Guild Wars 2

I was wondering where s/d finds it’s place in PvE, especially with the Nerf to infiltrator’s return and since I like to run a lot of dungeons and fractals, with pugs. :/

Sword/pistol does really well against multiple enemies with cleave and aoe blinds.

S/d can essentially imitate this with traiting Cloaked In Shadow but I wouldn’t like to trait into SA unless I swapped between d/d too. I’m not impressed with the DMG on the stealth attack on sword. I’m not sure why people trait into SA with s/d. This is why I’d rather use s/p. The DMG difference between s/p and s/d is not significant which makes s/d seem okay to me.

D/d performs really well against single target with high DMG with c&d and backstab and aggro drop with stealth if you are with other ppl. I heard that s/d can do almost the same dps against single targets with aa1 >> aa2 >> flanking strike >> aa2 >> aa1 >> larcenous strike and can burst harder by how often you use the dual skill. I might test this but if someone can confirm this then I would gladly use s/d more often.

The only time I would use s/d is in the dredge and against the monks in the ascalon fractal for the boon steal which is waaay better than the bountiful steal trait.

Which also reminds me. Do you guys still use the vigor on healing/stealing anymore? I find it a bit too short and it is only useful when your endurance is not full. So healing after dodging seems kinda weird and dodging into stealing is okay unless you mistimed the dodge and bring yourself to the enemy. :/

I don’t really find myself stealing very often in dungeons and in fractals too. When equipping sword, I just use infiltrator’s strike, but I guess I sometimes use it when I’m using d/d so I’m not sure why people like to use steal with s/d. I also feel like the cast time on flanking strike and Infiltrator’s return makes it less reliable than plain old dodging. It may be because of my ping but maybe not. It is sort of why I invest a little into acrobatics when I tried s/d.

Feel free to leave below your thoughts and helpful comments.

Hmm I’m new to thief so here’s my experience while trying s/d:
It wasn’t worth my time – and I mean really. From what I’ve seen I’d use NO dagger offhand ever if the first hand weapon hasn’t some awesome hudini-coming-back-attack like backstab or at least that pistol unloading :/

Blind on stealth and black powder work differently. With blind on stealth you can use your own mobility, you can easily avoid damage fields, and you’re not reliant on enemies standing in a small circle. Cloak and dagger is a decent sized hit of damage. Blind on stealth gives a blind on a variety of stealth mechanics such as hide in shadows as well, so you can aggressively move up to mobs to heal and blind them.

In most MMO group situations the extra damage is less important than control. GW2 players seem to have forgotten that in a zerker frenzy but if you can keep dazing Arah trash (mages, illusionists, etc) with tactical strike your group will be happy. If you use black powder the mobs stand and face you so there are no tactical strikes (but also the mobs don’t run off when you stealth).

S/D is probably one of the weakest weaponsets for PvE, next to D/P right now. S/P will do more DPS while cleaving on every strike while also giving you an evade weapon skill and bringing a spammable blind field on top of that. S/D, in the best of circumstances is outpaced by every other melee weapon a thief has and Larcenous Strike is single target only.

Also, the bulk of the auto attack’s damage comes from the 3rd attack, so chaining 2 attacks, then breaking to FS or LS is not a good idea.

S/D used to at least be a good weaponset against enemies with boons, but now that it only steals 1 boon, it’s mediocre at that.

A 2 second Daze on the sword stealth attack is not bad – and you can do it every 3-4 seconds.

SA has might, condition removal and healing – or some traits to swap to. Speccing into SA also gives you the ability to switch to D/D without retraining, against single targets D/D hits way harder then S/x.

man, don’t listen to people saying this is weak and this is not. just pick something you enjoy playing and stick with it. i myself have tried every weapon set for a while since launch (main thief) and now i can say my fave is S/D. i switch to D/D if i feel like it for single targets (bosses mainly).

J Night.3468:

man, don’t listen to people saying this is weak and this is not. just pick something you enjoy playing and stick with it. i myself have tried every weapon set for a while since launch (main thief) and now i can say my fave is S/, sD. i switch to D/D if i feel like it for single targets (bosses mainly).

