Guild Wars 2

QUESTION for ANET/PLAYERS:

S/P or S/D or D/D D/P build …..analyze init regen buff vs init gain nerf on the dec 10th patch. will it equate the same? better? worse? im going to guess worse …. as im writing this i have no idea how this will come out so… here goes.

Heal/Utilities/Elites

Withdraw – Healing —-————- 15s CD
Infiltrators Signet – Tele 900 range CD + 2 init —-——-24s CD
Signet of Agility- Remove 1 condi per ally & Renew energy 2 init————-24s CD
Shadowstep – Tele 1200 range Tele back -3 condis —————— 50s CD
Basilisk Venom- 1.5s Channel 1.5sec stone to target on hit —-————kitten CD

Traits init boost as of PRE DEC 10th:

+2 init per stealth (32 init per 60 secs)
+2 init per signet 20% cooldown reduction on signets (9 init per 60 secs)
+3 init per steal (roughly 6 init per 60 secs)
+1 init per crit per 1 sec (CD) (roughly 16 init per 60 secs)
+2 init per 10 secs (12 init per 60 secs)
+.75 init per second base regen (45 init per 60 secs)
TOTAL= 120 initiative gained per an average 60 sec fight

Traits init boost as of POST DEC 10th:

+2 init per stealth (20 init per 10 secs)
+1 init per signet 20% cooldown reduction on signets (4 init per 60 secs)
+2 init per steal (roughly 4 init per 60 secs)
+1 init per crit per 5 sec (CD) (roughly 8 init per 60 secs)
+1 init per 10 secs (6 init per 60 secs)
+1 init per sec base regen (60 init per 60 secs

TOTAL= 102 initiative gained per an average 60 sec fight

TOTAL DIFFERENCE = 18 init per 60 secs

THE CHANGES are basically -3 init per 10 seconds for thief POST dec 10th.
If we pretend that nobody is stacking stealth for extra init….then its only roughly about a difference of -1 init per 10 secs loss.

I fail to see how this is beneficial or at least even?

Also to point out….the best part about the way it is now (pre dec 10th) is that you have the initiative on command. you dont have to wait for it. and if u do wait for it and dont use it/fail then you are left with less init anyway which makes it more risky and beneficial to enemies.

This entire assertion is…extremely wrong…in a bunch of places.

First of all, your base comparison is using a 0/20/10/20/5 spec (with 15 leftover points), with every optional initiative gain trait slotted. It’s an awful spec that would never work. Your conclusion is based on the same spec, and is thus completely wrong.

Secondly, your post Dec 10th Opportunist math looks off (you should realistically be getting 10-12 init per minute)

Then there’s just a bunch of other “math” that you just sloppily assert without giving us any idea how you got to your end numbers.

It also relies on using abilities like steal and signets the second its up regardless of situation, which is unrealistic to put it mildly.

This post is probably better left ignored until you clean up pretty much everything in it, otherwise you’re going to be spreading blatant misinformation.

meh…they will keep coloring it a s a buff untill nobody plays a thief except for few stubborn people

All this number-crunching about Initiative regeneration is worthless.

You have to play-test it to really evaluate the difference.

And then there’s things you can’t predict. Like how much more we’ll be able to use stuff like Infiltrator’s Arrow and other Shortbow skills.

And then there’s the fact that most maths is based on the idea that we are attacking a target constantly, which is almost never the case, not even in PvE.

I think this patch, while it’s going to nerf a few builds like Dagger/Pistol, is going to be an overall buff for Thieves. I just don’t think it’s a good buff because it’s not making the class more engaging to play. Instead it’s making the entire Initiative system much more forgiving.

evilapprentice.6379:

This entire assertion is…extremely wrong…in a bunch of places.

First of all, your base comparison is using a 0/20/10/20/5 spec (with 15 leftover points), with every optional initiative gain trait slotted. It’s an awful spec that would never work. Your conclusion is based on the same spec, and is thus completely wrong.

Secondly, your post Dec 10th Opportunist math looks off (you should realistically be getting 10-12 init per minute)

Then there’s just a bunch of other “math” that you just sloppily assert without giving us any idea how you got to your end numbers.

