Guild Wars 2

Acrobatics is almost there. A few tweaks and one or two major changes can put it over the top.

Expeditious dodger Fine as is.

Pain response Fine as Is
Instant reflexes Make it a deception
Vigorous recovery REmove replace with.

Strike from shadows.

The next attack after a shadowstep is unblockable. (10 second ICD)

Feline grace fine as is

Guarded Initiation Add On removing one of these conditions gain 1 second resistance
Hard To Catch make a trick
Swindlers equilibrium Increase damage from swords to 10 percent rest the same.

Endless stamina remains as is.

Upper hand remains as is
Don’t stop becomes a Physical
Assassins reward Add gain +100 to distance of all shadowsteps.

The problem is less that acro isn’t good (it is), and more that it doesn’t offer the same utility as DA. If you’re using dash, then panic strike and improv/executioner bring more to the build than the whole acro line.

Jugglemonkey.8741:

The problem is less that acro isn’t good (it is), and more that it doesn’t offer the same utility as DA. If you’re using dash, then panic strike and improv/executioner bring more to the build than the whole acro line.

Actually no. There the same level of utility in Acro when one considers weapon sets.

DA does not give added endurance thus dodges. DA does not remove conditions. DA does not lower steal cooldown. DA does not provide Regen. DA does not give INI gain. DA has no stun breaks and no evades. DA does not give swiftness.

Acro is a defesnive line after all and the type of utility it offers in that regard is superior to DA.

When you state IF you are using Dash you are making a straw man arguement. There a number of builds that will not use Dash and there are builds that may not use DD. I have a build that prefers don’t stop as I want Bounding dodger out of the DD line. Many builds will also want Lotus training and the acro line would address their lack of swiftness and immob breaks if they do take this.

I can accomplish the effects of panic strike in other ways, that does not mean Panic strike has no utility. (needle trap as example is superior to panic strike as is impairing daggers). The same follows with what dash offers. If I do not want it I can get the same effects with other means.

I might prefer extra condition cleanse out of the Acro line with PR over what DA or CS offers. In taking bounding i can make up for much of the damage loss of Executioner having added bounds that can do AOE damage and not tied to an enemies health being under 50 percent.

Improv is a very nice skill , but I can argue upper hand offers excellent utility in that it gives full time regen (superior to mug heal) along with Ini regen which can be significant. Don’t stop with an automatic Immob removal every 10 seconds without having to use a dodge to remove the same is also very useful.

The problem with Acro in its current state is there just not enough offered at each step in the ways of choices meaning there always one best choice for most builds. Those that are underused need slight boosts. If still not enough they can be tweaked more in the future but as a defensive line Acro is very close to being where it should be.

acro tree is already good enough considering its synergy with DD and there is no need to overload it, like free regen on upper hand is already too much

some traits of course are still straight up garbage like guarded initiation or vigorous recovery, but whatever, gw2 as a whole suffers from offering a lot of choices just for the sake of having chocies, hence at least half of them are either noob traps or obviously bad

but even then in every tier of acro there is at least 1 good trait to pick from so its already pretty good, you know

Lexander.4579:

acro tree is already good enough considering its synergy with DD and there is no need to overload it, like free regen on upper hand is already too much

some traits of course are still straight up garbage like guarded initiation or vigorous recovery, but whatever, gw2 as a whole suffers from offering a lot of choices just for the sake of having chocies, hence at least half of them are either noob traps or obviously bad

but even then in every tier of acro there is at least 1 good trait to pick from so its already pretty good, you know

Agreed for the most part and vigorous recovery along with GI are the ones in most need of change. The rest are slight tweaks. (For more of that synergy)

I do not think we have to accept “some traits are garbage and no one need take theM”

They can all be like DD , Trickery and DA where for the most part every trait usable.

babazhook.6805:

Acrobatics is almost there. A few tweaks and one or two major changes can put it over the top.

Expeditious dodger Fine as is.

Pain response Fine as Is
Instant reflexes Make it a deception

This is more like a Trick since it has nothing to do with Deception, which mainly about shadow arts.

Vigorous recovery REmove replace with.

Strike from shadows.

The next attack after a shadowstep is unblockable. (10 second ICD)

Shadowstep related trait doesn’t belong in Acro. If this triggers after a dodge, that is more appropriate and actually a good combo.

