Guild Wars 2

Hey guy’s, I been surfing around on the Thief forum for just this topic-and lo-I find this one near the top.

I recently started a P/P Thief and so far have loved it far much more over then my R-Warrior. It feels a lot more mobile (Especially running Roll for Ini, and Shadowstep. And switching out accordingly)

Though I feel it’s alot more fun and less “become a living turret” then the Warrior. I still can’t decide on whether or not I should use Shortbow, Daggers, or Dagger/Pistol.

Love the feeling of Dagger/Pistol while in WvW/PvE with my P/P on the swap. Still just unsure.

After reading through this thread though, it seem’s that a lot of people believe the P/P is far too predictable for being very useful in PvP (WvW-wise). So far it hasn’t been too bad playing it like a skirmisher/ambusher/blind-sider. I haven’t been playing that long, so I don’t know if it’s me or what.

Overall I say it’s a lot more fun then Warrior! Atleast for me it is.

Drawing Guy.3701:

Ensign.2189:

It’s an ok build for PvE, particularly dungeon content that is difficult for your group; it’s a pretty strong ranged DPS character, though it offers little else.

hmmm – a spammable near instant interrupt (making it not only easy to twitch interrupt, but keep their big attacks shut down), the ability to singularly bump a target to 25 vuln for a party burst, a blind spam, and one of the best field projectile finishers in the game. It may not be the DPS of backstab spam, but it has other features, and is always reliable dps. But then to be honest, a thief should carry ALL his weapons. Your pistol burst build would work as a dagger backstab burst too. So against a boss that is relatively static and no constant AoE to keep you off him? Use daggers. Have a boss that can 1-shot you or is completely anti-melee? Use pistols.

Every weapon combo is viable for thief – but not for every single situation. P/P is not ok, it rocks socks if used right. Same with any other combo. If there are 20 trash mobs, I’ll think you’re foolish for using D/D. If three warriors are perma-25 stacking bleeds and you step in with P/D, I’ll sigh. If you’re twanging away with SB on the single boss that is already being effectively poisoned/weakened, I’ll be wishing you packed P/P.

TL;DR – If you think any given weapon set sucks for a thief, it’s because you haven’t properly explored it yet. Seriously explore for yourself before you down talk anything. Pick weapons that fit your playstyle, and have fun. Just try to stay flexible as changing to fit the situation is the key to being effective vs just ‘ok’.

This is exactly correct in my experience. Whether I’m running between objectives in WvW (and what kind of resistance we expect) or mob/boss types in a dungeon or even just roaming in PvE, I’m always changing at least one of my weapon loadouts on the way.

I happen to run your exact 25/30/0/15/0 build in your other post, because Unload is just amazing, plus I happen to enjoy the play style. The only difference is I slot Power of Inertia instead of Vigorous Recovery, because I’m dodging constantly (especially with Feline Grace) and so Unload hits even harder. With PoI I use it as basically a burst-loader, dodging on my way in just to start stacking power for my first couple unloads. I always total somewhere between 12k-15k and with a decent amount of crits it’s not unusual to top 20k. It hurts an enemy bad, and if they are not running by then I can close the gap switching to D/P and Shadow Shot, then Heartseeker spam. I slot Shadow Refuge or Hide in Shadows to get away if needed.

Thieves don’t need to be chain-stealthers or dagger reliant to be a lethal class and very fun to play. But I think that’s the point of GW2 design—many viable options that are effective if you figure it out. I’m just glad the Thief is so kitten fun.

Thank you for your build input as well; I’m always looking for new things to try.

Sifu.6527:

P/P is awesome in duels.

It beats P/D, S/D, S/P, SB, D/D, etc you name it.

Not if I’m playing most of the other weapon sets, it doesn’t. It is workable against a lot of players, though.

P/P needs Bodyshot to be replaced with some other ability that has PBAoE and a Blast finisher, IMO. Call it “Overcharged Shot” or “Proof Round” or something…I can already imagine the comical Asura animation.

RedKhus.7546:

This is exactly correct in my experience. Whether I’m running between objectives in WvW (and what kind of resistance we expect) or mob/boss types in a dungeon or even just roaming in PvE, I’m always changing at least one of my weapon loadouts on the way.