It also relies on using abilities like steal and signets the second its up regardless of situation, which is unrealistic to put it mildly.

This post is probably better left ignored until you clean up pretty much everything in it, otherwise you’re going to be spreading blatant misinformation.

perhaps i should have explained how i got my numbers. but the math and all is spot on. i play thief. daudle a lil on a few others but 95% of my time is thief. 3 legendaries all the titles blah blah blah…and one of the best duelers on my server. (not bragging just pointing out im not a new player).

8 init under opportunist is quite realistic for post dec 10th. idk what YOU are thinking but, but let me take a guess. to get 10-12 init per minute under that you would literally have to be attacking at EVERY 5 sec mark AND hit it on the dot without missing. most thieves… if they are good dip in dip out while fighting. seriously :P they dont just attack the whole time. thats why i said 8 init. maybe 9 but hard to say. def not 10-12. thats just being perfect. i put the other skills like signets on to use everytime they pop. and then average it as a per 60 second ratio. the only guess work in here is the init on stealth and the init on crit. you arent in battle every moment and ur not using invis 5x a second. i was conservative on the first init on stealth to be fair and realistic by trying to exclude the 5 2 2 2 combo as that is just irrelevant. doesnt change dmg taken or given and is an abuse of mechanic. i did try add in the times where you CND and then use hide in shadows and get another 2 etc but nothing abusive. its quite a conservative number, both the infusion and opportunist. so realistically its a MUCH larger gap.

if you like we can go pick a popular yishis or jumper video so we cant say its biased by using one of my own…then count.

People like you assume waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much brah. lol. seriously its not a good build. its just throwing a bunch of traits out there that are changed and comparing it to what is going to happen. if you take a REAL build youwont have all these extra init boosters and THEN what happens is the gap is probably another 33% larger which means its an EVEN BIGGER NERF. 2.25 init on 10 secs is the buff. -1 on steal -1 on quick recovery right there make it even. infusion of shadow and opportunist set it INCREDIBLY into the negative. just looking at it from a non experimental perspective. .75 init per sec to 1.0 init per sec is a 2.25 gain of init on 10 secs which is knocked down to a .25 gain from the loss of quick recovery and kleptomaniac.

I obviously didnt make this post for you. Its for people whom play thieves as a die hard and know thief inside and out. Nobody can say it accurately but i bet its pretty kitten ed close. if not no point in having you nag just put a bet out there ill go grab a video and show you. go look or better yet play a thief. they dont attack every second. to be honest its actually more time NOT attacking than attacking…considerably. a good thief is patient, calculating, precise, vicious and not too proud to know when to draw back.

peace out cubscout

Dee Jay.2460:

All this number-crunching about Initiative regeneration is worthless.

You have to play-test it to really evaluate the difference.

And then there’s things you can’t predict. Like how much more we’ll be able to use stuff like Infiltrator’s Arrow and other Shortbow skills.

And then there’s the fact that most maths is based on the idea that we are attacking a target constantly, which is almost never the case, not even in PvE.

I think this patch, while it’s going to nerf a few builds like Dagger/Pistol, is going to be an overall buff for Thieves. I just don’t think it’s a good buff because it’s not making the class more engaging to play. Instead it’s making the entire Initiative system much more forgiving.

u will be able to use it less. its a nerf. :P period. no matter how you look at it. the ONLY build that gets buffed is p/d and arguable d/d bleed.

the nerf on klepto and quick recovery already counterbalance our regen buff , that is if yhou are playing a build that uses them. opportunist nerf alone sets the total init into the negative. either way its no bueno amigo.

if u look at it like “well im gangsta and i dont use any of those init gains” then ur not a smart player in a burst build OR stubborn but ill play…..

2.25 init per 10 secs extra is the regen buff we are getting. aka 1ini per 1 sec from .75/sec. costs 6 init for IA . you get a total of 13.5 extra init over 1 min which means you get 2 extra IA in 1 minute. not bad. should have kept at 1 per 1 sec from beta test i think but thats me.

i think p/d players like me (bc its the best overall build if spec’d n played right) will enjoy the change. but i do like playing dagger main and sometims sword main as i spent the time to get the legendaries for every thief weap. this is just going to keep the thief headed into a pidgeonhole build playstyle. the IR nerf is the worst. and opportunist is the 2nd worst. idk what anet is thinkin. maybe they are slowly getting rid of thief.