It is weak, relative to other options…

But if you enjoy it, then have fun. You don’t need to lay with optimal traits/gear/weapons/etc. to get through 99% of the game anyways. =P

it’s also more fun. to me anyway. i’m constantly mobile and find myself killing more mobs faster than before. coupled with my traits and utility skills, i don’t go down easy. oh and i’m not a big fan of stealthing and cowering away so i barely use any stealth other than dagger offhand 5.

I use S/D in PVE for two reasons:

#1: Boon stealing. The ability to remove boons being spammable is pretty helpful in a number of situations.

#2: The evade on flanking strike. While D/D has higher single target damage, Death Blossom has an evasion window of 1/4th of a second. Flanking strike is double that, which gives me a much larger margin for error.

I only use S/D against bosses. Everywhere else I just uses S/P.

As for the vigor traits… I am always in conflict on what build to go with: 25/30/0/0/15, or 25/25/0/0/20, just to get bountiful theft. The AoE boon steal and AoE vigor are really helpful, but with how much it is nerfed I’m not sure if I should lose executioner for it.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I use S/D in PVE for two reasons:

#1: Boon stealing. The ability to remove boons being spammable is pretty helpful in a number of situations.

#2: The evade on flanking strike. While D/D has higher single target damage, Death Blossom has an evasion window of 1/4th of a second. Flanking strike is double that, which gives me a much larger margin for error.

I only use S/D against bosses. Everywhere else I just uses S/P.

As for the vigor traits… I am always in conflict on what build to go with: 25/30/0/0/15, or 25/25/0/0/20, just to get bountiful theft. The AoE boon steal and AoE vigor are really helpful, but with how much it is nerfed I’m not sure if I should lose executioner for it.

25/30/0/15/0 and take vigorous recovery. withdraw is nice with that too. evade, heal, and vigor available every 15 seconds. then just go back to your target with infiltrator’s strike.

Potato.7318:

I was wondering where s/d finds it’s place in PvE, especially with the Nerf to infiltrator’s return and since I like to run a lot of dungeons and fractals, with pugs. :/

S/D is great in dredge fractals since there’s a lot of boons to steal. Other than this, you really have to bring the appropriate weapon, like in the Grawl fractal, S/D sucks.

Sword/pistol does really well against multiple enemies with cleave and aoe blinds.

Yup S/P is great due to PW and blind. PW is great at taking out structures.

I’m not sure why people trait into SA with s/d. This is why I’d rather use s/p.

Traiting SA is about staying power vs super dodging from Acrobat. When we dodge, we don’t do damage. Someone will argue that actively dodging is an active play style even being active is about actively participating in combat like dealing damage or party buffs.

Active playstyle is what put you in the loot/aggro table.

So to minimize the drop in DPS, SA is necessary to give S/D staying power before needing to heal or stealth/reset.

However if you also believe that traiting Acro for dodge and Withdraw for more dodge is your play style, then yes SA would not make any sense.

Sure enough that Acro provides a lot of reason to dodge and every evasion from Withdraw will heal you more, but every time you do this, you’re dropping lower and lower in the loot table.

Someone will then argue that Acro build is supplemented with 2400 toughness from gear, then if that is the case, we wouldn’t need to dodge often or heal often, so having traits in Acro more than 15 and bringing Withdraw wouldn’t make any sense.

Nevetheless, if you gear towards Power instead of 2400 toughness (which you should), traiting for SA is the only line that will provide you with staying power.

D/d performs really well against single target with high DMG with c&d and backstab and aggro drop with stealth if you are with other ppl….I might test this but if someone can confirm this then I would gladly use s/d more often.

Larcenous Strike deals a lot of damage and it’s unblockable and it’s more cost effective than CnD->backstab. However, it really depends on what you’re fighting and what you group compo is, that’s why I recommend to bring all weapon set possible.

Bosses typically buff themselves that’s why S/D is a great set to strip the boons off the boss so that your whole group will deal their expected damage.

