Guild Wars 2

Obviously I am a noob, and not worthy to run any dungeons. Not even StoryMode. I am clearly doing everything wrong. So fellow Thieves, please help me understand how I should spec and gear for dungeons. I do PvE only. (I never cared about PvP). I would say I’m a “slightly above average” player. With decent reflexes, a low ping, lots of time, and half a brain.

So far I have learned.
1) You can’t be glass cannon in dungeons.
You will die. So I spec first Toughness/Healing. Secondly Vitality+BoonDuration (so I can get VigorOnHealing). Thirdly Precision+CritDamage. My gear has as much +healing and toughness as I can find, and secondly a mix of precision/power and vitality.

2) You can’t be melee in dungeons.
You’ll die a lot more in melee than when ranged. Of course some players have such large schkitties that they can do anything they want. But for most players, ranged is the preferred way to go. I use shortbows now.

3) You need synergy.
And that is where my questions are.
What traits can I get to help my party ? What combo fields should I use ?

• The only one I can find is: Lotus Poison (weakens the target when you poison him -> target will do 50% less damage to you and your party). Do you need a special “poison build” to maximize the amount of time you apply poisons (and weaken the target) ? Do I need special weapons to maximize poisoning ? Daggers and shortbow have poison in their nr-1-ability. Pistols don’t apply poison at all. I don’t know about the other weapons.
  So, is Lotus Poison any good ? What is the best way to use it ?

• What is the best way to heal ourselves ? So far, I think the Signet of Malice (which heals us every time we do damage) is by far the most healing/minute. The passive healing is so good, that using the active ability is almost a form of suicide. Do we have any other ways to heal ourself ?

• Do we have any way to heal our party ?

• Do we have any way to remove conditions on our party-members ? If so, how ? Can we do it intentionally ? Or is it something that procs by luck ?

• How can I remove conditions on myself ? I think Signet of Malice is the only viable healing-skill for us (constant healing when doing constant damage). But the other 2 healing skills can remove (some) conditions (but not all). Or I can go daggers, go stealth (C&D/5) and use the trait “Shadow’s Embrace -> remove 1 condition while in stealth”. Too bad C&D only seems to get you in stealth when you are actually in melee-range. (And see lesson nr 2: you need to play ranged).

• Does anyone know anything about aggro ? I think to most players it feels like magic. Lucky for us, we can’t have a glass cannon build. So our dps will be low anyway, and there’s less chance we’ll draw aggro. Is there anything we can do to lower aggro ? Or drop aggro alltogether ? (Don’t think so, but please enlighten me).

• What fields can I, or should I, use in dungeons ? The “Choking Gass” ability (nr 2) with shortbow seems useful. But it is purely an offensive ability. Do we have defensive field abilities ?

• If I use “black powder” with pistols, do I need to stand with my party, or stand close to the mob(s) ? I think I need to stand close to the mobs, with is counter-intuitive with ranged gameplay. I am confused.

• I was told that in GW2, we are not limited by profession. You can play any profession you want, any spec, any weapon, any role. There is not trinity. But now we find out there is control & support. Maybe even tanking. Can Thieves play any of those roles ? Or are we limited to “just do dps” ? Is there any other way for us to be useful in a dungeon ?

I am sure I will come up with more questions later.
I am too dumb to even know what questions to ask now.
All answers are appreciated.
All helpful information on how to play a Thief in a dungeon is appreciated.
We might even be able to make a guide for Thieves out of this thread.

First of all, you’re not dumb, so stop being stupid (lol contradictions).
2nd, as a fellow thief noob, i just stand mykitten in the back and shoot shortbow arrows at em. Use Cluster bomb on the enemy, and shoot the choking gas at your ally (becomes a combo field that makes ur buddies shoot poison. For this build, i’d do defense, vit and condition traits. I also use sig of malice, and for an elite, honestly, nothing beats daggerstorm when used with signet of malice. Also, try roll for initiative, im fairly sure it removes some conditions while allowing you to regain some initiative quickly.

Take a look at this awesome guide made by a user named Kirin. It really helped me in dungeons with my Thief.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Kirin-s-Guide-for-Aspiring-PVE-Support-Thieves

- What is the best way to heal ourselves ? So far, I think the Signet of Malice (which heals us every time we do damage) is by far the most healing/minute. The passive healing is so good, that using the active ability is almost a form of suicide. Do we have any other ways to heal ourself ?
- Do we have any way to heal our party ?