Don’t stop becomes a Physical

No good. It’ll be unusable once DD rolls out. Physical Supremacy grants access to anything physical and it will lose benefit from Brawler Tenacity.

Assassins reward Add gain +100 to distance of all shadowsteps.

Another shadowstep related. Although I like that trait, I believe it doesn’t belongs in Acro.

OK let me preface this by saying I originally thought of dodge to unblockable attack for the vigorous recovery replacement but just have this deep desire to see something enhance shadowsteps.

That said SA needs work as well and SA might be a better place for that. With that in mind.

Expeditious dodger remains the same

Pain response remains the same
Instant reflexes becomes a trick
Deadly Dodger On dodge next attack is unblockable (10 second ICD)

Feline Grace remains the same

Guarded Initiation Add On removing one of these conditions gain 1 second resistance
Swindlers equilibrium remains the same save sword damage increases to 10 percent/
Hard to Catch becomes a trick.

The rest remain the same albeit there might be a further tweak needed to GM traits in future.

babazhook.6805:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

The problem is less that acro isn’t good (it is), and more that it doesn’t offer the same utility as DA. If you’re using dash, then panic strike and improv/executioner bring more to the build than the whole acro line.

Actually no. There the same level of utility in Acro when one considers weapon sets.

DA does not give added endurance thus dodges. DA does not remove conditions. DA does not lower steal cooldown. DA does not provide Regen. DA does not give INI gain. DA has no stun breaks and no evades. DA does not give swiftness.

Acro is a defesnive line after all and the type of utility it offers in that regard is superior to DA.

When you state IF you are using Dash you are making a straw man arguement. There a number of builds that will not use Dash and there are builds that may not use DD. I have a build that prefers don’t stop as I want Bounding dodger out of the DD line. Many builds will also want Lotus training and the acro line would address their lack of swiftness and immob breaks if they do take this.

I can accomplish the effects of panic strike in other ways, that does not mean Panic strike has no utility. (needle trap as example is superior to panic strike as is impairing daggers). The same follows with what dash offers. If I do not want it I can get the same effects with other means.

I might prefer extra condition cleanse out of the Acro line with PR over what DA or CS offers. In taking bounding i can make up for much of the damage loss of Executioner having added bounds that can do AOE damage and not tied to an enemies health being under 50 percent.

Improv is a very nice skill , but I can argue upper hand offers excellent utility in that it gives full time regen (superior to mug heal) along with Ini regen which can be significant. Don’t stop with an automatic Immob removal every 10 seconds without having to use a dodge to remove the same is also very useful.

The problem with Acro in its current state is there just not enough offered at each step in the ways of choices meaning there always one best choice for most builds. Those that are underused need slight boosts. If still not enough they can be tweaked more in the future but as a defensive line Acro is very close to being where it should be.

I’m well aware of all of this, I have an acro build in my sig haha I’m also not saying you should run dash, or acro, or anything for that matter, if you want to play acro then do it. It’s a good traitline and it works well.

Im not making a straw man argument, I’m simply saying something you said yourself only in reverse: if you take dash, acro is redundant. That doesn’t make it bad, I said myself it’s a good traitline, just unnecessary given certain circumstances. The same is true in reverse, because acro is a viable alternative to running dash. This is relevant as the majority of thieves run dash, so DA will bring more to their build. If anything you’re trying to discredit my argument by accusing me of the same logical fallacy you just used yourself, straw-man-ception.

I’d just rather see shadow arts get some love because acro is already in a good spot in my opinion, and is well used as an alternative build whereas SA seems to only sees use in troll builds these days.

babazhook.6805:

Swindlers equilibrium remains the same save sword damage increases to 10 percent/

I’m personally not a big fan of any trait that is weapon specific since not only limits the choices from 3 to 2 for non-sword, but it also pigeon hole any build that uses a sword. This trait should function with any weapon.

Here’s my fix to this;
Swindler’s Equilibrium – Evading an attack recharges Steal by 10% (no CD, no weapon boost)

Keeping this trait as simple as possible will make it a good choice for Thief that likes to take risks. Triggering a multiple evade on a single dodge should be rewarding. It’s a good trait for builds that doesn’t carry Trickery.

Jugglemonkey.8741:

babazhook.6805:

Jugglemonkey.8741:

The problem is less that acro isn’t good (it is), and more that it doesn’t offer the same utility as DA. If you’re using dash, then panic strike and improv/executioner bring more to the build than the whole acro line.

