Guild Wars 2

I don’t main this class, I’ve just grown bored of the regular D/P Bounding Dodger DD build and have been having a lot of fun with this one for back-capping side points.

I’ve been running a Sage Acrobatics D/D Daredevil with Daredevil Rune for crits. Compared to Staff, it’s trading one trait line for condition application, condition cleansing and slightly clunkier weapon set with a cheaper evade.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVn8lCFOhlOBOmCkmiFqiy7CGySornCgDYO77+wH-TpBEQB1b/BC8AAiwRAABnAACWGAAHCAA
^Distracting Daggers can be switched to whatever 3rd utility you prefer
^Bountiful Theft is also a viable option, especially if NOT using Distracting Daggers

Precision is completely unnecessary due to the rune and extreme access to dodges, but Ferocity could work better than the Condition/Healing Power on Sage. It’s up to preference. That said,

The following traits activate off of one dodge/Dagger 3:
-apply Bleeding/Torment, from Lotus Training
-guarantee your next crit, from Rune of the Daredevil
-Caltrops, from Uncatchable
-Vigor, from Feline Grace
-Swiftness, from Expeditious Dodger
-Regeneration and 1 initiative, from Upper Hand
-heal for 540, from Driven Fortitude
-cleanse 1 condition, from Escapist’s Absolution

The following refill endurance or initiative for additional dodges:
-all aforementioned Vigor
-Hard to Catch (100% Endurance refill and a free stun break)
-Channeled Vigor (plus 85 Endurance every 16 seconds)
-Signet of Agility (plus 100 Endurance every 30 seconds)
-Steal (plus 50 Endurance & 2 initiative every cast)
-Distracting Daggers and Impact Strike (plus 10 Endurance on activation)

Other points to notice:
-Every Steal, Distracting Dagger and Impact Strike will also apply Torment.
-Dodge and Dagger 3 can whirl inside Choking Gas for easy Poison application (after AA3).
-Upper Hand and Pain Response both apply Regeneration, slightly justifying Sage over Mercenary Amulet.
-Immobilize can be mitigated with Shadowstep, Dag3 and SB3 for its duration.

Overall, this build trades some damage from loss of easy Backstab access for a non-negligible amount of evasion, condition application/cleansing and interrupt access. It feels very much inline with the old “get every trait that buffs Steal” mindset, except now it’s along the lines of “get every trait that buffs dodge” instead.

My question is: what makes this build bad, or at least worse than what I typically see D/P and Staff DDs running? This feels pretty good, and while it won’t beat the best players doing NOTHING but spamming dodges as often as possible (don’t do this), access to this amount of evasion has felt more useful to me than the regular meta setup. What’s the trade-off here?

Thanks a ton for any responses.

I run a very similar build WvW using Shamans armor but going more towards high condition and little power . I was using trickery with the torment and pressure strike and have been going back and forth between that and DA.

SOM can work very well in this type of build as a heal as each dodge and DB generates multiple attacks. With your build base is 185 which on a DB that lands means another 555 heals. The Dodges do the same and if you have two enemies nearby you can even heal faster.

The single biggest problem is lack of on field mobility. The swiftness is short lived and while SB off hand helps , one is using precious INI to close an an enemy by using infiltrators arrow. A person who recognizes the build will engage at range and kite. I have had a lot of people , once recognizing they would lose, turn and run and if steal burned they can be next to impossible to catch.

Another weakness is the AOE stuff like traps/wells and Thunderclap. While in your evade frame it hard for them to hit you but they can easily predict where you will land and drop that stuff there. DB has little directional control.

D/P has those area blinds, easier and cheaper access to stealth and that #3 which allows one to close on an enemy quickly.

regarding hard to catch your build does have lots of sources of endurance. I am not sure on your playstyle but one thing that can happen with hard to catch is that you already filled with endurance when you get stunned. It than becomes just a stunbreak with a 30 second cooldown. I used that at first but now lean to GI with bandits defense on the toolbar. That block with stunbreak and the ability to gen another interrupt off the kick is just so useful and IMO you do not lose a lot of endurance overall as you will use it more often and will use it when you need to.

With your high healing GI can help keep conditions off you early in a fight and help get you at advantage.

-You should decide wether you are running a power or a condition build. The daredevil runes are useless without ferocity. The sigils would be better used for condition Duration.
I realize you are trying some sort of power/condi hybrid here, but that wont work, Your mainly beneficial damage source for power builds (AA) is too dangerous to use, you will rather spam death blossom.

-You apply only one conditon. Even if you constantly reapply it, every good non-power-shiro should be able to cleanse it. By not taking DA you miss out on a great deal in potential poison damage.

-The distracting daggers and pressure striking…you sacrifice a trait and a utility for a hard-to-land interrupt and some torment.

