Guild Wars 2

I’ve been playing D/P near exclusively since the balance patch, and just want to share some thoughts about it.

I’ve tried a few incarnations of it via traits:
2/6/0/0/6
5/6/0/0/3
6/6/0/0/2
I haven’t done shadow arts, because stealth is bad during team fights. I don’t like acro, because it doesn’t synergize well with D/P

2/6/0/0/6
This build is my personal favorite. Bountiful Theft and Slight of Hand give a lot of utility. These traits are the differentiating factors for this build compared to the others. Bountiful Theft and Slight of Hand together allow you interrupt stability stomps, plus their individual uses are numerous. BT allows you to take might if the enemy has only 2 or 1 boon. SoH creates openings for you to land a spike, but the 21 second steal recharge gives you access to an additional skill more frequently. The weakness of this build is the same as all the other D/P builds, which is that AoE is going to wreck your day. Cleave is incredibly strong in the game at the moment, and as such you will find very little use in the midst of team fights, and will be better off utilizing shortbow. CC without cooldowns will also mean you’re in trouble.

5/6/0/0/3
This build is in my opinion the most effective, but that could be because it’s what I’ve been playing most recently. While one would think more utility would be better, that’s not necessarily true. This build sacrifices the utility from the trickery line in order to hit harder. It hit’s hard enough that the utility offered by trickery can be offset. You’ll deal about 12-13% more damage with this build, while the enemy is above 50%, which doesn’t sound like a lot, but the reality is that you push people below 50% more quickly in order to start triggering Executioner. This D/P build suffers from the same weaknesses as any D/P build, AoE and CC without cooldowns spells the end for you.

6/6/0/0/2 (Panic Strike)
The differentiating factor for this build, is you sacrifice initiative cap and therefore some damage out of First Strikes for a 5 second immobilize once Executioner starts triggering. It hits just as hard as the other Deadly Art’s heavy build and suffers from the same weaknesses.

6/6/0/0/2 (Revealed Training)
Revealed Training will allow you to deal about 9-10% additional damage than the 5/6/0/0/3 build, while you are revealed. You land the revealed training with backstab by triggering mug during the cast time of backstab. It hits like a truck, but you can spec heavily into signets in order to land 10k+ backstabs (before executioner and vs base 916 toughness) to sacrifice most utility for all out damage. This causes you to deal about 40% more damage than the 5/6/0/0/2 spec while revealed and 16 stacks of might is active, but going all in for that 1 spike, isn’t necessarily that useful to a coordinated team.

D/P Matchups – My opinion on matchups

Favorable matchups – Will win most of the time quickly
- Anything glass other than a Guardian, Mesmer, or Thief

Even matchups – Stalemate, split wins, kill will take a bit
- Celestial D/D Elementalist
- Trickery S/D Thief
- Berserker’s Hambow Warrior
- Most ranger builds
- Shatter mesmers (People think thief hard counters mesmers, but from my experience I only notice that with S/X builds)

Poor matchups – Will lose most of the time, forced to flee, takes too long to get the kill
- Any bunker
- Soldier’s Hambow Warrior
- Minion Master Necro
- Any engineer build other than glass direct damage
- PU mesmers
- Phantasm Mesmers
- Condi Mesmers
- Acro S/D Thief
- DPS guardian

The best way to think of a D/P build is like a wavelength of damage. It’s damage comes in packets, but is lower overall than a sword based build. It peaks higher than sword will, but over a couple of seconds a sword build will deal more damage and has better personal survivability. Like all thief builds D/P can be mobile by running shortbow as your alt weapon. So it brings high spike damage and mobility usually.

Because it lacks personal survivability in teamfight scenarios you will be forced to mostly use shortbow, but look for opportunities to switch to D/P for a spike. The challenge is that D/P spike’s are easily countered, because blackpowder puts people on the ready for an incoming spike. It’s more reliable to spike from stealth instead of immediately from black powder, but stealth is bad in teamfights because you’re not pressuring the enemy with damage. So you’ll need to let your team create openings for you to spike immediately from blackpowder in those situations.

Spiking from stealth is always viable 1v1 (unless you need to hold a point), and is okay in 2v2’s. In 3v3’s or greater, stealth sparingly when contributing to the fight. Stealth is useful though for breaking away from fights, and should be done when you rotate. Even though extended duration stealth isn’t good in teamfights find opportunities to do so occasionally. Extended duration stealth in the right moments does apply it’s own kind of pressure to the opposing team psychologically, they may break away thinking you’re trying to +1 somewhere else, which will create a +1 at your current team fight. Or they may think you’re looking for an opportunity to spike so they use some personal defenses unnecessarily. Most of the time the damage pressure lost though is too much of a detriment to warrant using long stealths.

What’s all this mean? It means in conquest D/P isn’t useless, but it’s not exactly viable unless you have a coordinated team specifically building around it. And even then, it’s questionable whether a sword build would be better for the team, because of the extra viability in team fights that comes from the extra personal survivability, how quickly sword makes up the spike difference, the overall higher real dps it does in practical scenarios, and the cleave.

