I should be writing.
Proposal: Steal 3 Items, Use 1
Did you come up with this idea yourself or did you steal mine?
Did you come up with this idea yourself or did you steal mine?
He stole three, tossed two aside and used this one to post it here!
I like it, that should definitely be a thing.
Sure…. like every Thief in WvW doesn’t use steal as a gap closer. How about just remove steal if it’s underused then? Thieves don’t need another gap closer.
[AwM] of Jade Quarry.
Not sure about PvE, but steal is used quite a lot in PvP/WvW.
Second Child
Sure…. like every Thief in WvW doesn’t use steal as a gap closer. How about just remove steal if it’s underused then? Thieves don’t need another gap closer.
Thieves can use Steal for all sorts of things, depending on the enemy they’re facing.
If I’m fighting a Ranger, heck yeah I’ll steal some free Regeneration.
He’s not saying it’s underused, he’s saying its use can be improved a little.
He’s not saying it’s underused, he’s saying its use can be improved a little.
The Steal mechanic is underused by many players due to the lack of control over the results.
Second Child
The Steal mechanic is underused by many players due to the lack of control over the results.
lol wut. Steal from any class and you know exactly what you’re gonna get. Besides, 30 trickery and you have aoe 10sec might/fury/swiftness, 2 boon strip which prioritizes stab+aegis and is aoe shared, a daze and +2 initiative all in a gap closer, no animation instant cast skill every 20 seconds. No decent PvPer would ever say it needs a buff.
elite specs ruined pvp.
The Steal mechanic is underused by many players due to the lack of control over the results.
lol wut. Steal from any class and you know exactly what you’re gonna get. Besides, 30 trickery and you have aoe 10sec might/fury/swiftness, 2 boon strip which prioritizes stab+aegis and is aoe shared, a daze and +2 initiative all in a gap closer, no animation instant cast skill every 20 seconds. No decent PvPer would ever say it needs a buff.
Pvpers do and they say it because a profession that relies heavily on utility could use more utility. And right now steal barely has any. It is a simple Fire-and-Forget mechanic that solely exists to turn thieves into thieves.
Pvpers do and they say it because a profession that relies heavily on utility could use more utility. And right now steal barely has any. It is a simple Fire-and-Forget mechanic that solely exists to turn thieves into thieves.
Did you miss the part where steal is an instant gap close, boon sharing/stripping machine that dazes and regenerates initiative? Not to mention the stolen skill extremely useful (bar engi). That’s enough utility for a single skill. It’s only a ‘fire-and-forget’ skill to the bad thieves, but in the hands of a good player it’s extremely devastating.
elite specs ruined pvp.
Did you miss the part where steal is an instant gap close, boon sharing/stripping machine that dazes and regenerates initiative? Not to mention the stolen skill extremely useful (bar engi). That’s enough utility for a single skill. It’s only a ‘fire-and-forget’ skill to the bad thieves, but in the hands of a good player it’s extremely devastating.
yeah, boons, dazes, regen etc etc
all of that available under only one trait build.
W/o it?
Fire and forget.
Don’t tell me you’re assuming that only good players are using one trait line just to buff up 1 skill and the rest are just bad?
Did I ever tell you, the definition, of Insanity?
Did you miss the part where steal is an instant gap close, boon sharing/stripping machine that dazes and regenerates initiative? Not to mention the stolen skill extremely useful (bar engi). That’s enough utility for a single skill. It’s only a ‘fire-and-forget’ skill to the bad thieves, but in the hands of a good player it’s extremely devastating.
yeah, boons, dazes, regen etc etc
all of that available under only one trait build.
W/o it?
Fire and forget.Don’t tell me you’re assuming that only good players are using one trait line just to buff up 1 skill and the rest are just bad?
Even without traiting into trickery, steal is still very strong. The instant gap closer is already enough to make it a very viable skill. In addition, many of the stolen abilities are very good — gain all boons, 3 seconds of fear, projectile reflection + heavy damage, etc. It just becomes even better with trickery.
