Guild Wars 2

It’s a start, and a good one.

Hahahahahaha.

No.

What do you want? 50%?

The point is that if this 20% damage buff is indicative of the rest of (if any) of the buffs, then the devs have the missed the point.

P/P is not a viable weaponset in any shape or form for PvP or WvW because it is effectively a 1 skill weaponset. You spam #3 for okish damage. There is zero survivability. If you want to do ranged damage in PvE, you may as well reroll ranger or ele – both are much better at it than thief.

Gallant Pigeon.5807:

The point is that if this 20% damage buff is indicative of the rest of (if any) of the buffs, then the devs have the missed the point.

P/P is not a viable weaponset in any shape or form for PvP or WvW because it is effectively a 1 skill weaponset. You spam #3 for okish damage. There is zero survivability. If you want to do ranged damage in PvE, you may as well reroll ranger or ele – both are much better at it than thief.

I would 2nd this. I only use duel pistols in PvE spamming #3 to get my health regen. Once regen-ed is it is back to weapon Set #1. The auto bleed attack is worthless. Headshot is nice if it didn’t consume so much initiative and Body shot’s armor reduction is super $$ for the cast time/3s vul debuff. You are lucky to get off one unload during this time. Also there are so many bugs in relation to this weapon set. Every time I am in the waste I have to keep re-targeting a mob just to get it to “hit” Body shot doesn’t work well on the chargers if the shots never register.

I don’t play a class because it is superior, I play it because it is fun. I agree its not optimal yet, but if we want optimal for wvw we’d all play stealth Mesmer.

Also, I’d lean towards it being two skills. #5 has its advantages.

So our thoughts are:

Increase the auto bleed on 1?
Lower the initiative on 2-5?

Increase the damage and bleed length on autoattack (0.7 multiplier, 8 second bleed). Cut the number of shots and initiative on unload in half while giving it a backward roll, matrix-style.

The main damage should come from autos. Autos could do increased damage to foes with vulnerability also. Unload needs utility to put the set on the board like every other competitive set. There are so many tweaks that are mechanically different than “moar damage,” which is probably going to get nerfed anyway.

This is a joke, pistal’s damage. 0+0*0.2=0 LOL

DresdenAllblack.1249:

So our thoughts are:

Increase the auto bleed on 1?
Lower the initiative on 2-5?

What pistols would benefit from isn’t really a power buff, but something more like :

- 1050 range baseline
- some way to get back the aoe the ricochet once provided.

I personally used the pistol for the CC (#2 with ricochet was a nice way to breath when in a tight spot)

I like all the balance changes previewed. I asked for several of those in feedback posts myself. Here’s hoping poison is good without having to use venom share to hit 20 stacks now. With the Healing meta possibly on the horizon thanks to Druid, Ventari, etc, poison may be a lot more important in HoT than it has been.

So, as far as i understand, unload will do more dmg, maybe AA. The rest like body shot, head shot and blinding powder still will do non existent dmg (so 300ish lol). I don’t see how this 20% changed ANYTHING for pp nor adressed any issues thieves have generally……
Yeah the dmg increase is welcome but really it won’t solve anything. It is utility/survival/way to deal with miriad passives is what thief lacks atm. I know THAT is actually hard to implement but why even bother wasting recources on numbers change that won’t do anything? You are not gonna be able to run with chopped off legs just because your wheelchair is tiny bit faster now.

Just going to quote myself from: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Balance-Patch-Notes-confirmed/page/2

….
TL;DR, P/P is a pure DPS set. It offers no mobility or survivability when compared to the other alternatives, it deals less damage than the alternatives and it has worse utility than the alternatives. Either the damage needs to be buffed, a lot more than what’s already coming, so it’s at the level it needs to be in, to counter these quite severe disadvantages, or the damage is buffed to be atleast on par, while Body Shot and Vital Shot will be fully reworked. Preferably keep the damage of Vital Shot where it is going to be after this upcoming buff, but reduce the cast from 1/2s to 1/4s and then change the Body Shot to some kind of low-cost/no-cost(With a short CD. 10s?) disengage type skill, which will allow us to open a gap on a target getting too close for comfort, which could also still apply the short immobilize effect(Which could/should be buffed to 2s duration.), which would strengthen the gap opener capability of it. After just these small changes, all we’d need is a little love in the AoE department via a pierce effect f.ex. and the skillset would be pretty much fixed.

I’d also like to state that Unload as a skill is fine, the mechanics are fine, but the damage still needs a little help, possibly more than what’s coming up/has been promised, depending on what’s going to happen with Vital Shot, but we’ll see once the patch and the changes hit live, along with all of the other upcoming changes. Aside from these, what P/P needs the most is just some AoE capability and a piercing mechanic would be ideal, since bounce seems to be out of the question due to its “randomness”. You can aim where your shots will hit after piercing a target just fine so the reason the bounce was removed isn’t exactly valid for a pierce effect.

A pistol is used for stealth and daze access, not damage so who cares outside P/P which is just for lols anyway.

Ricochet is what made P/P fun and worth running. Put that either as a trait or change Unload so that it has it built in. I would add that the #1 attack should probably be revamped. I actually like Body Shot but the immobilize should be a bit stronger.

An oddity in this game as a whole is that the Staff has better range than either the Shortbow (Ranger included) or the Pistol for most classes. It makes no logical sense and lessons these weapon sets tremendously.

fireflyry.7023:

A pistol is used for stealth and daze access, not damage so who cares outside P/P which is just for lols anyway.

People who enjoy the playstyle of the weapon-set care. Judging by the sheer quantity of the posts on the subject of P/P on this forum, that’s a whole lot of people.

DresdenAllblack.1249:

What do you want? 50%?

500%. Then it will be useful, well, kind of. I mean, if we’re only bargaining for damage increases…

I want ricochet. P/P used to be great for tagging and healing. Now it’s meh single target pew pew.

20% damage doesn’t even begin to make up for gutting pistol mastery to only work on crippled enemies or the loss of ricochet, nor does it touch any of the inherent flaws of the p/p weapon set. It’s not a good start because it’s barely even a start at all.

