Guild Wars 2

I want to share my vision for a redesign of the Thief profession. Based on my 750+ hours on my Thief and overwhelming forum feedback it is clear that a lot of Thief mechanics don’t mesh well within the larger context of the game.

The goal of this redesign is to present Thief players with:

a) more interesting choices in combat
b) a system that rewards resource management over spamming
c) a more universal Stealth system usable by all builds and weapons.

The core of this redesign focuses on the replacement of Steal and reworking of Initiative.

1. Initiative

On a functional level, Initiative will remain unchanged. It will still be used as a resource for weapon abilities just like currently. However it will also be used as a resource for Stealth. As such, it limits how much Stealth can be used within a certain window and forces the player to chose between offensive pressure and stealth.

Also instead of regenerating at a steady rate of 1 point every 1.33 seconds Initiative will replenish faster, the more you have and slower, the less you have. As a guide line, Initiative should replenish as follows:

1 point every 1.0 second when above 7 Initiative
1 point every 1.5 seconds when above 4 Initiative
1 point every 2.0 seconds when below 5 Initiative

The goal here is to discourage ability spam without removing the choice. Players will be rewarded if they manage the resource well and starved if they dump it too quickly. Other MMOs have used similar resource systems to great effect.

Note: Some Initiative replenishing traits and abilities would require revision with such a system.

2. Stealth/Steal

Steal is no longer a base-line profession ability. Instead it replaces the current Infiltrator’s Singet and becomes a standard utility ability. Instead Stealth becomes the new profession ability. It would work like the current Blinding Tuft or Bliding Feathers you steal from mobs and Thieves. It would stealth you immediately until your exited Stealth either by attacking or pressing F1 again.

However unlike other Stealth abilities this Stealth would consume Initiative at a rate of 1 per second. This puts a cap on how much a Thief can stealth and forces him to chose between offensive ability use or defensive stealthing. For balance reasons Stealth would need a minimum duration of 2 seconds so people cant just dip in and out of Stealth constantly. The Revealed mechanic would function as usual.

-This Stealth mechanic would also require the conceptual revision of all other Stealth abilities. Cloak and Dagger for example would need to be altered (and lose it’s stealth component) while Shadow Refuge could remain largely unchanged.

-Initiative costs for weapon abilities would also need revision since Initiative is now required for both Stealth and Damage. Most Initiative costs would be lowered (except for Heartseeker).

-The Shadow Arts tree would need revision too as a few traits grant initiative while in Stealth. This would be imbalanced with the new system. Instead you could have traits that reduced the rate at which Initiative is consumed in Stealth.
___________________________________________________________

While we’re fixing the Thief there are a number of abilities that require revision:

1. Cloak and Dagger could provide a stun or daze instead of stealth.
2. Heartseeker is too effective and too easy to use. Limiting the range would be a good start.
3. Body Shot is just downright bad. Consider giving it a Snare similar to Disabling Shot. It would help the viability of Pistol/Pistol too.
4. Dancing Dagger is too expensive since the nerf.
5. Flanking Strike needs to work more reliably and could be more interesting (maybe allow us to Steal a boon)
6. Shadow Strike could use some improvements as well although it’s not fundamentally flawed.

Aside from major balancing issues regarding Stealth and Damage in PvP, Thieves have problems in other areas, most notably PvE where they offer comparatively little in terms of group support and utility as well as poor survivability (especially for a melee profession).

Traps offer real opportunity for improvements in this area. They could provide more long-term combo fields as well as useful effects. For example, maybe if traps didn’t trigger just once, but could trigger every 5 seconds or so a lot of their utility would become desirable.

But combo fields and multi-proccs are just some ideas on how to make traps more interesting.

I believe these changes, if rolled out and balanced correctly, would enhance the Thief profession making it both more engaging to play and also more interesting to play against.

This is probably the worst idea for thiefs I have heard yet, and remember, people have suggested removing thiefs from the game.

^
Lol this guy gets it

Oh yea i forgot to add another argument against that cleaver notion that theifs offer no support “Venom sharing” a 5 second coordinated stun sure isnt gonna be supportive at all

I think we’re playing a different game.

Mithos.9572:

This is probably the worst idea for thiefs I have heard yet, and remember, people have suggested removing thiefs from the game.