Sure D/D’s Backstab scales ridiculously high in a group setting, but without stripping the boons from the boss, your damage output is severely kitten. However, if you have a Necro or Mesmer in your group that can strip the boons regularly, you’re better off with D/D than S/D.

The only time I would use s/d is in the dredge and against the monks in the ascalon fractal for the boon steal which is waaay better than the bountiful steal trait.

Totally agree.

Do you guys still use the vigor on healing/stealing anymore?

It depends on your group composition. Normally as a Thief you just focus on staying alive and deal as much damage as possible — and occasionally, when necessary, strip boons. All buffs will be provided for you.

I don’t really find myself stealing very often in dungeons and in fractals too.

15pts in Acro is great, but no more, IMO anyway. I use steal to get to the pesky caster mob at the back. I IF the closest target, then steal to the caster, deal as much damage or kill the annoying mod, then IR before the IF resets to get back where I started.

And you’re right about the cast time on FS and IR, it’s clunky and unreliable. This is due to the after cast and precast delays. There is an after cast delay after the AA chain, then if you try to FS or IR after that, you’ll be standing there doing nothing for 3/4s, due to precast delay, on top of the casting time while getting bashed in the face. Anet really need to fix this.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Someone will argue that actively dodging is an active play style […]
Someone will then argue that Acro build is supplemented with 2400 toughness from gear […]

Whew, someone is apparently still smarting over being exposed as a non-Acrobatics Thief, and losing an argument badly, if he’s bringing up WvW points in a thread that’s specifically about PvE. Things that apply in WvW (baiting cooldowns from people with a dodge style) don’t apply the same way in PvE against monster AI, obviously.

And it’s 2400 Armor from gear, not 2400 Toughness. Lord. At least get your terminology correct. Weasel wording should be infractable, really.

Interceptor.2653:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Someone will argue that actively dodging is an active play style […]
Someone will then argue that Acro build is supplemented with 2400 toughness from gear […]

Whew, someone is apparently still smarting over being exposed as a non-Acrobatics Thief, and losing an argument badly, if he’s bringing up WvW points in a thread that’s specifically about PvE. Things that apply in WvW (baiting cooldowns from people with a dodge style) don’t apply the same way in PvE against monster AI, obviously.

And it’s 2400 Armor from gear, not 2400 Toughness. Lord. At least get your terminology correct. Weasel wording should be infractable, really.

What makes you think I was talking about you? You’re not that important.

I post toughness because it’s toughness NOT armor. But you’re right, it’s not 2400, I exaggerated, it’s actually 2200 toughness.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

What makes you think I was talking about you?

Mostly the poor job that you did of disguising the passive-aggressiveness. At least make some cursory attempt to change the words around; there are more venoms on your skill bar than a 30/30/x/x/x P/D Thief.

I post toughness because it’s toughness NOT armor. But you’re right, it’s not 2400, I exaggerated, it’s actually 2200 toughness.

We’ll just have to take your word for it, since you didn’t actually cite anything in your weasel wording. Which somehow has an extremely specific number in it.

^ Wow, get over yourself.

If you want to see the build, all you have to do is ask and not discredit yourself by using ad hom.

@Sir Vincent III
You must mean armour. The highest toughness a thief can get from gear (so excluding traits) is 1312, which with the 916 base becomes 2228. That’s barely above 2200 IF you’re including the base toughness (which isn’t from gear!), and requires ascended weapons, armour, trinkets, and toughness runes and infusions.

@Interceptor
Since you’re making a big deal about this guy’s terminology: you don’t get 2400 armour from gear. You get defense from gear. Armour is your defense and toughness combined.
Countering possible arguments in advance is a good reasoning technique. It shows you’ve evaluated possibilities to reach your conclusion, and presents it as a strong one. It doesn’t mean the person using the technique has selected a single person who will attempt to counter his logic and fail... it’s there to dismiss possible arguments before they can be made.

