough problems with thieves spamming HS to get long stealth durations.

The main problem with P/P suggestions is that most of the time, the OP will describe an issue then make a suggestion that doesn’t eliminate the issue or have not consider the scope of the change.

Problems:

1. Any changes made to #1, #2, #4, and #5 will greatly affect the functionality of other weapon sets (D/P, P/D, S/P). We can’t just suggest a change without considering this.
2. Unload is the only thing exclusive to P/P and if there’s any change, it will happen to Unload.
3. Being able to kill someone with P/P will undermine the effectiveness of other weapon set.
4. If you think #1, #2, #4, and #5 are the problem, because they are. Those skills has no place in P/P set.

I have used P/P ever since I made my Thief and I have 1000+ hrs on it. The only solution to this is to give P/P and D/D a five skills dual wield instead of just #3. If Anet made it this way, any tweak that is meant for P/P (or D/D) will only affect P/P ( or D/D). There will be no issue with the other weapon sets.

The “dual wield” attribute is exclusive to Thieves, Anet should take advantage of that.

I don’t think they will do that.

On the other hand, it’s more reasonable to expect some sort of change to pistol #2 – body shot.

I think the dev is thinking about changing it too as we can agree pistol #4 and #5 are in a good spot and pistol #1 is “okay”. Pistol #3 is also more or less okay. Pistol #2 sucks donkey **** for every single build.

If your gear and traits result in having to “whittle down” a target, then you definitely will have problems with P/P.

I use mainly Berzerker (w/ Valkyrie armor), with 10/30/0/0/30, and have had very few problems with roaming Warriors that decide to pick a fight. Between Steal (Sleight + Mug), Withdraw (Lyssa runes), Roll for Initiative, Shadow Step (and Return), and Basilisk Venom (Lyssa runes), and the fact that 2-3 Unloads will generally drop their health <50% (+dmg%) within 5~ seconds, keeping distance is generally not a long-term necessity. If they’re running a bunker-build, then heal-on-crit food (w/ Withdraw @ 15secs) will probably keep you full health.

I generally don’t roam, however, and so my setup accommodates that fact (I don’t think P/P is best intended for 1v1 scenarios anyways ;P). We have the capability of avoiding pressure in small-to-massive fights, while also punishing anyone that chooses not to pressure us. When you can sweep through the side-lines of 40+ enemy, and drop 3 targets in <1min (not down them), then it gives you constant, warm-fuzzy feelings.

If P/P has any issues, it’s as others have stated numerous times — the cost-effectiveness of its other weapon-skills. Under most circumstances, for example, it’s more effective just to spam Unload.

Here’s a way to fix P/P:
Change Body Shot to Explosive Powder(Thief shoots the ground causing an explosion that deal good damage and inflict burning. Blast Finisher.)
Put the vulnerability of Body Shot on Unload(This is similar to what they did with the ranger’s rapid fire)

And that’s it. The set has more ways to survive via stealth, no skills can be spammed, it now can function as both a condi spec as a power one. The burning is also a necessary buff to P/D condi spec.

I’d suggest pistol #2 to become “flame and frost shot”, adding burning and chilled for 2 secs. Even according to the “leaked notes” it won’t be anyhow OP, but both P/x sets would benefit from it.
Also i want #3 skill to add vulnerability, so power line with condi duration would still be a good choice for P/P

dDuff.3860:

Also i want #3 skill to add vulnerability, so power line with condi duration would still be a good choice for P/P

You can trait it to get the vulnerability. Having that capability on the weapon skill will be either redundant or extremely OP.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

dDuff.3860:

Also i want #3 skill to add vulnerability, so power line with condi duration would still be a good choice for P/P

You can trait it to get the vulnerability. Having that capability on the weapon skill will be either redundant or extremely OP.

So body shot is OP on your opinion?
Even if taking into consideration this trait, i think that 8 stacks of vuln on unload is fine, paired with some vuln from trait it could do a thing to P/P, but still i can’t see P/P being OP in this case.

dDuff.3860:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

dDuff.3860:

Also i want #3 skill to add vulnerability, so power line with condi duration would still be a good choice for P/P

You can trait it to get the vulnerability. Having that capability on the weapon skill will be either redundant or extremely OP.

So body shot is OP on your opinion?

What body shot got to do with Unload? What’s your point of even bringing this up?

Even if taking into consideration this trait, i think that 8 stacks of vuln on unload is fine, paired with some vuln from trait it could do a thing to P/P, but still i can’t see P/P being OP in this case.

This is the problem that I always see in this forum. Your field of view is too narrow and it’s the main reason why you don’t see it.

