[PvP]Davedevil. Behold the new meta

[PvP]Davedevil. Behold the new meta

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Posted by: mPascoal.4258

mPascoal.4258

Basic math 101

Specs:

-Deadly Arts (Same as now)
-Daredevil
-Trickery (Same as now)

Heal: Withdraw
Utilities:

-Shadow Refuge
-Shadowstep
-X (Some Physical Skill, they seem really good)

Elite: Physical, but Venom might still see play

Amulet: Marauder
Weapons:

-Staff/SD/DP? and SP?
-Shortbow

Sigil: Pretty much the same old good Air/Fire. Switch Fire to personal preference

D/P Meta might stay if the current playstyle the build uses still have a place when HoT releases

YAY we gain a new build to use.
This is actually the spec I’m most excited to try next BWE. I’ll be sad if D/P goes out of meta thought because I enjoy the playstyle of the spec (except that we can’t do 1v1’s) and stealth was the reason I did my Thief to begin with and S/D was never my thing. Staff might be thought

I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one getting this conclution so what do you guys think about our Elite Spec?

Phask - Guardian/DH | Phaskk - Warrior | Phaask - Revenant

(edited by mPascoal.4258)

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Posted by: lordhelmos.7623

lordhelmos.7623

This thing is ridiculously overpowered from a mechanics standpoint.

I remember the nightmarish days of S/D thieves going through entire matches with perma-dodge and never getting hit while demolishing fights. I was so happy when feline grace and that troll build died.

Now they are coming back with a vengeance to bring Ragnarok to this game. This will usher in a new generation of troll players abusing the mechanics of this class. 1v1s will be completely dominated by zerker DDs with instakill combos that don’t even require a stomp.

I regret preordering.

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Posted by: Auesis.7301

Auesis.7301

DD actually has far less endurance regeneration etc. than even the old Acrobatics/Feline Grace.

Overreactions always make me laugh.

Gnome Child [Gc]
Resident Thief

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Posted by: Cyhann.2609

Cyhann.2609

DD actually has far less endurance regeneration etc. than even the old Acrobatics/Feline Grace.

Passive, yes but active? There is a full dodge on steal, you regain endurance for each Ini spent and for each physical skill. Heal also gives you 1 1/2 dodge back.
This coupled with Acrobatics could become quite crazy.

Then again I loved the crazy s/d times where fights never ended.

Now they are coming back with a vengeance to bring Ragnarok to this game.

This made me laugh, thank you very much.

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Posted by: Auesis.7301

Auesis.7301

You only regain endurance on Initiative if you use Staff. S/D or another set can’t get that benefit. The heal takes too long and will get you killed. Taking Acrobatics means you lose either Panic Strike/Executioner/Mug or all the Trickery buffs for Steal, sending your damage and/or other utility down the toilet.

Gnome Child [Gc]
Resident Thief

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Posted by: philheat.3956

philheat.3956

I was thinking at the same build.

but the fact you can’t dodge in SR is a problem.

btw is a general issue dodging in SR with DD.

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Posted by: mPascoal.4258

mPascoal.4258

I was thinking at the same build.

but the fact you can’t dodge in SR is a problem.

btw is a general issue dodging in SR with DD.

True, but we can’t have everything right?

Phask - Guardian/DH | Phaskk - Warrior | Phaask - Revenant

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Posted by: philheat.3956

philheat.3956

I was thinking at the same build.

but the fact you can’t dodge in SR is a problem.

btw is a general issue dodging in SR with DD.

True, but we can’t have everything right?

Yeah, probably.

I was thinking about the old s/d (with the old feline grace) dodge of course was a super great defense but EVERY s/d thief used SR.

Shadow Refuge is always a super strong skill to reset fight, to disengage etc, and thief s/d didn’t have so many dodges to survive in 1vs1 or teamfight without SR.

The fact you can’t dodge in SR (or it’s really complicated) + a lot of counter stealth skills inc. is a big vulnerability window in DD.

This will be a general issue for every DD build.