Impact.2780:

@Sir Vincent III
You must mean armour. The highest toughness a thief can get from gear (so excluding traits) is 1312, which with the 916 base becomes 2228. That’s barely above 2200 IF you’re including the base toughness (which isn’t from gear!), and requires ascended weapons, armour, trinkets, and toughness runes and infusions.

I was talking about PvE and fractals, of course it’s about ascended gears. And it is toughness and NOT armor. Someone showed me a build they use in fractals and I still have the link to that build. It’s a crazy build with focus on surviving high level fractals.

But like I said, by traiting into SA, you can focus on Power build instead.

EDIT: Here’s the build. This is not my build, it was argued to me that it’s the best in fractals.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAsa6aEFnTIbPqQAgn8KQWdPAAAoqA-jACBojDimIYQ0pmCiZnKrlRFRjVrETDjIq2erIa1SB8ryI-e

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I was talking about PvE and fractals, of course it’s about ascended gears. And it is toughness and NOT armor. Someone showed me a build they use in fractals and I still have the link to that build. It’s a crazy build with focus on surviving high level fractals.

But like I said, by traiting into SA, you can focus on Power build instead.

EDIT: Here’s the build. This is not my build, it was argued to me that it’s the best in fractals.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAsa6aEFnTIbPqQAgn8KQWdPAAAoqA-jACBojDimIYQ0pmCiZnKrlRFRjVrETDjIq2erIa1SB8ryI-e

Still, take away the 916 base toughness and you have only 1288 from gear =P.

I can’t see that build getting many votes for being the best in fractals, but if it works for the type of group composition you and your friend run with, then it can’t be called bad! I prefer to use stealth+backstab and attacks with good synergy with signet of malice in fractals. As armour increases, each point becomes less effective, so there comes a point where acquiring additional healing, and increasing the effectiveness of your heals becomes more beneficial than increasing armour further. So in terms of what’s ’best’ or ’optimal’ for survival, you’d take Assassin’s Reward or Shadows Rejuvenation before reaching such high armour.

Impact.2780:

@Interceptor
Since you’re making a big deal about this guy’s terminology: you don’t get 2400 armour from gear. You get defense from gear. Armour is your defense and toughness combined.

I only made a medium-sized deal about it because it was a number from an argument where he got slapped down. Since he was wrong about the number in the first place, it’s clearly not relevant anymore.

But since you want to have a pedant-off, you get Defense from armor (but not trinkets), stats from everywhere, and Armor from the total of Toughness/Defense. Some of us like to say “gear” to refer to the whole thing, as a shorthand. Gear does not necessarily mean mono-armor, and I’d be surprised at anyone who used it that way.

Countering possible arguments in advance is a good reasoning technique. It shows you’ve evaluated possibilities to reach your conclusion, and presents it as a strong one. It doesn’t mean the person using the technique has selected a single person who will attempt to counter his logic and fail… it’s there to dismiss possible arguments before they can be made.

There’s nothing wrong with the generic technique. It does raise eyebrows, though, when your pre-counter has a pretty specific number in it, and references a vague “someone” rather than keeping the example impersonal.

Interceptor.2653:

But since you want to have a pedant-off, you get Defense from armor (but not trinkets), stats from everywhere, and Armor from the total of Toughness/Defense. Some of us like to say “gear” to refer to the whole thing, as a shorthand. Gear does not necessarily mean mono-armor, and I’d be surprised at anyone who used it that way.

Nice one =P. Alas, armour is gear, and I did not specify all gear, merely “from gear”. Saying you can buy chicken from shops is not false just because not all shops sell chicken!

Impact.2780:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I was talking about PvE and fractals, of course it’s about ascended gears. And it is toughness and NOT armor. Someone showed me a build they use in fractals and I still have the link to that build. It’s a crazy build with focus on surviving high level fractals.

But like I said, by traiting into SA, you can focus on Power build instead.

EDIT: Here’s the build. This is not my build, it was argued to me that it’s the best in fractals.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fYAQRAsa6aEFnTIbPqQAgn8KQWdPAAAoqA-jACBojDimIYQ0pmCiZnKrlRFRjVrETDjIq2erIa1SB8ryI-e

Still, take away the 916 base toughness and you have only 1288 from gear =P.