If you’re only looking at it from a “the maximum amount of available initiative is reduced” perspective, then yes, you would most likely perceive it as a nerf. Fact of the matter is that most thieves are not currently using a build maximized around initiative because we do not need that much initiative and building that way would leave you very weak in other areas.

I tend to think of it as a rebalancing; we’ll probably still need to take initiative traits, but we aren’t as dependent upon them either for reaching a “comfortable” amount of initiative.

I don’t totally agree with the Dec 10 init change because I believe that it should scale based on how much init are missing, but I believe it’s a step in the right direction. And if Anet wants the init regen to be flat, then it should be around 1.25 init/s

Travlane.5948:

Snip

Yes, I’m sure most X/D specs are using stealth 16 times per minute (the only way to get +32 initiative out of it).

It’s also good practice to use your signets ASAP so you can get the most initiative out of them, rather than when you actually need them for the active ability. Same with steal – hit it the second you can, because the initiative gain is much more important. than using it tactically.

What you’ve done is compare max possible initiative regen pre and post Dec 10th, with absolutely no regard to spec or effectiveness of playstyle. Playing in a manner that would net you 120 init per minute would be a joke – you’d be hammering skills the second they were up, regardless of whether or not they were useful, just to generate initiative, and running a pretty awful spec (again, just for max init regen). You’ve also chosen to clock Infusion of Shadow at a whopping +32 init, when 3 of the 4 specs you listed above couldn’t possibly stealth that much in 60 seconds in any realistic situation (1 can’t stealth via weapon skills At all!)

Your entire synopsis is skewed, and the conclusion you drew from it incorrect and pointless. Please don’t spread misinformation, thieves have enough problems as it is.

I’m reserving judgment on this change until I see it in action. A higher base regen has the capacity to help certain builds out a lot while doing very little or even being a small nerf to other builds. But, to be honest, the former excites me more than the latter bothers me.

That said, my biggest issues are things that remain unaddressed in any way by this patch – MH Pistol and Stealth-as-defense or attrition in general.

Meh, I run p/d and have other level 80s to play. Ini isnt an issue for my spec unless I try to CnD while out of range/blinded 3 times in a row. Buuuuut, it would have just loved leap being removed from HS.

I’m more worried about the vigor changes. We will see when it goes live. It may force you change your play style, pls dont cry a river over it.

Warkupo.1025:

If you’re only looking at it from a “the maximum amount of available initiative is reduced” perspective, then yes, you would most likely perceive it as a nerf. Fact of the matter is that most thieves are not currently using a build maximized around initiative because we do not need that much initiative and building that way would leave you very weak in other areas.

I tend to think of it as a rebalancing; we’ll probably still need to take initiative traits, but we aren’t as dependent upon them either for reaching a “comfortable” amount of initiative.

i hear you. but they nerfed ALL the init gain traits/skills other than RFI….. so i was comparing the gains vs the nerfs to show that its a nerf. plain and simple. has nothign to do with build or maximum this or that. just the fact of what they are taking vs what they are giving. common burst build is 25 30 0 0 15. thats 3 init for klepto and HUGE hit on opportunist. klepto alone is a break even if u think about it. its only 1 less and you get 2.25 extra regen over 10 secs. but having init burst gain on command is what theives want. we get it quick we burn it quick. extra regen is nice. but id rather have .5 regen and 4 init on steal and 3 init on signets. u know what i mean? we will have to risk to gain. put it this way. get rid of ALL the initative gain skills and put the regen at 1.5 init per 1 second. thats about even considering the nerfs now coming. 1.5 init per second with no init boosts would almost kill the class. we wouldtn have burst. or a 2nd weaponset and we also would have to go slow using skills. bc when we are out. we have no safety net. know what i mean? dont take what i was showing you above literally. just as a “taken” and “given” comparison. even tho the def said it was a “buff” and “small change” on skills. so i wanted to point out it was quite the contrary u know?