(edited by philheat.3956)

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Posted by: AlCojester.4316

AlCojester.4316

This thing is ridiculously overpowered from a mechanics standpoint.

I remember the nightmarish days of S/D thieves going through entire matches with perma-dodge and never getting hit while demolishing fights. I was so happy when feline grace and that troll build died.

Now they are coming back with a vengeance to bring Ragnarok to this game. This will usher in a new generation of troll players abusing the mechanics of this class. 1v1s will be completely dominated by zerker DDs with instakill combos that don’t even require a stomp.

I regret preordering.

The tears are already coming…

I like it.

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Posted by: Shockwave.1230

Shockwave.1230

Shadow refuge won’t be meta, the bounding dodge means you’ll get revealed in refuge, and with how rediculous Herald is looking it’ll be meta and it has an instant cast AoE reveal.

Sylvari Elementalist – Mystree Duskbloom (Lv 80)
Norn Guardian – Aurora Lustyr (Lv 80)
Mia A Shadows Glow – Human Thief (Lv 80)

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Posted by: philheat.3956

philheat.3956

I have a similar feeling.

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Posted by: Amante.8109

Amante.8109

Getting a full dodge (50 endurance) on steal is one thing I think a lot of people are overlooking the power of. It’s on a minor, too.

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Posted by: philheat.3956

philheat.3956

Getting a full dodge (50 endurance) on steal is one thing I think a lot of people are overlooking the power of. It’s on a minor, too.

It’s strong for sure.

Another reason because you need trickery line 100%

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Posted by: babazhook.6805

babazhook.6805

Hard to catch also restores FULL endurance if stunned. Thats 150. Thats the equal of three steals endurance return and you will get stunned. This makes that skill on the Acro line much more powerful.

Just as Signet of agility becomes much more powerful. (assuming of course regain all endurance means just that)

DD/Acro trickery can be very powerful with loads of damage coming from all those dodges.

(edited by babazhook.6805)

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Posted by: MarkPhilips.5169

MarkPhilips.5169

I think hard to catch and agility signet will restore always 2 bars.

3 bars it would be too much honestly.

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Posted by: Treetoptrickster.4205

Treetoptrickster.4205

This thing is ridiculously overpowered from a mechanics standpoint.

I remember the nightmarish days of S/D thieves going through entire matches with perma-dodge and never getting hit while demolishing fights. I was so happy when feline grace and that troll build died.

Now they are coming back with a vengeance to bring Ragnarok to this game. This will usher in a new generation of troll players abusing the mechanics of this class. 1v1s will be completely dominated by zerker DDs with instakill combos that don’t even require a stomp.

I regret preordering.

I agree that there are a few strong ways to replenish your endurance with this spec, but I don’t think it will come close to being as bad as the old Feline Grace.

Three dodges only means you have one more dodge when entering combat, and one more dodge if you wait 50% longer than normal characters to regenerate it all. In a normal combat situation you probably won’t see yourself fill up that third dodge bar without a serious endurance regen spam build because as soon as you get a bar, you’ll likely use it. BY ITSELF the third dodge isn’t too troublesome. Spammy endurance regen is what we should worry about.

Speaking of endurance regen, the endurance traits aren’t too bad if you really take a look at them. They’ll definitely make for a dodge heavy build, but I don’t think they’ll bring about the apocalypse. One dodge on steal? Ok. If you’ve traited fully for steal recharge reduction that’s like one dodge around every 20 seconds. That doesn’t sound too menacing. The physical skill trait gives you 10 endurance, and one dodge sets you back 50. In order to give yourself one dodge back you’d have take all physical skills and use em all back to back. Your endurance recharges in the background so it’s probably closer to you having to use 4 and a 1/3 physical skills. I don’t think that this trait will enable permevade by itself, but it’s pretty good. The staff trait only works with that one weapon, so quick pockets won’t work with it. The trait gives you 2 endurance per initiative spent which means the most expensive skill on the staff – Vault – will give you a fifth of a dodge, and you don’t want to be spamming that since you’re vulnerable while in the air. It’s a strong trait, and with builds focusing on insane initiative regen it will be very strong, but I don’t think it can be any weaker without sucking. If they made the endurance regen only proc when you actually hit something with the the skill it would be perfectly fine IMO.