Actually no. There the same level of utility in Acro when one considers weapon sets.

DA does not give added endurance thus dodges. DA does not remove conditions. DA does not lower steal cooldown. DA does not provide Regen. DA does not give INI gain. DA has no stun breaks and no evades. DA does not give swiftness.

Acro is a defesnive line after all and the type of utility it offers in that regard is superior to DA.

When you state IF you are using Dash you are making a straw man arguement. There a number of builds that will not use Dash and there are builds that may not use DD. I have a build that prefers don’t stop as I want Bounding dodger out of the DD line. Many builds will also want Lotus training and the acro line would address their lack of swiftness and immob breaks if they do take this.

I can accomplish the effects of panic strike in other ways, that does not mean Panic strike has no utility. (needle trap as example is superior to panic strike as is impairing daggers). The same follows with what dash offers. If I do not want it I can get the same effects with other means.

I might prefer extra condition cleanse out of the Acro line with PR over what DA or CS offers. In taking bounding i can make up for much of the damage loss of Executioner having added bounds that can do AOE damage and not tied to an enemies health being under 50 percent.

Improv is a very nice skill , but I can argue upper hand offers excellent utility in that it gives full time regen (superior to mug heal) along with Ini regen which can be significant. Don’t stop with an automatic Immob removal every 10 seconds without having to use a dodge to remove the same is also very useful.

The problem with Acro in its current state is there just not enough offered at each step in the ways of choices meaning there always one best choice for most builds. Those that are underused need slight boosts. If still not enough they can be tweaked more in the future but as a defensive line Acro is very close to being where it should be.

I’m well aware of all of this, I have an acro build in my sig haha I’m also not saying you should run dash, or acro, or anything for that matter, if you want to play acro then do it. It’s a good traitline and it works well.

Im not making a straw man argument, I’m simply saying something you said yourself only in reverse: if you take dash, acro is redundant. That doesn’t make it bad, I said myself it’s a good traitline, just unnecessary given certain circumstances. The same is true in reverse, because acro is a viable alternative to running dash. This is relevant as the majority of thieves run dash, so DA will bring more to their build. If anything you’re trying to discredit my argument by accusing me of the same logical fallacy you just used yourself, straw-man-ception.

I’d just rather see shadow arts get some love because acro is already in a good spot in my opinion, and is well used as an alternative build whereas SA seems to only sees use in troll builds these days.

You said quite clearly that if you took Dash, and panic strike and one of Improv or executioner you gained more utility than the entire acro line.

This is simply not true. Even if one DID take dash there very good reasons to take Acro. Acro has a pile of utility.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Swindlers equilibrium remains the same save sword damage increases to 10 percent/

I’m personally not a big fan of any trait that is weapon specific since not only limits the choices from 3 to 2 for non-sword, but it also pigeon hole any build that uses a sword. This trait should function with any weapon.

Here’s my fix to this;
Swindler’s Equilibrium – Evading an attack recharges Steal by 10% (no CD, no weapon boost)

Keeping this trait as simple as possible will make it a good choice for Thief that likes to take risks. Triggering a multiple evade on a single dodge should be rewarding. It’s a good trait for builds that doesn’t carry Trickery.

I disagree for a number of reasons.

First and foremost ascribing a trait to a particular weapon exists throughout all classes. If you look at warrior as example they have a trait for virtually every weapon type. Given they specific to that weapon than they can be boosted in power and not becoming overwhelmig. If they were generic then people could take two or three such traits and make an overpowering weaponset.

This would lead to having to scale down the benefits of each which in turn means the only way one can benefit would be taking them all.

As example imagine Greatsword on warrior getting its might stacking AND 20 percent damage bonus that hammer gets against stunned foes. That way too much.

Now to thief and swindlers. If I took my d/d deathblossom Condition build used in conjunction with evades off Lotus training and traited your version of swindlers, I would easily get steal times to under 5 seconds. That way too powerful.