I think these 2 fall in the same category. What new players need to learn asap is combos are vital in this game for fast and smooth progress in dungeon/personal story etc.
For example, as a thief you can use Heartseeker to jump through a water combo field (Ranger’s healing spring, Elementalist’s staff water magic). This jumping will cause a small water burst to surround you when you land the heartseeker, healing allies in the vicinity for 300~ (lvl 80) depending on your healing power.

If you have a necromancer friend, he can put down a dark combo field (we thieves have a “dark” combo field too = Shadow refuge!), which makes every ranged projectile shot through it (pistol/bows/rifles) do lifestealing dmg.

These are just few examples on how combos work, ofc there will be many more but I leave it to you for exploring

Here’s a disorganized list of stuff I’ve learned doing dungeons so far. And yes, thieves can fill any roll they want to, it’s just maybe not as obvious as other classes.

• Shadow refuge is a great way to stealth rez downed players, as well as provide a combo field and regen to melee players.
• Blinds are amazing, you seem to have skimmed over them. They’re one of the best things you can provide your group. Black Powder works as a combo field and is a great way to blind (you can be at range). So is Smoke screen (Smoke screen also blocks all projectiles! Great for locking down a ranged mob for a few seconds!)
• Shortbow is great for AoE fights, and P/P is great for single target
  SB: Poison everyone, drop clisterbombs, shoot arrows through a smoke screen (aoe blind)
  P/P: Stack vulnerability (#2 ability) and bleeds (auto attack) and apply blinds using Black Powder and/or smoke screen. Interrupts (4 on P/P) are amazing for stopping big attacks! Burst it down with Unload when it’s low on health.
• Venom shares can be pretty useful as well, as everyone gets any venoms you use. They also get any “on venom application” trait bonuses too!
• Some traits apply boons to teammates when you steal!
• Stealth drops aggro. SB 3 ability has an evade built in and is one of (if not the) best kiting abilities in game.
• Melee is very possible. I’d go S/P. Your 3 ability has a constant evade built in along with a stun for “free” interrupts (in addition to #4’s instant interrupt). Combine that with near constant blind applications and maybe traiting for extra endurance and you’re a pretty decent “tank”. Things get too hairy? Drop a Shadow Refuge to lose aggro and drop back to range or kite them with SB. Thieves Guild will also draw aggro away from you and your group, while applying more blinds and damage!
• Against a boss with lots of condition damage? Use Hide in the Shadows, it can remove most conditions every 30 seconds.
• Getting stunned a lot? Shadow step can effectively break 2 stuns in a row.

I run dungeons as a melee thief. S/P is kinda op. #2 into a group of mobs, #5, and you’re insta-tank for ~5 sec. Then #3 and you’ll tank for a bit more. Sword autoattack 3rd hit applies weakness – maor tank. If things get hairy, re-use 2 to pop out to a safe distance. if the 15 sec timer on 2 ran out, I use withdrawl for heal. Then pop back in with #2 again.

Trait wise I run 5/0/5/30/30. Could do 15/0/5/25/25 too (for the weakness on poision. Can stack perma-weakness if you use choking gas, shoot 3 arrows, choking gas, 3 arrows, etc.)

Scorpion Wire is a fantastic pulling tool. Can break up some of the harder packs on trash pulls.

OK, so we got some good utility tools. I hadn’t thought of Scorpion Wire.

But so far, it seems we have no other self-healing besides out Signet.
We have no way to remove conditions (when we use a suboptimal trinket we can remove one every 30 sec, I knew that).
We can’t heal others. (I don’t take the leap through a water field very serious. You end up at the mob, the “healing area” will be at the mob, while most party-member stand at range).
We can’t remove conditions from others.

Still looks like we are very vulnerable. Still looks like we don’t add much to the survivability of the group.

Thanks, Thomasqk, I’ll read that guide tomorrow.

Thanks for that list xabre. But indeed, it seems a bit unorganized. We have a lot of “stuff” we can do. But I don’t see any coherency there how we can be of real value for the party. Or improve overall survivability. I still feel like a Thief is a “pure dps” class. I remember standing on the roof of the bank in Orgrimmar in 2005, LFG, but nobody wants yet another useless rogue in their 5-man party.

