Guild Wars 2

This list of changes comes from my own personal experience as a thief. I’m open to suggestions and so anything constructive anyone has to say is most welcome.

Currently, I feel that the thief has two viable center weapon sets: Sword/Dagger, and Dagger/Pistol, while Shortbow does provide good utility and situational AoE. Sword/Pistol has a very high skill floor due to the lack of evades and stealth. Pistol/Dagger is decent for condition application, Dagger/Dagger is gimmicky, and Pistol/Pistol is a broken weapon combination (it just doesn’t work).

Thief’s utilities are in a worse place than its weapons: Deceptions and Tricks are the most useful and are in the best place generally. Signets are decent, but lack stunbreaks meaning that they are really most useful for the cheesy instagib basilisk build. Traps (other than shadow trap) hardly ever see use in competitive play due to the fact that they are not stunbreakers, and simply do not give enough for the valuable space they take up. Finally, venoms other than Devourer and Basilisk are incredibly weak in both PvE and PvP.

What my changes aim to do:

-Reduce the amount of ‘trash traits’
-Increase the ability of the thief to stack vulnerability (thereby increasing its ability to set up burst mid-fight, and not just at the beginning)
-Increase thief’s ability to apply condition pressure through the use of torment and poison as well as venom usage
-Bring the Pistol/Pistol weapon set to a better place
-Help the thief’s kiting potential through venoms, traps, and traitable range on pistol and shortbow.
-Give the thief access to strategies that rely on midfight tactics, not on how the fight is initiated

My thoughts on proposed nerfs to D/P and S/D: In its current state, most thieves are absolutely forced to rely on stealth spamming or perma evade to stay alive, and that’s why these weapon sets are chosen. If the thief was changed to making kiting as well as a more upfront style of fighting viable, then nerfs to these weapons would be more acceptable to the thief community.

And finally, my list of changes:

*Traits with ~ in front of them means I do not like them and I want people to suggest changes, both to the boring names, and to their general ineffectiveness
*Some grandmaster traits have been removed, so I also appreciate suggestions for new grandmaster traits.

Deadly Arts

5 Lotus Poison: Weaken targets when you poison them
15 Exposed Weakness: Deal 10% more damage if your target has a condition
25 Serpent’s Touch: Stealing applies poison and torment for 10 seconds

I Back Fighting
II Corrosive Traps: Traps apply 10 stacks of vulnerability (8 seconds) when triggered
III Mug
IV Venomous Strength: When applied, venoms grant 2 stacks of might for 10 seconds
V Potent Poison
VI Quick Venoms: Venoms recharge 20% faster and last an extra strike
VII Improvisation
VIII Sundering Strikes: 66% chance to cause vulnerability on critical hits (1s cooldown)
IX ~Dagger Training
X ~Combined Training
XI Panic Strike: ICD changed to 20 seconds
XII ()

Critical Strikes

Minor Traits
5 Keen Observer
15 Opportunist
25 First Strikes

I Furious Retaliation
II Signets of Power
III Side Strike
IV New Trait Marksman: Pistol range is increased to 1200
V Pistol Mastery
VI ~Practiced Tolerance
VII Ankle Shots Critical hits with a pistol have a 50% chance to cripple foes for 4 secs (10 second CD)
VIII Signet Use
IX ~Combo Critical Chance
X New trait Critical Urgency Gain 2 seconds of quickness when health drops under 25% (60 second CD)
XI Hidden Killer
XII Executioner

Shadow Arts

Minor Traits
5 Last Refuge
15 Meld with Shadows
25 Hidden Assassin

I Master of Deception
II Slowed Pulse
III Shadow Protector: Change regeneration to protection
IV Shadow’s Embrace
V Infusion of Shadow
VI Cloaked in Shadow
VII Power shots: Shortbow and harpoon gun damage is increased by 10%, shortbow range is increased by 100.
VIII Hidden Thief
XI -New Trait- Shadow Venom: Every strike of venom has a 33% chance to blind for 2 seconds
X Patience
XI Shadow’s Rejuvenation
XII Venomous Aura