I need a like button for this
no not a “good answer” button

Dee Jay.2460:

However unlike other Stealth abilities this Stealth would consume Initiative at a rate of 1 per second. This puts a cap on how much a Thief can stealth and forces him to chose between offensive ability use or defensive stealthing. For balance reasons Stealth would need a minimum duration of 2 seconds so people cant just dip in and out of Stealth constantly. The Revealed mechanic would function as usual.

This would break everything so, so hard. Everything is currently balanced around it being somewhat of a resource requirement to get into stealth, whether it be the 6-ini C&D, burning Steal, burning a utility, burning a heal, etc. Being able to just tap F1 and then execute a from-stealth attack for a token 1 initiative stealth cost would be crazy. At least P/D has to dodge in right now for reliable stealth, say goodbye to that.

Although I guess we’d have totally lost Steal for it, unfortunate since it is quite a good profession mechanic in most situations.

I wonder if he will reply back

Orrrrr
GW2 could be brave enough to remove the entire horrible ‘stealth/invisible’ burst/assassin/troll gameplay mechanic and build the thief around the idea of constant evades, dazes, interrupts, blinds, etc.

You know, dirty fighting and tricks. Like a thief.

Not an invisible 1-shotter of invisible teleporting bleed stacking doom and ganking. Like the predator. Or some terrible korean super ninja villain without subtitles and dubbed by daffy duck.

Mechanix.5719:

I wonder if he will reply back

Sure I will, but I will also allow myself to disregard what most people said because they clearly don’t grasp what constitutes good game-design.

Good game design enforces choice. Not only in the most obvious fashion like what path you want to take through a Dungeon but in every aspect and every moment of game-play.

What stats do you want on your gear? What do I want to do? Where shall I fight? Where shall I move? What ability shall I use?

Currently Initiative fails at this because it gives the player a choice between Damage and Damage. Most builds already limited the number of viable weapons skills and Initiative really doesn’t force interesting choices. Hence we are prone to spam.

With my proposal players would be making active choices about how to spend their Initiative. It’s far more compelling than simply Death Blossom, Death Blossom, Death Blossom .

Dee Jay.2460:

Mechanix.5719:

I wonder if he will reply back

Sure I will, but I will also allow myself to disregard what most people said because they clearly don’t grasp what constitutes good game-design.

Good game design enforces choice. Not only in the most obvious fashion like what path you want to take through a Dungeon but in every aspect and every moment of game-play.

What stats do you want on your gear? What do I want to do? Where shall I fight? Where shall I move? What ability shall I use?

Currently Initiative fails at this because it gives the player a choice between Damage and Damage. Most builds already limited the number of viable weapons skills and Initiative really doesn’t force interesting choices. Hence we are prone to spam.

With my proposal players would be making active choices about how to spend their Initiative. It’s far more compelling than simply Death Blossom, Death Blossom, Death Blossom .

No one uses DB DB DB…

Your idea simply won’t work for one reason:

-stealth on demand for next to no cost, with NO requirements attached to it (other then 2 initiative while FORCED to be in stealth).

Currently CnD does this for us at triple the initiative, WITH a component where we are REQUIRED to hit a target, as well as REQUIRING us to have a dagger in our offhand. While I would LOVE this idea, you have to think about what these changes would do to the class:

-BS builds would do a little less burst (I’m assuming mug would go away, and steal would become some useless utility), which is fine, but it would gain FREE stealth retreats/retries on demand, as well as either a daze or stun from the reworked CnD.

-P/D would get an overpowering buff, since they no longer need to get into melee to do damage/pressure, and can stack bleeds from 900 range away with ease (we could also go P/P and get an extra blind if we wanted).

-P/P would get a stealth on demand, which is good. Since it’s primarily a direct damage weapon now, it would make that set look like D/D, where it could be used in a condition build or direct damage.

-SB (yes SB) would become the ultimate kiting weapon. Immobilize ON DEMAND! HELL YES!

It good that you are looking at ways to alter thief mechanics, but this is not the way unfortunately.

Sorry, this was done real fast, I’m sure there are many more points to be made, but these were just the few that came to mind right away.

Would be fun to see heartseeker range nerfed

Dee Jay.2460:

…I will also allow myself to disregard what most people said because they clearly don’t grasp what constitutes good game-design.