Abuse blind and stealth like a boss.

You can face tank entire groups if you manage your resource correctly and your stealth based utility skills, you still have to play very carefully.. aoe attacks are the bane of your existances so mobility and some quick thinking are still key

I play a sword/pistol > shortbow thief in dungeons.. with traits that grant bonuses when I stealth (gives initiative/etc) and when I steal (more initiative/buffs).. stuff like blinding powder/shadow refuge/smoke screen/scorp wire are all brilliant in the right situation.

Thomasqk.8209:

Take a look at this awesome guide made by a user named Kirin. It really helped me in dungeons with my Thief.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Kirin-s-Guide-for-Aspiring-PVE-Support-Thieves

OK, I finally read the guide.
A few things I knew, a few things that I hadn’t thought of myself.
Definitely worth reading.

However, as I had thought: we do not have:
1) more ways to heal ourselves besides our nr6 healing ability.
2) no ways to heal party members.
3) no way to remove conditions from ourself (except using a inferior healing ability)
4) no ways to remove conditions from party members.

I feel very vulnerable as a Thief. Combined with the unbelievable damage we take, this is not fun, imho. I don’t mind rocks being thrown at me. As long as I have tools to deal with it. But without any tools, I just feel like a sitting duck.

Gryz.8376:

Thomasqk.8209:

Take a look at this awesome guide made by a user named Kirin. It really helped me in dungeons with my Thief.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Kirin-s-Guide-for-Aspiring-PVE-Support-Thieves

OK, I finally read the guide.
A few things I knew, a few things that I hadn’t thought of myself.
Definitely worth reading.

However, as I had thought: we do not have:
1) more ways to heal ourselves besides our nr6 healing ability.
2) no ways to heal party members.
3) no way to remove conditions from ourself (except using a inferior healing ability)
4) no ways to remove conditions from party members.

I feel very vulnerable as a Thief. Combined with the unbelievable damage we take, this is not fun, imho. I don’t mind rocks being thrown at me. As long as I have tools to deal with it. But without any tools, I just feel like a sitting duck.

Try sword pistol, it has a condition removal on the 2 skill which i find essential for pve

1 + 2) shadow refuge heals allies and yourself, it is also a combo field which will enable life steal on ranged attacks.

You can trait stealth so it applies regen to yourself and allies.

3) You can trait stealth to remove conditions, the shadow return ability for the sword and shadowstep removes conditions.. the sword skill can be used repeatedly if needed.

4) I think you are right here, removing conditions from allies is something the thief can’t do.

Open your mind a little when it comes to making a build to take on dungeons, you can avoid alot of the ‘unbelievable’ damage with the right tools at hand.

Important note about blinding – it doesn’t work on champion enemies. It works wonders on all others, making nearly all of their attacks 100% miss.

For champions, use skale or basilisk venom. Especially if you have venomous aura which gives anyone standing around you the venom on their attacks too! It’s amazing how much faster a large enemy with more HP than they should reasonably have goes down when you apply the skale venom’s defense-cutting status to them.

Being melee in dungeons isn’t THAT tough, you just need to know when to get the hell out of Dodge. And, well, use your dodge skill.

I see a lot of “we don’t have a way to remove conditions” and "we don’t have a good way to heal ourselves, but that’s not true.

1. Healing – I’ve concentrated on healing that is group-friendly and fairly easy to access – shadow protector is accessible at 10 pts into shadow arts. You can not only heal yourself on stealth but allies. Now smokescreen with shortbow out becomes a grp heal, too. This adds some benefit to hide in shadows, but signet is still an option. Also makes a 2nd thief already dropping smoke a boon to the group since you can go sb and just put up a grp regen every 3 seconds or so. It’s not going to keep someone alive by itself, but it’s amazing what a little regen can do when it’s consistently kept up.

2. Shadowstep removes conditions, removes stuns, and gets you out of a lot of crap if you make sure to keep it active at all times. S/P is a great way to run against stuff as far as I’ve found. I’m only low 50s so far I run 0/5/10/20/10. I melee all the time. Smoke field, autoattack for aoe weakness. Since I’m not really concentrating on dmg i don’t get targeted and I just have to avoid aoe dmg. on ranged only fights i have the shortbow or if I know it’s coming I can go p/p (first boss in cm is a good one to NOT melee).

