Guild Wars 2

Maugetarr.6823:

But I’m going to disagree with you and say that unload is broken. All the sustained damage comes from unload which ia an initiative hog. My suggested changes move the sustained damage to the autos and put the utility back into the reat of the set. P/P will still retain it’s burst DPS on unload, but won’t be dependant on the skill just to maintain DPS. Keep in mind unload saw a significant DPS boost when its channel was reduced from an overall 2.35 second cast time to a 1.75 second cast time. That was a 35% DPS boost to the skill which still left P/P in the same situation. A flat buff to damage across the board isn’t going to change how you use the set mechanically. Also, i would like to point out that body shot is only useless because it takes away from the initiative needed to maintain the sustained damage from Unload. It makes no mathematical sense to spend it on body shot because it will lower your DPS overall. Moving the sustained damage to the autoattack would allow you to use body shot in a way that makes sense because it wouldn’t lower the frequency of your damaging attacks. Sure body shot could use a mechanical change too which is why I think boon hate would be good for it, but mobility wouldn’t be bad either.

As for proc chance, in the same time frame as you have 8 shots right now from unload, you would have 5 total from unload and 1 auto. The difference between the proc chances is actually very small. Not to mention that you would have the initiative to spend on 100% projectile finishers.

As an aside, 3 spam right now on P/P is your autoattack for the set; it just costs initiative so you don’t have initiative left for anything else on the set. Saying that P/P will become tedious because it’s sustained damage will come from 1 instead of 3 is the wrong way to look at it. P/P is already tedious mechanically. If it weren’t for the cool looking animation, it would be much more apparent.

What P/P needs is to not have its sustained damage attached to initiative, but autos like the other successful sets. The other skills need to have utility in them or burst damage. P4&5 are un a good position. Unload essentially needs to be moved to the 1 position in functiin since it’s providing the sustained DPS for the set while P2&3 need to be given situationally useful utility (condi clears, boon hate, evades, mobility, whatever). Unload fights the thief design right now because it is the substitute for a poor autoattack.

Just going to break the quote wall a bit, but anyway… You forgot to consider the management of initiative which is necessary when most/all of the damage is NOT coming from the AA’s, but from Unloads instead, the utiliziation of Haste to its maximum effect, initiative pooling etc. When you shift the primary source of damage from Unload to AA, you dumb down the spec insanely much. Sure, it will “free” the initiative to use elsewhere, but why would you use ANY initiative at all since you would LOSE damage by doing so, not gain, as you need to remember that unspent initiative acts as a damage modifier. Full initiative counts as a flat 15% damage modifier, which is too good to pass up, especially if most/all of our damage would come from AA’s which do not cost any initiative at all.

Shimekiri.1580:

Maugetarr.6823:

But I’m going to disagree with you and say that unload is broken. All the sustained damage comes from unload which ia an initiative hog. My suggested changes move the sustained damage to the autos and put the utility back into the reat of the set. P/P will still retain it’s burst DPS on unload, but won’t be dependant on the skill just to maintain DPS. Keep in mind unload saw a significant DPS boost when its channel was reduced from an overall 2.35 second cast time to a 1.75 second cast time. That was a 35% DPS boost to the skill which still left P/P in the same situation. A flat buff to damage across the board isn’t going to change how you use the set mechanically. Also, i would like to point out that body shot is only useless because it takes away from the initiative needed to maintain the sustained damage from Unload. It makes no mathematical sense to spend it on body shot because it will lower your DPS overall. Moving the sustained damage to the autoattack would allow you to use body shot in a way that makes sense because it wouldn’t lower the frequency of your damaging attacks. Sure body shot could use a mechanical change too which is why I think boon hate would be good for it, but mobility wouldn’t be bad either.

As for proc chance, in the same time frame as you have 8 shots right now from unload, you would have 5 total from unload and 1 auto. The difference between the proc chances is actually very small. Not to mention that you would have the initiative to spend on 100% projectile finishers.

As an aside, 3 spam right now on P/P is your autoattack for the set; it just costs initiative so you don’t have initiative left for anything else on the set. Saying that P/P will become tedious because it’s sustained damage will come from 1 instead of 3 is the wrong way to look at it. P/P is already tedious mechanically. If it weren’t for the cool looking animation, it would be much more apparent.

What P/P needs is to not have its sustained damage attached to initiative, but autos like the other successful sets. The other skills need to have utility in them or burst damage. P4&5 are un a good position. Unload essentially needs to be moved to the 1 position in functiin since it’s providing the sustained DPS for the set while P2&3 need to be given situationally useful utility (condi clears, boon hate, evades, mobility, whatever). Unload fights the thief design right now because it is the substitute for a poor autoattack.

Just going to break the quote wall a bit, but anyway… You forgot to consider the management of initiative which is necessary when most/all of the damage is NOT coming from the AA’s, but from Unloads instead, the utiliziation of Haste to its maximum effect, initiative pooling etc. When you shift the primary source of damage from Unload to AA, you dumb down the spec insanely much. Sure, it will “free” the initiative to use elsewhere, but why would you use ANY initiative at all since you would LOSE damage by doing so, not gain, as you need to remember that unspent initiative acts as a damage modifier. Full initiative counts as a flat 15% damage modifier, which is too good to pass up, especially if most/all of our damage would come from AA’s which do not cost any initiative at all.

