Guild Wars 2

Hooray for Sniper Spec (hopefully!)

Terrorsquad.2349:

• Any other class can +1, but can’t deliver burst on demand => resulting in being slow in rotations and being outnumbered/outrotated later on (assuming enemy team has a Thief)

Burst is worthless. I’ve seen bunker Engi doesn’t even care about damage or burst as long as they can launch you out of the node so they can bunker down and cap it.

Like I said, if you can defend the node, no need to rotate. In a 3-1-1 split, even if you outnumber 3v5, they will only lose one node that they can retake on respawn.

And if it takes your whole team to take a node…I don’t believe you don’t see a problem there.

• If you’re going to replace Thief for a Warrior (assuming you don’t have a warrior yet), you’re in for an outrotation. Warriors are slow, despite their leap/swiftness (if we’re talking about the Meta).

As I said. Effectively defending a node requires less for rotation. If you can force the other team to always outnumber your team, that’s a win because they will always be outnumbered somewhere else.

• Shoutwarrs weak spot is burst. Your enemy thief is in for a free kill on your warrior once he’s outnumbered for few seconds.

Seeing that the Warrior is keeping the Thief and another enemy in a node means that the enemy team is outnumbered in other nodes.

My point is, every time the Thief leaves to outnumber a fight, they are weakening a node somewhere. I’ve seen this every time. Whenever a Thief helps to outnumber a fight, his team loses 1-2 nodes.

FYI;

• Any other class can take a node.. Ok.. But what environment of PvP are we talking about? Beginners, average or experienced?

Does it really matter? Even watching the ESL shows that a Thief in a team is the weakest link.

Because afaik a d/d cele ele should not try to decap from another d/d cele ele over a point.. In an average/experience environment. Basically, you don’t try to decap a point unless its big in your favor (free or the one you counter; Ele vs Engi)

That’s exactly my point. Thief doesn’t counter anyone, but everyone counters Thief.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Terrorsquad.2349:

• Any other class can +1, but can’t deliver burst on demand => resulting in being slow in rotations and being outnumbered/outrotated later on (assuming enemy team has a Thief)

Burst is worthless. I’ve seen bunker Engi doesn’t even care about damage or burst as long as they can launch you out of the node so they can bunker down and cap it.

Like I said, if you can defend the node, no need to rotate. In a 3-1-1 split, even if you outnumber 3v5, they will only lose one node that they can retake on respawn.

And if it takes your whole team to take a node…I don’t believe you don’t see a problem there.

• If you’re going to replace Thief for a Warrior (assuming you don’t have a warrior yet), you’re in for an outrotation. Warriors are slow, despite their leap/swiftness (if we’re talking about the Meta).

As I said. Effectively defending a node requires less for rotation. If you can force the other team to always outnumber your team, that’s a win because they will always be outnumbered somewhere else.

• Shoutwarrs weak spot is burst. Your enemy thief is in for a free kill on your warrior once he’s outnumbered for few seconds.

Seeing that the Warrior is keeping the Thief and another enemy in a node means that the enemy team is outnumbered in other nodes.

My point is, every time the Thief leaves to outnumber a fight, they are weakening a node somewhere. I’ve seen this every time. Whenever a Thief helps to outnumber a fight, his team loses 1-2 nodes.

FYI;

• Any other class can take a node.. Ok.. But what environment of PvP are we talking about? Beginners, average or experienced?

Does it really matter? Even watching the ESL shows that a Thief in a team is the weakest link.

Because afaik a d/d cele ele should not try to decap from another d/d cele ele over a point.. In an average/experience environment. Basically, you don’t try to decap a point unless its big in your favor (free or the one you counter; Ele vs Engi)

That’s exactly my point. Thief doesn’t counter anyone, but everyone counters Thief.

My advise to you is to keep playing PvP. Once you get more experienced and start playing against more skilled opponents you’ll begin to see why thieves are so good in PvP, at least in my opinion.

Verzuu.9152:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Terrorsquad.2349:

• Any other class can +1, but can’t deliver burst on demand => resulting in being slow in rotations and being outnumbered/outrotated later on (assuming enemy team has a Thief)

Burst is worthless. I’ve seen bunker Engi doesn’t even care about damage or burst as long as they can launch you out of the node so they can bunker down and cap it.

Like I said, if you can defend the node, no need to rotate. In a 3-1-1 split, even if you outnumber 3v5, they will only lose one node that they can retake on respawn.