Heck you can just sit there and autoattack a boss and be useful with that weakness even though it doesn’t last as long.

In dungeons sustainable debuffs are sometimes more useful to your grp than straight dps. 1 smoke field can prevent a lot of damage making it better than healing. Boss fights you can interupt, root via shadow step, weaken with autoattack – just like any other MMO, 5 support chars who have good cc/debuff/buffs and can put out at least some decent damage will do way better than 5 glass cannon builds.

I didn’t see anyone else mentioning this so…

Signet of Agility: Passive: Grants increased precision. Active: Refill endurance and cure a condition for each nearby ally.

I use it myself in dungeons and it is quite handy.

If you want additional healing skill – use shadow refuge + Dagger storm = Leeching bolts. If you have a group of enemies around, this combo can heal for good amount and deal great damage at the same time. If you have a Necro with you, then you can use Dagger Storm on his Wells without wasting the shadow refuge

Combos

Leap finisher through a water field/circle is only self healing, you need a blast finisher for area healing.

Death blossom is a whirl finisher. Healing bolts which puts regen on people to add to the regen they’re already getting from projectile finishers. People who drop water fields are godsends to a group. I actually ran d/d and s/p and did very well. survivability is a little tricker with d/d since you are not blinding and evading quite as often (ldb is a quick animation while pistol whip lasts a while). But that’s the same reason you do more damage.

Spam death blossom a few times in a water field and you will stack some extra regen on the group while stacking bleeds. One of the thieves’ best abilities is to spam combo finishers. With someone who can drop regular water fields around, LDB might become our most effective group heal (that or cluster bomb).

I think any 30 thief going into AC should strongly consider going 0/0/10/10/0 for the vit and toughness. The abilities you pick up are actually secondary to just having the +100 in each of those 2 stats because it’s the difference between being 1-shotted and losing maybe 3/4 hp and having time to heal and remove conditions. I went in at 58 with 10/20/10/8/0 and was not only doing respectable dps, I think. The sigil traits in crit tree give us a lot of burst potential for things not just from the precision and dmg boost, but the sigil traits.

How to play a Thief in Guild Wars 2 dungeons:

1. Stay at ranged and do damage.
2. Watch for the “here comes the 1 shot” hint, dodge/evade ability.
3. If you want to go to “I could get kittened up anytime without being able to dodge zone” also known as “melee range” then do so after the target did a 1 shot ability, so atleast you have window of semi-safety.
4. Use your downed teleport wisely. You can get revived by your team if you port to a safe distance near them.

Hope that helps bro.

Gryz.8376:

Still looks like we are very vulnerable. Still looks like we don’t add much to the survivability of the group.

You have “spammable” combo finishers which add a lot to the survivability if utilized properly.

I do think that AoE heals, Chaos Armor, swiftness, blinds, weakness, cleansing bolts, etc. help a lot. With no recharge time on the skills it is easier to finish the combos when time is right as you are less limited in that area compared to other professions. You need other professions for most of the combo fields but is not a problem as you are in the group with other players.

You can also blind tank, make pulls easier with Scorpion Wire, rez people more safely, ..

The “problem” with thiefs is that the utility of the profession may be less obvious compared to other professions because it is often hidden in the traits and conditions/combo finisher charasteristics of the offensive abilities. You don’t see tooltips on your skills where it is written “You heal ..” or “Grant protection ..” on skills. That leads the players into the pure damage dealing mindset and frustration in the dungeons.

If you ever do melee (only doe this when the enemy doesn’t have an insta-kill area-effect attack), do it in quick bursts. Use blinding shot to get right next to them instantly. Blinding doesn’t work on champion enemies so don’t think that’ll save you.

Two things I’ve learned work well on them is heartseek, 1 chain and then fleeing. Or better yet, get within leaping range, use black powder, heartseek into them, backstab, then evade out of there.

You’re not a warrior or guardian, so you never want to get into a face-to-face confrontation. You want to hit-and-run and only do that when you know they’re not going to suddenly turn a 20 foot radius around themselves into pain and death. In other words, NEVER attempt melee on area-effect bosses.