Acrobatics

Minor Traits
5 Expeditious Dodger
15 Feline Grace
25 Fluid Strikes

I Descent of Shadows
II Power of Inertia
III Vigorous Recovery
IV Assassin’s Retreat: Gain swiftness whenever your health drops below 50%, 10 second cooldown
V Master Trapper
VI Fleet Shadow: This trait is broken and needs to be fixed
VII Fleet of Foot
VIII Pain Response: Add 1 stack of might for every condition removed in addition to regeneration
IX Quick Recovery
X Assassin’s Reward
XI Hard to Catch
XII ()

Trickery

Minor Traits
5 Kleptomaniac
15 Preparedness
25 Lead Attacks

I Merciful Ambush
II Trickster: Moved from Master Tier
III Uncatchable
IV Flanking Strikes
V Thrill of the Crime
VI Long Reach
VII Bountiful Theft
VIII Instinctual Response: Reduce ICD to 30 seconds, moved from Adept tier
XI ~Initial Strike
X Ricochet
XI ~Hastened Replenishment
XII Sleight of Hand

Heal Changes:

Signet of Malice: Increase passive healing by 15%

Utility Changes:

Spider Venom: CD reduced to 30 seconds
Skale Venom: CD reduced to 35 seconds, Vulnerability increased to 5 stacks
Ice Drake Venom: CD reduced to 35 seconds
Devourer Venom: CD reduced to 35 seconds
Needle Trap: CD reduced to 20 seconds
Tripwire: CD reduced to 25 seconds
Signet of Shadows: Add stunbreaker
Infiltrator’s Signet: 2 initiative every 10 seconds

Weapon Changes:

Pistol
Vital Shot: Increase speed by 10%
Body Shot: Vulnerability lasts an extra second
Headshot: Reduce iniative cost to 3

Dagger
Dancing Dagger: Change initiative to 4, add 1 stack of torment for 3 seconds

Stealth is killing this class.

“Sword/Pistol has a very high skill floor due to the lack of evades and stealth”.

Usually you have 15s vigor out of 21s (steal with 30 trickery), swiftness, might and fury 10s out of 21s, coupled with IS, PW, Disabling shot on SB and IA (which can be used very good offensively providing you a teleport + aoe blind), with the base evades and Withdraw 15s I think that’s plenty to build on.

Regarding stealth for S/P & SB, my basic slots are Blinding powder, ShadowStep and Shadow Refuge. So I have 2 stealths on demand plus BPs+CB for another aoe stealth (which I can cut short or push to 9s depending on situation). Not counting stealing options.

S/D with SB doesn’t have same staying power / evade frames like double S/D (check Jumper-x), and even then, you are not invulnerable, there are breaks between evade frames when CC / conditions / burst can come in, is really not that hard to land stuff on a S/D if you learn the patterns, but yes is frustrating for spammers / new players to get evaded evaded

IS is a signet that is a stun breaker. Seems you don’t know that.

Smo.6520:

IS is a signet that is a stun breaker. Seems you don’t know that.

Yes, I’m aware. The other three are not.

Anelyn.4593:

“Sword/Pistol has a very high skill floor due to the lack of evades and stealth”.

Usually you have 15s vigor out of 21s (steal with 30 trickery), swiftness, might and fury 10s out of 21s, coupled with IS, PW, Disabling shot on SB and IA (which can be used very good offensively providing you a teleport + aoe blind), with the base evades and Withdraw 15s I think that’s plenty to build on.

Regarding stealth for S/P & SB, my basic slots are Blinding powder, ShadowStep and Shadow Refuge. So I have 2 stealths on demand plus BPs+CB for another aoe stealth (which I can cut short or push to 9s depending on situation). Not counting stealing options.

S/D with SB doesn’t have same staying power / evade frames like double S/D (check Jumper-x), and even then, you are not invulnerable, there are breaks between evade frames when CC / conditions / burst can come in, is really not that hard to land stuff on a S/D if you learn the patterns, but yes is frustrating for spammers / new players to get evaded evaded

Thanks for the input, I use primarily D/P for PvP. I have fought against a few good Pistol whip thieves who were very hard to beat, but in general the weapon set up seems to be used by a small minority. Jumper is really the only thief I’ve ever seen play extremely well with S/D, even though apparently many thieves have success with it.

I feel Signet of Agility should also be made into a stun-breaker, or at least have an additional condition cleanse since it’s one of the few condition removals thieves have that are not tied to the stealth mechanic.

Also… as much as I would love it, you DO NOT want to give me 1200 range on my P/P thief.