I wouldnt say this build wont work at all. But it will always be weaker than a ‘pure’ d/d acro-condi build.
If you want evasion and power, better go with S/d. Or staff
Valkyrie jumper could be something for you. Even tho ist kinda ‘last season’

Asrat.2645:

-You should decide wether you are running a power or a condition build. The daredevil runes are useless without ferocity. The sigils would be better used for condition Duration.
I realize you are trying some sort of power/condi hybrid here, but that wont work, Your mainly beneficial damage source for power builds (AA) is too dangerous to use, you will rather spam death blossom.

-You apply only one conditon. Even if you constantly reapply it, every good non-power-shiro should be able to cleanse it. By not taking DA you miss out on a great deal in potential poison damage.

-The distracting daggers and pressure striking…you sacrifice a trait and a utility for a hard-to-land interrupt and some torment.

I wouldnt say this build wont work at all. But it will always be weaker than a ‘pure’ d/d acro-condi build.
If you want evasion and power, better go with S/d. Or staff
Valkyrie jumper could be something for you. Even tho ist kinda ‘last season’

Actually I used close to this build and in a pure condition build at least the damage comparable to going DA for poison. You can easily get 10+ torment on and will have more bleeds overall due to more from uncatchable and the extra INI for a DB. The GM can be any one of the three, BA for confusion , QP for weapon swaps and more INI for the Dbs and SOH for an interrupt with torment/daze.

Distracting daggers is much easier used with practice. they key is the closer you are the more effective they are and they can neutralize a major attack incoming or a needed heal even as torment applied.

Torment/bleeds/confusion with some amount of heal inhibition off poison from the AA does all you need condition damage wise. Torments work nicely in a d/d build because they help to inhibit movement of the enemy.

babazhook.6805:

SOM can work very well in this type of build as a heal as each dodge and DB generates multiple attacks. With your build base is 185 which on a DB that lands means another 555 heals.

AOE stuff like traps/wells and Thunderclap [can be timed to hit you]. While in your evade frame it hard for them to hit you but they can easily predict where you will land and drop that stuff there. DB has little directional control.

Took me a while to remember what SOM was (heal slot: Signet of Malice). I run Channeled Vigor for the Endurance restore, which on a 16s cd I think is the better deal.

Asrat.2645:

-You should decide whether you are running a power or a condition build. The daredevil runes are useless without ferocity. The sigils would be better used for condition Duration. [In general], you will rather spam death blossom.

I wouldn’t say this build wont work at all. But it will always be weaker than a ‘pure’ d/d acro-condi build.

I took the advice into consideration and made a few swaps:
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVn8lCFOhlOBGmCkmilriyLCygPYe6v+tv7myxAA-TpRAQBg4IAogDBQGOBATsMQP2fAAPAAA
-Guarded Initiation to help with clearing Mesmer Confusion and misc. conditions.
-Bandit’s Defense for a low CD stun break and 2s knockdown.
-Bountiful Theft since we no longer have as many interrupts.
-Rune of the Krait and Sigil of Agony for +65% Bleeding Duration
-Sigil of Frailty for an additional condition to protect your bleeds (after Torment/Cripple).

Sigils can be improved. The amulet (+1050 condi/power, +560 vit/healing) is IMO fine as it is for a condition build. There’s limited Poison, which I see is the main draw to Deadly Arts, but I don’t think it’s enough to trade away permanent upgraded Vigor with a meaty condition cleanse. AA3 sprinkled in (usually after knockdowns) and block/elite/steal to interrupt have been enough for me so far.

Thanks for all of the advice. It feels effective and more forgiving than meta builds, but also like a gimmick and in general slower at killing. I like it but I understand why it isn’t going to be a big thing.

Akira.5746:

babazhook.6805:

SOM can work very well in this type of build as a heal as each dodge and DB generates multiple attacks. With your build base is 185 which on a DB that lands means another 555 heals.

AOE stuff like traps/wells and Thunderclap [can be timed to hit you]. While in your evade frame it hard for them to hit you but they can easily predict where you will land and drop that stuff there. DB has little directional control.

Took me a while to remember what SOM was (heal slot: Signet of Malice). I run Channeled Vigor for the Endurance restore, which on a 16s cd I think is the better deal.

Asrat.2645:

-You should decide whether you are running a power or a condition build. The daredevil runes are useless without ferocity. The sigils would be better used for condition Duration. [In general], you will rather spam death blossom.

I wouldn’t say this build wont work at all. But it will always be weaker than a ‘pure’ d/d acro-condi build.

I took the advice into consideration and made a few swaps:
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVn8lCFOhlOBGmCkmilriyLCygPYe6v+tv7myxAA-TpRAQBg4IAogDBQGOBATsMQP2fAAPAAA
-Guarded Initiation to help with clearing Mesmer Confusion and misc. conditions.
-Bandit’s Defense for a low CD stun break and 2s knockdown.
-Bountiful Theft since we no longer have as many interrupts.
-Rune of the Krait and Sigil of Agony for +65% Bleeding Duration
-Sigil of Frailty for an additional condition to protect your bleeds (after Torment/Cripple).