OP’s concern doesn’t seem to be about PvP/WvW, as there’s no randomness about stolen abilities when fighting other classes. He seems primarily concerned about stealing in PvE, where he’s unsure of what he’ll get and whether it’ll be useful.
That said, steal doesn’t need a buff. In a PvP/WvW environment, it’s already strong without trickery, and absolutely amazing with trickery.
Second Child
The Steal mechanic is underused by many players due to the lack of control over the results.
lol wut. Steal from any class and you know exactly what you’re gonna get. Besides, 30 trickery and you have aoe 10sec might/fury/swiftness, 2 boon strip which prioritizes stab+aegis and is aoe shared, a daze and +2 initiative all in a gap closer, no animation instant cast skill every 20 seconds. No decent PvPer would ever say it needs a buff.
So you’re saying, you either spec of steal or you’re a baddie? That’s a terrible mentality to have, class diversity should not force someone to make their profession mechanic useful for more than a gap closer. If we were given F2-F4 for us to rack up some stolen skills and use them on our terms rather than have it cover up steal it would open a ton of doors. Often I untarget and just toss stolen skills because so many of them have no place in a fight.
Necro doesn’t have to spec for DS, they get an instant cast fear, aoe immobilize, etc and a 2nd health bar to help them survive.
Warrior can choose their burst skills to a degree, and almost all of them are really good and entirely fit the role of the weapon (hammer stuns, axe hits hard, lb causes condi, rifle snipes)
Guardian gets 3 universal virtues. None of them are useless when not spec’ed, and also offer passive bonuses.
Ranger gets a pet which they can choose. Only problem is pets are soo clunky but the april patch may help a little (doubt it will fix them though). Atleast they have options to play with, and don’t need to go down BM to make use of them.
Mesmer gets 4 shatter skills, all of which have their use. Daze is universal, distortion for avoiding burst, flat dps for zerkers or confusion for condi.
Elementalist gets double the weapon skills, each having a role. There are some pretty good bonuses from each attunement providing many options to swap to during a fight.
Engineer can get some really strong tool belt skills, some even stun break. On top of that, they are chosen based off utility and healing skill choice, and go along the theme of those skills fairly well.
Thief gets a gap closer and a pre determined stolen skill if steal makes contact and you aren’t blinded/blocked/evaded.
You can’t look at traits that buff profession mechanics as a measure of balance, because everyone can spec for their profession mechanics. When a thief doesn’kittens not nearly as rewarding as the others.
“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”
Pvpers do and they say it because a profession that relies heavily on utility could use more utility. And right now steal barely has any. It is a simple Fire-and-Forget mechanic that solely exists to turn thieves into thieves.
Did you miss the part where steal is an instant gap close, boon sharing/stripping machine that dazes and regenerates initiative? Not to mention the stolen skill extremely useful (bar engi). That’s enough utility for a single skill. It’s only a ‘fire-and-forget’ skill to the bad thieves, but in the hands of a good player it’s extremely devastating.
You know what else is a gap closer?
Heartseeker, Infiltrator’s signet, Infiltrator’s arrow, Infiltrator Strike, Shadowstep, Shadow Shot, Shadow Pursuit and Scorpion Wire. Each of them has multiple uses (aka utility).
Steal (untraited) is a gap closer that places an item in your “pocket”. This item is single use and can perform simple actions like granting boons or inflicting conditions etc. (aka fire-and-forget).
What annoys me about it is that there are so many traits that could be used to enhance it that doing so would turn it from a gap closer that grants you a random item into a Daze, healing, damage, stealth + blind, rip boons a/o gain fury/might/vigor/swiftness/initiative on one button. Its like our underwhelming signets traited into might access or venoms that suck worse than our traps until you have venomshare?
Like who would care about what steal/venoms/signets do when they can do all this other crap.
Why have them then?