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I don’t totally agree with the Dec 10 init change because I believe that it should scale based on how much init are missing, but I believe it’s a step in the right direction. And if Anet wants the init regen to be flat, then it should be around 1.25 init/s

that is somethign i have NOT thought about. i like that. under 4 init it should be 1.5 per sec. above 8 init it should be .75 per sec. at over 12 its .5 and under 2 its 2 per sec or somethign. thats not a bad idea! have you put it in the suggestions area?

evilapprentice.6379:

Travlane.5948:

Snip

Yes, I’m sure most X/D specs are using stealth 16 times per minute (the only way to get +32 initiative out of it).

It’s also good practice to use your signets ASAP so you can get the most initiative out of them, rather than when you actually need them for the active ability. Same with steal – hit it the second you can, because the initiative gain is much more important. than using it tactically.

What you’ve done is compare max possible initiative regen pre and post Dec 10th, with absolutely no regard to spec or effectiveness of playstyle. Playing in a manner that would net you 120 init per minute would be a joke – you’d be hammering skills the second they were up, regardless of whether or not they were useful, just to generate initiative, and running a pretty awful spec (again, just for max init regen). You’ve also chosen to clock Infusion of Shadow at a whopping +32 init, when 3 of the 4 specs you listed above couldn’t possibly stealth that much in 60 seconds in any realistic situation (1 can’t stealth via weapon skills At all!)

Your entire synopsis is skewed, and the conclusion you drew from it incorrect and pointless. Please don’t spread misinformation, thieves have enough problems as it is.

read my response to the other gentlemens comments. kinda answers yours too. i compared what is TAKEN with what is GIVEN to us by anet. jon peters said it was a buff and that other skills/traits were a “small change” so i wanted to point out quite the contrary. even with a 25 30 0 0 15 or 0 30 20 20 0 build…. both would be getting less initative per minute by alot. doesnt have to be a full init burst build like was posted in original post. it was just showing you the gains vs losses in contrast to what anet said. its a pretty big nerf. having the burst init gain on hand/command is nice. look at it like i told him. nerf ALL skills that boost init. then just balance it by giving a 1.25 or even to be generous a 1.5 init per sec regen buff. you are telling me thats comparable to having the burst capability of initiative? when you cloack and dagger once then backstab then HS HS you are out of INIT ….. whats the next thing you do….usually steal or invis right? utility or w.e. which gains you 5 init plus 1 for the chanel time. a total of 6 init instantly. now….in the suggested buff i said… u would only get 1.5 over that same time. which leaves you VERY vulnerable. to b honest…id rather go down to .5 init per second and gain +1 initi on every init skill. but that would be OP right? of course….so its the exact opposite of OP which is underpowered going in the other direction. hence this willbe a huge nerf …other than to PD.

regardless p/d is still inefficiant when up against d/p, even with the nerf, only way you can get a hit in is if you use cnd and get a hit off when hes done using his BP(skill 5), even then your still crappy and theyll just remove your conditions…again by popping outta stealth. if they want to perma stealth theyd be eating initiative….so lets hope p/d is getting a buff by making others get a nerf…i still say venomshare builds should give not only counters of our venoms to others, but copy our condition based stats + condition duration to the people we gave em to…i mean why kill with my venoms and when i give MY venoms to an ally should they only make what they hit SNEEZE!?

The change is supposed to support thiefs so they dont have to trait for ini regen necessarily and lower ini from stealth to nerf D/P mainly as far as i know.

Travlane.5948:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I don’t totally agree with the Dec 10 init change because I believe that it should scale based on how much init are missing, but I believe it’s a step in the right direction. And if Anet wants the init regen to be flat, then it should be around 1.25 init/s

that is somethign i have NOT thought about. i like that. under 4 init it should be 1.5 per sec. above 8 init it should be .75 per sec. at over 12 its .5 and under 2 its 2 per sec or somethign. thats not a bad idea! have you put it in the suggestions area?

No, but here’s the original post I made.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-Balance-The-Real-Story/first#post3158010

Travlane.5948:

i compared what is TAKEN with what is GIVEN to us by anet. jon peters said it was a buff and that other skills/traits were a “small change” so i wanted to point out quite the contrary.

