Guild Wars 2

One of the main problems with condi vs power builds in pvp is: when you manage to hit your power ability, the dmg is unleashed on the opponent and he can’t do anything to prevent it anymore, but with condi build even if you hit your spell (opponent failed to dodge for example) , your opponent can still almost fully prevent it with condi removal. Even if you hit all your opening Death blossoms and get 9 stacks of bleeds, any player with common sense will cleanse it right away and you are left with mhmm, no initative.
Considering the amount of condi removing abilities/traits (and there is a lot of them) condi build are very unreliable for pvp.
Considering condi ignores toughness, do you think this is a fair exchange?

I would agree its a fair exchange. Also, you can apply Poison. So with my peoples skills being 1 condition based removals, Stacking the bleeds then adding the poison would always just make the poison removed and just continue to reapply Bleed→Poison the dmg would still be sustained. However, for professions like Guardians and Necros that steal people Conditions to themselves and have the ability to apply them as boons to themselves or conditions onto you, could get frustrating. Though I feel that is mostly where the strategy would come in for counter build and your specific attack group. There will always be a bane.

IMO in pvp both are viable.

Power is better in short fight, vs glass canon.
Fit well if you like assassin like thiefs, tactic is to burst everything on first combo. there is no second chance (since you’ll be out of initiative.) Build all offence here Critical Strike and Deadly Art.

Condition will get better on on longer fights. Fit well if you like hit and run tactic. where first hit is not there to destroy the opponent but to make him weaker for second strike (you wait stealthed for him to waste his Condition removal). Better burst only enough initiative on first strike to make him do so. Acrobatic and Shadow Art and Trickery build here.

Well, I can’t find a single reason why would anyone take condi thief over power thief right now.
Condi build should perhaps be brought to kill heavy toughness targets, but every high toughness target has reliable condi removals (they would be stupid not to take one), so you are useless here as well.
For low toughness targets, power absolutely dominates, no reason whatsoever to go condi instead of power for it.
Also, power builds get trebuchet down in few seconds, condi needs years.
So, what exactly is the strength of condi build?

I’m not sure it has a strength. at least for thief. There’s no sustained damage possible via conditions only. at best you could have a mixed approach with some condition damage and some power, leaving neither weak. Trying to be a superspecialist could be a mistake in this game. Hybrids may end up most viable

Like FiendGore.6205 said only one codition is removed most of the time, so adding some less important condition (anything but bleed) greatly improve condition viability.

Generally speaking Condition will be better against weaker player, inexperimented and will please the cat like predator that like to play with pray.

It’s said that condition will get a tweak on structure in a future balance patch.

obtuse.8291:

I’m not sure it has a strength. at least for thief. There’s no sustained damage possible via conditions only. at best you could have a mixed approach with some condition damage and some power, leaving neither weak. Trying to be a superspecialist could be a mistake in this game. Hybrids may end up most viable

Well, sadly there is no such thing as hybrid as a thief.
If you take power/vitality/condi amulet, your main ability should be death blossom. The direct dmg you will do with blossom is laughable, so the only way your power can shine is by autoattacking, but you don’t really want to autoattack much as a thief, do you? You will get absolutely stomped.

Also, traits which remove conds pulse every 10secs, you can’t know when it is gonna pulse. And poison, poison lasts 2 sec and requires you to keep autohitting. What are the odds you will apply 2sec poison which requires autohitting when the condi clear pulses? Very low imo.

Thieves aint ment to be doign condition damage I assume. Besides DB that aint really that good, then its just meh. Everyone else is outdoing you condition wise. Not to mention the really limited condition abilities. And that poisons dont stack outright kills the thief condition wise for good.

Basicly you go Knight or Berserker.

…on the other hand Conditions still deal damage when disengaged.

I believe conception wise both Condition and Critical Strikes builds are viable. One has high, immediate burst; the other has damage over time, even when disengaged.

However the maths and scaling between the two is off, with Critical Strikes scaling much better overall than Condition based builds.

I use P/D is a viable condition build. Focusing on might stacking (on dodge steal and stealth) Using (10/0/25/15/20)|

I tease and attack from range with vital shot(1).
My normal combo cloak and dagger(5) (sneak and weakness) sneak attack(1) and dodge out for a total cost of 3 initiative. Can be done every 3 second.