I happen to run your exact 25/30/0/15/0 build in your other post, because Unload is just amazing, plus I happen to enjoy the play style. The only difference is I slot Power of Inertia instead of Vigorous Recovery, because I’m dodging constantly (especially with Feline Grace) and so Unload hits even harder. With PoI I use it as basically a burst-loader, dodging on my way in just to start stacking power for my first couple unloads. I always total somewhere between 12k-15k and with a decent amount of crits it’s not unusual to top 20k. It hurts an enemy bad, and if they are not running by then I can close the gap switching to D/P and Shadow Shot, then Heartseeker spam. I slot Shadow Refuge or Hide in Shadows to get away if needed.

Thieves don’t need to be chain-stealthers or dagger reliant to be a lethal class and very fun to play. But I think that’s the point of GW2 design—many viable options that are effective if you figure it out. I’m just glad the Thief is so kitten fun.

Thank you for your build input as well; I’m always looking for new things to try.

The only thing is I find the vigor for extra dodges to be a bigger deal than an extra 100 attack power. Of course any situation where you wont need all of those dodges to avoid damage, you should switch to inertia… but I find part of the key to success is high evasion to go with this type of build.

Go figure. I run a different spec than most of you mention:
P/P + SB
0/30(III, VII, XI)/20(IV,VI)/0/20(IV,VII – would be X, but 20% chance is crapola)
Vit/Healing/C.Dmg Armour (and 6 Superior Melandru), and the eventual plan’s for Rampager weapons/Exotic trinkets.
(I probably should switch things around for 30 SA + Trait XI, tbh … still putzing about
on which Traitline to drop.)
Heal: HiS or Withdraw
Utilities:S.Refuge/Shadowstep(or RFI)/SoS
Elite: Thieves’ Guild

Fact is, I got into this weapon spread due to it feeling almost like a Bullet-Hell game.
I love zipping about, blasting the living crap out of folks. Although, yes … I am rather
squishy if caught flat-footed.

ProxyDamage.9826:

Bassman.9245:

I can’t believe some ppl choose Roll for Initiative over Shadowstep, and call themselves thieves

That would be because you’re a bad “copy paste” Thief who doesn’t know what each skill is for.

Shadowstep is absolutely godlike for melee builds that have to get in and out quickly. It gives you a massive teleport and two stun breakers that allow you to either instantly catch up with an enemy, or get away from pursuers.

Roll for Initiative is far better for ranged builds. Not only is it a stun breaker, but it allows you to create distance from an enemy quickly – while keeping your face turned to them (which is far more useful for a ranged build) AND giving you an initiative boost AND cleaning cripples, chills and immobilizes – The three most dangerous conditions to any ranged build.

If your build can accommodate both – even better.

The reason you see Shadowstep used more often is because most thieves are melee, dagger based, builds, in wich Shadowstep rules supreme.

really? that is so NOT how i use Shadowstep

say a warrior is comming your way, i start shooting then he jumps/spins/bullcharges at me, shadowstep away, keep shooting, again he jumps/spins/charges, shadowreturn, keep shooting, win

thats only 1 scenario, i also use it to position myself behind the enemy only to mess with their cameras, twice

or u can just use it to travel 1200 units in a second

can’t do all that with RFI (also i clean movement conditions with Withdraw)

I’m using 3 sets working with my build right now and mostly playing WvW. d/d – sb – p/p. The question decent or bad is wrong. They both have good uses but they may quickly become inadequate depending on the enemy and the situation.

p/p: single target range sustained dmg with good defensive cc capability(can be used to burst with quickness). Low survivalibty when focused. Best for preventing enemy burst and finishing low hp targets. I generally use it in mass group fights to dmg/finish of targets from safe range. blind is the core of this set. Also contains an interrupt skill which is handy if you can read enemy.

d/d: High single target close range burst. Weak to aoe and crowd control. High survival chance when struck. Using this when roaming around solo or in small groups. This is my dueling set.

sb: Decent range dmg with high sustained range aoe dmg capability. Best for mass aoe dmg. Spammable emergency evade button with teleport. Brings high mobility. I’m using this in all my builds as a secondary weapon. let me run away, let me aoe efficiently, let me get away from roots. Includes all secondary skills that i need.