…and you do? Are you trying to be funny? =]

Josh P.1296:

Would be fun to see heartseeker range nerfed

Would be fun to see Burning Speed, Ride the Lightning, Updraft, Fiery Rush, Fiery Whirl, Burning Retreat, and all the other gap closer skills’ range nerfed.

Wilow.3061:

Dee Jay.2460:

Mechanix.5719:

I wonder if he will reply back

Sure I will, but I will also allow myself to disregard what most people said because they clearly don’t grasp what constitutes good game-design.

Good game design enforces choice. Not only in the most obvious fashion like what path you want to take through a Dungeon but in every aspect and every moment of game-play.

What stats do you want on your gear? What do I want to do? Where shall I fight? Where shall I move? What ability shall I use?

Currently Initiative fails at this because it gives the player a choice between Damage and Damage. Most builds already limited the number of viable weapons skills and Initiative really doesn’t force interesting choices. Hence we are prone to spam.

With my proposal players would be making active choices about how to spend their Initiative. It’s far more compelling than simply Death Blossom, Death Blossom, Death Blossom .

No one uses DB DB DB…

Your idea simply won’t work for one reason:

-stealth on demand for next to no cost, with NO requirements attached to it (other then 2 initiative while FORCED to be in stealth).

Currently CnD does this for us at triple the initiative, WITH a component where we are REQUIRED to hit a target, as well as REQUIRING us to have a dagger in our offhand. While I would LOVE this idea, you have to think about what these changes would do to the class:

-BS builds would do a little less burst (I’m assuming mug would go away, and steal would become some useless utility), which is fine, but it would gain FREE stealth retreats/retries on demand, as well as either a daze or stun from the reworked CnD.

-P/D would get an overpowering buff, since they no longer need to get into melee to do damage/pressure, and can stack bleeds from 900 range away with ease (we could also go P/P and get an extra blind if we wanted).

-P/P would get a stealth on demand, which is good. Since it’s primarily a direct damage weapon now, it would make that set look like D/D, where it could be used in a condition build or direct damage.

-SB (yes SB) would become the ultimate kiting weapon. Immobilize ON DEMAND! HELL YES!

It good that you are looking at ways to alter thief mechanics, but this is not the way unfortunately.

Sorry, this was done real fast, I’m sure there are many more points to be made, but these were just the few that came to mind right away.

Sure it would affect different weapons sets differently but your feedback seems to be ignoring 2 things.

1. Reveal mechanic is still there. If you attack anyone from Stealth you can’t restealth for 3 seconds.

2. Being in Stealth will consume your Initiative. And if you chain your Stealth abilities too much you will replenish it slowly.

Say for example you’re getting ready to attack someone with a Shortbow. You Stealth (-2 Initiative) and open with Surprise Shot followed by Disabling Shot. That alone would drop you into the mid-range Initiative regen. If you continue burning Initiative you’ll find yourself in the low-regen spectrum and quickly find yourself unable to use stealth or skills.

Pistol/Dagger might be more problematic to balance but it would hardly be more OP than it currently is. Currently it can stealth every 3 seconds practically forever. At least now there’d be a limit.

But I admit you might need something like Sneak Attack costing Initiative or “no Imitative replenishment during Revealed” in order to balance it out. I haven’t got all the answers but I think the concept in itself makes sense. That’s why I presented it here.

Dee Jay.2460:

Pistol/Dagger might be more problematic to balance but it would hardly be more OP than it currently is. Currently it can stealth every 3 seconds practically forever.

It can only “stealth every 3 seconds practically forever”…against B-A-D players who treat PvP like PvE, and fail to dodge C&D (an obvious, and S-L-O-W animation).

You MUST be playing a different game.

Kurow.6973:

Dee Jay.2460:

…I will also allow myself to disregard what most people said because they clearly don’t grasp what constitutes good game-design.

…and you do? Are you trying to be funny? =]

Josh P.1296:

Would be fun to see heartseeker range nerfed

Would be fun to see Burning Speed, Ride the Lightning, Updraft, Fiery Rush, Fiery Whirl, Burning Retreat, and all the other gap closer skills’ range nerfed.

Updraft?

And of those remaining, how many can you use back to back to back?

Dee Jay.2460:

Mechanix.5719:

I wonder if he will reply back

Sure I will, but I will also allow myself to disregard what most people said because they clearly don’t grasp what constitutes good game-design.

O’rly? Please tell me all the games you designed. So we can compare your history to this asinine OP.