Also my steal may replace cloak and dagger once in a while or when low initiative. It will give me a ton of boon (as well as steal some) apply poison and restore 3 initiative.

replace dodge out with doge in when facing a range caracter.

obtuse.8291:

I’m not sure it has a strength. at least for thief. There’s no sustained damage possible via conditions only. at best you could have a mixed approach with some condition damage and some power, leaving neither weak. Trying to be a superspecialist could be a mistake in this game. Hybrids may end up most viable

On point one yes you can run a condition build and get away with it but most people dont see it. P/D can dole damage if your willing to work for it and figure the ins and out (still need dd off set to catch runners but it is all good) If they choose to toe to toe with you to speak between all the blinds stealths and bleeds it gets a little funny.

You may be right hybrids may end up on top but as of right now few hybrid builds seem viable anyplace other than PvE cause you end u kittening yourself. However in the future who knows I think possibly the balanced approach may come out on top because kitten of right now all I see is glass cannon after glass cannon.

Isabis.9561:

Well, I can’t find a single reason why would anyone take condi thief over power thief right now.?

I do very well as a condition thief in WvW. I very rarely lose a 1v1 and I am constantly engaging groups on my own, killing one or two and then getting out if it gets too crazy. Last night I was engaging a group of 5 or so and killing them one by one. They were dying because I was constantly reapplying my bleeds (P/D) and using stealth every chance I could. They couldn’t keep up with condition removal. This is with all blues, nothing fancy.

I believe half of the problem that many are facing is that they trait themselves to be a one-trick pony and then get all upset that they don’t have any survivability when things go south.

I guess my answer to your question/comment would be survivability. If you trait heavy into shadow arts and acrobatics you get a ton of toughness and vitality along with healing. Most just want to trait for power and crit and run glass cannon builds.

Dee Jay.2460:

…on the other hand Conditions still deal damage when disengaged.

Logical failure, DOT abilities taking time to apply their damage is not an advantage.

If i deal 10k damage immediately, and you apply 10k damage worth of bleeds, and we both run away, the fact that you are ‘still doing damage while disengaged’ is not something to be happy about.

You would assume that because condition damage has the disadvantage of taking time to apply, it would be tuned so it deals more total damage over time in the above situation, to offset the lack of any burst potential. Except it isn’t, and it doesn’t.

With a full Condition Damage build your bleeds will tick for 100-120. DB applies 3 stacks for 10 seconds, that’s 3000-3600 damage per DB, plus a pitiful amount of direct damage taking it to a little over 4k total. Over 10 seconds, assuming no condition removal. For 5 initiative.

Alternatively, you can Pistol Whip in a crit/power build for 5 initiative, and deal 9k+ damage immediately, and that damage is not removable. You can Shortbow cluster for 3 initiative and do more damage immediately than a DB, without even accounting for the bleed. You can CnD>Backstab for over 10k damage easily for a similar cost.

Not only that, the Power/Crit build keeps its damage advantage across every ability or weapon that you may wish to use. A Condition build can stack Condition Damage across every piece of gear and all it gets out of that is a kitten poor Deathblossom that barely competes with the autoattack damage of a Zerker, and every other ability on your bar including your secondary weapon is kittened. You are kittened. Condition Damage is a wasted stat.

Bleed abilities themselves can be useful in situations where you are undergeared or have minimal damage stats due to wearing some crazy survivability kit for godknows what reason. They are useful in those situations precisely because bleeds scale horribly – they are mediocre when you’re fully geared for Condition Damage, and they’re still mediocre when you have no Condition Damage at all. As such, if you find yourself with few damage stats of any description, then you might as well throw some bleeds.

And that’s the only scenario where they are ever competitive with their direct damage alternatives.

obtuse.8291:

I’m not sure it has a strength. at least for thief. There’s no sustained damage possible via conditions only. at best you could have a mixed approach with some condition damage and some power, leaving neither weak. Trying to be a superspecialist could be a mistake in this game. Hybrids may end up most viable

I also build for the Hybrid approach. Focusing/forgoing one and the other seems like handicapping myself, I’d rather do decent at both and work to synergize them. When I say Hybrid I’m not mixing Berzerker’s with Carrion or anything – but if I can get +Condi through a traitline or that Exotic/Rare that isn’t QUITE what I wanted, I don’t knock it. A boost is a boost.