I have no issues with weapon specific traits as it means those traits can be meaningful when taken.

aerobatic need damage to be worth looking at thief does not have HP to run a bunker line sadly. you may get a lot more dodging in it but dodging has punish frame in itself so more or less a gimmick to rely on.

best way to fix it would be to add to assassin reward gain +5% dmg mod for 10 seconds after eva an attack and can be stack 5 times.

that give the line what thief core needs to be able to support running it. i know it sounds like “power creeping trait” but it because of the way a net design thief weapon skills all there base skill by default are insanely low damage main reason they output high is because thief trait have so many global passive damage mod on it.

Can anyone explain why vigorous recovery is bad isn’t that the trait that gives 10 seconds of vigor after using a healing skill? Between that feline grace and bountiful theft isn’t that well near perma vigor how is that bad? It could be better but I don’t really see how exactly it’s bad could prob just have an instant 10 endurance on top of what it already does or something added when using a healing skill my only issue with it would be it might be to powerful when combined with Daredevils channeled vigor and brawlers tenacity.

Lalainnia.3598:

Can anyone explain why vigorous recovery is bad isn’t that the trait that gives 10 seconds of vigor after using a healing skill? Between that feline grace and bountiful theft isn’t that well near perma vigor how is that bad? It could be better but I don’t really see how exactly it’s bad could prob just have an instant 10 endurance on top of what it already does or something added when using a healing skill my only issue with it would be it might be to powerful when combined with Daredevils channeled vigor and brawlers tenacity.

It bad because with all the evades you all but have full time vigor. Vigor on top of vigor does nothing.

It is redundant and not worth taking for that reason.

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Swindlers equilibrium remains the same save sword damage increases to 10 percent/

I’m personally not a big fan of any trait that is weapon specific since not only limits the choices from 3 to 2 for non-sword, but it also pigeon hole any build that uses a sword. This trait should function with any weapon.

Here’s my fix to this;
Swindler’s Equilibrium – Evading an attack recharges Steal by 10% (no CD, no weapon boost)

Keeping this trait as simple as possible will make it a good choice for Thief that likes to take risks. Triggering a multiple evade on a single dodge should be rewarding. It’s a good trait for builds that doesn’t carry Trickery.

I disagree for a number of reasons.

First and foremost ascribing a trait to a particular weapon exists throughout all classes. If you look at warrior as example they have a trait for virtually every weapon type. Given they specific to that weapon than they can be boosted in power and not becoming overwhelmig. If they were generic then people could take two or three such traits and make an overpowering weaponset.

This would lead to having to scale down the benefits of each which in turn means the only way one can benefit would be taking them all.

As example imagine Greatsword on warrior getting its might stacking AND 20 percent damage bonus that hammer gets against stunned foes. That way too much.

The weapon specific traits only made sense before they consolidated the trait lines. If the trait is weapon specific, it means that the build is purposely weaker if the trait is not chosen, which limits that choice certain build has — in other words, they are pigeon holed. So if such weapon specific trait is essential to a build using specific weapon, it makes zero sense to put it up as a choice — why not just make it base line for that weapon?

If the Dev wants Hammer to gain extra damage against stunned foes, then they can just simply consolidate all the weapon specific effect into one trait and call it Weapon Mastery. Then they can list all the bonuses each weapon receives, similar to how Master of Corruption works where each skill has different effect, they can make one for each weapon has different effect.

Weapon Mastery:
- Gain 20% damage against stunned foe while wielding a hammer.
- Gain 20% crit chance against bleeding foe while wielding a sword.
- Gain 10% damage while wielding a greatsword.
- etc.

My point is, the current weapon specific traits limits the choices specially now that we can only choose one of the three traits. They either make the trait generic or consolidate all weapon specific effects into one trait subsequently opening trait slots for improvements.

Now to thief and swindlers. If I took my d/d deathblossom Condition build used in conjunction with evades off Lotus training and traited your version of swindlers, I would easily get steal times to under 5 seconds. That way too powerful.

The numbers can always be tweaked for balance. If you are willing to spend initiatives and endurance to reduce the Steal CD and you perfectly executed the evades, then that’s not too powerful at all. It requires skills that deserves the reward. Besides, it’s not something you can do continuously, there will be times that you’ll have to wait for init and endurance to refill.

I have no issues with weapon specific traits as it means those traits can be meaningful when taken.

That also means that it should be best in slot…the very definition of pigeon holing.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Swindlers equilibrium remains the same save sword damage increases to 10 percent/

I’m personally not a big fan of any trait that is weapon specific since not only limits the choices from 3 to 2 for non-sword, but it also pigeon hole any build that uses a sword. This trait should function with any weapon.