Bassman.9245:

really? that is so NOT how i use Shadowstep

say a warrior is comming your way, i start shooting then he jumps/spins/bullcharges at me, shadowstep away, keep shooting, again he jumps/spins/charges, shadowreturn, keep shooting, win

thats only 1 scenario, i also use it to position myself behind the enemy only to mess with their cameras, twice

or u can just use it to travel 1200 units in a second

can’t do all that with RFI (also i clean movement conditions with Withdraw)

Another advantage: I can run “hide in shadows”, which allows for easy repositioning and escaping/initiating.

Same scenario as you: Warrior bullcharges > Roll for Initiative > Warrior is now dead. Why? Bullcharge is spent, I broke the stun, I’m still shooting at him non-stop, and I just gave myself an extra 6 initiative which, together with my build’s natural regen, will allow for an extra 2 dazes or daze and unload.

Don’t get me wrong, Shadowstep is a phenomenal skill by its own right, but so is RfI, with very specific pros and cons for very specific builds.

ProxyDamage.9826:

Another advantage: I can run “hide in shadows”, which allows for easy repositioning and escaping/initiating.

Same scenario as you: Warrior bullcharges > Roll for Initiative > Warrior is now dead. Why? Bullcharge is spent, I broke the stun, I’m still shooting at him non-stop, and I just gave myself an extra 6 initiative which, together with my build’s natural regen, will allow for an extra 2 dazes or daze and unload.

Don’t get me wrong, Shadowstep is a phenomenal skill by its own right, but so is RfI, with very specific pros and cons for very specific builds.

funny how u blow away your healing skill for initiating and still have the balls to call me a bad “copy paste” thief, oh the irony…

Bassman.9245:

funny how u blow away your healing skill for initiating and still have the balls to call me a bad “copy paste” thief, oh the irony…

Situational young padawan.

Since my last post in the thread I’ve been running p/p with s/d swap in spvp and it’s actually pretty good. I’m usually top score on my team, often the game as a whole. I don’t feel as strong as I do on my ele, but this is essentially my first time playing a thief, so I just don’t have the experience to really dominate. But it’s strong and has a lot of potential. I think once I master the general thief play this build will be on par with any other thief build.

dreztina.4820:

Since my last post in the thread I’ve been running p/p with s/d swap in spvp and it’s actually pretty good. I’m usually top score on my team, often the game as a whole. I don’t feel as strong as I do on my ele, but this is essentially my first time playing a thief, so I just don’t have the experience to really dominate. But it’s strong and has a lot of potential. I think once I master the general thief play this build will be on par with any other thief build.

Glad you’re enjoying it. P/P has a different tempo to it, especially if you’re speccing evasion over stealth. But once you get into the swing of it, it’s a really tough build to take down.

The entire reason I made a thief as my first char at release was because I had the image of them with two pistols and then slotting group aiding utilities, ie nothing like how the thief actually turned out

PP is doable and can put out some nice damage, but I keep going away from it as after a while it becomes a pretty boring playstyle for me. P/P just doesnt… meld well, its a confused weapon set I think. It feels a little bit forced for me. But every so often I’ll change my build and play this way for a change, but it sadly doesnt hold my attention for as long as id like it to

P/P for PvE with Vampiric Runes and max Crit Strikes (Pistol Mastery & Executioner a must).

Then just pew pew away.

That’s just the backbone of the build and you can freely optimize it to your heart’s content.

Disturbed.9305:

I personally was more interested in the viability of a p/p in pve only, not sure what the OP wanted to know.

It seems the whole theif catagory everyone is mainly interested in PVP. I don’t PVP I do use p/p in PVE. Here are my observations as someone who likes p/p pve..

Stealth is pretty much non existant with the build. Running and dodging are key. Even when i use mug, the stealth often times misses.

The key to p/p is to have high percision, power and condition damage. (pistols rely on both to do damage) If you max one of the traits let it be trickery. some well placed traps (and high condition damage) will often take half of the monsters health. plus the cripple prolongs your life as they can’t reach you as fast. 2 unloads after a trap = death. Against magic users forget unload and daze/ confuse them every few shots.