So yeah, this line will definitely give you a ton of ways to get very dodge spammy, but it’s not gonna be as easy as it was with Feline Grace. Besides, for all the work that would go in to making a full evade build they’d only succeed at kittening people off. That is these builds aren’t too efficient at killing people, just being immortal if played to perfection. If they tone down the damage/condi/boon duration of the enhanced dodges it shouldn’t be as infuriating if someone were to achieve this. Maybe add a lockout to these enhanced dodges for a few seconds if you take yourself to 0 endurance.

The real problem is with sigils and runes that restore endurance, but luckily those have some ICDs. Stamina in PvE is pretty funny with a glassy build. At some point, with all of the right settings you’d likely be overcapping your ability to regen endurance! Increase the ICDs of the runes and sigils and it wouldn’t be so bad. I dunno. It seems like a lot to go for just to troll people. I don’t ever see a perma dodge build becoming meta. A frequa dodge Daredevil build? Maybe.

Hope this at least alleviated some of your fears XD

(edited by Treetoptrickster.4205)

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Posted by: Tarkan.5609

Tarkan.5609

Hard to catch also restores FULL endurance if stunned. Thats 150. Thats the equal of three steals endurance return and you will get stunned. This makes that skill on the Acro line much more powerful.

Just as Signet of agility becomes much more powerful. (assuming of course regain all endurance means just that)

DD/Acro trickery can be very powerful with loads of damage coming from all those dodges.

This is simply wrong.
If you ever looked at Hard To Catch or SoA, they both clearly state:

  • Endurance Gain: 100

So nope, nothing new there.
The 2nd minor restoring 50 endurance on successful steal will make trickery even better and therefore even more mandatory, and DA just got so many good traits.
DA/Trickery/DD is gonna be the PvP Meta, in WvW you could see a lot of other play styles though…

PvP, Teef & Engi

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Posted by: naphack.9346

naphack.9346

Hard to catch also restores FULL endurance if stunned. Thats 150. Thats the equal of three steals endurance return and you will get stunned. This makes that skill on the Acro line much more powerful.

Just as Signet of agility becomes much more powerful. (assuming of course regain all endurance means just that)

DD/Acro trickery can be very powerful with loads of damage coming from all those dodges.

This is simply wrong.
If you ever looked at Hard To Catch or SoA, they both clearly state:

  • Endurance Gain: 100

So nope, nothing new there.
The 2nd minor restoring 50 endurance on successful steal will make trickery even better and therefore even more mandatory, and DA just got so many good traits.
DA/Trickery/DD is gonna be the PvP Meta, in WvW you could see a lot of other play styles though…

Even then, Daredevil still has an improvement with these skills.
You will hardly ever be at 0 endurance, when you use SoA/proc hard to catch.
Hardly. Ever.
Having an endurance pool of 150 means that you are likely to get the full 100 endurance out of the deal rather than something between 100 and 0, that will most likely end up being something between 80 and 60 in the case of SoA and some totally random amount in the case of hard to catch.
You don’t time SoA around maximizing initiative gain, you usually time it when you desperately need a dodge or desperately need to pop off a fear effect. With the larger pool, you can actually get the full 100 out of the deal even when you use it in an emergency.

The only crime, turrets committed, is being good against the celestial meta.
The mob has spoken and the turrets shall be burnt at the stake.

(edited by naphack.9346)

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Posted by: Kocoff.7582

Kocoff.7582

This thing is ridiculously overpowered from a mechanics standpoint.

I remember the nightmarish days of S/D thieves going through entire matches with perma-dodge and never getting hit while demolishing fights. I was so happy when feline grace and that troll build died.

Now they are coming back with a vengeance to bring Ragnarok to this game. This will usher in a new generation of troll players abusing the mechanics of this class. 1v1s will be completely dominated by zerker DDs with instakill combos that don’t even require a stomp.

I regret preordering.

hatersgonhate.