I’m going to disagree with you on this point. The changes I made are specifically to allow better initiative management by moving the values around. Lets look at S/D for comparison since it has an evade built into the set. The Autoattack chain is the biggest source of sustained damage. Larcenous strike has a decent chunk on it too sitting at a 1.5 multiplier. You wouldn’t say that S/D lacks proper initiative management simply because the sustained damage comes from autos, but rather it frees up initiative for the proper use of the skills on the set. Right now the spec is dumb because it competes with proper management. That’s why you rarely see serious use in PvP. The proper design should be like SB which allows you to use the skills as needed. Since the set would still lack the escape options that SB has, it should be a strong in-combat, single target contender for the spot. That means increasing the damage output and utility by fixing 1, 2, and 3. Adding sustain by making a half second evade that still has a 1.2 overall multipler would help the skill cap, not hurt it.

As to your point on why you would use any skill on the set because of the loss from Lead Attacks… if that’s your stance on it, why would you use any skills except autos on any set? You would because the situation calls for it. Right now P/P only worries about damage output and sinks all of it into 3. If it’s not, then DPS is extremely poor on it. The goal is to bring P/P up to the levels of the other sets in terms of strength and utility. Deviating from 3 spam will not dumb down the set.

Ausfer.1853:

20% damage is a start but the conditions are still mediocre, and there’s still no survivibility, and there’s still no way to hit multiple targets …. this change is missing the point of why players don’t like p/p.

This.

Unload is good. but even if it did 20% more damage we still have no way to remain mobile with that damage.

Is it difficult to change -several- skills if you equip two pistols, instead of just the middle skill?

Once again, our problem is not that we cannot instagib hard enough. It is that we have no way to be “thiefy” vs. other classes with the majority of our builds. We suffer shutdowns with extreme prejudice, and even if we see them coming with many builds there is very little we can do.

If we can push to avoiding a sizeable amount of damage with skillful play, that’s enough.

I’m even willing to give up ricochet for that.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Ausfer.1853:

20% damage is a start but the conditions are still mediocre, and there’s still no survivibility, and there’s still no way to hit multiple targets …. this change is missing the point of why players don’t like p/p.

This.

Unload is good. but even if it did 20% more damage we still have no way to remain mobile with that damage.

Is it difficult to change -several- skills if you equip two pistols, instead of just the middle skill?

Once again, our problem is not that we cannot instagib hard enough. It is that we have no way to be “thiefy” vs. other classes with the majority of our builds. We suffer shutdowns with extreme prejudice, and even if we see them coming with many builds there is very little we can do.

If we can push to avoiding a sizeable amount of damage with skillful play, that’s enough.

I’m even willing to give up ricochet for that.

Well, as you said, you cant really change P4&5 because they are performing well. You could change 1, 2, and 3 sice they’re underwhelming on both sets, which is why I think a change to where the damage comes feom on the sets and the utility of 2 and 3 would be the best courae of action. P/P should be a strong midrange weapon because it lacks the mobility of SB.

They said +x damage; x >= 20%; so Unload could get at least 20% or more so here’s a chance to figure out what percentage of increase would make unload worth the INI cost.

Maugetarr.6823:

I’m going to disagree with you on this point. The changes I made are specifically to allow better initiative management by moving the values around. Lets look at S/D for comparison since it has an evade built into the set. The Autoattack chain is the biggest source of sustained damage. Larcenous strike has a decent chunk on it too sitting at a 1.5 multiplier. You wouldn’t say that S/D lacks proper initiative management simply because the sustained damage comes from autos, but rather it frees up initiative for the proper use of the skills on the set. Right now the spec is dumb because it competes with proper management. That’s why you rarely see serious use in PvP. The proper design should be like SB which allows you to use the skills as needed. Since the set would still lack the escape options that SB has, it should be a strong in-combat, single target contender for the spot. That means increasing the damage output and utility by fixing 1, 2, and 3. Adding sustain by making a half second evade that still has a 1.2 overall multipler would help the skill cap, not hurt it.

As to your point on why you would use any skill on the set because of the loss from Lead Attacks… if that’s your stance on it, why would you use any skills except autos on any set? You would because the situation calls for it. Right now P/P only worries about damage output and sinks all of it into 3. If it’s not, then DPS is extremely poor on it. The goal is to bring P/P up to the levels of the other sets in terms of strength and utility. Deviating from 3 spam will not dumb down the set.

Guess we simply believe in different models of skill and playstyle design. I personally believe that there needs to be interaction with the primary source of DPS, not only utility. I’ll just counter your first argument about my point with the Lead Attacks. You would ALWAYS use higher damage multiplier attacks and/or attacks with other large benefits over the AA, but only to the point where the loss of initiative and the multiplier/benefits provided by it, won’t lead to a sustained DPS loss.(In most cases for P/P, 1-2 Unloads and then pool back initiative.) You also seem to favour using other weapon sets as example, which function completely differently from how P/P works. P/P and S/P provide BURST dps, which f.ex. S/D and SB do not have. It’s a different form of pressure, outside of the utilities/harassment S/D, from your example, does and provides. Different skill sets have different playstyles and you seem to want to turn P/P into a ranged version of S/D, which is fine for you, if you like that playstyle, but not fine for any of us, who are accustomed to initiative management in the DPS sense of things and having on-demand burst DPS capability.

And, this being just my personal opinion, the skillcap and need for predicting things is also higher, when you need to decide between dealing medium-to-high damage or switching to utility/support, instead of always dealing medium-to-high damage and having free on-demand utility/support. Its a handicap if you’re bad at it, but works fine, if you’re able to follow what happens around you so you can predict what’s going to happen next.

Vital Shot: Increased damage by 24%.
Unload: Increased damage per shot by 26%.
Sneak Attack: Increased attack damage per shot by 25%.
But
Ankle Shots: Removed the hidden range increase that this trait unlocked. :/