Here’s my fix to this;
Swindler’s Equilibrium – Evading an attack recharges Steal by 10% (no CD, no weapon boost)

Keeping this trait as simple as possible will make it a good choice for Thief that likes to take risks. Triggering a multiple evade on a single dodge should be rewarding. It’s a good trait for builds that doesn’t carry Trickery.

I disagree for a number of reasons.

First and foremost ascribing a trait to a particular weapon exists throughout all classes. If you look at warrior as example they have a trait for virtually every weapon type. Given they specific to that weapon than they can be boosted in power and not becoming overwhelmig. If they were generic then people could take two or three such traits and make an overpowering weaponset.

This would lead to having to scale down the benefits of each which in turn means the only way one can benefit would be taking them all.

As example imagine Greatsword on warrior getting its might stacking AND 20 percent damage bonus that hammer gets against stunned foes. That way too much.

The weapon specific traits only made sense before they consolidated the trait lines. If the trait is weapon specific, it means that the build is purposely weaker if the trait is not chosen, which limits that choice certain build has — in other words, they are pigeon holed. So if such weapon specific trait is essential to a build using specific weapon, it makes zero sense to put it up as a choice — why not just make it base line for that weapon?

If the Dev wants Hammer to gain extra damage against stunned foes, then they can just simply consolidate all the weapon specific effect into one trait and call it Weapon Mastery. Then they can list all the bonuses each weapon receives, similar to how Master of Corruption works where each skill has different effect, they can make one for each weapon has different effect.

Weapon Mastery:
- Gain 20% damage against stunned foe while wielding a hammer.
- Gain 20% crit chance against bleeding foe while wielding a sword.
- Gain 10% damage while wielding a greatsword.
- etc.

My point is, the current weapon specific traits limits the choices specially now that we can only choose one of the three traits. They either make the trait generic or consolidate all weapon specific effects into one trait subsequently opening trait slots for improvements.

Now to thief and swindlers. If I took my d/d deathblossom Condition build used in conjunction with evades off Lotus training and traited your version of swindlers, I would easily get steal times to under 5 seconds. That way too powerful.

The numbers can always be tweaked for balance. If you are willing to spend initiatives and endurance to reduce the Steal CD and you perfectly executed the evades, then that’s not too powerful at all. It requires skills that deserves the reward. Besides, it’s not something you can do continuously, there will be times that you’ll have to wait for init and endurance to refill.

I have no issues with weapon specific traits as it means those traits can be meaningful when taken.

That also means that it should be best in slot…the very definition of pigeon holing.

Hardly best in slot. The current iteration is 7 percent damage. Many people prefer HTC even thos eusing sword. Add a Resistance to GI and many would take GI.

If I am going D/P power in DA potent poison and Improv are likely not best in slot. I would take Executioner. If I am building a condition build and using DA it pretty obvious potent poison my choice. That hardly pigeon holing when my condition build (or power build in the former) takes the trait best suited for that build.

See mug / trappers respite/ dagger mastery as another example. Just because one uses daggers does not mean one must or would take that skill. Even a condition build using daggers might prefer trappers respite.

A skill like SE in the SA line is pigeon holing as any build type is likley to take that over the other two.

We will have to disagree again.

Personally think acro is one the few lines that doesn’t need any real fixes. . . just my 2 cents.

^Acrobatics is fine. but then, i’m new to Theif this season… IMO (may be wrong) Acrobatics is awesome. everything on it synergies amazingly with all of the defensive capabilities from core thief and daredevil. sure, it’s not good at helping with damage, but it’s a line dedicated specifically to defense. When your vigor aplications are cranting 150% endurence regeneration (am i doing the math wrong here? 75% x2 (because of trait?)) it’s kind of hard to complain about the lack of power. I run it with P/P Paladins amulet, and still hit like a truck while also surviving.

Just a few ideas for acro, as thieves don’t have much in the way of group support:

Expeditious Dodger
Replace with: “You and nearby allies gain swiftness whenever you dodge (swiftness for 4 s, Radius 240, No ICD)”.

Vigorous Recovery
Replace with: “Slipstream
Whenever you grant swiftness to an ally, they gain superspeed as well (superspeed for 4 s, 10 s ICD)”.
Thieves already have plenty of vigour, especially in the Acro line, Vigorous Recovery is just too much.