And if it takes your whole team to take a node…I don’t believe you don’t see a problem there.

• If you’re going to replace Thief for a Warrior (assuming you don’t have a warrior yet), you’re in for an outrotation. Warriors are slow, despite their leap/swiftness (if we’re talking about the Meta).

As I said. Effectively defending a node requires less for rotation. If you can force the other team to always outnumber your team, that’s a win because they will always be outnumbered somewhere else.

• Shoutwarrs weak spot is burst. Your enemy thief is in for a free kill on your warrior once he’s outnumbered for few seconds.

Seeing that the Warrior is keeping the Thief and another enemy in a node means that the enemy team is outnumbered in other nodes.

My point is, every time the Thief leaves to outnumber a fight, they are weakening a node somewhere. I’ve seen this every time. Whenever a Thief helps to outnumber a fight, his team loses 1-2 nodes.

FYI;

• Any other class can take a node.. Ok.. But what environment of PvP are we talking about? Beginners, average or experienced?

Does it really matter? Even watching the ESL shows that a Thief in a team is the weakest link.

Because afaik a d/d cele ele should not try to decap from another d/d cele ele over a point.. In an average/experience environment. Basically, you don’t try to decap a point unless its big in your favor (free or the one you counter; Ele vs Engi)

That’s exactly my point. Thief doesn’t counter anyone, but everyone counters Thief.

My advise to you is to keep playing PvP. Once you get more experienced and start playing against more skilled opponents you’ll begin to see why thieves are so good in PvP, at least in my opinion.

It’s not really about me playing the profession, rather it’s about watching Thieves in tournaments that makes me face palm and shake my head. Not because the player is bad, rather it’s because Thief is a bad choice for PvP seeing what the current meta is — it’s anti-Thief.

Making Thief sounds like they make a difference in PvP only adds insult to injury.

Thieves are fine in PvE and WvW, but in PvP they suck. It’s hard to believe that the OP is even being serious about this topic.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Verzuu.9152:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Terrorsquad.2349:

• Any other class can +1, but can’t deliver burst on demand => resulting in being slow in rotations and being outnumbered/outrotated later on (assuming enemy team has a Thief)

Burst is worthless. I’ve seen bunker Engi doesn’t even care about damage or burst as long as they can launch you out of the node so they can bunker down and cap it.

Like I said, if you can defend the node, no need to rotate. In a 3-1-1 split, even if you outnumber 3v5, they will only lose one node that they can retake on respawn.

And if it takes your whole team to take a node…I don’t believe you don’t see a problem there.

• If you’re going to replace Thief for a Warrior (assuming you don’t have a warrior yet), you’re in for an outrotation. Warriors are slow, despite their leap/swiftness (if we’re talking about the Meta).

As I said. Effectively defending a node requires less for rotation. If you can force the other team to always outnumber your team, that’s a win because they will always be outnumbered somewhere else.

• Shoutwarrs weak spot is burst. Your enemy thief is in for a free kill on your warrior once he’s outnumbered for few seconds.

Seeing that the Warrior is keeping the Thief and another enemy in a node means that the enemy team is outnumbered in other nodes.

My point is, every time the Thief leaves to outnumber a fight, they are weakening a node somewhere. I’ve seen this every time. Whenever a Thief helps to outnumber a fight, his team loses 1-2 nodes.

FYI;

• Any other class can take a node.. Ok.. But what environment of PvP are we talking about? Beginners, average or experienced?

Does it really matter? Even watching the ESL shows that a Thief in a team is the weakest link.

Because afaik a d/d cele ele should not try to decap from another d/d cele ele over a point.. In an average/experience environment. Basically, you don’t try to decap a point unless its big in your favor (free or the one you counter; Ele vs Engi)

That’s exactly my point. Thief doesn’t counter anyone, but everyone counters Thief.

My advise to you is to keep playing PvP. Once you get more experienced and start playing against more skilled opponents you’ll begin to see why thieves are so good in PvP, at least in my opinion.

It’s not really about me playing the profession, rather it’s about watching Thieves in tournaments that makes me face palm and shake my head. Not because the player is bad, rather it’s because Thief is a bad choice for PvP seeing what the current meta is — it’s anti-Thief.

Making Thief sounds like they make a difference in PvP only adds insult to injury.

Thieves are fine in PvE and WvW, but in PvP they suck. It’s hard to believe that the OP is even being serious about this topic.