Dee Jay.2460:

Mechanix.5719:

I wonder if he will reply back

Sure I will, but I will also allow myself to disregard what most people said because they clearly don’t grasp what constitutes good game-design.

Good game design enforces choice. Not only in the most obvious fashion like what path you want to take through a Dungeon but in every aspect and every moment of game-play.

What stats do you want on your gear? What do I want to do? Where shall I fight? Where shall I move? What ability shall I use?

Currently Initiative fails at this because it gives the player a choice between Damage and Damage. Most builds already limited the number of viable weapons skills and Initiative really doesn’t force interesting choices. Hence we are prone to spam.

With my proposal players would be making active choices about how to spend their Initiative. It’s far more compelling than simply Death Blossom, Death Blossom, Death Blossom .

My current build bases my extra damage off initiative. If I go about spamming my skills I lose initiative thus losing my damage bonuses. Sounds like a very similar trade off system mentioned in your original post.

You may think in your own mind this is a more logical and better designed Thief profession but I disagree completely. I like my class as is and if you’ve put 750+ hours into it already maybe you just need to try something else. That’s nearly, if not, half the amount of time since the game released for beta events in August.

Pyrial.2917:

Kurow.6973:

Dee Jay.2460:

…I will also allow myself to disregard what most people said because they clearly don’t grasp what constitutes good game-design.

…and you do? Are you trying to be funny? =]

Josh P.1296:

Would be fun to see heartseeker range nerfed

Would be fun to see Burning Speed, Ride the Lightning, Updraft, Fiery Rush, Fiery Whirl, Burning Retreat, and all the other gap closer skills’ range nerfed.

Updraft?

And of those remaining, how many can you use back to back to back?

…and this shows the level of skill that you possess, where you do not understand how Updraft can be used as a gap closer.

Hahahahahahah.

No.

Dee Jay.2460:

1. Initiative
1 point every 1.0 second when above 7 Initiative

Dee Jay.2460:

However unlike other Stealth abilities this Stealth would consume Initiative at a rate of 1 per second.
This puts a cap on how much a Thief can stealth

No, it doesn’t.

Didnt read the whole Wall of text since im on phone. But My opinion would be making the thief rely less on stealth and more being a evasive tank or evasive DPS depending on what you wanna do.. Stealth is a bad thing in whatever game you look at

Dee Jay.2460:

Sure it would affect different weapons sets differently but your feedback seems to be ignoring 2 things.

1. Reveal mechanic is still there. If you attack anyone from Stealth you can’t restealth for 3 seconds.

2. Being in Stealth will consume your Initiative. And if you chain your Stealth abilities too much you will replenish it slowly.

Say for example you’re getting ready to attack someone with a Shortbow. You Stealth (-2 Initiative) and open with Surprise Shot followed by Disabling Shot. That alone would drop you into the mid-range Initiative regen. If you continue burning Initiative you’ll find yourself in the low-regen spectrum and quickly find yourself unable to use stealth or skills.

Pistol/Dagger might be more problematic to balance but it would hardly be more OP than it currently is. Currently it can stealth every 3 seconds practically forever. At least now there’d be a limit.

But I admit you might need something like Sneak Attack costing Initiative or “no Imitative replenishment during Revealed” in order to balance it out. I haven’t got all the answers but I think the concept in itself makes sense. That’s why I presented it here.

I wasn’t ignoring the revealed debuff. What I’m saying is your suggested Stealth F1 ability would cost less initiative overall in some situations and would probably equal out for others (depending on how much each abilities initiative cost is reduced by as per your suggestion). The biggest issue is the removal of the need to stab and HIT something in order to go into stealth. This would be way to overpowered.

Lets take the current BS or P/D builds. With your changes they would F1 (-2 initiative) -> auto attack (BS or SA) -> auto attack/run around for 2-2.5 seconds (back up to full initiative..actually you have wasted 1 initiative) -> F1 (-2 initiative) -> auto attack ….. This basic combo, which is pretty much what these 2 builds are based around, cost NO initiative. In fact you gain more then you spend. This lets you spend any amount of initiative on any other ability (and this is without any talents/utility, so you could be gaining more initiative back).

