Guild Wars 2

Alright,

So before we get the “l2p” people freaking out, first let me say that I play thief, and I’m not complaining because I’ve been killed by it, but because I simply feel bad for killing others like this so easily, and it needs to be fixed.

Frankly, Pistol Whip with frenzy is ridiculous.

People can argue, but I can put 3 pistol whips back to back to back, in which the target is stunned for a total of 1.5 seconds while I put them out, but the real issue is that because its 3 separate stuns, they can’t escape in between .5 second stuns. In that time, I can 16k damage, plus the average 4k damage from steal.

That’s 20k damage in 4 seconds. While my target is stunned. And its AoE.

Sure, people can use a stun breaker, yet usually that only saves them from the last 1, maybe 1 and half pistol whips, by which time they’re already missing over half of their hp.

You could say dodge, but generally I open while in stealth so they never see me coming anyways.

Overall, this combination is just getting silly. I’m not saying pistol whip is OP by itself, but this combination is causing a lot of grief and needs to be balance somehow.

I would say take away the stun, but then pistol whip becomes useless by itself. I’d say decrease the damage, but then pistol whip is again useless by itself.

I don’t know what fix there is, but the ability to lockdown your enemy with 3 1.5 second stuns in a row, and do 20k damage is just a little over the edge.

I have since changed specs because its just not fair, and I don’t want to see builds like that in the game. There should never be an auto-win button.

My question isn’t on whether it should be changed (Because we can all admit this combination is ridiculous), but how?

3 pistol whips = a 4.5 second stun? You trollin brah? I think people just need to learn how to not stand still in PvP?

You’re right, its a .5 second stun. What I meant was that by the time they’re unstunned, you can recast it and stun them again. By the end of the last cast, its been 4.5 seconds they’ve been completely inactive for.

.5 second stun.

All anyone has to do is mash dodge.. you cannot chain stun someone with pistol whip, even with haste up.. if they stand still and take all those stuns/hits they are bad.

Against anyone with there wits about them.. you will land that first stun and get some damage in, after that you will be burning steal/shadowstep.. other mobility to get near them again to get the next one off

I play a sword/pistol thief as well.. the OP’s post isn’t entirely accurate, I will agree that the skill hits freaking hard though! (all melee, channeled abilities seem to hit very hard.. probably because it in turn is so hard to keep players standing in them)

one, it’s a .5 second stun
two, people aren’t carrying stun breaks yet because LOL GLASS CANNONS EVERYWHERE
all you have to do is hit a stun break which every class has and you have successfully wasted 5 initiative for the thief and quite a bit of their burst
people don’t know how to play yet imo

My point is that I don’t think there should be an option for classes with a one combo win. You can take the best player in the world, and if he is out of endurance, and his stun breaks are on CD, any bad pistol whip spammer can kill him.

I have the same issue with the hundred blade combo.

I’m not saying you can’t win, all I’m saying is that it shouldn’t even be an option.

Regardless of if the person gets away, one pistol whip does about 7.5k damage. That’s FAR too much for one ability, especially when you have the ability to use it 3 times in a row.

IMO, pistol whip leaves you too vulnerable, you pop it, they dodge the “7.5k” dmg you want to put out is just hitting air. its a very tolerable skill, any player who knows a thief and sees a sword instantly should kite anyway. if anything pistol whip should be used as an interrupt, it is not ideal in a pvp situation

bad tactics only work against bad players. Most of pistol whip’s damage takes place after the stun has already worn off. It also only stuns one target, so don’t go out solo and you will never have a problem with sword thieves unless both of you are pretty much AFK.

If the stun is so worthless why not just take it off Anet? See how many of your explode into tears.

Shredicus.8706:

If the stun is so worthless why not just take it off Anet? See how many of your explode into tears.

Because nerfing something that isn’t OP would prove that they don’t care about balance and only do whatever people cry about most. Get better.

Only way pistolwhip + haste is viable is if they have basilisk, and devourer venom on as well. which lets you get 2 guaranteed pw’s off (unless they have condition removal)

@Fateless: A good player would see the Thief has Sword and Pistol and save a Stun-Break for the occasion, or take other measures to deal with it.

it’s a pretty ridiculous move. i’ve tried it. i was impressed by the power to waste people but saw it fail just as much as it succeeded, and became burnt out in less than 1 session of playing that like because there was nothing i could do but go around trying to wreck people before they could do anything to me. just wasn’t that fun after the novelty of the burst settled down.

however when used in tournaments i understand it can be very potent when you play effectively as roamer, basically doing a job of finishing battles wherever they may spark. i used oshef’s version with haste, signet of agility and shadows. plus signet usage traits, mug, and 20 trickery for thrill of the crime and trickster.

i haven’t read what others have said, but here’s the reason why it isn’t OP:
even if we do Not consider the animation delays, and think of PW as a 1/2sec stun then 2sec of sword swinging, when you do frenzy it’s 1/2sec stun and 1sec of sword swinging, which means if the person uses the dodge roll ONLY once, he/she can get out of your burst.
and that was even without a stunbreaker. Thar.