Blackgate Server [RLR]
Thief – Raiden Hayabusa
Thief – Gouki Kurokawa

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Posted by: Agemnon.4608

Agemnon.4608

This thing is ridiculously overpowered from a mechanics standpoint.

I remember the nightmarish days of S/D thieves going through entire matches with perma-dodge and never getting hit while demolishing fights. I was so happy when feline grace and that troll build died.

Now they are coming back with a vengeance to bring Ragnarok to this game. This will usher in a new generation of troll players abusing the mechanics of this class. 1v1s will be completely dominated by zerker DDs with instakill combos that don’t even require a stomp.

I regret preordering.

1.Roll a guardian or warrior
2.Balance around hammer and rifle (warrior) and staff and hammer (guardian)
3.Enjoy knockdowns, heavy armor, and boons.

Alternative strategy:

1.Roll a necro
2.Balance around minions and lifesteal. Make use of your wells.
3.Use staff and two axes.

Usually it’s a gear issue or in sPvP a learn to play issue.

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Posted by: babazhook.6805

babazhook.6805

Hard to catch also restores FULL endurance if stunned. Thats 150. Thats the equal of three steals endurance return and you will get stunned. This makes that skill on the Acro line much more powerful.

Just as Signet of agility becomes much more powerful. (assuming of course regain all endurance means just that)

DD/Acro trickery can be very powerful with loads of damage coming from all those dodges.

This is simply wrong.
If you ever looked at Hard To Catch or SoA, they both clearly state:

  • Endurance Gain: 100

So nope, nothing new there.
The 2nd minor restoring 50 endurance on successful steal will make trickery even better and therefore even more mandatory, and DA just got so many good traits.
DA/Trickery/DD is gonna be the PvP Meta, in WvW you could see a lot of other play styles though…

My apologies. I read endiurance gained 100 as 100 percent. That said these skills still get a boost since if I am at 50eaxisting endurance I can now get it up to 150. (gaining 100 endurance rather then 50)

Now superior sigil of stamina still reads restore all endurance.

(edited by babazhook.6805)

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Posted by: Tarkan.5609

Tarkan.5609

Hard to catch also restores FULL endurance if stunned. Thats 150. Thats the equal of three steals endurance return and you will get stunned. This makes that skill on the Acro line much more powerful.

Just as Signet of agility becomes much more powerful. (assuming of course regain all endurance means just that)

DD/Acro trickery can be very powerful with loads of damage coming from all those dodges.

This is simply wrong.
If you ever looked at Hard To Catch or SoA, they both clearly state:

  • Endurance Gain: 100

So nope, nothing new there.
The 2nd minor restoring 50 endurance on successful steal will make trickery even better and therefore even more mandatory, and DA just got so many good traits.
DA/Trickery/DD is gonna be the PvP Meta, in WvW you could see a lot of other play styles though…

My apologies. I read endiurance gained 100 as 100 percent. That said these skills still get a boost since if I am at 50eaxisting endurance I can now get it up to 150. (gaining 100 endurance rather then 50)

Now superior sigil of stamina still reads restore all endurance.

Just re-read my former post, sorry that it sounded this harsh, wasn’t intended.

PvP, Teef & Engi

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Posted by: babazhook.6805

babazhook.6805

Hard to catch also restores FULL endurance if stunned. Thats 150. Thats the equal of three steals endurance return and you will get stunned. This makes that skill on the Acro line much more powerful.

Just as Signet of agility becomes much more powerful. (assuming of course regain all endurance means just that)

DD/Acro trickery can be very powerful with loads of damage coming from all those dodges.

This is simply wrong.
If you ever looked at Hard To Catch or SoA, they both clearly state:

  • Endurance Gain: 100

So nope, nothing new there.
The 2nd minor restoring 50 endurance on successful steal will make trickery even better and therefore even more mandatory, and DA just got so many good traits.
DA/Trickery/DD is gonna be the PvP Meta, in WvW you could see a lot of other play styles though…

My apologies. I read endiurance gained 100 as 100 percent. That said these skills still get a boost since if I am at 50eaxisting endurance I can now get it up to 150. (gaining 100 endurance rather then 50)

Now superior sigil of stamina still reads restore all endurance.