As for the SB argument, WHY would you cripple a target that is immobilized? To cover your immobilization? No point, as it only lasts 2 seconds. To cripple the target for 2 seconds after they have been immobilized for 2 seconds? Sure, you could do that, but you won’t need to do that every round. I said it would be op for kiting. 2 secs of your target not moving gives you more then enough time to put a gap between you. If you are spamming Disabling shot, you will be out of initiative in any situation (current or your modified versions).

All your suggestion will do is introduce a new form of stealth that costs more OVER time, while taking away a stealth that NEEDS to hit something in order to work and costs 6 initiative (wastes 6 initiative if you miss/fail to hit).

So taking this into consideration:

-CnD stealth lasts 3 seconds and costs 6 initiative(ignoring traits). Gives my target 3 stack of vulnerability for 5 secs and deals damage.

-Your new stealth would either give me twice the stealth duration (6 secs) for the same costs, or the same duration for half the cost. If I assume you are only going to stealth for 3 seconds to mirror CnD, I gain 3 initiative and don’t have to be in melee with anything, but loose the vulnerability and damage. If all I want to do is stealth to get my stealth attack off, I would gain an additional (+1) initiative.

How does this seem balanced to you?

But I admit you might need something like Sneak Attack costing Initiative or “no Imitative replenishment during Revealed” in order to balance it out. I haven’t got all the answers but I think the concept in itself makes sense. That’s why I presented it here.

No and No. Having the stealth attack cost initiative MIGHT work, but it would have to be very low, or else most if not all thief weapons would need a major rework. No initiative regeneration during revealed would destroy the current incarnation of Cond P thieves. I know I just finished saying that P cond thiefs under your idea would gain more initiative then they spend in a typical rotation, but by preventing regeneration during the revealed debuff would force them to do nothing BUT stealth -> auto attack -> stealth -> auto attack (might as well remove the other 3 buttons altogether).

Another reason to not have no regen during revealed is it would punish those players attacking from a stealth they didn’t mean to do (either by another player or via one of our heals). It could also not happen until they remove the bug where you sometimes don’t get to use your stealth attack if you stealthed mid attack (and you unstealth using your regular auto attack).

Yes, your idea would be nice to have, but it would not be balanced at all, and it would cause even more grief on the forums.

TLDR NO, I didn’t ignore your points. You haven’t thought your idea through all the problems it would bring up.

You’re getting too hung up on numbers when it’s the concept that I wanted to debate.

Numbers are easy to adjust. Stealth can easily consume 1.5 Initiative per second or any other arbitrary numeric change you like.

It’s about the concept because I believe the Thief profession is flawed on a conceptual level. It’s not fun to play against for other as can be seen my the months and months of endless QQ on these forums and imo the profession doesn’t have enough depth to it.

The Thief has a very low skill floor as in you can be very successful with button mashing. I’d like a higher skill-floor that rewards skillful play more than the current system does.

Don’t get too hung up on the numbers. They are easy to change.

Dee Jay.2460:

Numbers are easy to adjust. Stealth can easily consume 1.5 Initiative per second or any other arbitrary numeric change you like.

…Don’t get too hung up on the numbers. They are easy to change.

Then don’t try change the current thief with your ideas…and instead work with numbers.

Dee Jay.2460:

The Thief has a very low skill floor as in you can be very successful with button mashing. I’d like a higher skill-floor that rewards skillful play more than the current system does.

The thief has a very low skill floor? Is this a joke…or are we talking pug games with casuals who don’t devote, nor care to devote enough time to learn the PvP mechanics, and tactics of the game?

Numbers aside, the thief class actually has a rather high “skill floor”. Yes, you can get far by button mashing in certain specs, but that’s like saying all a warrior has to do is hit 2 on the GS ability. Play some sPvP and you will notice that all these OP thieves are nowhere to be seen.

The only reason I bring up numbers is to show you that your idea, in its current form, will not work. That’s not to say don’t continue to try and find better ways to fix problems in this game, you wanted people to critique your idea, so I did. If you propose an idea, and someone says it will not work because of x,y and z, try to come up with solutions to further progress your idea.

I agree some aspects of the thief are flawed, but the only solution I’ve seen so far that will fix many of these issues is to make it a evading tank like class, which doesn’t fit the thief description. Too much of the class has dependencies on stealth, so when you start fussing with that ability, you need to look at the broad picture and suggest changes instead of just saying:

-This Stealth mechanic would also require the conceptual revision of all other Stealth abilities. Cloak and Dagger for example would need to be altered (and lose it’s stealth component) while Shadow Refuge could remain largely unchanged.