There’s a lot of back and forth between Dagger Thieves about Death Blossom being useless to a Seeker/Backstab build, but I’m not clear on why you wouldn’t want to pack it all – get your bleeds going, then lay into them when you can to keep the pressure up. Looking at the Traits and how it’s possibly to get a decent spread instead of going heavy into one or two traitlines, I think that’s ANet’s intent.

I may be wrong, though. The game is still young, and it looks like they’re still figuring things out.

Isabis.9561:

obtuse.8291:

I’m not sure it has a strength. at least for thief. There’s no sustained damage possible via conditions only. at best you could have a mixed approach with some condition damage and some power, leaving neither weak. Trying to be a superspecialist could be a mistake in this game. Hybrids may end up most viable

Well, sadly there is no such thing as hybrid as a thief.
If you take power/vitality/condi amulet, your main ability should be death blossom. The direct dmg you will do with blossom is laughable, so the only way your power can shine is by autoattacking, but you don’t really want to autoattack much as a thief, do you? You will get absolutely stomped.

Also, traits which remove conds pulse every 10secs, you can’t know when it is gonna pulse. And poison, poison lasts 2 sec and requires you to keep autohitting. What are the odds you will apply 2sec poison which requires autohitting when the condi clear pulses? Very low imo.

Your Lotus Strike is a 2sec Poison. Don’t forget that you have Spider Venom which is 7sec, 5 strike debuff that will last up to 30. With Lotus strike you can keep it applied. You also have Skale Venom which is about 20 sec w/ Vulnerability and Weakness. Literally “Pick your poison”, you can maintain certain condition as you wish.

As for the argument of Condition based Theives. I think this goes back to your counter base and your play style. Regardless of the Glass Canon “Infiltrator” Build, to the Tough “Bruiser” build. Also, Pistols only have 3sec bleed effects, so there dmg will happen quite faster than the “3.6k” from DB (12sec). Along with that If you are doing DB stacks → Stealth → Sneak Attack. You can throw in trash debuffs with Body Shots.

All in all, its how you utilize your skills and how you prefer to play. Kitten, kittened, or not.

TeoH.2098:

Alternatively, you can Pistol Whip in a crit/power build for 5 initiative, and deal 9k+ damage immediately, and that damage is not removable. You can Shortbow cluster for 3 initiative and do more damage immediately than a DB, without even accounting for the bleed. You can CnD>Backstab for over 10k damage easily for a similar cost.

The advantage from going condition is that you dont have to sacrifice your sustain to get that damage, where as to get anything reasonable with PW/BS you have to build glass cannon and you likely also have to use up util slots to make them viable.

Condition builds allow you to be much more evasive and stick around a lot longer, in addition, PW builds rely exclusively on PW landing to do damage, stun breaks or a dodge mean you do 0 damage.

TeoH.2098:

Not only that, the Power/Crit build keeps its damage advantage across every ability or weapon that you may wish to use. A Condition build can stack Condition Damage across every piece of gear and all it gets out of that is a kitten poor Deathblossom that barely competes with the autoattack damage of a Zerker, and every other ability on your bar including your secondary weapon is kittened. You are kittened. Condition Damage is a wasted stat.

I run condition and dont run D/D. Think outside the box. I roll PW/Berserker thieves all day long because they all have the sustain of cabbage.

TeoH.2098:

Bleed abilities themselves can be useful in situations where you are undergeared or have minimal damage stats due to wearing some crazy survivability kit for godknows what reason.

Because it allows me to kill anything and everything I come across, while holding cap points. Also you aren’t undergeared in structed.

TeoH.2098:

And that’s the only scenario where they are ever competitive with their direct damage alternatives.

I respectfully disagree.

Condition builds are spectacular. If you stack runes and sigils appropriatly, your blossom deals 4500+. Throw in Caltrops and a Poison. You can work groups in PvE and PvP. And condition spec can also solo all the PvP Npc’s the easiest.

My Conditon build you use deadly arts and trickery.. like you’re supposed to. Crit isnt needed. Dodge DoT Win.