Ye, that’s why the number 1 teams of the world have thieves, right..?
Like, every Region; NA, EU and China nr1 teams have thieves…

You must be joking.. There’s no other way, right?

You don’t really get the Conquest rotation of thieves or you must be trolling..
For someone with an own website, you should be more careful about what you post and say on the forums… (and come with facts, not personal experiences to proof a point)

Terrorsquad.2349:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Verzuu.9152:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Terrorsquad.2349:

• Any other class can +1, but can’t deliver burst on demand => resulting in being slow in rotations and being outnumbered/outrotated later on (assuming enemy team has a Thief)

Burst is worthless. I’ve seen bunker Engi doesn’t even care about damage or burst as long as they can launch you out of the node so they can bunker down and cap it.

Like I said, if you can defend the node, no need to rotate. In a 3-1-1 split, even if you outnumber 3v5, they will only lose one node that they can retake on respawn.

And if it takes your whole team to take a node…I don’t believe you don’t see a problem there.

• If you’re going to replace Thief for a Warrior (assuming you don’t have a warrior yet), you’re in for an outrotation. Warriors are slow, despite their leap/swiftness (if we’re talking about the Meta).

As I said. Effectively defending a node requires less for rotation. If you can force the other team to always outnumber your team, that’s a win because they will always be outnumbered somewhere else.

• Shoutwarrs weak spot is burst. Your enemy thief is in for a free kill on your warrior once he’s outnumbered for few seconds.

Seeing that the Warrior is keeping the Thief and another enemy in a node means that the enemy team is outnumbered in other nodes.

My point is, every time the Thief leaves to outnumber a fight, they are weakening a node somewhere. I’ve seen this every time. Whenever a Thief helps to outnumber a fight, his team loses 1-2 nodes.

FYI;

• Any other class can take a node.. Ok.. But what environment of PvP are we talking about? Beginners, average or experienced?

Does it really matter? Even watching the ESL shows that a Thief in a team is the weakest link.

Because afaik a d/d cele ele should not try to decap from another d/d cele ele over a point.. In an average/experience environment. Basically, you don’t try to decap a point unless its big in your favor (free or the one you counter; Ele vs Engi)

That’s exactly my point. Thief doesn’t counter anyone, but everyone counters Thief.

My advise to you is to keep playing PvP. Once you get more experienced and start playing against more skilled opponents you’ll begin to see why thieves are so good in PvP, at least in my opinion.

It’s not really about me playing the profession, rather it’s about watching Thieves in tournaments that makes me face palm and shake my head. Not because the player is bad, rather it’s because Thief is a bad choice for PvP seeing what the current meta is — it’s anti-Thief.

Making Thief sounds like they make a difference in PvP only adds insult to injury.

Thieves are fine in PvE and WvW, but in PvP they suck. It’s hard to believe that the OP is even being serious about this topic.

Ye, that’s why the number 1 teams of the world have thieves, right..?
Like, every Region; NA, EU and China nr1 teams have thieves…

Right, because looking at the top team is proof enough that Thief is viable.

Even though after watching The Abjured vs Orange Logo match proves that OL won not because they have a Thief, rather because they kept the TA’s whole team in the mines in a 3v4 fight while their Thief and Guard protects the other node in a 2v1 fight.

This is my point. Magic Toker was trying to outnumber the enemy in the mines, but that didn’t work because the combination of Warrior, Ele, and Engi in a node is really solid.

You must be joking.. There’s no other way, right?

You don’t really get the Conquest rotation of thieves or you must be trolling..

What you’re not acknowledging is that, in order for the Thief (or any profession) to rotate, your other team members need to be able to hold their own and protect the node.

OL didn’t need to rotate at all because they were doing a great job defending a node.

I’ll just repeat myself here; “Effectively defending a node requires less for rotation.”

For someone with an own website, you should be more careful about what you post and say on the forums… (and come with facts, not personal experiences to proof a point)

You want proof on what I’m talking about?

Watch this and tell me if I don’t know what I’m talking about.

Less rotation means more points = wins game.

kitten , Vincent, since when did you get so negative about being a Thief in PvP? lol.

But I do agree with you though, I’ve always felt that no matter where I went, I was not helping at all since a good bunker will destroy me, or any other glass-ish profession will destroy me too. I can dance around a bit off the node, but with the amount of AoEs that every other class can stack, there’s nothing really I can do.