Just re-read my former post, sorry that it sounded this harsh, wasn’t intended.

No problem. That said I have been weighing Acro against trickery for some time in MY own build and think acro will edge out trickery. The reason for this Is I am going to switch up to SOM as the heal and will lose an Immob break from withdraw. Don’t stop is a beautiful trait. Low cooldown and has saved me so many times. I just prefer to minimize the immobs and stuns that can be thrown my way and the intent is to have 2 immob breaks (rfi the other) along with the three stun breaks.

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Posted by: Tarkan.5609

Tarkan.5609

Hard to catch also restores FULL endurance if stunned. Thats 150. Thats the equal of three steals endurance return and you will get stunned. This makes that skill on the Acro line much more powerful.

Just as Signet of agility becomes much more powerful. (assuming of course regain all endurance means just that)

DD/Acro trickery can be very powerful with loads of damage coming from all those dodges.

This is simply wrong.
If you ever looked at Hard To Catch or SoA, they both clearly state:

  • Endurance Gain: 100

So nope, nothing new there.
The 2nd minor restoring 50 endurance on successful steal will make trickery even better and therefore even more mandatory, and DA just got so many good traits.
DA/Trickery/DD is gonna be the PvP Meta, in WvW you could see a lot of other play styles though…

My apologies. I read endiurance gained 100 as 100 percent. That said these skills still get a boost since if I am at 50eaxisting endurance I can now get it up to 150. (gaining 100 endurance rather then 50)

Now superior sigil of stamina still reads restore all endurance.

Just re-read my former post, sorry that it sounded this harsh, wasn’t intended.

No problem. That said I have been weighing Acro against trickery for some time in MY own build and think acro will edge out trickery. The reason for this Is I am going to switch up to SOM as the heal and will lose an Immob break from withdraw. Don’t stop is a beautiful trait. Low cooldown and has saved me so many times. I just prefer to minimize the immobs and stuns that can be thrown my way and the intent is to have 2 immob breaks (rfi the other) along with the three stun breaks.

I assume SOM is the name of the physical heal skill? (looked at it, didn’t like it, forgot it’s name)
If so, I’d be interested in your reasons for choosing it over Withdraw

PvP, Teef & Engi

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Posted by: kash.9213

kash.9213

No problem. That said I have been weighing Acro against trickery for some time in MY own build and think acro will edge out trickery. The reason for this Is I am going to switch up to SOM as the heal and will lose an Immob break from withdraw. Don’t stop is a beautiful trait. Low cooldown and has saved me so many times. I just prefer to minimize the immobs and stuns that can be thrown my way and the intent is to have 2 immob breaks (rfi the other) along with the three stun breaks.

There’s a couple of choices of builds even within /DD/Tickery like deciding between condition removal or an interrupt build, which would require having Withdraw. I think the DD line will give plenty of opportunities to get out of lockdowns or prevent them while Acro might be better for feeding endurance if paired with DD. Overall I’d prefer DA/DD/Trickery to dodge and find placement between Stealing for interrupts.

Kash
NSP

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Posted by: Amante.8109

Amante.8109

I assume SOM is the name of the physical heal skill? (looked at it, didn’t like it, forgot it’s name)
If so, I’d be interested in your reasons for choosing it over Withdraw

SoM = Signet of Malice, our heal skill that gives a small heal on hit while the signet is not on CD. It’s pretty popular for sustain in PvE, but obviously a non-starter in SPvP.