S/D’s biggest problem is that it relies on other abilities to make PW 100% effective. You’re either Scorpion Wiring someone, Infiltrator’s Striking someone or using Haste. Haste seems to be the most popular choice. It’s an expensive toolset to use to get the same damage that you could get cheaper and easier with any of the other toolsets.

Can it work? Yes. But it’s the most situational of all our toolsets.

Paranoid.9542:

to get anything reasonable with PW/BS you have to build glass cannon and you likely also have to use up util slots to make them viable.

No that’s just what every genius on the forum tells you to build because they like seeing big numbers. Did you think that ‘9k’ was the damage a pistol whip did in a full glass cannon build with utility cooldowns? Christ no, try 14-15k. My numbers are conservative precisely because i usually run a balanced build with a decent amount of Vitality and Toughness.

Mix Invader / Valkyrie and Berzerker gear, run points in Acrobatics for better endurance and some health. You can push 9k Pistol whips with 18k health and 2.3k armour in crafted gear. Even if you want to go tankier than that, the gap in damage is so huge that it won’t change the comparison.

Hell i don’t even use Pistol Whip, i used it as a comparison because it also happens to cost 5 initiative. I run D/D backstab / Shortbow with a fairly squishy gear setup (16k life 2.1k armour) that still survives fine through a combination of stealth and lots of available endurance due to 25 points in Acrobatics. I backstab for 6-10k without using any utility slots. The numbers are so far away from the damage of Condition builds that it seems silly to have to compare them.

Paranoid.9542:

I run condition and dont run D/D. Think outside the box. I roll PW/Berserker thieves all day long because they all have the sustain of cabbage.

Think outside the box? I’m sorry but you are not the first Thief in GW2 to use a pistol in their main hand. Sneak Attack applies 5 stacks for 4 ticks, which is around 2400 damage. If you have talented and geared into increased duration it’s possible to get 6 ticks out of it, taking it to about 3600 damage again, in an optimal scenario. Plus around 1k for the direct damage.

The numbers are easily calculated and compared, and they fall short. They fall short even on the abilities that benefit significantly from the Condition Damage stat, and we’re not even comparing every other ability on your bar for both weapons.

Also if they’re useless and you ‘roll them all day long’, why are you arguing that those builds should be kittened out of existance in this thread:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Thiefs-Discussion-Thread-Merged/page/6#post329998

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i look at it like this. power attacks you avoid or use mitigation tools BEFORE you are hit by them. many large hitting power based attacks have tells so you can avoid them.

condition you deal with after its on you. the fact that it ignores armor/toughness is to give it more incentive.

This is part of why people like P/D for thieves for bleeds over deathblossom. less ini intensive, and the bleeds only last a couple seconds or so, making it hard for the defending player to simply remove it when its been applied.

TeoH.2098:

Paranoid.9542:

to get anything reasonable with PW/BS you have to build glass cannon and you likely also have to use up util slots to make them viable.

No that’s just what every genius on the forum tells you to build because they like seeing big numbers. Did you think that ‘9k’ was the damage a pistol whip did in a full glass cannon build with utility cooldowns? Christ no, try 14-15k. My numbers are conservative precisely because i usually run a balanced build with a decent amount of Vitality and Toughness.

Mix Invader / Valkyrie and Berzerker gear, run points in Acrobatics for better endurance and some health. You can push 9k Pistol whips with 18k health and 2.3k armour in crafted gear. Even if you want to go tankier than that, the gap in damage is so huge that it won’t change the comparison.

talking about WvWvW is not a good indicator of anything but your gear level.

Wolfe.3097:

i look at it like this. power attacks you avoid or use mitigation tools BEFORE you are hit by them. many large hitting power based attacks have tells so you can avoid them.

condition you deal with after its on you. the fact that it ignores armor/toughness is to give it more incentive.

This is part of why people like P/D for thieves for bleeds over deathblossom. less ini intensive, and the bleeds only last a couple seconds or so, making it hard for the defending player to simply remove it when its been applied.

You’re acting like pistol attacks can’t be dodged. The pistol shots take as long to cast as CnD, as well as having a travel time. Sneak Attack starts instantly like backstab but then takes a second to complete all 5 hits. Deathblossom is as telegraphed as Heartseeker and costs more initiative. Everything is potentially dodgable before it lands, but only the bleeds are removable after the fact. Even if they weren’t, you are doing less total damage and you’re spreading that damage over several seconds.