Using scorpion wire to pull an enemy (especially into your traps) is a great way to get it dead fast, while not over aggroing.

My complaints with p/p:

A) you are weak against condition damage.

B) You can’t really max the traits. None of my traits are higher than 25. As I mentioned before, you need power, percision and condition damage to be effective. However, in truth, I think all classes struggle with the traits a little.

C) I don’t think you are tanky enough to switch between daggers and p/p lacking the toughness trait so its all or nothing as far as going ranged. I like a shortbow as it gives you even more range for boss fights.

*edited for grammar and some content.

PvE…it’s decent~good. Good for single target ranged DPS (lots of bosses, and fractals).

WvW…it’s decent. Only bad players will encounter some trouble, if any, while dealing with it.

sPvP…it’s garbage. Only REALLY terrible players will have trouble dealing with it. Playing this in sPvP is like setting a handicap for yourself.

It is also a VERY mind numbing playstyle, no matter how “cool” it may look.

Anyone saying otherwise is either a troll, plays a different class than thief and holds hatred towards thieves, or delusional.

dreztina.4820:

Since my last post in the thread I’ve been running p/p with s/d swap in spvp and it’s actually pretty good. I’m usually top score on my team, often the game as a whole. I don’t feel as strong as I do on my ele, but this is essentially my first time playing a thief, so I just don’t have the experience to really dominate. But it’s strong and has a lot of potential. I think once I master the general thief play this build will be on par with any other thief build.

Hey mate, well I’ve literally played thousands of spvp games and this is what I roll with.. Use sd as ur main, switch to pp when u have fury up, use battle sigil, and pew pew them dead as they usually have no dodges left. Also a shadow refuge sneak attack unload combo is an absolute game changer…

@kurow add me and let’s duel spvp, u will see how stupid your post is

edit: prob need to clarify, PP is my secondary weapon set instead of SB, and i switch to it to finish off players who are at or below 50%… PP as a main weapon set is a completely different story, and i dont suggest doing that. PP is really good in spvp as secondary if your bored of SB.. stepping out of melee range, while in stealth, switching to pp, then sneak attack and unload surprises alot of ppl

Guys – please record your duels. I don’t doubt you’ve nailed a rythm that works for you but I just destroy P/P thieves too easily. I carry P/P on secondary set at the moment because I got bored with SB but I use it for assisting down targets and have access to 3 forms of haste to make unload work well enough for me… not tried to fight with them as mains.

bomber.1540:

@kurow add me and let’s duel spvp, u will see how stupid your post is

edit: prob need to clarify, PP is my secondary weapon set instead of SB, and i switch to it to finish off players who are at or below 50%… PP as a main weapon set is a completely different story, and i dont suggest doing that. PP is really good in spvp as secondary if your bored of SB.. stepping out of melee range, while in stealth, switching to pp, then sneak attack and unload surprises alot of ppl

Good to see you agreeing with me, while making yourself look like a tool all in one post.

Kurow.6973:

bomber.1540:

@kurow add me and let’s duel spvp, u will see how stupid your post is

edit: prob need to clarify, PP is my secondary weapon set instead of SB, and i switch to it to finish off players who are at or below 50%… PP as a main weapon set is a completely different story, and i dont suggest doing that. PP is really good in spvp as secondary if your bored of SB.. stepping out of melee range, while in stealth, switching to pp, then sneak attack and unload surprises alot of ppl

Good to see you agreeing with me, while making yourself look like a tool all in one post.

hu?

your post said… “sPvP…it’s garbage. Only REALLY terrible players will have trouble dealing with it. Playing this in sPvP is like setting a handicap for yourself.”

and my post is clearly saying how great PP is in spvp , completely disagreeing with you… yes i use it as a secondary set, but i still use it ..does that mean im handicapping myself, or i can only beat really terrible players,? i dont think so mate

It’s not as bad as people say. I played P/P a lot at release, in probably around 400 or so sPvP games. Yes, it has some issues, but no it isn’t horrible. My favorite build for P/P is the build I created myself back in early release. 25/30/0/15/0, I tried a lot of variations and always came back to that build.