Sigils can be improved. The amulet (+1050 condi/power, +560 vit/healing) is IMO fine as it is for a condition build. There’s limited Poison, which I see is the main draw to Deadly Arts, but I don’t think it’s enough to trade away permanent upgraded Vigor with a meaty condition cleanse. AA3 sprinkled in (usually after knockdowns) and block/elite/steal to interrupt have been enough for me so far.

Thanks for all of the advice. It feels effective and more forgiving than meta builds, but also like a gimmick and in general slower at killing. I like it but I understand why it isn’t going to be a big thing.

If you are dropping the interrupts for the pressure strike, i would really consider switching the GM trait up to either quickpockets for more ini on weapon swap , or bewildering ambush for the confusion.

I know the low cooldown steal for the daze and endurance seems nice but you get more out of the build with the other two choices. (more deathblossoms with ini or that extra condition confusion). Sigils like Doomm or geomnacy can than come into play along with more weapon swaps. What is good about geomancy is it an AOE with multiple bleed stacks.

Akira.5746:

I don’t main this class, I’ve just grown bored of the regular D/P Bounding Dodger DD build and have been having a lot of fun with this one for back-capping side points.

I’ve been running a Sage Acrobatics D/D Daredevil with Daredevil Rune for crits. Compared to Staff, it’s trading one trait line for condition application, condition cleansing and slightly clunkier weapon set with a cheaper evade.

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVn8lCFOhlOBOmCkmiFqiy7CGySornCgDYO77+wH-TpBEQB1b/BC8AAiwRAABnAACWGAAHCAA
^Distracting Daggers can be switched to whatever 3rd utility you prefer
^Bountiful Theft is also a viable option, especially if NOT using Distracting Daggers

Precision is completely unnecessary due to the rune and extreme access to dodges, but Ferocity could work better than the Condition/Healing Power on Sage. It’s up to preference. That said,

The following traits activate off of one dodge/Dagger 3:
-apply Bleeding/Torment, from Lotus Training
-guarantee your next crit, from Rune of the Daredevil
-Caltrops, from Uncatchable
-Vigor, from Feline Grace
-Swiftness, from Expeditious Dodger
-Regeneration and 1 initiative, from Upper Hand
-heal for 540, from Driven Fortitude
-cleanse 1 condition, from Escapist’s Absolution

The following refill endurance or initiative for additional dodges:
-all aforementioned Vigor
-Hard to Catch (100% Endurance refill and a free stun break)
-Channeled Vigor (plus 85 Endurance every 16 seconds)
-Signet of Agility (plus 100 Endurance every 30 seconds)
-Steal (plus 50 Endurance & 2 initiative every cast)
-Distracting Daggers and Impact Strike (plus 10 Endurance on activation)

Other points to notice:
-Every Steal, Distracting Dagger and Impact Strike will also apply Torment.
-Dodge and Dagger 3 can whirl inside Choking Gas for easy Poison application (after AA3).
-Upper Hand and Pain Response both apply Regeneration, slightly justifying Sage over Mercenary Amulet.
-Immobilize can be mitigated with Shadowstep, Dag3 and SB3 for its duration.

Overall, this build trades some damage from loss of easy Backstab access for a non-negligible amount of evasion, condition application/cleansing and interrupt access. It feels very much inline with the old “get every trait that buffs Steal” mindset, except now it’s along the lines of “get every trait that buffs dodge” instead.

My question is: what makes this build bad, or at least worse than what I typically see D/P and Staff DDs running? This feels pretty good, and while it won’t beat the best players doing NOTHING but spamming dodges as often as possible (don’t do this), access to this amount of evasion has felt more useful to me than the regular meta setup. What’s the trade-off here?

Thanks a ton for any responses.

Its a 1v1-focused build that as you said, won’t beat the best players. The best players is what you have to think about when you design a build.

That said, the other reason is because it really isn’t the best at any single role.

Is it good in 1v1? Decent yeah, but is it better than a good scrapper?

Is it able to roam? Kind of, but is it as fast and as bursty as a Rev or D/P thief?

Is it able to teamfight? Not really.

D/d is one of the best build concepts for skipping. And one of the few that allows you to stay on point while doing it.
It is also a direct counter for some of the most popular builds out there. Like condi reaper (reason why I still use UC over LT) or power Shiro.
You can not really do the typical thief’s jobs, cause you lack the burst to effectively +1, but you can win or at least hold out a lot of 1v1 scenarios, and you can stay in teamfights for an extended time period.

Ist not perfect, but it is strong. At least for everything up to ruby.