James Quall.6029:

20% damage doesn’t even begin to make up for gutting pistol mastery to only work on crippled enemies or the loss of ricochet, nor does it touch any of the inherent flaws of the p/p weapon set. It’s not a good start because it’s barely even a start at all.

I do not know abut your math. Pistol mastery was 10 percent more damage and not 20 added. More importantly one could not trait both IP and executioner.

Against a crippled enemy who is under 50 percent health Pistol can now do 10+10+20+20 damage using just two trait lines AND heal as they do so with Crit damage well over 200 percent. Added to this in the revamp all dual skills were made baseline meaning unload gained another 5 percent. (In other words the loss of pistol mastery was NOT 10 percent but 5 percent when using unload)

Pistol mastery also limited ones other choices such as practiced tolerance or the old skill that gave fury when enemies health dropped. We can now have almost perma fury without having to use runes that grant it or traiting thrill of the crime.

Single target damage is much higher.

babazhook.6805:

James Quall.6029:

20% damage doesn’t even begin to make up for gutting pistol mastery to only work on crippled enemies or the loss of ricochet, nor does it touch any of the inherent flaws of the p/p weapon set. It’s not a good start because it’s barely even a start at all.

I do not know abut your math. Pistol mastery was 10 percent more damage and not 20 added. More importantly one could not trait both IP and executioner.

Against a crippled enemy who is under 50 percent health Pistol can now do 10+10+20+20 damage using just two trait lines AND heal as they do so with Crit damage well over 200 percent. Added to this in the revamp all dual skills were made baseline meaning unload gained another 5 percent. (In other words the loss of pistol mastery was NOT 10 percent but 5 percent when using unload)

Pistol mastery also limited ones other choices such as practiced tolerance or the old skill that gave fury when enemies health dropped. We can now have almost perma fury without having to use runes that grant it or traiting thrill of the crime.

Single target damage is much higher.

Other classes and d/p got stronger too just damage increase won’t do much.

Sagat.3285:

babazhook.6805:

James Quall.6029:

20% damage doesn’t even begin to make up for gutting pistol mastery to only work on crippled enemies or the loss of ricochet, nor does it touch any of the inherent flaws of the p/p weapon set. It’s not a good start because it’s barely even a start at all.

I do not know abut your math. Pistol mastery was 10 percent more damage and not 20 added. More importantly one could not trait both IP and executioner.

Against a crippled enemy who is under 50 percent health Pistol can now do 10+10+20+20 damage using just two trait lines AND heal as they do so with Crit damage well over 200 percent. Added to this in the revamp all dual skills were made baseline meaning unload gained another 5 percent. (In other words the loss of pistol mastery was NOT 10 percent but 5 percent when using unload)

Pistol mastery also limited ones other choices such as practiced tolerance or the old skill that gave fury when enemies health dropped. We can now have almost perma fury without having to use runes that grant it or traiting thrill of the crime.

Single target damage is much higher.

Other classes and d/p got stronger too just damage increase won’t do much.

People that use p/p struggle to boost the damage so as to maximize the used INI. This is why they use sigils of strength for might stacking and try to integrate more power into their build. To suggest 20 percent more power won’t to do much is nonsense. In essence it means to pump out the same amount of damage I use 20 percent less INI and in an Ini starved build that is significant.

Further to this 20 more percent damage pumped out means 20 percent more health coming in for the same amount of INI if using IP in the build. Again this significant.

The set still needs work on the number 2 skill for defense and utility along with 1/3 second per shot off the aa rather then 1/2 but 20 percent more damage is more significant then you suggest.

DresdenAllblack.1249:

So our thoughts are:

Increase the auto bleed on 1?
Lower the initiative on 2-5?

A 20 percent damage increase on unload is equal to a ini cost that is one less. I think 4 and 5 are fine. Decreasing InI an these boosts d/p which is fine.

Issue is 2 and the AA. On the AA all we need to do is have the time of the shot go from 1/2 to 1/3. This gives more damage to power and an extra bleed to condi AA.

2 is what needs to be focused on to make the set workable.

babazhook.6805:

Sagat.3285:

babazhook.6805:

James Quall.6029:

20% damage doesn’t even begin to make up for gutting pistol mastery to only work on crippled enemies or the loss of ricochet, nor does it touch any of the inherent flaws of the p/p weapon set. It’s not a good start because it’s barely even a start at all.

I do not know abut your math. Pistol mastery was 10 percent more damage and not 20 added. More importantly one could not trait both IP and executioner.

Against a crippled enemy who is under 50 percent health Pistol can now do 10+10+20+20 damage using just two trait lines AND heal as they do so with Crit damage well over 200 percent. Added to this in the revamp all dual skills were made baseline meaning unload gained another 5 percent. (In other words the loss of pistol mastery was NOT 10 percent but 5 percent when using unload)

Pistol mastery also limited ones other choices such as practiced tolerance or the old skill that gave fury when enemies health dropped. We can now have almost perma fury without having to use runes that grant it or traiting thrill of the crime.

Single target damage is much higher.

Other classes and d/p got stronger too just damage increase won’t do much.

People that use p/p struggle to boost the damage so as to maximize the used INI. This is why they use sigils of strength for might stacking and try to integrate more power into their build. To suggest 20 percent more power won’t to do much is nonsense. In essence it means to pump out the same amount of damage I use 20 percent less INI and in an Ini starved build that is significant.

Further to this 20 more percent damage pumped out means 20 percent more health coming in for the same amount of INI if using IP in the build. Again this significant.

The set still needs work on the number 2 skill for defense and utility along with 1/3 second per shot off the aa rather then 1/2 but 20 percent more damage is more significant then you suggest.

I didn’t suggest anything in this thread but my main one for a long time was adding evade frames to Unload similar to Flanking Strike but you have control over direction. Just damage won’t do it unless you can down a semi-tank as soon as he is range of attack.

Sagat.3285:

babazhook.6805:

Sagat.3285:

babazhook.6805:

James Quall.6029:

20% damage doesn’t even begin to make up for gutting pistol mastery to only work on crippled enemies or the loss of ricochet, nor does it touch any of the inherent flaws of the p/p weapon set. It’s not a good start because it’s barely even a start at all.