Guarded Initiation
Replace with: “Evasive Adjustment
Dodging removes weakness, slow and vulnerability (10 s ICD)”.
Limited condi clear above 75% hp after striking an enemy is just bad. This makes it similar to other classes’ condi clear on dodge that do find use, especially if you can dodge as often as a thief.

Don’t Stop
Replace with “Go with the Flow
Whenever you dodge, other nearby allies evade for a duration (Evade: 0.5 s, Radius: 240, Number of Allied Targets: 4, 2 s ICD”.
Don’t Stop isn’t needed as Dash just makes this obsolete.

I imagine the issue with increased vigor uptime is redundancy. With a passive trait granting 5s of vigor on evade, acro thieves already have solid vigor uptime in combat. Compare to granting a passive condi clear + decent regen uptime or a passive 2s evade when you need it. There just isn’t much point to granting vigor on heal in this trait line and it becomes even less useful when paired with daredevil because vigor in general isn’t all that useful when you already have all the evasion you need.

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

babazhook.6805:

Swindlers equilibrium remains the same save sword damage increases to 10 percent/

I’m personally not a big fan of any trait that is weapon specific since not only limits the choices from 3 to 2 for non-sword, but it also pigeon hole any build that uses a sword. This trait should function with any weapon.

Here’s my fix to this;
Swindler’s Equilibrium – Evading an attack recharges Steal by 10% (no CD, no weapon boost)

Keeping this trait as simple as possible will make it a good choice for Thief that likes to take risks. Triggering a multiple evade on a single dodge should be rewarding. It’s a good trait for builds that doesn’t carry Trickery.

I disagree for a number of reasons.

First and foremost ascribing a trait to a particular weapon exists throughout all classes. If you look at warrior as example they have a trait for virtually every weapon type. Given they specific to that weapon than they can be boosted in power and not becoming overwhelmig. If they were generic then people could take two or three such traits and make an overpowering weaponset.

This would lead to having to scale down the benefits of each which in turn means the only way one can benefit would be taking them all.

As example imagine Greatsword on warrior getting its might stacking AND 20 percent damage bonus that hammer gets against stunned foes. That way too much.

The weapon specific traits only made sense before they consolidated the trait lines. If the trait is weapon specific, it means that the build is purposely weaker if the trait is not chosen, which limits that choice certain build has — in other words, they are pigeon holed. So if such weapon specific trait is essential to a build using specific weapon, it makes zero sense to put it up as a choice — why not just make it base line for that weapon?

If the Dev wants Hammer to gain extra damage against stunned foes, then they can just simply consolidate all the weapon specific effect into one trait and call it Weapon Mastery. Then they can list all the bonuses each weapon receives, similar to how Master of Corruption works where each skill has different effect, they can make one for each weapon has different effect.

Weapon Mastery:
- Gain 20% damage against stunned foe while wielding a hammer.
- Gain 20% crit chance against bleeding foe while wielding a sword.
- Gain 10% damage while wielding a greatsword.
- etc.

My point is, the current weapon specific traits limits the choices specially now that we can only choose one of the three traits. They either make the trait generic or consolidate all weapon specific effects into one trait subsequently opening trait slots for improvements.

Now to thief and swindlers. If I took my d/d deathblossom Condition build used in conjunction with evades off Lotus training and traited your version of swindlers, I would easily get steal times to under 5 seconds. That way too powerful.

The numbers can always be tweaked for balance. If you are willing to spend initiatives and endurance to reduce the Steal CD and you perfectly executed the evades, then that’s not too powerful at all. It requires skills that deserves the reward. Besides, it’s not something you can do continuously, there will be times that you’ll have to wait for init and endurance to refill.

I have no issues with weapon specific traits as it means those traits can be meaningful when taken.

That also means that it should be best in slot…the very definition of pigeon holing.

Hardly best in slot. The current iteration is 7 percent damage. Many people prefer HTC even thos eusing sword. Add a Resistance to GI and many would take GI.

If I am going D/P power in DA potent poison and Improv are likely not best in slot. I would take Executioner. If I am building a condition build and using DA it pretty obvious potent poison my choice. That hardly pigeon holing when my condition build (or power build in the former) takes the trait best suited for that build.