I agree that the weapon set is a little initiative starved, personally I have been testing a lot of different builds for the same sets (D/P with P/P secondary) and I am not sure what I like best yet. Currently I am using a pretty glassy build but I have been going back and forth a lot. My specs are a little offbeat and made to fit my needs generally. I like to feel more like an Assassin and less like a light tank.

My specs are generally higher in Shadow Arts and Acrobatics and max Critical Strikes. I am currently experimenting with a more glass cannon type of build with 25 30 0 15 0. Main problem of course is I don’t have as much initiative regen as my other builds. The 15 in acrobatics is for the swiftness on dodge (so I don’t feel like I need Signet of Shadows) as well as vigor on heal for more survivability via dodges and the endurance return on dodge. As you can tell, it relies heavily on dodging and burst. It has been moderately successful so far. I use Hide is Shadows, Shadowstep, and Shadow Refuge. On the last utility skill I have been switching it around a lot depending on what I felt I needed. A lot of times I have been using Ambush Trap, but have also switched it up to Blinding Powder, Shadow Trap, and Roll for Initiative at times. My elite is exclusively Thieves Guild. I almost always include Shadowstep and Shadow Refuge in my builds, they are just too good to pass up imo. I also detest venom builds, I find them very boring. No denying they are strong though.

Above quote is a post of mine from 5 months ago. The information still holds true for the most part as far as P/P is concerned.

The answer to your question is “mediocre”.

The main problem with MH Pistol is two fold: Vital Shot not firing rapidly enough and Body Shot being far too situational. You are left with only one adequate skill – Unload, and it is only just adequate.

Truthfully, the only reason P/P even feels halfway decent at all is because the Thief’s mechanics allow you to concentrate almost solely on Unload Intiative dumps and therefore avoid much reliance on the comparitively useless #1 and #2 skills while supporting the set with cheese skills like Caltrops that help dramatically improve your general offensive output. If it wasn’t for that, it would be downright terrible.

Overall, its offensive is roughly on par, if not slightly inferior, to the Rifle warrior while having weaker utility and shorter range (and with Thieves being defensively much weaker). It may not be god-awful, but it definitely needs more help than it’s been getting.

A screenshot from last night: http://i.imgur.com/eMW5taK.jpg

This is just an obviously unbalanced hotjoin, and not something that happens every game by any means, but the build is definitely good. I’m not saying it’s going to be the next high level tpvp fotm and everyone should start running it immediately, but to say it’s not viable or even bad is just silly. Just because something isn’t the strongest possible doesn’t mean it’s trash.

Its pretty bad.

I use it in combo with D/D, and it works pretty well in WvW. It’s a great counter against P/D thieves because unload tracks them through stealth, and against other melees, it’s nice too. I mix it in with my D/D routine and use it depending on the situation.

dreztina.4820:

A screenshot from last night: http://i.imgur.com/eMW5taK.jpg

This is just an obviously unbalanced hotjoin, and not something that happens every game by any means, but the build is definitely good. I’m not saying it’s going to be the next high level tpvp fotm and everyone should start running it immediately, but to say it’s not viable or even bad is just silly. Just because something isn’t the strongest possible doesn’t mean it’s trash.

HAHA I love /whisper you got WIN!

I have been trying to get something interesting out of these guns now for a night or two and still not working well enough for me. Keeping them as secondary though as I can drop 20 stacks of invulnerability on someone before I go banzai with daggers on them.

For WvW/PvE I like P/P and D/D with SB on standby for sieging. It is not that P/P is bad, but the other combos are prolly more effective. However, I was never a CnD guy, but I do use daggers to finish what the pistols started usually.

I do not have a problem with stealth in this build or taking hits. I also run with ogre runes. The dog is a nice distraction, and when the thugs (thieves guild) get involved it’s a party. For me the build needed 1500 toughness, 15k health, and 2k+ power, and 50% crit chance, and I was able to get with below setup:

http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/thief/?7.1|a.1g.h14.a.1g.h4|8.1g.h14.8.1g.h2|1c.7b.1c.7b.1c.7b.1g.7b.1g.7b.1c.7b|411.d1g.211.e13.311.e17.211.e13.311.e17.1c.67|k3a.u57b.k14.0.0|39.7|57.5a.5b.5h.0|e

For WvW the 20 points in SA really help with the 20% stealth timer reduction and condition removal. With the three stealths loaded ( BP, HiS, and SR) there is enough to get out of a jam or rez a teammate. This works for me and it is fun, and that’s the bottom line anyways.