I do not know abut your math. Pistol mastery was 10 percent more damage and not 20 added. More importantly one could not trait both IP and executioner.

Against a crippled enemy who is under 50 percent health Pistol can now do 10+10+20+20 damage using just two trait lines AND heal as they do so with Crit damage well over 200 percent. Added to this in the revamp all dual skills were made baseline meaning unload gained another 5 percent. (In other words the loss of pistol mastery was NOT 10 percent but 5 percent when using unload)

Pistol mastery also limited ones other choices such as practiced tolerance or the old skill that gave fury when enemies health dropped. We can now have almost perma fury without having to use runes that grant it or traiting thrill of the crime.

Single target damage is much higher.

Other classes and d/p got stronger too just damage increase won’t do much.

People that use p/p struggle to boost the damage so as to maximize the used INI. This is why they use sigils of strength for might stacking and try to integrate more power into their build. To suggest 20 percent more power won’t to do much is nonsense. In essence it means to pump out the same amount of damage I use 20 percent less INI and in an Ini starved build that is significant.

Further to this 20 more percent damage pumped out means 20 percent more health coming in for the same amount of INI if using IP in the build. Again this significant.

The set still needs work on the number 2 skill for defense and utility along with 1/3 second per shot off the aa rather then 1/2 but 20 percent more damage is more significant then you suggest.

I didn’t suggest anything in this thread but my main one for a long time was adding evade frames to Unload similar to Flanking Strike but you have control over direction. Just damage won’t do it unless you can down a semi-tank as soon as he is range of attack.

Well the issue than becomes why use anything but unload? I would rather see the evades go into Number 2. make it a 1 second evade with a directional withdraw that also breaks stun . It would still immob the opponent and have some sort of damage component.

Then move the vulnerability from 2 to unload. Unload will be about damage and 2 and 6 about the utility/survival.

We get that and I think pistol set assuming of course ricochet/pierce remains a no go. Those should be independent of the set in any case and if added go into traits.

babazhook.6805:

Sagat.3285:

babazhook.6805:

Sagat.3285:

babazhook.6805:

James Quall.6029:

20% damage doesn’t even begin to make up for gutting pistol mastery to only work on crippled enemies or the loss of ricochet, nor does it touch any of the inherent flaws of the p/p weapon set. It’s not a good start because it’s barely even a start at all.

I do not know abut your math. Pistol mastery was 10 percent more damage and not 20 added. More importantly one could not trait both IP and executioner.

Against a crippled enemy who is under 50 percent health Pistol can now do 10+10+20+20 damage using just two trait lines AND heal as they do so with Crit damage well over 200 percent. Added to this in the revamp all dual skills were made baseline meaning unload gained another 5 percent. (In other words the loss of pistol mastery was NOT 10 percent but 5 percent when using unload)

Pistol mastery also limited ones other choices such as practiced tolerance or the old skill that gave fury when enemies health dropped. We can now have almost perma fury without having to use runes that grant it or traiting thrill of the crime.

Single target damage is much higher.

Other classes and d/p got stronger too just damage increase won’t do much.

People that use p/p struggle to boost the damage so as to maximize the used INI. This is why they use sigils of strength for might stacking and try to integrate more power into their build. To suggest 20 percent more power won’t to do much is nonsense. In essence it means to pump out the same amount of damage I use 20 percent less INI and in an Ini starved build that is significant.

Further to this 20 more percent damage pumped out means 20 percent more health coming in for the same amount of INI if using IP in the build. Again this significant.

The set still needs work on the number 2 skill for defense and utility along with 1/3 second per shot off the aa rather then 1/2 but 20 percent more damage is more significant then you suggest.

I didn’t suggest anything in this thread but my main one for a long time was adding evade frames to Unload similar to Flanking Strike but you have control over direction. Just damage won’t do it unless you can down a semi-tank as soon as he is range of attack.

Well the issue than becomes why use anything but unload? I would rather see the evades go into Number 2. make it a 1 second evade with a directional withdraw that also breaks stun . It would still immob the opponent and have some sort of damage component.

Then move the vulnerability from 2 to unload. Unload will be about damage and 2 and 6 about the utility/survival.

We get that and I think pistol set assuming of course ricochet/pierce remains a no go. Those should be independent of the set in any case and if added go into traits.

That’s a lot for #2 but your first point about Unload is a good one. I would prefer weakness and cripple on #2 but still get evade on#3, Vital Shot just need a lower casting time. I don’t think p/d needs evade but #2 is trash there I recommend weakness and cripple so p/p doesn’t fall short. Nothing is wrong with damage and some sustain on on 1 skill. They could move the vuln to Ankle Shots(rename it).

Edit: #2 become Ankle Shot and the trait becomes Body Shots. Please don’t make it 1 stack of vuln at least 3 for 10 sec 5 sec ICD

Cynz.9437:

So, as far as i understand, unload will do more dmg, maybe AA. The rest like body shot, head shot and blinding powder still will do non existent dmg (so 300ish lol). I don’t see how this 20% changed ANYTHING for pp nor adressed any issues thieves have generally……
Yeah the dmg increase is welcome but really it won’t solve anything. It is utility/survival/way to deal with miriad passives is what thief lacks atm. I know THAT is actually hard to implement but why even bother wasting recources on numbers change that won’t do anything? You are not gonna be able to run with chopped off legs just because your wheelchair is tiny bit faster now.

+1

One reason I would like to see vulnerability moved over to unload is that this would also help the P /p condition build. Use unload when enemy in a field to process those projectile finishers even as you stack on vulnerability so as to get all the conditions you have stacked via pressure strike and the bleeds from the AA ticking harder. If number two gets a fix such as an evade stunbreak you have a set where everything usable.

Auto could have its damage increased to a 0.75 multiplier since it’s single target damage at only 900 range.

Pistol 2 could have a boon strip with the vuln that would put the utility on par with SB.

Unload could have its shots cut in half if they’d give it a backwards roll (and buff auto). The whole skill could fire 4 shots over 0.75 seconds while giving a 0.5 second evade frame similar to shortbow.

Finally, put a piercing trait in for pistols. They need some way to compete with the multitarget capabilities of shortbow which far outclasses pistols in a teamfight.