Well then, let me rephrase;

“Someone will then argue that Acro build is supplemented with 2200 toughness (base+gear)…”

Much better I hope. >.<’

I can’t see that build getting many votes for being the best in fractals, but if it works for the type of group composition you and your friend run with, then it can’t be called bad!

I don’t agree with it either, but I understand the main idea of “not dying = more dps” and when this build gets 25 stacks of Might, it’s hard to believe the damage and the survivability. It’s crazy.

The reasoning behind it is that damage output is easier to supplement through buffs and when the buff falls off, it’s no big deal. But if you rely on buffs for survival, then when it falls off, you’re in trouble.

And yes it’s all about the group composition.

I prefer to use stealth+backstab and attacks with good synergy with signet of malice in fractals. As armour increases, each point becomes less effective, so there comes a point where acquiring additional healing, and increasing the effectiveness of your heals becomes more beneficial than increasing armour further.

Yes, I do think on the same line that’s why I think that it’s better to spec SA than Acro even if you’re not a stealther.

So in terms of what’s ‘best’ or ‘optimal’ for survival, you’d take Assassin’s Reward or Shadows Rejuvenation before reaching such high armour.

Shadow’s Rejuvenation is better since it basically a “time out” to allow your other party members the chance to stack up a lot of aggro while you’re in stealth. Assassin’s Reward encourages you to continue attacking because that’s the only way you get the benefit, meaning, you’ll never going to drop aggro unless you choose to stop attacking — meaning you’re not benefiting from AR.

The dilemma is, you’d need Warriors in your group out damaging you to keep aggro off of you just to take advantage of AR — but if a Warrior is out damaging you, you’ll never find a group in pugs. :/

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shadow’s Rejuvenation is better since it basically a "time out" to allow your other party members the chance to stack up a lot of aggro while you’re in stealth. Assassin’s Reward encourages you to continue attacking because that’s the only way you get the benefit, meaning, you’ll never going to drop aggro unless you choose to stop attacking -- meaning you’re not benefiting from AR.

The dilemma is, you’d need Warriors in your group out damaging you to keep aggro off of you just to take advantage of AR -- but if a Warrior is out damaging you, you’ll never find a group in pugs. :/

Well, you can use cloak and dagger + back stab with Assassin’s Reward for healing just like you’d do it for Shadow’s Rejuvenation (although not sustained unless you take Infusion of Shadow, which if you do you might as well take Shadows Rejuvenation lol). Assassin’s Reward was never that popular though because you pick up better traits along the way to Shadow’s Rejuvenation (such as In fusion of Shadow, Shadow’s Embrace, Shadow Protector). Shadow Arts offers reliable condition removal, while in Acrobatics it’s automatically triggered at a certain state and has a long cool down.

Ironically, the devs seemed to want to promote Assassin’s Reward, yet it was used more before they attempted to promote it by moving it up a tier. In some builds it was a viable alternative when you only have 20 points to spend on survival.

A good warrior will likely be able to out damage a thief any time, if not match it.. Thief damage was constantly nerfed for being seen as ’OP’ when the reality was thieves were just using full offensive gear all the time to capitalise on the only role the class has.. so now it’s essentially a gimmicky mini warrior in terms of usefulness in PVE (and of course group stealth for trash).

Impact.2780:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Shadow’s Rejuvenation is better since it basically a “time out” to allow your other party members the chance to stack up a lot of aggro while you’re in stealth. Assassin’s Reward encourages you to continue attacking because that’s the only way you get the benefit, meaning, you’ll never going to drop aggro unless you choose to stop attacking — meaning you’re not benefiting from AR.

The dilemma is, you’d need Warriors in your group out damaging you to keep aggro off of you just to take advantage of AR — but if a Warrior is out damaging you, you’ll never find a group in pugs. :/

Well, you can use cloak and dagger + back stab with Assassin’s Reward for healing just like you’d do it for Shadow’s Rejuvenation (although not sustained unless you take Infusion of Shadow, which if you do you might as well take Shadows Rejuvenation lol).