P/P has always perplexed me because it’s just so disjointed.

1. synergizes perfectly with a condition build and dagger offhand, but it’s practically worthless for P/P builds.
2. is almost exclusively relegated to group events because of the moderate initiative cost and short condition duration.
3. is fantastic; pretty much the entire reason to use P/P.
4. is great utility, but I can’t help feeling it would be sooo much better for P/P as a cripple than an interrupt.
5. is a melee range AoE blind for a weapon set that has virtually no AoE potential and prefers to stay out of melee range.

Ricochet can give you a tiny bit of multi-target potential, but it’s in the Trickery tree that gives you condition damage (which you won’t be building for) and buffs to stealing which puts you in melee range (again, we don’t want that as P/P).

I know you can make it work because unload is pretty strong, but it just feels too specialized. AoE potential is virtually non-existent, there’s no way to stealth, there’s no cripple, and trait builds for it always end up hap-hazard.

Every time I try to put together a P/P build I just can’t help thinking about how much better it could be with just a couple Anet tweaks.

Sifu.6527:

danbuter.2314:

I like the pistol/pistol thief from the rp and animations aspect, but it seems that it won’t hold up compared to other builds. Is there a recommended build for p/p?

Are there certain skills that really help it out?
thanks

P/P is awesome in duels.

It beats P/D, S/D, S/P, SB, D/D, etc you name it.

But WvW isn’t about duel and you really need a weapon set that allows you to be flexible. P/P isn’t that.

If I have Sword/Dagger against your P/P, you are dead. You have no escapes and I’ve got a gap closer/snare and a spammable slow. My DPS is also much higher and I can circle you easily.

Rhysati.4932:

If I have Sword/Dagger against your P/P, you are dead. You have no escapes and I’ve got a gap closer/snare and a spammable slow. My DPS is also much higher and I can circle you easily.

Before anything else: I’m asking this as a serious question / situation, not as a snarky “nope you’re wrong” reply.

The P/P thief uses black powder immediately after you use infiltrator’s strike. What do you do?

I’ve found P/P useful for ranged single target damage…I just can’t find a good enough build to go with it.

With that in mind, perhaps it’s best for dungeon bosses?

Softspoken.2410:

Rhysati.4932:

If I have Sword/Dagger against your P/P, you are dead. You have no escapes and I’ve got a gap closer/snare and a spammable slow. My DPS is also much higher and I can circle you easily.

Before anything else: I’m asking this as a serious question / situation, not as a snarky “nope you’re wrong” reply.

The P/P thief uses black powder immediately after you use infiltrator’s strike. What do you do?

Black Powder applies 1 blind/sec, if he uses Pistol Whip which is 9 hits in 3/4 sec. I don’t see how Black Powder helps P/P in a situation like that. Even with Withdraw and RfI, i don’t really see how long Mr. P/P can hold on.

Bunmaster.9734:

Softspoken.2410:

Rhysati.4932:

If I have Sword/Dagger against your P/P, you are dead. You have no escapes and I’ve got a gap closer/snare and a spammable slow. My DPS is also much higher and I can circle you easily.

Before anything else: I’m asking this as a serious question / situation, not as a snarky “nope you’re wrong” reply.

The P/P thief uses black powder immediately after you use infiltrator’s strike. What do you do?

Black Powder applies 1 blind/sec, if he uses Pistol Whip which is 9 hits in 3/4 sec. I don’t see how Black Powder helps P/P in a situation like that. Even with Withdraw and RfI, i don’t really see how long Mr. P/P can hold on.

Well, the situation was introduced as a S/D thief, not a S/P, so pistol whip wasn’t really an option. That said, Pistol Whip would definitely be a problem. You’d have to burn a utility to get out of it, or just tank the damage since they evade for the duration.