I think your comparison doesn’t stand up to how most specs actually play. We’re not fighting a stationary target dummy, stealthing and hitting regen signets every single cooldown. The objective of thief play is to not to maximize initiative regeneration, but to kill things and take their stuff. The initiative is a tool, not the actual goal.

When I look at the specs I run (usually D/D, sometimes S/D and occasionally P/D condition build), every one of these will have slightly more initiative after 12/10 than now. Only D/P permastealth builds really take an initiative hit. Well, P/P gets nerfed too, but that’s just beating a dead horse at this point.

Lithril Ashwalker.6230:

regardless p/d is still inefficiant when up against d/p, even with the nerf, only way you can get a hit in is if you use cnd and get a hit off when hes done using his BP(skill 5), even then your still crappy and theyll just remove your conditions…again by popping outta stealth. if they want to perma stealth theyd be eating initiative….so lets hope p/d is getting a buff by making others get a nerf…i still say venomshare builds should give not only counters of our venoms to others, but copy our condition based stats + condition duration to the people we gave em to…i mean why kill with my venoms and when i give MY venoms to an ally should they only make what they hit SNEEZE!?

not true. i win about 85% of all p/d vs d/p matches excluding draws from the hiding type.

ill agree if u r talking about that weak cookie cutter build you see all over. but real p/d players are much better than that trash

Oghier.7419:

Travlane.5948:

i compared what is TAKEN with what is GIVEN to us by anet. jon peters said it was a buff and that other skills/traits were a “small change” so i wanted to point out quite the contrary.

I think your comparison doesn’t stand up to how most specs actually play. We’re not fighting a stationary target dummy, stealthing and hitting regen signets every single cooldown. The objective of thief play is to not to maximize initiative regeneration, but to kill things and take their stuff. The initiative is a tool, not the actual goal.

When I look at the specs I run (usually D/D, sometimes S/D and occasionally P/D condition build), every one of these will have slightly more initiative after 12/10 than now. Only D/P permastealth builds really take an initiative hit. Well, P/P gets nerfed too, but that’s just beating a dead horse at this point.

p/d and d/d bleeds will. not the others.

and yes i think the example i gave is quite realistic. even if u dont i used the same numbers hits targets blah blah blah for each. so go ahead and cut each in half it doesnt matter. the before is still more init than after the dec 10th patch. no matter how you look at it (unless you are d/p or d/d bleeds) its a pretty big nerf.

If you think this isnt a nerf…than do the math and pretend you have 0 init gain but have 1.25 initiative per second regen. thats about the trade off if u dropped all init gain traits. now having 1.25 init per sec (lets pretend its equal) is dangerous bc if you usetoo much initiative you still have to wait. you have no way of boosting extra initiativewhen you need it. you need to boost init on command bc certain occaisons call for it. if you have 1.25 int per sec regen and no boost…u will win VERY VERY few fights. this turns a thief into a very robotic character where you know 1 big attack is coming every 6-7 seconds and after that you know he has to wait bc he cant go low on init. taking the control away from a thief is bad news for the players andclass.

Anet failed to do the math on what Opportunist brings. Cleaving multiple targets and faster/more attacks from haste and thieves guild would proc lots of Opportunists. So yeah PVE thieves – where it’s easy to be attacking every second – who used the Quick Recov trait are getting a nerf when using D/D, and a huge nerf in AOE situations. It’s simple math I can’t believe Anet think they are buffing initiative. GG.

yeah…… PVE is the ONLY time where the opportunist really can POTENTIALLY give you 1 init per second. in wvw id say its more like 1 init per 5 seconds as is. we are not attacking in wvw all the time. and our shortbow alone has about 2-3 seconds (depends on distance) between first arrow hitting and the 2nd arrow hitting the same target. pfft. its sooo slooow. 1 sec internal cooldown is fine.

would rather see 0 init given on signets and have them give a diff effect

Increasing per sec ini regen and nerfing active ini traits is direction to passive gameplay which killed the joy of pvp some time ago.

random numbers bring to wrong assertions.

daendur. only 2 traits were guessed on from above. the rest are accurate. andthe ones that WERE guessed on were close to realistic and doesnt matter bc they are even number hit on both