So, I haven’t played a lot of games with it in PvP yet, but I decided to try a slightly different version of D/P trickery the other day if you’d like to try it out.

5/0/0/3/6 D/P + SB

Mug & Dagger Training
Power of Inertia
TotC, BT, SoH

Runes of Strength
Zerker amulet
Sigil of Strength +[ your choice]

It gives you a flatter damage output, and with the fury from TotC, crit chance is generally not an issue. It’s nice having feline grace and vigor in a D/P trickery build also.

I don’t find myself wishing I had more dodges. Losing over 20% of my overall damage isn’t worth it to me to be able to dodge 50% times as often.

Well, you lose executioner, but you don lose 20% of your damage. Comparing it to a 2/6/0/0/6 build, you have +200 base power and dependable +10% damage from exposed weakness versus initial strikes (subjectively dependable). So with a base power of 2300 (rounding) versus 2100, you’re getting about a 9.5% increase in your base damage which is constant throughout the fight. Also, the dodges play an important role in building might stacks in addition to keeping you alive. In a short fight with stealing and the subsequent dodges and procs from Sigil/Rune of Strength, you can quickly build up around 10 stacks.

Anyway, if it’s not your cup of tea, that’s fine, but I found it to be an interesting new twist on it.

Maugetarr.6823:

Well, you lose executioner, but you don lose 20% of your damage. Comparing it to a 2/6/0/0/6 build, you have +200 base power and dependable +10% damage from exposed weakness versus initial strikes (subjectively dependable). So with a base power of 2300 (rounding) versus 2100, you’re getting about a 9.5% increase in your base damage which is constant throughout the fight. Also, the dodges play an important role in building might stacks in addition to keeping you alive. In a short fight with stealing and the subsequent dodges and procs from Sigil/Rune of Strength, you can quickly build up around 10 stacks.

Anyway, if it’s not your cup of tea, that’s fine, but I found it to be an interesting new twist on it.

I also lose out on the ferocity and precision if I choose to go that route, which is what I was primarily referring to. But yeah, not my preference.

Ah, I didn’t think about the precision/ferocity side of it. Including the power increase, you lose 10% damage with the change, but dagger training makes up half that difference, then the might stacks bring up the rest of that, but I get where you’re coming from on it.

Maugetarr.6823:

Ah, I didn’t think about the precision/ferocity side of it. Including the power increase, you lose 10% damage with the change, but dagger training makes up half that difference, then the might stacks bring up the rest of that, but I get where you’re coming from on it.

I decided to test your build out and compare it to the 5/6/0/0/3 I’ve been running. Backstabs are doing 12%-13% less and my crit chance is @ 55% max with fury while using 5/0/0/3/6. With the build I’m running currently I’m hitting 6400 backstabs when I crit on the light armor golem, whereas the other build is averaging 5700 when I crit on the Golem. I also have 81% max crit chance with the 5/6/0/0/3 with traits and fury, so the disparity in DPS over time is probably more than 20% before even considering Executioner.

Shockwave.1230:

Maugetarr.6823:

Ah, I didn’t think about the precision/ferocity side of it. Including the power increase, you lose 10% damage with the change, but dagger training makes up half that difference, then the might stacks bring up the rest of that, but I get where you’re coming from on it.

I decided to test your build out and compare it to the 5/6/0/0/3 I’ve been running. Backstabs are doing 12%-13% less and my crit chance is @ 55% max with fury while using 5/0/0/3/6. With the build I’m running currently I’m hitting 6400 backstabs when I crit on the light armor golem, whereas the other build is averaging 5700 when I crit on the Golem. I also have 81% max crit chance with the 5/6/0/0/3 with traits and fury, so the disparity in DPS over time is probably more than 20% before even considering Executioner.

Well compared to the 5/6/0/0/3 (full glass) you would certainly see a decrease like that. I was thinking more of a comparison to 2/6/0/0/6 (standard trickery) since that one is only taking full advantage of one offensive trait line (and is my favorite as well). You are correct though, there certainly would be a rather large disparity between what you run and this. I misunderstood to which build you were comparing it.

Well done post Shockwave. You seem to understand the strengths and weaknesses of d/p well. Though I would put d/d ele somewhere closer between even matchups and poor matchups. The amount of burst healing a d/d ele can achieve is pretty incredible. They have quite a bit of sustain. On the other hand, fresh air S/D ele is as paper as a full signet thief, and the fresh air S/D gets punished severely for its greater burst potential.

In general, I also believe that a D/P spec should be able to compete with an S/D spec. In fact I think it’s more of an uphill battle for the S/D instead of the D/P.

Chicago Jack.5647:

Well done post Shockwave. You seem to understand the strengths and weaknesses of d/p well. Though I would put d/d ele somewhere closer between even matchups and poor matchups. The amount of burst healing a d/d ele can achieve is pretty incredible. They have quite a bit of sustain. On the other hand, fresh air S/D ele is as paper as a full signet thief, and the fresh air S/D gets punished severely for its greater burst potential.

In general, I also believe that a D/P spec should be able to compete with an S/D spec. In fact I think it’s more of an uphill battle for the S/D instead of the D/P.