Maybe what you’re actually trying to discuss is melee vs ranged rather than Condition vs Power/Crit? You have 2 weapon sets, you’re not limited to one or the other. Unless you build full Condition, and then you’re seriously limited in the range of attacks you can actually deal decent damage with. Pistol damage looks a bit better when compared to the Shortbow…. untill you add more than 1 target, or a pet, or a turret.

Wolfe.3097:

talking about WvWvW is not a good indicator of anything but your gear level.

Yes the difference between Power and Condition is more pronounced in WvWvW – because you have more total stats to play with in exotics, and since direct damage has far better scaling than conditions, it pulls even further ahead from those extra stats. That doesn’t mean you suddenly deal less damage than a pistol bleed in SPvP. Clearly you need a visual aid here:

http://youtu.be/AjqJaWG531U

SPvP gear, 18k life, bonus endurance regen for more dodges. No signet bonuses, no venom bonuses, no cooldowns used other than steal.

Isabis.9561:

One of the main problems with condi vs power builds in pvp is: when you manage to hit your power ability, the dmg is unleashed on the opponent and he can’t do anything to prevent it anymore, but with condi build even if you hit your spell (opponent failed to dodge for example) , your opponent can still almost fully prevent it with condi removal. Even if you hit all your opening Death blossoms and get 9 stacks of bleeds, any player with common sense will cleanse it right away and you are left with mhmm, no initative.
Considering the amount of condi removing abilities/traits (and there is a lot of them) condi build are very unreliable for pvp.
Considering condi ignores toughness, do you think this is a fair exchange?

This is why the DB build fails to be honest. Now in a group scenario it can be ok but honestly it sucks. Thats why I moved to a pistol/dagger where my 1 applies bleeds every time I hit so they can remove but i re-apply for 0 initiative.

Now one thing you have to think about is there are two kinds of power, the power you get from gear and the power that you get from your spec. Do not forget that the power that comes from your spec also increases bleed duration so it is actually MORE effective then going down conditions for bleed. Lots of players overlook that small detail and get 30 in the wrong tree when trying to increase condition damage.

A quick synopsis, bearing in mind I play both pw and ldb builds, and I prefer ldb 100% more.

PWhip

1) PW kitten face with haste, do not kill effectively without.
2) Kiteable, and after your initial steal/burst you are left chasing with an unreliable skill.
3) Good players just use defensive cd’s during the haste/pw and /laugh when you’re out of initiative.
4) Arguably better for taking out pve mobs.

LDB

1) Aoe conditons for group fight. Yes curable but spammable.
2) Much more reliable 1v1 spec, does not rely on your CD’s being up to beat someone of a decent skil level.
3) Mixed with venoms/caltrops (either one or the other), you have more conditions than people can clease. If you rely on ldb as the only conditions you apply then you will struggle.
4) Kills mobs/bosses just as quick as pwhip (well little bit slower but not much).

Yeah condition cleansing is not your friend, but lets be honest, the maximum any one player will carry is 3 full cleanses maximum. Most only 2 full cleanses. You can get people worried after 4 ldb rotations and 3 venoms and used most of their condi cleansers if you’re half clever with venoms. Or use caltrops on guarded a point.

LDB builds counter bunker mediatation guardians prety hard (although they got nerfed yesterday).

LDB builds are really under rated, but tbh they are the most versatile build a thief can use in team fights/solo/mob killing whatever it may be, and you don’t have to rely on utility CD’s to be useful.

I think if poison could stack instead of just resetting timer. Then condition builds could be viable.

Why do bleed stack when poisons dont?

Same as burning in that it only stacks timewise. If poison stacked the dps would just outright be insane combined with bleeds, they’d need to overhaul bleeds completly.

TeoH.2098:

Also if they’re useless and you ‘roll them all day long’, why are you arguing that those builds should be kittened out of existance in this thread:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Thiefs-Discussion-Thread-Merged/page/6#post329998

?

Oop you caught me, I really should hide my posting history better.

I actually get kitten all the time by those thieves man. Or maybe I have no problem facing them but can still see that they have a bit too much?