I dont like your threads name, stop copying me unless youre going to post a lot of math.

wish.1027:

I dont like your threads name, stop copying me unless youre going to post a lot of math.

Ah, I just saw your thread. I’ll change my title.

We have Is, Shadowstep, and shadowtrap as stun breakers. One Signet, one trap, one deception. It’s a pattern. One stun break in each utility category, except for venoms of course. To add a stun break to another signet would have to remove an ability from it to prevent it from being OP. Can you imagine signer of agility breaking stun refilling endurance and curing multiple conditions? Just wow

TeamBattleAxe.3901:

I feel Signet of Agility should also be made into a stun-breaker, or at least have an additional condition cleanse since it’s one of the few condition removals thieves have that are not tied to the stealth mechanic.

Also… as much as I would love it, you DO NOT want to give me 1200 range on my P/P thief.

I agree that Signet of Agility should have a stunbreak, and I’ll add that to the changes. Although, that should probably raise the cooldown by 15-30 seconds. I also think that a stunbreak would be appropriate on Signet of Shadows since the signet active is very weak.

P/P is a difficult set to know where to begin with. For starters, in PvE, shortbow is by far a better option in my opinion due to the fact that cluster bomb is AoE as well as a blast finisher, which works great with eles and guards in dungeons. P/P #3 is really not that great because it uses a lot of initiative on easily evaded damage which also can be thrown back easily by retaliation. Pistol #2 is ok in PvE, and not worth it in PvP. Then in addition, the autoattack is most often used as a condition based attack. Pistol offhand is good, just for #5 and #4 is useful if you know what to interrupt. P/P also has no mobility which is something that cant be said of any other thief weapon combination. Sure, if you go glass cannon and try to gun down other glass builds with Unload, you will get lucky every once in a while, but the point is that P/P as it stands is the weakest Thief weapon set and needs to be buffed to see competitive play.

Smo.6520:

We have Is, Shadowstep, and shadowtrap as stun breakers. One Signet, one trap, one deception. It’s a pattern. One stun break in each utility category, except for venoms of course. To add a stun break to another signet would have to remove an ability from it to prevent it from being OP. Can you imagine signer of agility breaking stun refilling endurance and curing multiple conditions? Just wow

Haste and Roll for Initiative are both tricks and both are stunbreakers. Shadowtrap is not a stunbreaker, it shadowsteps you to the target, stunned or not. And last I heard Anet is considering adding a cast time to the shadowstep as well.

I do agree that if a stunbreak was added to signet of agility it might make it OP unless there was some balancing done.

It would probably work better with Signet of Shadows because thief already has many mobility options available making the 25% worse than it would be on other classes, as well as the fact that 1 blind isn’t that great of a signet active

[P/P] –
1 .Body shot applies 5s weakness instead of 3s Vulnerability
2. Ricochet either made to be 100% on first bounce, 50% on second, or move it to adept trait.
3. Black powder has a small AOE anyway, have it place the pulsing blind AOE on yourself and any enemy hit by it (might make D/P too strong tho)
4. Change Unload to be 2 staged like FS/LS, first stage is the same as it is now, second is a dancing AOE attack (Gun-kata like) with an evade and does more damage based on how many conditions the target has. Only 1s allotted time after Unload stage 1 is completed to activate stage 2 before it reverts to stage 1 on the bar

I think P/P should look something like this (just not as OP) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2KJHysK6k8

[Signet of Shadow]
Activate: Gain Swiftness for 15s and blind nearby enemies
Passive: Ignore combat speed reduction

[Withdraw] + [ Roll for init]
1. Increase dodge distance (basically reverting a nerf)

[Signet of Agility]
1. Breaks stuns on activation
2. Removes a set 3 conditions on activation
3. Passive increases the length of all evade frames (on abilities) by 1/2s (or 1/4s if that is too OP) instead of precision

infantrydiv.1620:

Smo.6520:

We have Is, Shadowstep, and shadowtrap as stun breakers. One Signet, one trap, one deception. It’s a pattern. One stun break in each utility category, except for venoms of course. To add a stun break to another signet would have to remove an ability from it to prevent it from being OP. Can you imagine signer of agility breaking stun refilling endurance and curing multiple conditions? Just wow

I do agree that if a stunbreak was added to signet of agility it might make it OP unless there was some balancing done.