Maugetarr.6823:

Auto could have its damage increased to a 0.75 multiplier since it’s single target damage at only 900 range.

Pistol 2 could have a boon strip with the vuln that would put the utility on par with SB.

Unload could have its shots cut in half if they’d give it a backwards roll (and buff auto). The whole skill could fire 4 shots over 0.75 seconds while giving a 0.5 second evade frame similar to shortbow.

Finally, put a piercing trait in for pistols. They need some way to compete with the multitarget capabilities of shortbow which far outclasses pistols in a teamfight.

Problem with unload shots cut in half it breaks SOM procs it cuts down on IP health gain and it compromises the sigil procs with low cooldowns.

The sheer number of shots on unload is part of what makes it tick in the set and Pierce will not make up for that,.

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

Auto could have its damage increased to a 0.75 multiplier since it’s single target damage at only 900 range.

Pistol 2 could have a boon strip with the vuln that would put the utility on par with SB.

Unload could have its shots cut in half if they’d give it a backwards roll (and buff auto). The whole skill could fire 4 shots over 0.75 seconds while giving a 0.5 second evade frame similar to shortbow.

Finally, put a piercing trait in for pistols. They need some way to compete with the multitarget capabilities of shortbow which far outclasses pistols in a teamfight.

Problem with unload shots cut in half it breaks SOM procs it cuts down on IP health gain and it compromises the sigil procs with low cooldowns.

The sheer number of shots on unload is part of what makes it tick in the set and Pierce will not make up for that,.

Yea, but with the channel time cut in half, you should be able to use it twice in the same amount of time. Yes, that’s more initiative, but you also get the evades while you’re hitting ao you ahould be taking less damage overall. In a teamfight, piercing 1 target to hit what you’re aiming at would make up the difference, so positioning yourself to hit clones and pets would give you the same benefit as now. Also, with the majority of the damage coming from the autos, you will have the initiative to interrupt channels that would cause you to burn dodges to avoid currently. I don’t think P/P needs to be held back overall because of the interaction between our signet heal and Unload.

Maugetarr.6823:

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

Auto could have its damage increased to a 0.75 multiplier since it’s single target damage at only 900 range.

Pistol 2 could have a boon strip with the vuln that would put the utility on par with SB.

Unload could have its shots cut in half if they’d give it a backwards roll (and buff auto). The whole skill could fire 4 shots over 0.75 seconds while giving a 0.5 second evade frame similar to shortbow.

Finally, put a piercing trait in for pistols. They need some way to compete with the multitarget capabilities of shortbow which far outclasses pistols in a teamfight.

Problem with unload shots cut in half it breaks SOM procs it cuts down on IP health gain and it compromises the sigil procs with low cooldowns.

The sheer number of shots on unload is part of what makes it tick in the set and Pierce will not make up for that,.

Yea, but with the channel time cut in half, you should be able to use it twice in the same amount of time. Yes, that’s more initiative, but you also get the evades while you’re hitting ao you ahould be taking less damage overall. In a teamfight, piercing 1 target to hit what you’re aiming at would make up the difference, so positioning yourself to hit clones and pets would give you the same benefit as now. Also, with the majority of the damage coming from the autos, you will have the initiative to interrupt channels that would cause you to burn dodges to avoid currently. I don’t think P/P needs to be held back overall because of the interaction between our signet heal and Unload.

The thing is, you’re thinking about this in the PvP vacuum, when you need to think about it in the PvE aspect of the game aswell. Also note that if utilizing maximum range like in in many encounters you are, such as Tequatl or any Fractal bosses etc. a backwards flip is VERY counterproductive as it hurls you out of range, which is also very counterproductive in PvP as it can cause objects to get in the line of fire, the target to go out of range or again atleast in the PvE aspect of the game, for you to get flipped back into an AoE behind you, which could kill in less than a second. We do NOT want any kind of movement tied to Unload. Body Shot is the only skill currently without a valuable function tied to it, so that is where we should look at, for a mobility oriented skill.

Edit: Typoz.

Edit 2: Also, evade frames added into Unload, without anything movement related such as a backward flip, is completely off the table, without removing the ability to move while Unload is casting, which is also unreasonable, considering its one of the best parts about Unload, that you still retain your ability to move and don’t get locked into place, unlike f.ex. Pistol Whip.

How about making one of the P/P skills a blast finisher? I mean, anet still hasn’t said what we will get in exchange for all the revealed stuff, but significant lower initative cost for either #2 or 4 and it being a blast finisher would help a lot, I think.

Jana.6831:

How about making one of the P/P skills a blast finisher? I mean, anet still hasn’t said what we will get in exchange for all the revealed stuff, but significant lower initative cost for either #2 or 4 and it being a blast finisher would help a lot, I think.

Blast finisher? That would mean that the bullet would need to explode… that goes against the purity of pistols… and we can’t go against that…

Zero Day.2594:

Blast finisher? That would mean that the bullet would need to explode… that goes against the purity of pistols… and we can’t go against that…

Nah, cluster bomb makes poof at max and my warrior’s warhorn doesn’t explode either.
I spent 2 hours swifting everything I could find the other day – people weren’t as excited as me though…

Zero Day.2594:

Jana.6831:

How about making one of the P/P skills a blast finisher? I mean, anet still hasn’t said what we will get in exchange for all the revealed stuff, but significant lower initative cost for either #2 or 4 and it being a blast finisher would help a lot, I think.

Blast finisher? That would mean that the bullet would need to explode… that goes against the purity of pistols… and we can’t go against that…

But isn’t BP an explosion already? If it lays a field it has to explode right?

On evade on Unload think range version of war GS#3 it may not be possible but damage boost is not the way to go unless you can down foes instantly.

Sagat.3285:

Zero Day.2594:

Jana.6831:

How about making one of the P/P skills a blast finisher? I mean, anet still hasn’t said what we will get in exchange for all the revealed stuff, but significant lower initative cost for either #2 or 4 and it being a blast finisher would help a lot, I think.

Blast finisher? That would mean that the bullet would need to explode… that goes against the purity of pistols… and we can’t go against that…

But isn’t BP an explosion already? If it lays a field it has to explode right?

…

Well, guess we know what will be “fixed” on Tuesday’s patch.