(edited by Zacchary.6183)
Don’t tell me you’re assuming that only good players are using one trait line just to buff up 1 skill and the rest are just bad?
Nope. You missed my entire point. The option for Steal to be strong is there. Saying it’s underpowered and needs a buff because you decided not to go down that trait line is ridiculous.
snip
Thief gets a gap closer and a pre determined stolen skill if steal makes contact and you aren’t blinded/blocked/evaded.
Untraited, a thief gets a gap closer that also grants one of the following:
- 10 second Chill. Good thing attunement recharge is also affected by chill, yay balance.
- Projectile reflect with massive pbaoe damage. It’s better than a Warrior’s own axe 5.
- Heal/Cleanse water field.
- Longest fear in the game, also pbaoe.
- Longest single target daze in the game.
- On demand stealth+blind.
- All boons.
Don’t try argue any of these aren’t useful in most scenarios lolol.
And need I remind you steal isn’t a Thief’s only mechanic? You have initiative too. That alone is insanely strong and, in my honest opinion, gamebreaking.
1. You know what else is a gap closer? Heartseeker, Infiltrator’s signet, Infiltrator’s arrow, Infiltrator Strike, Shadowstep, Shadow Shot, Shadow Pursuit and Scorpion Wire. Each of them has multiple uses (aka utility).
2. Steal (untraited) is a gap closer that places an item in your “pocket”. This item is single use and can perform simple actions like granting boons or inflicting conditions etc. (aka fire-and-forget).
3. What annoys me about it is that there are so many traits that could be used to enhance it that doing so would turn it from a gap closer that grants you a random item into a Daze, healing, damage, stealth + blind, rip boons a/o gain fury/might/vigor/swiftness/initiative on one button. Its like our underwhelming signets traited into might access or venoms that suck worse than our traps until you have venomshare? Like who would care about what steal/venoms/signets do when they can do all this other crap.
Why have them then?
1. Yeah, screw ANet for giving Thieves access to so many mobility skills!
2. Mesmer shatters do a simple action, you use f1 the clones explode; fire and forget. You build adrenaline and use your burst skill; fire and forget. You use your wolf howl and they get feared; fire and forget. I pop my VoJ and now my next attack inflicts burning; fire and forget.
How is this even a valid argument? lol
3. Build diversity.
elite specs ruined pvp.
(edited by Renny.6571)
Untraited, a thief gets a gap closer that also grants one of the following:
- 10 second Chill. Good thing attunement recharge is also affected by chill, yay balance.
- Projectile reflect with massive pbaoe damage. It’s better than a Warrior’s own axe 5.
- Heal/Cleanse water field.
- Longest fear in the game, also pbaoe.
- Longest single target daze in the game.
- On demand stealth+blind.
- All boons.
Don’t try argue any of these aren’t useful in most scenarios lolol.
In general PvE, most of those are useless, if not a flat-out hindrance when playing with a group. I already do enough chill and group healing with my venoms. Long dazes are only helpful against difficult enemies—which are uncommon—and mostly annoy players using confusion or retaliation. That long fear does little more than irritate other players who are trying to attack those targets, especially considering melee.
This doesn’t mean those stolen items don’t have areas and builds where they’re useful, but I hope you understand that for many players, their utility is highly circumstantial.
I should be writing.
stuff
1.) Yup. At least I don’t have to wait ~35 seconds for a gap closer when I have weapon skills. Much shadowstep. Very mobiliteez. Wow.
2.) You can also use your clones and phantasms as meat shields, diversions and a source of constant regen. Perhaps even support them with mantra builds. Ever thought of that? That is called utility.
Build adrenaline to 3 bars, use Flurry, cancel early, beat the crap out of them while they are immobilized. Build adrenaline, Fire combustive shot, plant a banner (or do some other blast finisher) in fire field for AoE might. That is called utility.
As for ranger, yeah all of them are fire-and-forgets, sept it isn’t like steal which is “press F1 to omgwtfbbq your target and gain an item”. Using it requires as much brainpower as playing a warrior. Thieves do not want to be crappy warriors.