@Fateless: your “if” sentence has no meaning … no endurance end no stun breaks = death, but not only against a thief.
however a solution could be make the stun scale with haste; 0.5 sec normal → 0.25 sec with haste.
Double speed swinging your sword and double speed in recovering from the stun.

Daendur.2357:

@Fateless: your “if” sentence has no meaning … no endurance end no stun breaks = death, but not only against a thief.
however a solution could be make the stun scale with haste; 0.5 sec normal -> 0.25 sec with haste.
Double speed swinging your sword and double speed in recovering from the stun.

u dumb bro?

what the kitten is the point of haste if it benefits the player we are bursting as well?

Op your are completely correct, also stealth is broken on this profession to the point you can just perma stealth in this game while doing damage. There is an exploit to stay stealthy when taking damage and when doing damage, also where you don’t appear on the other persons screen but you are actually out of stealth attacking them.

This profession is so overpowered and so easily exploited yet arena net lock any topics anyone says anyhing about it, they still have not balanced the profession or commented on it. They just delete posts and lock topics with lame reasons.

Makes me laugh how players come rushing to defend the thief and keep it overpowered for aslong as possible.

Hundred Blades with frenzy is ridiculous.

Daendur.2357:

@Fateless: your “if” sentence has no meaning … no endurance end no stun breaks = death, but not only against a thief.
however a solution could be make the stun scale with haste; 0.5 sec normal -> 0.25 sec with haste.
Double speed swinging your sword and double speed in recovering from the stun.

Sorry, did you just suggest that the skill should have a shorter stun duration when the thief has haste? That makes absolutely, positively no sense. No other skill in the entire game gets penalized because you have a boon, and rightly so.

There can be adjustments to the move, but minor at best. Major executions of it have a lot of downsides and smart players can avoid it. Failure to connect with certain skill combos leaves the player in a terrible situation as well. It should remain because SP doesn’t have a lot of damage potential without the skill unless you really work a build that offers damage boons and flat bonuses to your attacks in general.

Which can be done, to be sure. I have build that only uses PW sparingly. Uses my main attack a lot but it requires a lot of set up and smart target choices. But without PW having some general effectiveness, the weapon set suffers. So, if there are adjustments, they probably can’t be the major nerf people might want. Just some tweaking.

bwillb.2165:

Sorry, did you just suggest that the skill should have a shorter stun duration when the thief has haste? That makes absolutely, positively no sense. No other skill in the entire game gets penalized because you have a boon, and rightly so.

They can do it even for other professions. Frenzy + Bull’s Charge could act the same way.

I really don’t see how people can defend the haste + pistolwhip combo. All I need to do is apply devourer venom and get sigil of superior paralysis (15% stun duration increase) and the other player has a maybe a .5 sec window to dodge. No one should be allowed to get a guaranteed kill because of a boon. The only solution is a stun breaker, but that has a high chance to be on cooldown since thief isn’t the only profession with stuns.

Also even if someone does manage to dodge, you can still steal during the pistolwhip attack (after the actual stun animation). So you can STILL get a few hits off after a person dodges. So the whole argument that a dodge wastes 5 initiative is wrong, you still deal damage, just no stun. If you use the abilty/sigil i mentioned the only chance the opponent will have to dodge is the 3rd pistol whip in which the stun doesn’t matter as much anyway.

pistol whip stuns for 0.5 seconds, not 1.5 seconds. the target DOES have an opportunity to react in some way.

not that i disagree that the combo of Haste + Devourer Venom + Pistol Whip is very strong. Thats a very strong way to kill 1 person every 60 seconds.

Do I think there is a class balance issue because a Thief built in a particular way is able to easily kill a single target once per minute? Nope. What do you do for the other 56 seconds in that minute?

@Metalphorm

That does not mean one should just drop dead every minute to a thief either. Like I said in my earlier post, the opponent has no chance to react until the third pistol whip. The stun doesn’t even matter for the last one cuz you can still steal mid attack (after the stun root is done and you’re swinging the blade) so you’ll still be doing damage even though someone dodged out of the attack.

metaphorm.6904:

[cut] What do you do for the other 56 seconds in that minute?

maybe go into other professions forums complaining about things that you barely know, like everyone is doing with thief’s forum…

Another thief complaint thread cry more….go complain on the warrior forums…100 blades does same damage they have wqtice the durability we do…qq less

Daendur.2357:

metaphorm.6904:

[cut] What do you do for the other 56 seconds in that minute?

maybe go into other professions forums complaining about things that you barely know, like everyone is doing with thief’s forum…

Well said indeed.