Zero Day.2594:

Sagat.3285:

Zero Day.2594:

Jana.6831:

How about making one of the P/P skills a blast finisher? I mean, anet still hasn’t said what we will get in exchange for all the revealed stuff, but significant lower initative cost for either #2 or 4 and it being a blast finisher would help a lot, I think.

Blast finisher? That would mean that the bullet would need to explode… that goes against the purity of pistols… and we can’t go against that…

But isn’t BP an explosion already? If it lays a field it has to explode right?

…

Well, guess we know what will be “fixed” on Tuesday’s patch.

Final nail in the coffin T_T.

Shimekiri.1580:

Maugetarr.6823:

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

Auto could have its damage increased to a 0.75 multiplier since it’s single target damage at only 900 range.

Pistol 2 could have a boon strip with the vuln that would put the utility on par with SB.

Unload could have its shots cut in half if they’d give it a backwards roll (and buff auto). The whole skill could fire 4 shots over 0.75 seconds while giving a 0.5 second evade frame similar to shortbow.

Finally, put a piercing trait in for pistols. They need some way to compete with the multitarget capabilities of shortbow which far outclasses pistols in a teamfight.

Problem with unload shots cut in half it breaks SOM procs it cuts down on IP health gain and it compromises the sigil procs with low cooldowns.

The sheer number of shots on unload is part of what makes it tick in the set and Pierce will not make up for that,.

Yea, but with the channel time cut in half, you should be able to use it twice in the same amount of time. Yes, that’s more initiative, but you also get the evades while you’re hitting ao you ahould be taking less damage overall. In a teamfight, piercing 1 target to hit what you’re aiming at would make up the difference, so positioning yourself to hit clones and pets would give you the same benefit as now. Also, with the majority of the damage coming from the autos, you will have the initiative to interrupt channels that would cause you to burn dodges to avoid currently. I don’t think P/P needs to be held back overall because of the interaction between our signet heal and Unload.

The thing is, you’re thinking about this in the PvP vacuum, when you need to think about it in the PvE aspect of the game aswell. Also note that if utilizing maximum range like in in many encounters you are, such as Tequatl or any Fractal bosses etc. a backwards flip is VERY counterproductive as it hurls you out of range, which is also very counterproductive in PvP as it can cause objects to get in the line of fire, the target to go out of range or again atleast in the PvE aspect of the game, for you to get flipped back into an AoE behind you, which could kill in less than a second. We do NOT want any kind of movement tied to Unload. Body Shot is the only skill currently without a valuable function tied to it, so that is where we should look at, for a mobility oriented skill.

Edit: Typoz.

Edit 2: Also, evade frames added into Unload, without anything movement related such as a backward flip, is completely off the table, without removing the ability to move while Unload is casting, which is also unreasonable, considering its one of the best parts about Unload, that you still retain your ability to move and don’t get locked into place, unlike f.ex. Pistol Whip.

Good points and the other can not be forgotten either and that just the “coolness” factor of the bang bang bang bang on each pistol as you move around with guns blazing.

Jana.6831:

How about making one of the P/P skills a blast finisher? I mean, anet still hasn’t said what we will get in exchange for all the revealed stuff, but significant lower initative cost for either #2 or 4 and it being a blast finisher would help a lot, I think.

Hm, what if Unload switched into a roll over skill called reload or something which releases a small aoe blind blast finisher for 1 initiative? It would offer a nice defense at a minimal cost and be a good combo with Black Powder.

Shimekiri.1580:

Maugetarr.6823:

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

Auto could have its damage increased to a 0.75 multiplier since it’s single target damage at only 900 range.

Pistol 2 could have a boon strip with the vuln that would put the utility on par with SB.

Unload could have its shots cut in half if they’d give it a backwards roll (and buff auto). The whole skill could fire 4 shots over 0.75 seconds while giving a 0.5 second evade frame similar to shortbow.

Finally, put a piercing trait in for pistols. They need some way to compete with the multitarget capabilities of shortbow which far outclasses pistols in a teamfight.

Problem with unload shots cut in half it breaks SOM procs it cuts down on IP health gain and it compromises the sigil procs with low cooldowns.

The sheer number of shots on unload is part of what makes it tick in the set and Pierce will not make up for that,.

Yea, but with the channel time cut in half, you should be able to use it twice in the same amount of time. Yes, that’s more initiative, but you also get the evades while you’re hitting ao you ahould be taking less damage overall. In a teamfight, piercing 1 target to hit what you’re aiming at would make up the difference, so positioning yourself to hit clones and pets would give you the same benefit as now. Also, with the majority of the damage coming from the autos, you will have the initiative to interrupt channels that would cause you to burn dodges to avoid currently. I don’t think P/P needs to be held back overall because of the interaction between our signet heal and Unload.

The thing is, you’re thinking about this in the PvP vacuum, when you need to think about it in the PvE aspect of the game aswell. Also note that if utilizing maximum range like in in many encounters you are, such as Tequatl or any Fractal bosses etc. a backwards flip is VERY counterproductive as it hurls you out of range, which is also very counterproductive in PvP as it can cause objects to get in the line of fire, the target to go out of range or again atleast in the PvE aspect of the game, for you to get flipped back into an AoE behind you, which could kill in less than a second. We do NOT want any kind of movement tied to Unload. Body Shot is the only skill currently without a valuable function tied to it, so that is where we should look at, for a mobility oriented skill.

But you’re talking about preserving a skill that turns the set into a 3 spam. Yes I am looking at it in a PvP vacuum because you can use virtually any weapon set in PvE and be successful. The point of this though is not to keep using unload like you currently do which would support your concern, but rather to move the damage to the autoattack so you have the options to use 2-5 when the fight calls for it rather than having to sink all of your initiative into unload.