My point is in bold.
3.) Lol there is no such thing as build diversity for venoms. Slotting one venom without heavily traiting for it is about as useful as Assassin Signet’s active. That 15% damage is the equivalent to about 190-200 power on a power build but you lose it in kittens.
highly circumstantial.
Keywords here. The more circumstantial something is, the less people are going to use it. That’s why thieves have 7 traits for venoms. Because venoms suck. That’s why thieves have the most powerful signet trait in the game. Because signets are almost a waste of a slot. That’s why steal has 9 traits for it. Because it doesn’t really do much for the thief besides make it a thief.
(edited by Zacchary.6183)
Because it doesn’t really do much for the thief besides make it a thief.
Or more accurately, it’s the only thing making a thief not an assassin.
I should be writing.
The Steal mechanic is underused by many players due to the lack of control over the results. My proposal is to update the mechanic to let thieves steal 3 items, and choose which one they want to use.
- F1: Steal
- This immediately gives you 3 items, filling the F2-4 slots.
- Press again to drop all items and reduce cooldown by a few seconds. Sometimes you just need access to the Steal command again, for its stun break or other properties.
- F2-4: Use item
- The items stolen would still be semi-random based on enemy type, except that you get a handful, (literally), to choose from. When you use one of them, the others are immediately tossed aside.
This change would have a relatively small impact on balance. The goal is to give players some choice and control, making Steal more tactical, practical, and desirable.
F2 10 second Chill. Good thing attunement recharge is also affected by chill, yay balance.
F3 Projectile reflect with massive pbaoe damage. It’s better than a Warrior’s own axe 5.
F4 Heal/Cleanse water field.
F5 Longest fear in the game, also pbaoe.
F6 Longest single target daze in the game.
F7 On demand stealth+blind.
F8 All boons.
F9 Instant kill Warrior
F10 Perma-stealth
Steal separates the thieves from the wannabe assassins, nuf said.
He’s not saying it’s underused, he’s saying its use can be improved a little.
The Steal mechanic is underused by many players due to the lack of control over the results.
Lemme rephrase that: “I don’t think it’s underused, but I think it can be improved, therefore I agree with the suggestion”
snip
Thief gets a gap closer and a pre determined stolen skill if steal makes contact and you aren’t blinded/blocked/evaded.Untraited, a thief gets a gap closer that also grants one of the following:
- 10 second Chill. Good thing attunement recharge is also affected by chill, yay balance.
- Projectile reflect with massive pbaoe damage. It’s better than a Warrior’s own axe 5.
- Heal/Cleanse water field.
- Longest fear in the game, also pbaoe.
- Longest single target daze in the game.
- On demand stealth+blind.
- All boons.
Don’t try argue any of these aren’t useful in most scenarios lolol.
And need I remind you steal isn’t a Thief’s only mechanic? You have initiative too. That alone is insanely strong and, in my honest opinion, gamebreaking.
Except you don’t get those by choice, you steal from a warrior you get whirling axe, not a pamphlet of choices. Also whirling axe does little to no good on a condi thief, so it turns from a dps skill to a highly circumstantial skill for a whirl+projectile reflect which you can never really work with. In the mean time, you can’t dodge out of it so for melee classes, your just a ballerina trying to get unstuck while it covers your 35 second gap closer.
Only a few stolen skills are universal, yet still not 100% in your control. You can’t run into a 2v1 and assume 1 is a Mesmer and get all boons to deal with cc chains. Steal and initiative are part of the thief kit, make quick decisions. Waltz into a 2v1 vs necro and say engi, you can make the obvious decision to steal from necro and fear them both. Walz into a fight against a guardian and ele, basically neither one is all that good. The chill could be 100 seconds long, condi cleanse is soo easy on an ele, 4 second daze is good compared to most dazes, yet still not that much of an impact (4 seconds goes rather quick). Point is, steal should not be covered up by potentially meaningless skills.