For your sake I’ll explain.
- Vulnerability gives +1% damage per stack up to 25 stacks.
— Sources: Sundering strike (trait), body shot, CnD
- Exposed weakness (trait) give +10% damage on target with condition (in this case Vuln)
- Combined training (trait) gives +5% damage (in this case Unload)
- First Strikes (trait) gives +10% damage if Init > 6
- Pistol Mastery (trait) +10% pistol damage
- Executioner (trait) +20% damage to target < 50% HP
- Flanking Strikes (trait) +5% damage if attacks are from behind/side

Now depending on the build, all these gets crazy when you factor in crit chance and crit damage on top of condition damage.

Right now I can single-handedly maintain 10-12 stacks of vulnerability on my target.

If your proposed change will take into effect, I can single-handedly stacks up to 20 or maybe even 25 stacks if I have condition duration items. Who needs a party anymore?

I suggest changing the init cost of pistol #2 to 4, keeping the vuln shot, but giving it a leap finisher and cause your character to flip backwards (evade) whilst firing the shot.
This would allow p/p to have access to some stealth (pistol 5 and pistol 2) but the cost would make it difficult to stack as much stealth as a d/p does.

pistol can already cripple 100% of the time with the crippling trait…
that would let the pistol have either a good defense stealth strategy using 5 and 2 – lots of blinds, movement, cripples, and some stealth, or a more aggressive strategy using 4 and 3.

Master Trait VII Ankle Shots
Critical hits with a pistol have a 60% chance to cripple foes for 3s. (Cooldown of 10 seconds).
Instead of complaining, just adapt to what you feel is missing.. 10% pistol damage or 3 sec cripple, not to say theres quite a few utility skills you can slot..

As a pp thief the only issue I got is Mesmers and those Spirit Rangers.. There should be a Piercing trait for Pistols, just like rifle warriors got. Cuz really the amount of kittenblock with pets and illusions is stupid.. Worse enuf pistol is single target so you cant do much.. ow well

I run p/p sometimes and the only thing that the devs would have to do to make me use #2 is make it pierce. It doesn’t even have to work with ricochet.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

dDuff.3860:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

dDuff.3860:

Also i want #3 skill to add vulnerability, so power line with condi duration would still be a good choice for P/P

You can trait it to get the vulnerability. Having that capability on the weapon skill will be either redundant or extremely OP.

So body shot is OP on your opinion?

What body shot got to do with Unload? What’s your point of even bringing this up?

Even if taking into consideration this trait, i think that 8 stacks of vuln on unload is fine, paired with some vuln from trait it could do a thing to P/P, but still i can’t see P/P being OP in this case.

This is the problem that I always see in this forum. Your field of view is too narrow and it’s the main reason why you don’t see it.

For your sake I’ll explain.
- Vulnerability gives +1% damage per stack up to 25 stacks.
— Sources: Sundering strike (trait), body shot, CnD
- Exposed weakness (trait) give +10% damage on target with condition (in this case Vuln)
- Combined training (trait) gives +5% damage (in this case Unload)
- First Strikes (trait) gives +10% damage if Init > 6
- Pistol Mastery (trait) +10% pistol damage
- Executioner (trait) +20% damage to target < 50% HP
- Flanking Strikes (trait) +5% damage if attacks are from behind/side

Now depending on the build, all these gets crazy when you factor in crit chance and crit damage on top of condition damage.

Right now I can single-handedly maintain 10-12 stacks of vulnerability on my target.

If your proposed change will take into effect, I can single-handedly stacks up to 20 or maybe even 25 stacks if I have condition duration items. Who needs a party anymore?

So what your saying is if changes went in like that, you still couldnt stack vulv as well as engi, or others, on a single target, let alone aoe. why is it op for us, but not for other classes?

Shemsu.8721:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

dDuff.3860:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

dDuff.3860:

Also i want #3 skill to add vulnerability, so power line with condi duration would still be a good choice for P/P

You can trait it to get the vulnerability. Having that capability on the weapon skill will be either redundant or extremely OP.

So body shot is OP on your opinion?

What body shot got to do with Unload? What’s your point of even bringing this up?

Even if taking into consideration this trait, i think that 8 stacks of vuln on unload is fine, paired with some vuln from trait it could do a thing to P/P, but still i can’t see P/P being OP in this case.

This is the problem that I always see in this forum. Your field of view is too narrow and it’s the main reason why you don’t see it.

For your sake I’ll explain.
- Vulnerability gives +1% damage per stack up to 25 stacks.
— Sources: Sundering strike (trait), body shot, CnD
- Exposed weakness (trait) give +10% damage on target with condition (in this case Vuln)
- Combined training (trait) gives +5% damage (in this case Unload)
- First Strikes (trait) gives +10% damage if Init > 6
- Pistol Mastery (trait) +10% pistol damage
- Executioner (trait) +20% damage to target < 50% HP
- Flanking Strikes (trait) +5% damage if attacks are from behind/side

Now depending on the build, all these gets crazy when you factor in crit chance and crit damage on top of condition damage.