Right now the total multiplier is 2.4 over 1.75 seconds (including aftercast). That makes the skill into 1.31 mult/sec. That doesn’t sound so bad, except that when you normalize it over the time to recharge 5 Initiative, it drops to 0.48 mult/sec of recharge. Do you know what else has a 0.48 mult/sec? Vital shot in its current form. The thing is that people see big numbers on Unload and assume it’s a good skill on the set, but it’s such a resource hog that it’s holding the rest of the set back. So why did I pick 0.75? Well, when you use Unload (and hit with the full channel) and add that to the damage from the 4 remaining shots in the 5 seconds waiting for initiative to regen, you get a 0.8 mult/sec ((2.4 + 4×0.4)÷5). They wanted to give pistols a ~20% boost, so 0.8×1.2=0.96 mult/sec. Changing the autoattack to 0.75 then dividing it by its shot to shot time gives us 0.75÷0.82=0.91, which is a 13% boost to the current unload + autoattack that P/P is on just the autoattack. I didn’t give it the full 20% because we have the initiative to use all of our skills on the bar as needed while still maintaining higher overall DPS than we currently do with the set for no initiative.

Sure, the stuff that you mentioned could be a problem if you continue to use Unload like the set demands right now, but you shouldn’t be doing that anymore because the changes allow you to use the skills on the set as needed rather than the initiative sink the set is in its current form.

Raiden.1375:

Jana.6831:

How about making one of the P/P skills a blast finisher? I mean, anet still hasn’t said what we will get in exchange for all the revealed stuff, but significant lower initative cost for either #2 or 4 and it being a blast finisher would help a lot, I think.

Hm, what if Unload switched into a roll over skill called reload or something which releases a small aoe blind blast finisher for 1 initiative? It would offer a nice defense at a minimal cost and be a good combo with Black Powder.

Aren’t the roll over skills always when one clicks the skill twice? And I want to be able to spam unload on teq and some fractal bosses. And probably everybody wants to spam uload more than once from time to time.
So, take a skill that’s rarely used – but if you use smoke field and unload to blind your enemy you’ll likely have an initative problem to press a third skill as unload lasts pretty long and the smoke field isn’t up forever.

Edit: Just tested it again: a smoke field lasts long enough to use unload once and an additional skill. With trickery you also have more than enough initative – at least once.

Jana.6831:

Aren’t the roll over skills always when one clicks the skill twice? And I want to be able to spam unload on teq and some fractal bosses. And probably everybody wants to spam uload more than once from time to time.
So, take a skill that’s rarely used – but if you use smoke field and unload to blind your enemy you’ll likely have an initative problem to press a third skill as unload lasts pretty long and the smoke field isn’t up forever.

Edit: Just tested it again: a smoke field lasts long enough to use unload once and an additional skill. With trickery you also have more than enough initative – at least once.

Yeah, you would have about 5 seconds to press the skill again to activate the roll over skill, so you would have several options for the order you use the skills in. If it only costs 1 initiative, it shouldn’t take much away from Unload spamming either. I’m sure with HoT PVE content will be more challenging anyway, so the added defense option would be welcome on the set. Regardless, the only other skill that could maybe fit in a blast finisher is #2, because #4 is already pretty good, and if it was a blast finisher then off hand pistol could stealth you all by itself.

But I don’t need a blast finisher against PvE bosses. Mostly. So, the idea is kind of nice, but then I would have no real ranged weapon for PvE.
I stopped caring about PvE a looong time ago =) HoT doesn’t change that.
Still I want to kitten around with my friends in fractals.

While I get the +20% is equal to Ini argument, it assumes that my goal is to fire twice for damage alone. I want to proc crits too. I would rather have the ini reduction.

Still, I’ll take the damage bonus. I want my 1200 range though. It’s too easy for ranged characters to keep me at their optimal and remain outside of mine.

Two general comments:

• Don’t screw with Unload. Do something with the other attacks.
• Please keep in mind that what works for other builds doesn’t necessarily work with P/P. The utilities that give us decent synergy also mean we have to sacrifice pretty much everything that the typical thief uses. Alternately, we take those things and limp along with the pistols. I guess we’ll see how the damage bonus affects choices.

Maugetarr.6823:

Shimekiri.1580:

Maugetarr.6823:

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

Auto could have its damage increased to a 0.75 multiplier since it’s single target damage at only 900 range.

Pistol 2 could have a boon strip with the vuln that would put the utility on par with SB.

Unload could have its shots cut in half if they’d give it a backwards roll (and buff auto). The whole skill could fire 4 shots over 0.75 seconds while giving a 0.5 second evade frame similar to shortbow.

Finally, put a piercing trait in for pistols. They need some way to compete with the multitarget capabilities of shortbow which far outclasses pistols in a teamfight.

Problem with unload shots cut in half it breaks SOM procs it cuts down on IP health gain and it compromises the sigil procs with low cooldowns.

The sheer number of shots on unload is part of what makes it tick in the set and Pierce will not make up for that,.

Yea, but with the channel time cut in half, you should be able to use it twice in the same amount of time. Yes, that’s more initiative, but you also get the evades while you’re hitting ao you ahould be taking less damage overall. In a teamfight, piercing 1 target to hit what you’re aiming at would make up the difference, so positioning yourself to hit clones and pets would give you the same benefit as now. Also, with the majority of the damage coming from the autos, you will have the initiative to interrupt channels that would cause you to burn dodges to avoid currently. I don’t think P/P needs to be held back overall because of the interaction between our signet heal and Unload.

The thing is, you’re thinking about this in the PvP vacuum, when you need to think about it in the PvE aspect of the game aswell. Also note that if utilizing maximum range like in in many encounters you are, such as Tequatl or any Fractal bosses etc. a backwards flip is VERY counterproductive as it hurls you out of range, which is also very counterproductive in PvP as it can cause objects to get in the line of fire, the target to go out of range or again atleast in the PvE aspect of the game, for you to get flipped back into an AoE behind you, which could kill in less than a second. We do NOT want any kind of movement tied to Unload. Body Shot is the only skill currently without a valuable function tied to it, so that is where we should look at, for a mobility oriented skill.

But you’re talking about preserving a skill that turns the set into a 3 spam. Yes I am looking at it in a PvP vacuum because you can use virtually any weapon set in PvE and be successful. The point of this though is not to keep using unload like you currently do which would support your concern, but rather to move the damage to the autoattack so you have the options to use 2-5 when the fight calls for it rather than having to sink all of your initiative into unload.