Also none of the stolen skills are impossible to counter.
-Ranger water field: Rain AoE on the spot, don’t stand near it or they can spam hs in it and keep healing while hitting you or spam cluster bomb. Stand back and ranged if you don’t have a ton of AoE, they will just be wasting time standing in the field and won’t out-regen your dps with blast finishers.
-Elementalist chill: cleanse? You’re an ele…..
-Guardian Daze: Deal with it, its a melee daze unless you’re standing still rezzing someone it won’t do you much harm, and almost all run shelter so good luck interrupting the heal.
-Engineer gunk: For condi basically or a quick chaos armor but won’t last all that long anyways unless you mange to lock them on top of the field. Overall not that effective.
-Warrior whirling axe: Still vulnerable to melee, and cc. See a thief spinning axes? How about stop pressing 1-5 on your lb, #3 and burst are the only ones that can hit for that duration.
- Mesmer Ectoplasm: You have instant cast dazes, don’t just spam them just because. Also you’re a Mesmer, you basically eat thief for breakfast on the same skill level.
-Necormancer: You have a fear too, which has the same cd as a steal spec thief assuming they always targeted you with it. Save you fear for when they use it, considering it is the longest cc they have against you, BV lasts half the time (at melee range).
These are assuming you have troubles in dealing with thief 1v1 who keeps stealing from you. Otherwise use your skills in shutting them down because thief is not tanky, they just evade or stealth a lot (or both).
“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”
(edited by NinjaEd.3946)
The Steal mechanic is underused by many players due to the lack of control over the results.
lol wut. Steal from any class and you know exactly what you’re gonna get. Besides, 30 trickery and you have aoe 10sec might/fury/swiftness, 2 boon strip which prioritizes stab+aegis and is aoe shared, a daze and +2 initiative all in a gap closer, no animation instant cast skill every 20 seconds. No decent PvPer would ever say it needs a buff.
I would expect any ability I invest 3 out of 7 traits into to perform admirably at the minimum, regardless of class.
That being said, the steal mechanic itself is more than fine when traited (there might be merit in a discussion of slightly stronger base Steal and slightly weaker traits). The stolen ability could use a little work – some are already magnificent….others, not so much. I like the idea of each class stolen from offering a set item for each slot.
F2 – Direct damage oriented – works well for power/crit builds.
F3 – Condition damage oriented – works well for condition based builds.
F4 – Support – not tailored for either build, just offers some sort of support item.
That way whirling axe isn’t mostly useless for condition build, and throw gunk isn’t mostly useless for a power/crit build.
If you’re a thief and haven’t
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.
pre-ordered HOT at this point,
save yourself the money and don’t bother.
(edited by evilapprentice.6379)
I like the idea of each class stolen from offering a set item for each slot.
F2 – Direct damage oriented – works well for power/crit builds.
F3 – Condition damage oriented – works well for condition based builds.
F4 – Support – not tailored for either build, just offers some sort of support item.That way whirling axe isn’t mostly useless for condition build, and throw gunk isn’t mostly useless for a power/crit build.
I was thinking of something like that, but using the existing soft trinity: damage, control, and support.
Also, keep in mind that enemies only have professions in PvP. Stolen items in PvE are semi-random—depending on creature—and pulled from a much longer list: 26 different items, as opposed to 8.
I should be writing.
I like the idea of each class stolen from offering a set item for each slot.
F2 – Direct damage oriented – works well for power/crit builds.
F3 – Condition damage oriented – works well for condition based builds.
F4 – Support – not tailored for either build, just offers some sort of support item.That way whirling axe isn’t mostly useless for condition build, and throw gunk isn’t mostly useless for a power/crit build.
I was thinking of something like that, but using the existing soft trinity: damage, control, and support.
Also, keep in mind that enemies only have professions in PvP. Stolen items in PvE are semi-random—depending on creature—and pulled from a much longer list: 26 different items, as opposed to 8.