Thanks. D/D ele’s I’m sure have a higher skill cap than what I’ve been facing most of the time. But the trick vs them is to use the steal bundle after they swap out of water to chill them and keep them from going back into water for as long as possible. They Don’t have a condi removal once they get out of water unless they are using ER as their heal.

I feel S/D has a disadvantage vs D/P 1v1, shadow shot pretty much neutralizes any positioning advantage from infiltrator’s strike/return unless LoS is involved. You just need to save infiltrator’s signet for when that LoS is utilized. Also if you don’t have infiltrator’s signet off cool down for LoS. Shortbow 5 + steal + SB 2 can be a good alternative to get around corners.

Though a match isn’t allowing an extended 1v1 very frequently, which is why the higher sustained dps and cleave of Sword as well as its defenses will tend to fit a team comp better.

For D/D ele I totally forgot about cantrip regen condi clearing via traits. I need to check into what the priority is for that condi removal between Poison, blind, and chill.

For S/D vs. D/P matchup, I feel like most S/D just stick to my face and try to LoS me by running behind me while cleaving all over the place. I generally get dropped before I have any opportunity to set up anything, even if I’m standing inside BPS. How do you deal with that/them? Also, Immob on demand, gets me into trouble most of the time.

I’ve been running D/P in sPvP for a long time, with inconsistent success. From the list you’ve put up of favorable matches, it sounds like we’re just designed to take out other glass classes lol.

I am currently running 2/6/0/0/6, I’ve been running 5/6/0/0/3 for a while and you do get to drop enemies faster, but the loss of boon stealing is not worth it in my case. Stealing 15stacks of might from an ele / guardian / warrior makes up for it.

Shockwave.1230:

For D/D ele I totally forgot about cantrip regen condi clearing via traits. I need to check into what the priority is for that condi removal between Poison, blind, and chill.

Good news for D/P thieves, bad news for D/D ele’s is that Mistform is bugged so that it doesn’t remove a condi when it triggers Soothing Disruption and Cleansing Water.

Lightning Flash removes the first condi applied between poison and chill, which means when you mug and connect Ice Shard Stab poison will be removed by lightning flash.

Armor of Earth seems to have a reverse priority of what Lightning Flash does.

So even though I was completely wrong about ele’s having no condi removal once they leave water, it makes sense now why chilling them after they leave water has been so effective for me. Besides the bug and condi priority oddities, there’s also the long cool downs for cantrips that give some more benefit to D/P v D/D ele.

Lamuness.3570:

For S/D vs. D/P matchup, I feel like most S/D just stick to my face and try to LoS me by running behind me while cleaving all over the place. I generally get dropped before I have any opportunity to set up anything, even if I’m standing inside BPS. How do you deal with that/them? Also, Immob on demand, gets me into trouble most of the time.

I’ve been running D/P in sPvP for a long time, with inconsistent success. From the list you’ve put up of favorable matches, it sounds like we’re just designed to take out other glass classes lol.

I am currently running 2/6/0/0/6, I’ve been running 5/6/0/0/3 for a while and you do get to drop enemies faster, but the loss of boon stealing is not worth it in my case. Stealing 15stacks of might from an ele / guardian / warrior makes up for it.

A Blackpowder Field will only defend against about half the attacks when they teleport in. You’ll also find Sigils triggering on you. Deal with them by interrupting them with Basi or steal, and use stealth to land backstab, use your teleports when they teleport away. As soon as you are fightning near their leash post (what I call the little circle they leave behind when they teleport) you have an even larger advantage than what D/P already offers. Occasionally you’ll fall because they can get the jump on you from range, but once it’s close fighting and they can’t teleport away, it’s pretty much over (my experience at least when I don’t screw up).

In my experience yes, all currently viable thief builds are that way. Sword builds have more success against Mesmers is the main difference in glass cannon matchups. In general from what I’ve seen, we’re good against glass bad against bunkers in 1v1s (but can win in drawn out 1v1s, but is it worth it? Most of the time no.)

I can never get might from ele’s when I steal. They have too many simulatenous boons , and it seems like might is a low priority for bountiful theft. Vs Warriors getting might works as long as they only have 2 boons, but they’re usually smart enough to trigger their elite when they build up might stacks.

I play D/P a lot in WvW. I know how to play it and play it well.

But frankly, I just don’t see the appeal in sPvP.

The only thing it’s good at is dueling other Thieves. But that’s not what sPvP is about.

Mostly though it’s the sodding poor Backstab damage that turns me off. Backstabs in sPvP hit for pitiful damage, mostly around 4000-6000, depending on the target.

Any Pistol Whip will deal the same, if not more damage, while:

• avoiding damage via evades.
• stunning…and thus interrupting/pressuring the enemy.
• no positional requirements. Pistol Whip hits for the same everywhere.
• Cleave damage…lots of it. Great for suppressing revives.
• Can be spammed. No setup required, no cooldown.

And all of this can be pre-cast from range as well, when used in conjunction with a shadowstep.

I just don’t see what D/P brings to a team-fight that Pistol Whip doesn’t bring in a better and more reliable fashion.