Right now the total multiplier is 2.4 over 1.75 seconds (including aftercast). That makes the skill into 1.31 mult/sec. That doesn’t sound so bad, except that when you normalize it over the time to recharge 5 Initiative, it drops to 0.48 mult/sec of recharge. Do you know what else has a 0.48 mult/sec? Vital shot in its current form. The thing is that people see big numbers on Unload and assume it’s a good skill on the set, but it’s such a resource hog that it’s holding the rest of the set back. So why did I pick 0.75? Well, when you use Unload (and hit with the full channel) and add that to the damage from the 4 remaining shots in the 5 seconds waiting for initiative to regen, you get a 0.8 mult/sec ((2.4 + 4×0.4)÷5). They wanted to give pistols a ~20% boost, so 0.8×1.2=0.96 mult/sec. Changing the autoattack to 0.75 then dividing it by its shot to shot time gives us 0.75÷0.82=0.91, which is a 13% boost to the current unload + autoattack that P/P is on just the autoattack. I didn’t give it the full 20% because we have the initiative to use all of our skills on the bar as needed while still maintaining higher overall DPS than we currently do with the set for no initiative.

Sure, the stuff that you mentioned could be a problem if you continue to use Unload like the set demands right now, but you shouldn’t be doing that anymore because the changes allow you to use the skills on the set as needed rather than the initiative sink the set is in its current form.

I understand your point, but you’re trying to fix what isn’t broken. The AA wouldn’t be able to replace the synergy of Unload with sigils, on-crit effects and various field effects such as blind. Also, just buffing AA damage multiplier and nerfing Unload wouldn’t change the situation to the better, it would actually make it worse as in your case, all the PvE people would be doing is use the AA and afk/spam Black Powder.(And I don’t think this would be rare in PvP either.) Unload would become in PvE pretty much the same as Body Shot is in both PvE and PvP, useless outside of very rare niche situations, whilst making playing P/P in atleast in PvE an AA chore which is boring as hell as you wouldn’t need to do anything except move out of the random crap thrown at you. This isn’t something anyone really wants and I don’t think you want that either. Also, if we went down this route, you’d still be leaving our most useless skill, Body Shot, as is, with no changes and by buffing the AA damage multiplier, instead of the attack speed, you’d leave the set extremely slow-paced with even less to do than currently.

There are three things P/P truly needs(Atleast in my opinion.), a mobility skill, AoE capability and AA attack speed boost to 1/3s or 1/4s, to bring P/P closer to what the other classes and weapon sets on thief itself are capable of dishing out damage-wise. Body Shot is the perfect and only viable candidate for the mobility skill and for AoE, pierce would be the go-to non-random mechanic, if randomness was the true reason the bounce mechanic was removed.

i already love playing around with P/P in pvp unranked matches
i play full glass zerker and chuck out 20k dmg in several seconds thanks to the new fury and quickness traits,
i do miss ricochet, but when i saw that we were getting a 20% dmg increase i was ECSTATIC!
the only letdown will be if they boost everything by 20% except the one and only skill i use! Unload!

Shimekiri.1580:

Maugetarr.6823:

Shimekiri.1580:

Maugetarr.6823:

babazhook.6805:

Maugetarr.6823:

Auto could have its damage increased to a 0.75 multiplier since it’s single target damage at only 900 range.

Pistol 2 could have a boon strip with the vuln that would put the utility on par with SB.

Unload could have its shots cut in half if they’d give it a backwards roll (and buff auto). The whole skill could fire 4 shots over 0.75 seconds while giving a 0.5 second evade frame similar to shortbow.

Finally, put a piercing trait in for pistols. They need some way to compete with the multitarget capabilities of shortbow which far outclasses pistols in a teamfight.

Problem with unload shots cut in half it breaks SOM procs it cuts down on IP health gain and it compromises the sigil procs with low cooldowns.

The sheer number of shots on unload is part of what makes it tick in the set and Pierce will not make up for that,.

Yea, but with the channel time cut in half, you should be able to use it twice in the same amount of time. Yes, that’s more initiative, but you also get the evades while you’re hitting ao you ahould be taking less damage overall. In a teamfight, piercing 1 target to hit what you’re aiming at would make up the difference, so positioning yourself to hit clones and pets would give you the same benefit as now. Also, with the majority of the damage coming from the autos, you will have the initiative to interrupt channels that would cause you to burn dodges to avoid currently. I don’t think P/P needs to be held back overall because of the interaction between our signet heal and Unload.

The thing is, you’re thinking about this in the PvP vacuum, when you need to think about it in the PvE aspect of the game aswell. Also note that if utilizing maximum range like in in many encounters you are, such as Tequatl or any Fractal bosses etc. a backwards flip is VERY counterproductive as it hurls you out of range, which is also very counterproductive in PvP as it can cause objects to get in the line of fire, the target to go out of range or again atleast in the PvE aspect of the game, for you to get flipped back into an AoE behind you, which could kill in less than a second. We do NOT want any kind of movement tied to Unload. Body Shot is the only skill currently without a valuable function tied to it, so that is where we should look at, for a mobility oriented skill.

But you’re talking about preserving a skill that turns the set into a 3 spam. Yes I am looking at it in a PvP vacuum because you can use virtually any weapon set in PvE and be successful. The point of this though is not to keep using unload like you currently do which would support your concern, but rather to move the damage to the autoattack so you have the options to use 2-5 when the fight calls for it rather than having to sink all of your initiative into unload.

Right now the total multiplier is 2.4 over 1.75 seconds (including aftercast). That makes the skill into 1.31 mult/sec. That doesn’t sound so bad, except that when you normalize it over the time to recharge 5 Initiative, it drops to 0.48 mult/sec of recharge. Do you know what else has a 0.48 mult/sec? Vital shot in its current form. The thing is that people see big numbers on Unload and assume it’s a good skill on the set, but it’s such a resource hog that it’s holding the rest of the set back. So why did I pick 0.75? Well, when you use Unload (and hit with the full channel) and add that to the damage from the 4 remaining shots in the 5 seconds waiting for initiative to regen, you get a 0.8 mult/sec ((2.4 + 4×0.4)÷5). They wanted to give pistols a ~20% boost, so 0.8×1.2=0.96 mult/sec. Changing the autoattack to 0.75 then dividing it by its shot to shot time gives us 0.75÷0.82=0.91, which is a 13% boost to the current unload + autoattack that P/P is on just the autoattack. I didn’t give it the full 20% because we have the initiative to use all of our skills on the bar as needed while still maintaining higher overall DPS than we currently do with the set for no initiative.