Lamuness.3570:

kitten , Vincent, since when did you get so negative about being a Thief in PvP? lol.

But I do agree with you though, I’ve always felt that no matter where I went, I was not helping at all since a good bunker will destroy me, or any other glass-ish profession will destroy me too. I can dance around a bit off the node, but with the amount of AoEs that every other class can stack, there’s nothing really I can do.

Exactly! — even watching the so-called-pros leaves me disappointed. One Thief taking the OP’s advice trying to outnumber the opponent but failed horribly and costs them the game. On the other team, the Thief is so bored because the rest of his team is doing so well without him. /facepalm /shakeshead

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Lamuness.3570:

kitten , Vincent, since when did you get so negative about being a Thief in PvP? lol.

But I do agree with you though, I’ve always felt that no matter where I went, I was not helping at all since a good bunker will destroy me, or any other glass-ish profession will destroy me too. I can dance around a bit off the node, but with the amount of AoEs that every other class can stack, there’s nothing really I can do.

Exactly! — even watching the so-called-pros leaves me disappointed. One Thief taking the OP’s advice trying to outnumber the opponent but failed horribly and costs them the game. On the other team, the Thief is so bored because the rest of his team is doing so well without him. /facepalm /shakeshead

I can’t help but wonder how ‘good’ you must be on Thief.. If you’re disappointed about good thieves, what does that make you? A better one, right? I don’t know you, though..

Edit: there’s not a single sign of you on current Leaderboard nor the pre-december Leaderboard.. I wonder…

Terrorsquad.2349:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Lamuness.3570:

kitten , Vincent, since when did you get so negative about being a Thief in PvP? lol.

But I do agree with you though, I’ve always felt that no matter where I went, I was not helping at all since a good bunker will destroy me, or any other glass-ish profession will destroy me too. I can dance around a bit off the node, but with the amount of AoEs that every other class can stack, there’s nothing really I can do.

Exactly! — even watching the so-called-pros leaves me disappointed. One Thief taking the OP’s advice trying to outnumber the opponent but failed horribly and costs them the game. On the other team, the Thief is so bored because the rest of his team is doing so well without him. /facepalm /shakeshead

I can’t help but wonder how ‘good’ you must be on Thief.. If you’re disappointed about good thieves, what does that make you? A better one, right? I don’t know you, though..

Edit: there’s not a single sign of you on current Leaderboard nor the pre-december Leaderboard.. I wonder…

Ad hom is always a default pseudo counter. What’s next? Are you going to challenge me to duel you?

So you’re telling me that my personal performance on Thief somehow directly reflects the sad performance I’ve witnessed on the video I’ve linked?

And if somehow my appearance on the leaderboard justifies that the Thief is viable by just doing what you’re suggesting?

The fact is, Magic Toker did in that match exactly what you’re suggesting in this thread and failed miserably — which means, your suggestion is not applicable, else The Abjured should have won.

Do I really have to repeat myself? For your sake I will;

“Effectively defending a node requires less for rotation.”
“Less rotation means more points = wins game.”

Thanks for posting this Terror! It’s helpful, useful, and most importantly a good example of a problem.

Vincent is 100% correct – thief is completely outclassed in the current meta. Your video and tips almost explicitly say so.

“Don’t try to 1v1 unless it’s a thief (the weak class you’re playing) or a mesmer (the class thief hard counters).” – what other class in the game running its meta spec can only handle 1/4 of the class choices in a 1 on 1?

“Only outnumber fights, don’t try to even them up” – Thief isn’t even good enough to run in an even fight – they’re only good for +1’ing a fight, which isn’t heartening, any class can make a fight uneven and do so successfully. What good is outnumbering a fight then you’re leaving your team outnumbered somewhere else?

I’ve said this before, but what good is mobility if you’re kitten near worthless when you get to your point? If you’re so weak that you can only make a difference when your outnumbering your opponents, why bother? As vincent keeps saying, taking a class that can effectively defend a point instead of a thief means less rotation, which means more points, which means winning the game.

Thief is in a horrible place right now – your guide paints a very clear portrait of that.

You can’t look at a class that shouldn’t 1v1 6 out of 7 classes (we won’t count thief v thief for obvious reasons) and shouldn’t even consider evening up a fight and pretend it’s in a good place.