Condition build pales in comparison to Power build due to

• As mentioned condition removal skill is abundant
• Condition dmg works well with condition duration but is easily countered by condition removal

@teoh

what i was saying is anet specifically said they are not gonna balance classes aroud wvwvw. so using pve gear to show off pvp potential isnt a valid argument.

im not arguing against a buff to condition damage, im just saying it has its place.

yes everything can be dodged, since you know…dodge gives you immunity frames essentially. but some things are easier then others. for instance dodging a 100b warrior charge is easier then dodging a pistol sneak attack.

and while pistol mainhand bleeds do less damage then D/D they are harder to dispel effectively since they can be used more often (less ini cost) and their timer runs out much faster.

You make some good points Teoh. But how does toughness fit into this? If the playerbase suddenly started stacking toughness would that make condition damage more desirable? Personally I really love the feel of pistol/dagger but after reading your posts it seems I am kittening myself somewhat.

Grumwulf.9602:

You make some good points Teoh. But how does toughness fit into this? If the playerbase suddenly started stacking toughness would that make condition damage more desirable? Personally I really love the feel of pistol/dagger but after reading your posts it seems I am kittening myself somewhat.

Firstly, for condition damage abilities to do more effective dps as a Thief than your direct damage, you’re talking about a metric kitten-tonne of Toughness.

Secondly, the meta is actually more likely to swing the other way. Condition Damage is expected to be buffed, Necros probably need some love and they are primarily Condition Damage based, as well being extremely resilient to Condition Damage used against them. Guardian tanky builds with high armour also have excessive condition removal which breaks the assumed counter to them, they are likely to be addressed in some way.

In general, expect builds and classes that focus on Condition Damage to be buffed, and for people to be more concerned about Conditions in future patches. Given that assumption, there’s really no reason why the meta would shift towards more Toughness, infact you may see the opposite.

The key to the death blossom condition build is the evades and the dodges (along with specs to heal when using initiative/add might, etc when dodging).

IMHO, this is just as viable as glass cannon because you have to factor in survivability as well.

Condition Thief would be broken and overpowered beyond your imagination if the Necromancer profession didn’t exist. The Necromancer is the biggest thing that keeps a condition Thief in check, they can consume your conditions for epic heals, turn them in to boons, send them to you etc. Even with this big counter I still love playing my condition Thief

A death blossom thief working with his group is spraying that 4500 (traited) condition damage to three enemies, not one. Since I started playing an AOE conditions thief I am usually at or near the top of the score in sPvP games. And my presence in large battles for a capture point really helps my team. A 14-second application of LDB takes 4500 health off three enemies, and if I manage a stack of three (along with my venom poisons and vulnerablity), thats 13500 hp off each of three enemies through bleeds layered with other conditions.

As I have played the Condition and Power builds with my thief, I enjoy the condition build more at the moment. Using D/D, your main damage will come from Death Blossom, but you also have to add in Caltrops, which can max out your bleed stacks if you are lucky (this is through dodging and your skill choice). Also, you do get evasion on DB, 3 dodges instead of 2, more initiative, and the ability to heal during combat. Oh, and to mention you can use Dagger Storm as your elite skill without getting totally dominated. There are so many options and so I promise you that the answer to this question is in your play style. Both builds are fun, but very different.

Burst Damage: Deals Damage instantly and can’t be countered once applied.

Condition Damage: Can be cleaned but continues doing damage even when disengaged.

Those are the Pros and Cons of Burst vs. Condition damage. None is conceptually better than the other.

wrong ! Burst thief damage can be countered by every class, that was discussed elsewhere many times. That makes glass thief very squishy vs pro player’s. BUT Condition p/d thief can apply bleeds even 120-150dmg per sec plus poisons (heal reduction <—-) very fast and manage 2-3 players without problems.. Necros ? laughing just read thiers traits and skills and think how to counter it and btw remove your own bleeds when you see your life is fading… The only class which can make real deal vs good p/d thief is ele d/d tank buid with many cond removal and superior aoe casting.. nothing else

Good necros destroy condition thieves.

Also DD/SB outperforms P/D in sPvP/tPvP. For WvW I guess P/D is the better option.

Check the video in this thread if you want an example of how a condition thief can perform in tPvP: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Video-Condition-thief-solo-queue-tPvP/first#post957564