Sure, the stuff that you mentioned could be a problem if you continue to use Unload like the set demands right now, but you shouldn’t be doing that anymore because the changes allow you to use the skills on the set as needed rather than the initiative sink the set is in its current form.

I understand your point, but you’re trying to fix what isn’t broken. The AA wouldn’t be able to replace the synergy of Unload with sigils, on-crit effects and various field effects such as blind. Also, just buffing AA damage multiplier and nerfing Unload wouldn’t change the situation to the better, it would actually make it worse as in your case, all the PvE people would be doing is use the AA and afk/spam Black Powder.(And I don’t think this would be rare in PvP either.) Unload would become in PvE pretty much the same as Body Shot is in both PvE and PvP, useless outside of very rare niche situations, whilst making playing P/P in atleast in PvE an AA chore which is boring as hell as you wouldn’t need to do anything except move out of the random crap thrown at you. This isn’t something anyone really wants and I don’t think you want that either. Also, if we went down this route, you’d still be leaving our most useless skill, Body Shot, as is, with no changes and by buffing the AA damage multiplier, instead of the attack speed, you’d leave the set extremely slow-paced with even less to do than currently.

There are three things P/P truly needs(Atleast in my opinion.), a mobility skill, AoE capability and AA attack speed boost to 1/3s or 1/4s, to bring P/P closer to what the other classes and weapon sets on thief itself are capable of dishing out damage-wise. Body Shot is the perfect and only viable candidate for the mobility skill and for AoE, pierce would be the go-to non-random mechanic, if randomness was the true reason the bounce mechanic was removed.

But I’m going to disagree with you and say that unload is broken. All the sustained damage comes from unload which ia an initiative hog. My suggested changes move the sustained damage to the autos and put the utility back into the reat of the set. P/P will still retain it’s burst DPS on unload, but won’t be dependant on the skill just to maintain DPS. Keep in mind unload saw a significant DPS boost when its channel was reduced from an overall 2.35 second cast time to a 1.75 second cast time. That was a 35% DPS boost to the skill which still left P/P in the same situation. A flat buff to damage across the board isn’t going to change how you use the set mechanically. Also, i would like to point out that body shot is only useless because it takes away from the initiative needed to maintain the sustained damage from Unload. It makes no mathematical sense to spend it on body shot because it will lower your DPS overall. Moving the sustained damage to the autoattack would allow you to use body shot in a way that makes sense because it wouldn’t lower the frequency of your damaging attacks. Sure body shot could use a mechanical change too which is why I think boon hate would be good for it, but mobility wouldn’t be bad either.

As for proc chance, in the same time frame as you have 8 shots right now from unload, you would have 5 total from unload and 1 auto. The difference between the proc chances is actually very small. Not to mention that you would have the initiative to spend on 100% projectile finishers.

As an aside, 3 spam right now on P/P is your autoattack for the set; it just costs initiative so you don’t have initiative left for anything else on the set. Saying that P/P will become tedious because it’s sustained damage will come from 1 instead of 3 is the wrong way to look at it. P/P is already tedious mechanically. If it weren’t for the cool looking animation, it would be much more apparent.

What P/P needs is to not have its sustained damage attached to initiative, but autos like the other successful sets. The other skills need to have utility in them or burst damage. P4&5 are un a good position. Unload essentially needs to be moved to the 1 position in functiin since it’s providing the sustained DPS for the set while P2&3 need to be given situationally useful utility (condi clears, boon hate, evades, mobility, whatever). Unload fights the thief design right now because it is the substitute for a poor autoattack.

Jana.6831:

But I don’t need a blast finisher against PvE bosses. Mostly. So, the idea is kind of nice, but then I would have no real ranged weapon for PvE.
I stopped caring about PvE a looong time ago =) HoT doesn’t change that.
Still I want to kitten around with my friends in fractals.

Well with the 20% damage increases or whatever will come on Tuesday, the dps from pistols will be better than it is now. Even without that, I don’t think this change would make Unload or P/P pointless for PVE. The blast finisher could be used on an ally’s fire field to get some extra might if damage is a concern.

Black Frog.9274:

While I get the +20% is equal to Ini argument, it assumes that my goal is to fire twice for damage alone. I want to proc crits too. I would rather have the ini reduction.

Still, I’ll take the damage bonus. I want my 1200 range though. It’s too easy for ranged characters to keep me at their optimal and remain outside of mine.

Two general comments:

• Don’t screw with Unload. Do something with the other attacks.
• Please keep in mind that what works for other builds doesn’t necessarily work with P/P. The utilities that give us decent synergy also mean we have to sacrifice pretty much everything that the typical thief uses. Alternately, we take those things and limp along with the pistols. I guess we’ll see how the damage bonus affects choices.

If Unload is untouchable, then the only skill available to modify is pretty much just Body Shot. It doesn’t really need to be another high damage skill since Unload covers that, but the damage could probably be buffed a bit still. The immobilize from Body Shot is actually a pretty nice cc/kiting option, and it offers nice offensive group support. If the vulnerability on Body Shot is swapped out with 2-3 seconds of weakness instead, it should be pretty good. I think my suggestion for Unload would be nice in addition to this and wouldn’t change the overall theme of the skill too much.

Maugetarr.6823:

As an aside, 3 spam right now on P/P is your autoattack for the set; it just costs initiative so you don’t have initiative left for anything else on the set. Saying that P/P will become tedious because it’s sustained damage will come from 1 instead of 3 is the wrong way to look at it. P/P is already tedious mechanically. If it weren’t for the cool looking animation, it would be much more apparent.

I agree. The direct damage from the auto attack is so low right now that you have to use Unload more than usual just to keep up any kind of decent dps.

20% damage is a start but the conditions are still mediocre, and there’s still no survivibility, and there’s still no way to hit multiple targets …. this change is missing the point of why players don’t like p/p.