On a side note, I do enjoy people complaining about thieves when warriors burst for just as much when spec’d glass cannon but have twice the base health and heavy armor, and yet do I go kitten up there forum? No.

maybe go into other professions forums complaining about things that you barely know, like everyone is doing with thief’s forum

I play thief, and I’ve played this build. I’m complaining because I don’t think ANY class should be able to guarantee a kill based off of 1 boon. I’d rather have a balanced and fun game than try and defend something that needs a change.

it’s not a kill based off of 1 boon, it’s a kill based off of 1 entire build: weapons, traits, and utility skills.

Daendur.2357:

it’s not a kill based off of 1 boon, it’s a kill based off of 1 entire build: weapons, traits, and utility skills.

Its 1 boon that’s allowing the build to instantly kill people. Without quickness you wouldn’t see people complaining about it.

Thadren Calder.1397:

Daendur.2357:

metaphorm.6904:

[cut] What do you do for the other 56 seconds in that minute?

maybe go into other professions forums complaining about things that you barely know, like everyone is doing with thief’s forum…

Well said indeed.

On a side note, I do enjoy people complaining about thieves when warriors burst for just as much when spec’d glass cannon but have twice the base health and heavy armor, and yet do I go kitten up there forum? No.

really?
a full glass cannon warrior can do about 14k dmg on a very squishy target with hundred blades, however, it’s the easiest skill to dodge ever and has a long cooldown. if he’s buitl like that you can 1shot him just as quick as if he hundred blades on you, and you will squish him like butter. A thief is always squishy, no matter what, but if you get someone in a pistol whip + quickness, you do about 10k damage in about 2seconds, and if you’re playing it right the enemy is immobilized and a stunbreaker won’t work, they also need condi removal.

Countering a hundred blade warrior is super easy, 1 stunbreak and you’re out, countering pistol whip.. if you don’t watch yourself for 1 second, he will do half of your health instantly, if he immobilizes you, it’s all your health. I’ve played against both, and as both, and pistol whip thief is the only class in the game that can burst people down pretty much instantly, while being pretty hard to counter if played right.

Let’s say you’re out of haste for the next 56 seconds.. so what? you’re still glass cannon and do 1k crits with shortbow from far enough range, and if anyone really wants to kill you you can jump away or stealth. Even without haste pistol whip outdamages anything else. every pistol whip is a 6k crit and takes 1.5seconds, no other class can do that.

Daendur.2357:

it’s not a kill based off of 1 boon, it’s a kill based off of 1 entire build: weapons, traits, and utility skills.

Not to mention it leaves you weak afterward unless you take measures to deal with it.

Dual.8953:

Daendur.2357:

it’s not a kill based off of 1 boon, it’s a kill based off of 1 entire build: weapons, traits, and utility skills.

Not to mention it leaves you weak afterward unless you take measures to deal with it.

That is not the point of this discussion. Yes you can only kill someone every minute, yes you can’t dodge once you use haste. The point of this discussion is that the person on the receiving end has to take it, he has no choice. If he dodges, the thief can still steal mid attack and do the damage minus the stun. A stun breaker wont always work because most thieves that use this build use the devourer venom, so condition removal is required as well. There is just very little, if anything, the opponent can do and no one should just drop dead every minute to any profession.

It’s a novice ability being exploited by zerging. Just bring some peeps with you and have them immobilize spam. An run around and spam #3 with sword/pistol. An this method is endless kills but requires people to set it up for you. It’s just a very novice set up. Easy kills but you will never be considered a good player using this method. Me personally being a thief won’t touch this set up until they actually make it require effort or I will get bored and fall asleep.

The solution is obvious. Haste, frenzy, and quickness need to be removed from the game. This is coming someone who mains a Thief and has a Ranger alt btw.

There are plenty of things to do.
The stun on PW isn’t instant, and if a S/P thief is on you, you should know what’s coming.

A ele can mist form/blink/frost armor & dodge/blind
A warrior can shield block, stability, knockdown
A ranger can use protect me, ult, or use dodge skills on the sword/Shb
A necro can death shroud
A guardian can stability, blind, teleport to a nearby target
A engineer will auto gain protection, elixir S, block (if using shield), blind (if using pistol), knockback/down
A mesmer can teleport, invis, distortion, daze

Plenty of ways to counter. Plenty of ways for thieves to bait, as you can haste during PW and not interrupt the ability. Unlike warrior who has to Frenzy before HB.

I’m surprised to see this thread still going strong, if this kind of build is so op.. why don’t highly skilled 5v5 spvp teams run them?