Someone ran some tests with Signet of Agility in a previous thread and found that it only cures one of your conditions no matter how many allies are around. With all of the conditions in the game (and factoring in future conditions being added like Torment was), SoA is extremely underpowered. It makes it even worse that you can’t choose which condition to remove, so there’s no thief counter to condi-stacking classes other than to use stealth and stealth traits.

If SoA acted more like Signet of Stamina, I’d be a pretty happy camper even without making it a stun breaker.

SeeBeyond.1486:

[P/P] –
1 .Body shot applies 5s weakness instead of 3s Vulnerability
2. Ricochet either made to be 100% on first bounce, 50% on second, or move it to adept trait.
3. Black powder has a small AOE anyway, have it place the pulsing blind AOE on yourself and any enemy hit by it (might make D/P too strong tho)
4. Change Unload to be 2 staged like FS/LS, first stage is the same as it is now, second is a dancing AOE attack (Gun-kata like) with an evade and does more damage based on how many conditions the target has. Only 1s allotted time after Unload stage 1 is completed to activate stage 2 before it reverts to stage 1 on the bar

I think P/P should look something like this (just not as OP) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2KJHysK6k8

[Signet of Shadow]
Activate: Gain Swiftness for 15s and blind nearby enemies
Passive: Ignore combat speed reduction

[Withdraw] + [ Roll for init]
1. Increase dodge distance (basically reverting a nerf)

[Signet of Agility]
1. Breaks stuns on activation
2. Removes a set 3 conditions on activation
3. Passive increases the length of all evade frames (on abilities) by 1/2s (or 1/4s if that is too OP) instead of precision

You, sir, get a big +1 for bringing up Gun-kata. I’ve been begging for some kind of evasive skill added to pistols, and Equilibrium is the best point of reference I’ve seen so far.

Heiltdo.2891:

Stealth is killing this class.

Well, specifically, CnD and BP > HS are killing the class.

SeeBeyond.1486:

[P/P] –
1 .Body shot applies 5s weakness instead of 3s Vulnerability
2. Ricochet either made to be 100% on first bounce, 50% on second, or move it to adept trait.
3. Black powder has a small AOE anyway, have it place the pulsing blind AOE on yourself and any enemy hit by it (might make D/P too strong tho)
4. Change Unload to be 2 staged like FS/LS, first stage is the same as it is now, second is a dancing AOE attack (Gun-kata like) with an evade and does more damage based on how many conditions the target has. Only 1s allotted time after Unload stage 1 is completed to activate stage 2 before it reverts to stage 1 on the bar

I think P/P should look something like this (just not as OP) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2KJHysK6k8

[Signet of Shadow]
Activate: Gain Swiftness for 15s and blind nearby enemies
Passive: Ignore combat speed reduction

[Withdraw] + [ Roll for init]
1. Increase dodge distance (basically reverting a nerf)

[Signet of Agility]
1. Breaks stuns on activation
2. Removes a set 3 conditions on activation
3. Passive increases the length of all evade frames (on abilities) by 1/2s (or 1/4s if that is too OP) instead of precision

1. I like the body shot suggestion, although it would be pretty powerful, and the damage would need to be nerfed.
2. I agree that ricochet isn’t quite as good as it needs to be.
3. I don’t understand what you are trying to say xd a self blind?
4. Dunno what Gun-kata is, but it sounds like dividing the skill could be interesting

I think for Signet of Shadow I prefer it as it is now, just with a stunbreak added due to the weak active ability. Even if it meant a 45 second cooldown I’d take the stunbreak.

I think maybe a good fix for Signet of agility would be: stunbreak, remove cripple, weakness and chill, and give 50% initiative on a 60 sec CD, even though it’s a bit complicated. It would be perfect for disentangling as a burst build, and I don’t see it as OP. Increasing the evade frames on skills would be unfortunately incredibly OP and the tears of QQ would drown us all.

Grimwolf.7163:

Heiltdo.2891:

Stealth is killing this class.

Well, specifically, CnD and BP > HS are killing the class.