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Posted by: Tarkan.5609

Tarkan.5609

I assume SOM is the name of the physical heal skill? (looked at it, didn’t like it, forgot it’s name)
If so, I’d be interested in your reasons for choosing it over Withdraw

SoM = Signet of Malice, our heal skill that gives a small heal on hit while the signet is not on CD. It’s pretty popular for sustain in PvE, but obviously a non-starter in SPvP.

ah okay as i exclusively PvP or roam in WvW I of course didn’t know the abbreviation for Signet of malice

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Posted by: babazhook.6805

babazhook.6805

I assume SOM is the name of the physical heal skill? (looked at it, didn’t like it, forgot it’s name)
If so, I’d be interested in your reasons for choosing it over Withdraw

SoM = Signet of Malice, our heal skill that gives a small heal on hit while the signet is not on CD. It’s pretty popular for sustain in PvE, but obviously a non-starter in SPvP.

ah okay as i exclusively PvP or roam in WvW I of course didn’t know the abbreviation for Signet of malice

There a reason I am looking at SOM for WvW.

Currently I have been testing a WvW d/d condition build. He uses Shamns armor for healing and when using SOM gets 192 per hit in healing. This means with a DB base on one target a 576 heal. if there three targets that heal is much higher.

Now with his high healing Pain response from acro line gives 254 heal per second and that uptime pretty high. If I slot in assassins reward (and i have been using don’t stop most of the time) this another 475 heal per DB. I then use spider venom using leeching venoms and get 6 strikes of 522 each for over 3k in heal just off the venom.

Ok the problem is when the number of enemies drop and or my ini runs low it hard to get healing when needed. Simply put in small groups or against one or two enemy withdraw is a better heal.

So looking at the DD traits there a number of skills/traits that will give me healing using SOM. I can over get 2k in heals on a dodge using Lotus training. The fist flurry skill can give 7*192 in healing. More importantly if I take Rune of the mad king I can use the new elite , stun the victim, send that flock of birds on him and heal for over 3500 health even as I lay down that damage. The combination of the birds, the two attacks and the 3500 heal followed by a maybe finisher will be devastating.

Now In WvW when I use this signet now, I can easily solo camps in short order and my health never drops. I cluster all the enemies to me, db over them a few times than daggerstorm all of this drawing in heals. The signet is much weaker though against enemy players and smaller groups simply because of INI burn and my needing to keep attacking to bring in those heals. With DD I feel I will be able to mix dodges with attacks so as to regain INI even as I do damage and heal.

Thus Pain response regen component becomes more important. The Don’t stop makes up for the loss of the Condition and immob removal off withdraw and hard to catch refill sendurance for yet more dodges is the plan.

(edited by babazhook.6805)

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Posted by: Amante.8109

Amante.8109

The signet is fine against PvE enemies (including camps in WvW). The problem is when you face a human opponent and they jump in your face. At that point, SoM (or HiS even) isn’t going to save you. This is why Withdraw is so widely ran—not by preference but by lack of any better choice.

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Posted by: babazhook.6805

babazhook.6805

The signet is fine against PvE enemies (including camps in WvW). The problem is when you face a human opponent and they jump in your face. At that point, SoM (or HiS even) isn’t going to save you. This is why Withdraw is so widely ran—not by preference but by lack of any better choice.

Actually no, this has not been my experience and I do have 6000 hours in ,90 percent thief and 90 percent Wvw. I also have played every build imaginable even forcing myself into weaponsets I did not like so as to get better at it. I am no elite player but can judge against myself which builds work for me and which do not,.( I do not play eotm at all and generally roam or run in groups of five)

In Shamans using D/d I welcome them getting in my face and especially early in a battle. They do that on virtually any class outside d/ d ele with diamond skin and I win way more than I lose. It is when they engage at range that I have more trouble.

The weakness of SOM is when one is out of INI and if an enemy engages close or even two or three while my INI full they are in for some hurt and my heals on the db can draw in over 3k per.

Generally the time where I run out of INI is when I SR but in the new build I am going to dodge more for added heals.

I know when I am fighting uplevels and those new to the environment. I know when I am fighting players of higher skill and the build fares very well against them. The issue is not sustain.

If you speak of pvp I have no opinion or experience on that as I do not like the mode.

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Posted by: Amante.8109

Amante.8109

Fair enough. I will admit that I have spent a vast majority of my time in SPvP rather than WvW, so my WvW knowledge is anecdotal at best.

P.S. How did I not notice until JUST NOW that the thread title says “Davedevil”. lol