Because these one trick pony style of builds are EASILY avoidable.. you might get caught out once, after that you just resort to the methods you have available to avoid this stuff.. hundred blades + frenzy is actually freaking hard to land on a good player.. same goes for pistol whip + haste, if you load up on venoms you are throwing ALL of your eggs into one basket.

If you are fine with that, go ahead.. you will catch out bad players and think you are awesome, it doesn’t work on everyone.

Fury.6248:

It’s a novice ability being exploited by zerging. Just bring some peeps with you and have them immobilize spam. An run around and spam #2 with sword/pistol. An this method is endless kills but requires people to set it up for you. It’s just a very novice set up. Easy kills but you will never be considered a good player using this method. Me personally being a thief won’t touch this set up until they actually make it require effort or I will get bored and fall asleep.

This is how i feel about it.

Why don’t you just admit it?

You main a mesmer and got pwned?

Sick of this ’I play a thief but I think this is OP’ crap.

Regardless of why hes posting about it. I am a thief and I think frenzy and all ability’s like it should be reworked. They don’t really feel like they fit in the type of pvp GW2 is trying to create. If they want epic 1v1’s and epic 5v5 team fights these utilities are complete garbage and just fuel zerging. The goal is to increase the skill cap of playing gw2 not reduce it. Also OP there is nothing wrong with the #3 attack. The only thing they need to change is how the Quickness utilities work.

Zed.9508:

That is not the point of this discussion. Yes you can only kill someone every minute, yes you can’t dodge once you use haste. The point of this discussion is that the person on the receiving end has to take it, he has no choice. I

Yes, he has to take it. Its a strategy that delivers a successful kill on a single target with > 90% success rate against that target. Its very hard to get away from it. The Pistol Whip burst damage build is extremely favored in 1v1 fights.

The game isn’t balanced around 1v1 fights. End of story. What’s left to discuss here?

Fury.6248:

Regardless of why hes posting about it. I am a thief and I think frenzy and all ability’s like it should be reworked. They don’t really feel like they fit in the type of pvp GW2 is trying to create. If they want epic 1v1’s and epic 5v5 team fights these utilities are complete garbage and just fuel zerging. The goal is to increase the skill cap of playing gw2 not reduce it.

Yeah well your idea of skill is not everyone else’s.

First of all the game obviously isn’t about 1v1. Second, what ever happened to ‘skill’ as you say? As in… Learning to counter such crap? I’m not a fan of anything other than d/d/sb ..but if players want to use these sorts of tricks… how hard can it be to learn counters?

It’s not hard to counter. At the same time it does not fit in GW2. Most players are proactive in creating a better pvp environment. Looking at the overall picture people do not need Quickness utilities to score points. It’s actually looked down upon for taking those abilities because they are for amateurs. So why even keep them as is if they are a joke? Rework them and allow them to be added to more skillful builds. If my 5year old little girl can sit on my lap and pull off a frenzy pistol whip kill it does not belong in a game for adults and should be reworked to something with more thought put into it.

It’s the same exact situation that occured with fury warriors at the start of cata. They could pop all CDs are pretty much one shot people. It was soooo incredibly easy to counter. Just CC them or kite them or remove enraged. But the point is… it does not fit in the pvp environment we are trying to create. Why would anyone want to be discredited for using a kitten utility? If it was reworked at least we would have another utility at our disposal for our builds.

Fury.6248:

It’s the same exact situation that occured with fury warriors at the start of cata. They could pop all CDs are pretty much one shot people. It was soooo incredibly easy to counter. Just CC them or kite them or remove enraged. But the point is… it does not fit in the pvp environment we are trying to create. Why would anyone want to be discredited for using a kitten utility? If it was reworked at least we would have another utility at our disposal for our builds.

Quickness utility skills are designed to temporarily increase burst damage output while decreasing the user’s defensive capabilities. All four of the quickness skills do this quite well. It’s working as intended. You may not like it, but it fits fine into ARENANET’s plan.

bwillb.2165:

Fury.6248:

It’s the same exact situation that occured with fury warriors at the start of cata. They could pop all CDs are pretty much one shot people. It was soooo incredibly easy to counter. Just CC them or kite them or remove enraged. But the point is… it does not fit in the pvp environment we are trying to create. Why would anyone want to be discredited for using a kitten utility? If it was reworked at least we would have another utility at our disposal for our builds.

Quickness utility skills are designed to temporarily increase burst damage output while decreasing the user’s defensive capabilities. All four of the quickness skills do this quite well. It’s working as intended. You may not like it, but it fits fine into ARENANET’s plan.

Glad you can speak on behalf of arena.net what position do you currently hold within the company? Opinions are never wrong everyone is allowed one. So I will be promoting the quickness change till my 5yr old little girl is unable to pvp on a game rated Teen 13 and up. But thanks for your input.