That’s the very definition of best-in-slot or pigeon holing. If you build power, you have no other choice but to take the trait that is best-in-slot which is Exec…no point on taking other trait since there’s really no other choice but Exec. Then if you build condition damage, it’s the same thing, there’s no other choice but Potent.

The traits needs to be more open so regardless of your build choice, you always have 3 traits to choose from — not one.

See mug / trappers respite/ dagger mastery as another example. Just because one uses daggers does not mean one must or would take that skill. Even a condition build using daggers might prefer trappers respite.

Oh come on, every Thief knows that Mug is the only choice for non-condition build and trapper’s respite for condition build. Dagger mastery is a hit and miss, although I use it, there are times that I rather take Mug for my condition build because of the heal.

A skill like SE in the SA line is pigeon holing as any build type is likley to take that over the other two.

We will have to disagree again.

What we have is an illusion of choice and every power build and every condition build takes the same traits to be efficient.

If Dagger Training is remade to become Thief Training, for example, and has the following effect;
- Thief Training – Attacks has 33% chance to apply the effect of a venom you have equipped (multiple equipped venom will be chosen randomly).

This trait will be open to any build. If you bring condition damage venom, this is a good choice. If you build power and bring Basi, this is still a good choice. In addition, it’s not weapon or build specific. It is a good choice no matter what build you pick.

Shadow Embrace is not pigeon holing because it doesn’t force the player to make specific build nor take specific weapon.

It’s funny, I’ve beaten most “big name” thieves in duels; Caed, Toker to name a few, and I don’t use execution, infact, I think it’s a dull trait, improvisation gives so much utility I love it, improv. to me is life and fyi I don’t bank on it insta recharging a skill like most people make the mistake of, that’s icing on the cake when it does and can lead to some fancy, on the fly ideas but the double steal skills allow you to:

- outstealth other thieves
- stunlock guardians
- double boon fun from mesmers
- lol at revs

during teamfights sometimes its best to steal from one opponent then move to target since you have the double steal skill when without improve. trait it wouldn’t be near as worth it, aka: steal from guard to stunlock ele (more prominent move in s3 but you catcht he drift)

another thing improve does is make you a more viable teamfighter in situations, aka steal from druid, drop water field for allies (being able to do this twice can turn tides in teamfights)

either way it’s definitely opinion/playstyle but imo and the way I play my thief (which is marauder da/trick/dd, d/p-s/b dd runes bound). improve brings to much to my playstyle to drop for 20% damage under 50% health, we have the burst, we have the damage, the amount of utility improv. brings when played with some thought (not saying I am superior thief I think more yadda yadda, just played with a slightly different eye due to the trait imo) is crucial to my success as a thief.

TheNickPrice.8457:

…the double steal skills allow you to:

- outstealth other thieves
- stunlock guardians
- double boon fun from mesmers
- lol at revs

Outstealth in PvP? What’s the point? Stun lock guardians? Unlikely. The second stun is more than likely dodged. Double boon from Mesmer? Only useful if you can actually see them. Revs? Please.

In a typical power build, CS takes care of things if target is above 50% and Exec takes over when target is below 50%, thus it is best in slot.

Ive won point fights against big names with acrobatics on my Condi thief .but I’m going to have to admit that when one of them tells me I’d loose in a strait up 1v1 I’m inclined to believe them….I mean, fighting another thief to recap a point is way different than fighting for the kill. Typically I steal to the. Keep up me defenses until the recap then stealth and short bow my booty out of there. If I’m running sages amulet I may try and contest if my home and mid are good. But acrobatics already provides me with a lot of flexibility.

Acrobatics thieves are not meant for 1v1 duels. We are meant to survive against multiple foes and still recap a point and complete objectives. Something this BS Dh meta has taken from thieves recently. I just got to diamond on my thief, and rarely hear anyone complain about my ability even if I have the lowest score, because even with three or 4 hrs on point I can still do my job, and I can even stand in a mid fight.

Acrobatics for life, man

Much thought Sir Vincent…

Outstealth in PvP: If you meet up with enemy thief decapping your home lets say and he decides to stay for a duel it’s a nice addition to your bag of tricks, you can also use it to your advantage in other situations, ex.) beat thief at your home, pass through mid → far for decap unnoticed due to sb speed on maps like legacy you can take the quickest route (through mid) while remaining unnoticed.

stunlock guardians: quite easy, if traited they have what 3 seconds of stab, triggered on their block so ur not gunnah be hitting through it anyways? if dodged… dunno what to say but if u have troubles landing a 1/4 skill, no offence, but you may need to revisit how/when you are using your skills

boon from Mesmer only useful when you see them? A. meta pvp builds are not using any stealth, B. if you can’t land your steal again, revisit how/when you are using your skills.