Maybe they could change what predetermined item you steal depending on your chosen stats.
If you have a bunch of healing power, the stolen skill is more support like (steal from ele get an on-demand frost aura for example).
If you have a bunch of condition damage, something along the lines of condition (example of ele, burning rock to apply burn)
If you have a bunch of precision, something more direct damage related (example of ele, the basic 10 sec chill).
Atleast the stolen skills would be more catered towards your build. Although a set of 3 and 1 to choose would certainly give a lot of tools for the thief to play with, like as a power build you may still want the frost aura, options are always nice.
A suggestion I’ve heard a while back, turn infiltrator’s signet into steal, as in while off cooldown gain 1 initiative every 10 seconds and remove the stun break part. This would simply require a change of the passive for infiltrator’s signet. Initiative is universal, so if said thief didn’t care to use steal as just a gap closer (say they don’t trait for steal), they can know it is benefiting them still. It may require a rework on initiative once more however which is wise to leave alone so things don’t start shifting all too quick.
“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”
(edited by NinjaEd.3946)
Also whirling axe does little to no good on a condi thief, so it turns from a dps skill to a highly circumstantial skill for a whirl+projectile reflect which you can never really work with. In the mean time, you can’t dodge out of it so for melee classes, your just a ballerina trying to get unstuck while it covers your 35 second gap closer.
Whirling axe is good even on condi thieves. Whirl in a poison or smoke field. Reflects warriors’ pin down/kill shot, engi pistols, thief pistols, mesmer wind of chaos/iduelists, ranger lb knockback, and more. And if you wanna cancel it, just autoattack… why would you want to use up a dodge for that anyway?
Also none of the stolen skills are impossible to counter.
Isn’t that a good thing? Why do you want something that’s impossible to counter? Play and counterplay makes fights more interesting. And, for the record, most other profession mechanics have counterplay mechanics as well — dodge/blink to avoid shatters, take the flurry and return the bleeds to the warrior, and spam /laugh at ranger pets.
Most of the stolen abilities are really good. Just because there’s counterplay doesn’t change that fact.
Second Child
(edited by mango.9267)
Also whirling axe does little to no good on a condi thief, so it turns from a dps skill to a highly circumstantial skill for a whirl+projectile reflect which you can never really work with. In the mean time, you can’t dodge out of it so for melee classes, your just a ballerina trying to get unstuck while it covers your 35 second gap closer.
Whirling axe is good even on condi thieves. Whirl in a poison or smoke field. Reflects warriors’ pin down/kill shot, engi pistols, thief pistols, mesmer wind of chaos/iduelists, ranger lb knockback, and more. And if you wanna cancel it, just autoattack… why would you want to use up a dodge for that anyway?
Also none of the stolen skills are impossible to counter.
Isn’t that a good thing? Why do you want something that’s impossible to counter? Play and counterplay makes fights more interesting. And, for the record, most other profession mechanics have counterplay mechanics as well — dodge/blink to avoid shatters, take the flurry and return the bleeds to the warrior, and spam /laugh at ranger pets.
Most of the stolen abilities are really good. Just because there’s counterplay doesn’t change that fact.
Like i said though, circumstantial but also in the way of steal and can’t be canceled once used when activated.
I dint mean tht stolen skills should be impossible to counter, was stating that the stolen skills are not as op as people claim. I’m sure uve seen “stolen skills op” threads, when its really not if people are open minded. The fact that they are not broken means letting us have the stolen skill(s) fill up f2 or more would not lead to broken combinations if done carefully.
“I’m waiting for the staff to get off their lunch
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”
break. I feel like they should be back by now..”
Like i said though, circumstantial but also in the way of steal and can’t be canceled once used when activated.
Just so we’re on the same page, the warrior steal CAN be cancelled by autoattacking during the spin. It can also be cancelled by using any other skill/utility. It’s just not like dagger storm where you can cancel by dodging, which is probably a good thing, since you want to be saving your dodges.
Second Child