Right now I can single-handedly maintain 10-12 stacks of vulnerability on my target.

If your proposed change will take into effect, I can single-handedly stacks up to 20 or maybe even 25 stacks if I have condition duration items. Who needs a party anymore?

So what your saying is if changes went in like that, you still couldnt stack vulv as well as engi, or others, on a single target, let alone aoe. why is it op for us, but not for other classes?

Let the other class be OP, that has nothing to do with Thieves. If they remain OP and Anet acknowledge it, then they’ll get the nbat not us.

The question is, if you acknowledge that to be OP, then why in the world are you setting up the profession to get the nbat?

Let’s think for a minute.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

dDuff.3860:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

dDuff.3860:

Also i want #3 skill to add vulnerability, so power line with condi duration would still be a good choice for P/P

You can trait it to get the vulnerability. Having that capability on the weapon skill will be either redundant or extremely OP.

So body shot is OP on your opinion?

What body shot got to do with Unload? What’s your point of even bringing this up?

Even if taking into consideration this trait, i think that 8 stacks of vuln on unload is fine, paired with some vuln from trait it could do a thing to P/P, but still i can’t see P/P being OP in this case.

This is the problem that I always see in this forum. Your field of view is too narrow and it’s the main reason why you don’t see it.

For your sake I’ll explain.
- Vulnerability gives +1% damage per stack up to 25 stacks.
— Sources: Sundering strike (trait), body shot, CnD
- Exposed weakness (trait) give +10% damage on target with condition (in this case Vuln)
- Combined training (trait) gives +5% damage (in this case Unload)
- First Strikes (trait) gives +10% damage if Init > 6
- Pistol Mastery (trait) +10% pistol damage
- Executioner (trait) +20% damage to target < 50% HP
- Flanking Strikes (trait) +5% damage if attacks are from behind/side

Now depending on the build, all these gets crazy when you factor in crit chance and crit damage on top of condition damage.

Right now I can single-handedly maintain 10-12 stacks of vulnerability on my target.

If your proposed change will take into effect, I can single-handedly stacks up to 20 or maybe even 25 stacks if I have condition duration items. Who needs a party anymore?

Even all the things you’ve counted didn’t bring P/P up. So you called me narrow minded about giving a suggestion to bring more viability to sets that are forgotten.
What about you being stubborn on your point of view? Anyway burning all ini for those precious stacks would starve you out of any other tricks beside using your utilities, which are can’t be a part of damaging rotation in that way. So you are calling me narrow minded about reworking 10 vuln from body shot to 8 unload. Isn’t it OP now? P/P lacks of any control to enemy, so out of ini it is trashwagon.
And how am i narrow minded?
Huh?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shemsu.8721:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

dDuff.3860:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

dDuff.3860:

Also i want #3 skill to add vulnerability, so power line with condi duration would still be a good choice for P/P

You can trait it to get the vulnerability. Having that capability on the weapon skill will be either redundant or extremely OP.

So body shot is OP on your opinion?

What body shot got to do with Unload? What’s your point of even bringing this up?

Even if taking into consideration this trait, i think that 8 stacks of vuln on unload is fine, paired with some vuln from trait it could do a thing to P/P, but still i can’t see P/P being OP in this case.

This is the problem that I always see in this forum. Your field of view is too narrow and it’s the main reason why you don’t see it.

For your sake I’ll explain.
- Vulnerability gives +1% damage per stack up to 25 stacks.
— Sources: Sundering strike (trait), body shot, CnD
- Exposed weakness (trait) give +10% damage on target with condition (in this case Vuln)
- Combined training (trait) gives +5% damage (in this case Unload)
- First Strikes (trait) gives +10% damage if Init > 6
- Pistol Mastery (trait) +10% pistol damage
- Executioner (trait) +20% damage to target < 50% HP
- Flanking Strikes (trait) +5% damage if attacks are from behind/side

Now depending on the build, all these gets crazy when you factor in crit chance and crit damage on top of condition damage.

Right now I can single-handedly maintain 10-12 stacks of vulnerability on my target.

If your proposed change will take into effect, I can single-handedly stacks up to 20 or maybe even 25 stacks if I have condition duration items. Who needs a party anymore?

So what your saying is if changes went in like that, you still couldnt stack vulv as well as engi, or others, on a single target, let alone aoe. why is it op for us, but not for other classes?

Let the other class be OP, that has nothing to do with Thieves. If they remain OP and Anet acknowledge it, then they’ll get the nbat not us.

The question is, if you acknowledge that to be OP, then why in the world are you setting up the profession to get the nbat?

Let’s think for a minute.

Thats just it, I do NOT acknowledge a class being able to stack one single condition up to be op. Many classes can do that with vuln and/or bleeds up to 25 stacks on multiple targets, and its NOT seen as op. So why would it be for thief to do it to a single target. I’m not acknowledging, I’m asking for a reasonable explanation