You can’t really benefit from AR if you’d be doing CnD+BS since only CnD will heal you and if that misses, you’re SoL. If AR heals on percentage based, it would be nice because it synergize with traiting in Acro. More HP = more heal from AR.

Unfortunate, we got what we got.

Assassin’s Reward was never that popular though because you pick up better traits along the way to Shadow’s Rejuvenation (such as In fusion of Shadow, Shadow’s Embrace, Shadow Protector). Shadow Arts offers reliable condition removal, while in Acrobatics it’s automatically triggered at a certain state and has a long cool down.

I totally agree, but beware that you’re in for a long discussion how good it is to spec Acro and when you stop arguing because you can’t take the B.S. anymore, you’d be perceived as the loser. You have been warned.

Ironically, the devs seemed to want to promote Assassin’s Reward, yet it was used more before they attempted to promote it by moving it up a tier. In some builds it was a viable alternative when you only have 20 points to spend on survival.

I tried any build and I’ve never seen Assassin’s Reward as top pick for 20Acro. Pain Response obviously trumps it for healing capability. They move AR in GM so that Acrobats can spec for PR and AR, but sadly, that’s not what’s going on. Players are spec-ing Hard to Catch and AR (sarcasm). lol.

Seriously though, if AR is percentage base, I would drop SA, pick up 30Acro and switch my gear from Vitality to Toughness.

A good warrior will likely be able to out damage a thief any time, if not match it.. Thief damage was constantly nerfed for being seen as ‘OP’ when the reality was thieves were just using full offensive gear all the time to capitalise on the only role the class has.. so now it’s essentially a gimmicky mini warrior in terms of usefulness in PVE (and of course group stealth for trash).

…and stealth revive. We’re Medical Ninjas now.

You’re just as out of luck with cloak and dagger missing when using it for sustained heal with Shadow’s Rejuvenation. If you’re using that sequence, the steps to heal are the same.
Difference is just Assassin’s Reward will heal for more if you don’t stay in stealth for 1 second or more, and will heal when the 2,3,4 skills are also used, while Shadow’s Rejuvenation can heal you while you reposition or drop aggro (obviously stealthed first) and activated through non-weapon stealth-granting skills.

I don’t intend to tell people where they should and shouldn’t put their points, so I don’t care if someone tries to pick a fight with me over placing points in Acrobatics. The most I’d do is justify my own preferences. If I am in an argument and stop responding, it’ll be because the other party is repeating arguments I’ve already dismissed. and I’ve acknowledged that the discussion isn’t going anywhere as a result (i.e constructive discussion ended with the last constructive response, meaning the other party is the one that stopped taking part). That type of person will assume they’ve won regardless - too stubborn to consider other views properly, or blindly following someone else’s comments who they believe is always right - so it ultimately makes no difference to the end result if I stop replying. Those who have the capacity for reason will be able to draw their own conclusions logically, instead of "that person got the last post so he must be right."

Impact.2780:

You’re just as out of luck with cloak and dagger missing when using it for sustained heal with Shadow’s Rejuvenation. If you’re using that sequence, the steps to heal are the same.
Difference is just Assassin’s Reward will heal for more if you don’t stay in stealth for 1 second or more, and will heal when the 2,3,4 skills are also used, while Shadow’s Rejuvenation can heal you while you reposition or drop aggro (obviously stealthed first) and activated through non-weapon stealth-granting skills.

The main issue I had with AR in dungeons is when your target puts up Retaliation which cancels the heal you get from AR especially when you really need the heal. Also when I get stacks of confusion and there’s no way to heal myself through AR. With SR, I can sacrifice a hit from confusion to go in stealth and heal.