I just don’t know if a Thief class is suitable for conquest. When I played on Courtyard, I had a blast. If Arenanet could implement Arenas (hiyo) better, then I think that is where Thief shines the most. You don’t have to worry about capping points, you can be mobile and port around anywhere, disengage, kick a cow, do whatever you want. The fact that we are locked into this tiny circle that every other class can drop a ton of AoEs on makes us a bit unusable.

Of course, this is just my opinion, and I don’t claim to be the best thief in the world.

Before this gets out of hand into a slugfest, I would like to hear from Vincent, as per OP’s topic title:

What are a thief’s strengths in sPvP currently, and how do we go about playing to our strengths? What should we be looking for and what should we avoid? This thread isn’t about what is wrong with thieves but how we can get around and be effective in sPvP.

I’d ask terror, but he made that video (thanks for that btw!)

Lamuness.3570:

What are a thief’s strengths in sPvP currently, and how do we go about playing to our strengths?

Mobility is our strength in PvP, which sadly has no value. Even if you are the first to reach a node, once the other team gets there, we have no capability defending it. How do you defend a node from an Engi who just blast you off the node? We don’t have a reliable access to stability against a profession that can pull and push us all over the place without even trying.

What should we be looking for and what should we avoid?

Avoid PvP as a Thief altogether and just play other professions. Until ArenaNet takes a hard look at Thieves and makes a very meaningful balance, it’s not worth wasting your time. ArenaNet first needs to define what role they want the Thief to take, then give us the skills, trait, and utility in order to perform that role. Right now, we’re neither tank, support, nor DPS. We’re nothing but bunnies who hops around the map.

This thread isn’t about what is wrong with thieves but how we can get around and be effective in sPvP.

You can’t. There’s really no other way around. Our build diversity is too narrow, either you build S/D or D/P, unfortunately, those aren’t that great either against the current meta. I’ve watched Sizer too in the past having a hard time taking down a Ranger at a node. Jumper, Magic Toker and Sizer are high-level Thieves in PvP, and to see them struggle or stopped playing completely is just sad.

evilapprentice.6379:

Thanks for posting this Terror! It’s helpful, useful, and most importantly a good example of a problem.

Vincent is 100% correct – thief is completely outclassed in the current meta. Your video and tips almost explicitly say so.

“Don’t try to 1v1 unless it’s a thief (the weak class you’re playing) or a mesmer (the class thief hard counters).” – what other class in the game running its meta spec can only handle 1/4 of the class choices in a 1 on 1?

“Only outnumber fights, don’t try to even them up” – Thief isn’t even good enough to run in an even fight – they’re only good for +1’ing a fight, which isn’t heartening, any class can make a fight uneven and do so successfully. What good is outnumbering a fight then you’re leaving your team outnumbered somewhere else?

I’ve said this before, but what good is mobility if you’re kitten near worthless when you get to your point? If you’re so weak that you can only make a difference when your outnumbering your opponents, why bother? As vincent keeps saying, taking a class that can effectively defend a point instead of a thief means less rotation, which means more points, which means winning the game.

Thief is in a horrible place right now – your guide paints a very clear portrait of that.

You can’t look at a class that shouldn’t 1v1 6 out of 7 classes (we won’t count thief v thief for obvious reasons) and shouldn’t even consider evening up a fight and pretend it’s in a good place.

Hmm, I think you missunderstood the point of not having a 1v1 with a thief..

Let me explain with a concrete example:

• Point A has enemy d/d ele grabbing it
• You, as thief, should not engage
• If you do, it’s not that you’ll lose (well, eventually yes, vs an ele) but you’ll be +1’d by the enemy because the fight takes TOO long.
• Fights that take long are an extra oppurtunity for the Thief/mesmer to +1, obviously.

So again, the reason why you should not 1v1 as Thief (or basically w/e class you play which can’t decap quick enough or contest the point long enough) is because you get the risk of being +1’d. Not because the thief is weak.

Example:

• Sending a Shoutwarr to Point A in prev example to fight
• Fight will take atleast a minute if you let it end
• Doesn’t take a minute for Mes/Thief to come by and burst your shoutbow down in 2seconds
• Point A lost + 1 bunker/cele on respawn

Terrorsquad.2349:

evilapprentice.6379:

Thanks for posting this Terror! It’s helpful, useful, and most importantly a good example of a problem.

Vincent is 100% correct – thief is completely outclassed in the current meta. Your video and tips almost explicitly say so.