Revs: it allows you to deal out 4k damage per 4×2 is 8 plus slow is a nice little addition though can be quickly cleansed the real use of the skill is to be able to keep pressure up while playing outside sword skill range (unrelenting and precision) as it takes two burst rotations to down a rev due to infuse light or crystal hibernation (assuming you opened with basi venom on the latter)

either way, as I made it clear in my first post, as well as this follow up, it’s opinion and play style that opens up the want and usefulness that improv brings, I never claimed it to be better then exec, I did however state that I myself, find improv much more flexible, granting you understand the options it opens up utility wise and how you can change your approach to fights both in team fights and 1-1.

Disclaimer: I mentioned team fights, no I don’t think thief belongs in the thick of things, yes I do believe improv can help turn the tides by situations I have previously stated however by being aware of your surroundings and taking advantage of specific stolen skills.

again I will state, no it is not the be all end all must have trait. Yes it is a viable choice and do not feel obliged to take exec, perhaps it doesn’t fit your playstyle, that’s cool friend! but don’t snuff your nose at the trait because of it, thieves have enough damage multipliers and in my case, I choose utility. Opinions man, that’s what keeps things fresh!

TheNickPrice.8457:

Much thought Sir Vincent…

Outstealth in PvP: If you meet up with enemy thief decapping your home lets say and he decides to stay for a duel it’s a nice addition to your bag of tricks, you can also use it to your advantage in other situations, ex.) beat thief at your home, pass through mid -> far for decap unnoticed due to sb speed on maps like legacy you can take the quickest route (through mid) while remaining unnoticed.

The point is, that’s already doable without Improv. If the stolen item from a Thief grants shadowstep instead of stealth, I’d be a true believer of Improv. Stealth has no value in PvP. The single use of the item is more than enough. The main usefulness of Improv. is its ability to reset utility skills even if you choose it for other reasons.

stunlock guardians: quite easy, if traited they have what 3 seconds of stab, triggered on their block so ur not gunnah be hitting through it anyways? if dodged… dunno what to say but if u have troubles landing a 1/4 skill, no offence, but you may need to revisit how/when you are using your skills

If a Guardian gets stun-locked, then they should revisit how to play a Guardian.

boon from Mesmer only useful when you see them? A. meta pvp builds are not using any stealth, B. if you can’t land your steal again, revisit how/when you are using your skills.

Right…because every Mesmer uses the meta build…ok.

Revs: it allows you to deal out 4k damage per 4×2 is 8 plus slow is a nice little addition though can be quickly cleansed the real use of the skill is to be able to keep pressure up while playing outside sword skill range (unrelenting and precision) as it takes two burst rotations to down a rev due to infuse light or crystal hibernation (assuming you opened with basi venom on the latter)

If you say so.

either way, as I made it clear in my first post, as well as this follow up, it’s opinion and play style that opens up the want and usefulness that improv brings, I never claimed it to be better then exec, I did however state that I myself, find improv much more flexible, granting you understand the options it opens up utility wise and how you can change your approach to fights both in team fights and 1-1.

Disclaimer: I mentioned team fights, no I don’t think thief belongs in the thick of things, yes I do believe improv can help turn the tides by situations I have previously stated however by being aware of your surroundings and taking advantage of specific stolen skills.

again I will state, no it is not the be all end all must have trait. Yes it is a viable choice and do not feel obliged to take exec, perhaps it doesn’t fit your playstyle, that’s cool friend! but don’t snuff your nose at the trait because of it, thieves have enough damage multipliers and in my case, I choose utility. Opinions man, that’s what keeps things fresh!

However, you are responding to a post in discussion of the limited choices based on build that certain build has no choice but to pick either a build specific trait or weapon specific trait. If you choose to take Improv. then that is indeed your choice based on your opinion of the trait, but it will not be considered as best in slot because it is fairly obvious, backed with mathematical facts, that Executioner is best in slot for power build. As for condition damage build, there is but one choice, Potent.