I don’t intend to tell people where they should and shouldn’t put their points, so I don’t care if someone tries to pick a fight with me over placing points in Acrobatics. The most I’d do is justify my own preferences. If I am in an argument and stop responding, it’ll be because the other party is repeating arguments I’ve already dismissed. and I’ve acknowledged that the discussion isn’t going anywhere as a result (i.e constructive discussion ended with the last constructive response, meaning the other party is the one that stopped taking part). That type of person will assume they’ve won regardless – too stubborn to consider other views properly, or blindly following someone else’s comments who they believe is always right – so it ultimately makes no difference to the end result if I stop replying. Those who have the capacity for reason will be able to draw their own conclusions logically, instead of “that person got the last post so he must be right.”

I also don’t get the notion about “winning” and “losing” since it’s not a competition. We’re just having a friendly, although sometimes disagreeing, discussion.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I totally agree, but beware that you’re in for a long discussion how good it is to spec Acro and when you stop arguing because you can’t take the B.S. anymore, you’d be perceived as the loser. You have been warned.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I also don’t get the notion about "winning" and "losing" since it’s not a competition. We’re just having a friendly, although sometimes disagreeing, discussion.

Just using the same terminology as you for a direct response. If you don’t understand it don’t use it =P!

So it is the general consensus that s/d performs poorly in pve compared to other weaponsets except in very situational conditions. :/

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Traiting SA is about staying power vs super dodging from Acrobat. When we dodge, we don’t do damage. Someone will argue that actively dodging is an active play style even being active is about actively participating in combat like dealing damage or party buffs.

Sure enough that Acro provides a lot of reason to dodge and every evasion from Withdraw will heal you more, but every time you do this, you’re dropping lower and lower in the loot table.

I really like your contribution to this thread. You have brought an interesting concept of dps. We all know a dead thief brings 0 dps, but you also state that dodging can also reduce your dps since time is spent dodging rather than damaging.

But wouldn’t you say that every second you stay in stealth, you are also not doing damage (well direct dmg) and essentially reducing your dps? Now, I’m not saying that SA is bad, I just feel like SA would be good if you trait all 30 points into it or 10. Now if you invest in the 300 toughness and healing power and the passive healing in stealth, which is not bad, but you are also sacrificing a lot of dmg for that extra survivability.

The reason I take acrobatics 15 is for the extra dodge is that the best damage mitigation is the avoidance of taking dmg and I can also keep the 25 in DA. Of course, you can’t dodge everything, but I really feel like the extra dodge helps a lot. For withdraw, I usually don’t take it because i either take hide in shadows or prayer to dwayna for the burst heal to counter the burst damage which happens a lot with zerker gear. With that being said, I don’t pick up vigor on heal. Too much dodging, like you said, can lower your damage output.

But I do agree with you. More than 15 points in acro is just bad. Especially with the skills they moved around like hard to catch and assassin’s reward. :/ I’m not a big initiative spammer so thats why i was okay with giving up trickery.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

And you’re right about the cast time on FS and IR, it’s clunky and unreliable. This is due to the after cast and precast delays. There is an after cast delay after the AA chain, then if you try to FS or IR after that, you’ll be standing there doing nothing for 3/4s, due to precast delay, on top of the casting time while getting bashed in the face. Anet really need to fix this.

Yea, it seems like the only reason they chose to nerf IR was to affect s/d in pvp.

JonPeters.5630:

Infiltrator’s Return
The thing I have heard the second most discussion regarding. This is a big change to this skill, but we beleive it is a necessary one. In many cases this is not going to matter. There are only 2 situations where this is a truly impactful change.
1) It stops you from using this skill while stunned, which puts more burden on Sword/Dagger thieves saving their stun breakers. This is the kind of gameplay we want to encourage because it puts more risk in using a rewarding skill like Infiltrator’s Strike.
2) Mostly in PvP, this skill can no longer be used by S/D thieves to teleport stomp someone. This is actually the more impactful moment as it occurs more often, but I think it puts the burden on these players to run a second weapon set that can help them in these situations (OH pistol for instance.)

Why they decided to carry this nerf into PvE to one of the weakest weapon sets (s/d) in PvE is beyond me.

Actually, I’ve been seeming to talk a lot about some of the Dec 10th patch changes. With s/d, vigor, IF, survivability in acrobatics. A lot of wrong has come out of this patch for PvE.