More then half of the traits in the Shadow Arts line deals with stealth, as do a few other traits in the other lines. Which of these will change? Which of these will stay the same? Which will no longer work? Which would become broken (for example stealthing refunds 2 initiative would have to go)?

As for the months of QQ, go look at EVERY other mmo game with a stealth class. These classes are the focus of most QQ as many (most?) players don’t want to learn how the class works. Playing a thief for a long time has taught me how to avoid/handle them, which has helped immensely playing as other classes in PvP. The class isn’t nearly as broken as many people claim it is (not saying they don’t have issues, but not on the scale that these forums seems to paint).

I’m sorry if this sounds like an attack against you. It’s not.

These classes are the focus of most QQ as many (most?) players don’t want to learn how the class works.

No.

The reason stealth classes get the most QQ in MMORPGs is because the stealth mechanic itself is significantly more binary than any other class mechanic in these games. In addition, the particular advantage it provides is proactive, rather than reactive. This provides for a significantly different requirement for “counter-play” compared to all other class mechanics.

As a result, stealth is difficult for developers to balance, and results in the most QQ.

Dee Jay.2460:

The goal of this redesign is to present Thief players with:

a) more interesting choices in combat
b) a system that rewards resource management over spamming
c) a more universal Stealth system usable by all builds and weapons.

The core of this redesign focuses on the replacement of Steal and reworking of Initiative.

1. Initiative

On a functional level, Initiative will remain unchanged. It will still be used as a resource for weapon abilities just like currently. However it will also be used as a resource for Stealth. As such, it limits how much Stealth can be used within a certain window and forces the player to chose between offensive pressure and stealth.

Also instead of regenerating at a steady rate of 1 point every 1.33 seconds Initiative will replenish faster, the more you have and slower, the less you have. As a guide line, Initiative should replenish as follows:

1 point every 1.0 second when above 7 Initiative
1 point every 1.5 seconds when above 4 Initiative
1 point every 2.0 seconds when below 5 Initiative

The goal here is to discourage ability spam without removing the choice. Players will be rewarded if they manage the resource well and starved if they dump it too quickly. Other MMOs have used similar resource systems to great effect.

Note: Some Initiative replenishing traits and abilities would require revision with such a system.

2. Stealth/Steal

Steal is no longer a base-line profession ability. Instead it replaces the current Infiltrator’s Singet and becomes a standard utility ability. Instead Stealth becomes the new profession ability. It would work like the current Blinding Tuft or Bliding Feathers you steal from mobs and Thieves. It would stealth you immediately until your exited Stealth either by attacking or pressing F1 again.

However unlike other Stealth abilities this Stealth would consume Initiative at a rate of 1 per second. This puts a cap on how much a Thief can stealth and forces him to chose between offensive ability use or defensive stealthing. For balance reasons Stealth would need a minimum duration of 2 seconds so people cant just dip in and out of Stealth constantly. The Revealed mechanic would function as usual.

Hi,

1) I liked the dynamic regen rate in other games too, but they tend to have a much larger resource pool relative to resource cost. With one CnD or Black Powder putting you into the slower regen bracket, sustained DPS would actually be more boring with your system because it would force us to auto-attack between every 1-2 Initiative cost abilities. Considering melee weapons already reward us for not interrupting auto-attack chains, we’re already encouraged not to spam completely mindlessly.

The way I see it, you would effectively have to increase the size of our initiative pool in order for the system to work like dynamic regen pools in other games, which might be cool, but it would be a buff to the class.

2) First, I really like Steal and would hate to see it diminished. It provides a lot of interesting choices in combat, which is one of the key goals your striving for. Diminishing it seems counter-productive.

As others have said, there’s a reason stealth is restricted. It should be pretty obvious how on-demand stealth for a ranged spec would be ridiculous.

My 2c-

As long as we’re talking about complete redesigns, I think merging condition damage and power would make the game in general more fun, especially for Thieves. Yeah, you might still spam Death Blossom, but choosing between direct damage and condition attacks based on the situation, your target, and your teammates would be pretty interesting. Of course, it might come at the cost of less build diversity, but I think it would be 100% worth it. Different builds would still have more ways to apply conditions than others (and/or more condition duration). In some ways, it might make more builds viable because you’d have more options available to you.

I’m thief, I stealth and I’m here to stay !