In some ways I agree, although these mechanics do add a unique feel to the thief. Before these mechanics can be toned down, thief’s other weapon sets and neglected utilities need to be brought up. Only then could we start discussing whether to do things like turn Heartseeker into a whirl finisher or nerf black powder. Sure, D/P thieves are good, but they aren’t enough to warrant a nerf, even in WvW.

infantrydiv.1620:

4. Dunno what Gun-kata is, but it sounds like dividing the skill could be interesting

Do yourself a huge favor and go watch Equilibrium right now. It’s a little over the top, but quite an amazing movie. The gun-kata stuff we’re talking about is a the style of gun-fighting they use in the movie. It combines martial arts movements with calculated positioning in a fire-fight to inflict max damage on multiple targets while evading most attacks, even at point-blank range.

It’ll change the way you feel about playing p/p thief.

TeamBattleAxe.3901:

infantrydiv.1620:

4. Dunno what Gun-kata is, but it sounds like dividing the skill could be interesting

Do yourself a huge favor and go watch Equilibrium right now. It’s a little over the top, but quite an amazing movie. The gun-kata stuff we’re talking about is a the style of gun-fighting they use in the movie. It combines martial arts movements with calculated positioning in a fire-fight to inflict max damage on multiple targets while evading most attacks, even at point-blank range.

It’ll change the way you feel about playing p/p thief.

Lol I watched the video SeeBeyond posted. Pretty hilariously over the top xd

So I guess my changes were too subtle >.> Does anyone wanna suggest new GM traits for Acrobatics and Deadly Arts?

I don’t think we should propose too many changes right now.
A-Net is so slow and unwilling at changing many things at once.
If we realy want their attention we should make viable proposal only on few things\traits or weapon skills or utilities.
I too think that we have so many useless and old traits that should be changed\fixed someway.
I hope they will mix the effects on 2 or 3 useless traits together, making 1 trait in line with other usefull traits

First step in making changes, is fixing bugs and NOT TOUCHING what is working. Then after you do this, you can see how the game plays out, and buff / nerf / replace as needed.

I don’t want to get into a scenario where a fix to D/D, or Shadow Arts, breaks S/P, or Trickery. Leave what’s working as it is, and fix what is not working, which is mainly P/P, because D/D is still the best single target damage in pve, while P/P is really meh….

Thieves are supposed to shadowstep and cloak, we’re not as heavy condi dealers or as ranged as rangers… but i agree with some points, the shortbow. I love the shortbow (and still do, cause i made Dreamer like 3 days back) but i decided to make it when Cluster bomb was still a 1200 skill, and now since it’s down to 900 i dont get to use it was much. So i would love some future skills or traits giving the shortbow on thieves some more range.. the range doesnt help much when i am trying to run away from a hammer warr/guardian :p

What’s the logic behind moving Exposed Weakness to the 15 point minor?
15/30/0/25/0 builds for 30% extra damage passively much?

Jaycat.8167:

What’s the logic behind moving Exposed Weakness to the 15 point minor?
15/30/0/25/0 builds for 30% extra damage passively much?

You might be right…but right now DA feels so weak compared to any of the other lines…people need more incentive to go more into it than just mug… It might have to be changed if it was too powerful though, of course.

I’m surprised nobody has mentioned that your proposed change to shadow protector would be insane.

You would enable every stealth heavy GC spec out there to put 10 points into SA for perma protection, basically on demand – Just no, that’s silly.

Lets also note shadow protector would also allow you to use SR and Blinding powder as a 10s protection for nearby allies.

I stopped reading after you said “let’s make thief kiting a way to win”. Problem with that is that in spvp who’s going to follow you off a point? Dumb idea IMO. D/p needs to be the standard all other weaponsetts are held too. Instead of nerf d/p buff the rest.

infantrydiv.1620:

So I guess my changes were too subtle >.> Does anyone wanna suggest new GM traits for Acrobatics and Deadly Arts?

Poison on crit for Deadly arts grandmasters. Move panic strike to masters. If lotus poison icd is removed at the same time, this will make Deadly Arts a formidable tree.

You would take Mug, Panic Strike, and new trait ‘Deadly Venoms’.

Minor trait Lotus Poison would allow you to weaken and poison with all your attacks, Exposed weakness 10% more damage with a condition but you’ll always have multiple conditions on the enemy, and then serpent’s touch with 10s torment and poison (more like 14s since this is the condition duration tree) would seal the deal.

Just bring back d/d.. It was fun, effective, and counter-able. These new builds are just lazy and annoying to play. Buff d/d it’s the way thief was meant to be played.. a true assassin class.