“Don’t try to 1v1 unless it’s a thief (the weak class you’re playing) or a mesmer (the class thief hard counters).” – what other class in the game running its meta spec can only handle 1/4 of the class choices in a 1 on 1?

“Only outnumber fights, don’t try to even them up” – Thief isn’t even good enough to run in an even fight – they’re only good for +1’ing a fight, which isn’t heartening, any class can make a fight uneven and do so successfully. What good is outnumbering a fight then you’re leaving your team outnumbered somewhere else?

I’ve said this before, but what good is mobility if you’re kitten near worthless when you get to your point? If you’re so weak that you can only make a difference when your outnumbering your opponents, why bother? As vincent keeps saying, taking a class that can effectively defend a point instead of a thief means less rotation, which means more points, which means winning the game.

Thief is in a horrible place right now – your guide paints a very clear portrait of that.

You can’t look at a class that shouldn’t 1v1 6 out of 7 classes (we won’t count thief v thief for obvious reasons) and shouldn’t even consider evening up a fight and pretend it’s in a good place.

Hmm, I think you missunderstood the point of not having a 1v1 with a thief..

Let me explain with a concrete example:

• Point A has enemy d/d ele grabbing it
• You, as thief, should not engage
• If you do, it’s not that you’ll lose (well, eventually yes, vs an ele) but you’ll be +1’d by the enemy because the fight takes TOO long.
• Fights that take long are an extra oppurtunity for the Thief/mesmer to +1, obviously.

… That’s just the very definition of “too weak” in a capture point game though. You made the video, you should be aware that “killing your opponent” is not the only criteria for a functioning spec – the amount of time it takes to do so is very important. If you can’t at minimum decap the point in a realistic amount of time, you’re too weak for the format. Thief has no tools for decapping, no tools for holding a point, and don’t do enough damage to burst down any of the meta bruisers solo.

So again, the reason why you should not 1v1 as Thief (or basically w/e class you play which can’t decap quick enough or contest the point long enough) is because you get the risk of being +1’d. Not because the thief is weak.

Out of curiosity, what classes other than Thief/Mesmer fall into this “Do not attempt 1v1’s” category?

Example:

• Sending a Shoutwarr to Point A in prev example to fight
• Fight will take atleast a minute if you let it end
• Doesn’t take a minute for Mes/Thief to come by and burst your shoutbow down in 2seconds
• Point A lost + 1 bunker/cele on respawn

I’d like to see your math on any viable thief spec bursting down any other non glass cannon in 2 seconds.

You also didn’t mention a word about “Only join teamfights to outnumber, never to even the odds” – how many other classes are considered ineffective in an even match, you think? Yeah, i get the idea that thief is incredibly mobile and would be more effective hitting up a separate capture point instead, but that only flies if said capture point is completely unattended or has a theif/mes at it (which it won’t, since neither class has the tools to hold a point against anyone). Not to mention that leaving your teammates in a X vs X-1 fight means your team is probably about to lose a point anyway.

It’s fine for a class to be weak in 1v1’s or team fights, but it’s kind of hard to see a class that’s weak in both as anything other than a burden in a capture point format.

There’s also the point that vincent keeps bringing up of the team which fielded a thief in the exact manner you’re describing and got completely shutdown because of it, which seems to lend more weight to his view than yours.

I see the value in everyone’s opinion here, and sadly, we’re attacking the messenger (Terror) and not the ones behind it (ANet). There’s nothing Terror can do except for give us his opinion on what works for him, and it’s up to us to take it, try it out, and hope for the best, or to just pick another class.

Sadly, I’m not in the position where I can pick another class because they all function too differently to what I’m used to, even though I would like to pick a better class and be helpful.

And thanks, Vincent, however it’s the same argument I’ve been hearing since GW1 about Assassins, and unfortunately I hope people will not give up and try to make the class work.

Lamuness.3570:

I see the value in everyone’s opinion here, and sadly, we’re attacking the messenger (Terror) and not the ones behind it (ANet).

I don’t believe I directly attacked the messenger.

There’s nothing Terror can do except for give us his opinion on what works for him, and it’s up to us to take it, try it out, and hope for the best, or to just pick another class.

Yes there is — we can all stop being an Unpaid PR for ArenaNet. Thief doesn’t work in PvP and they need to start acknowledging that. These top teams need to stop picking Thieves also because it shows an illusion that the profession is viable even when watching their Thief’s performance is proof of their uselessness.

And thanks, Vincent, however it’s the same argument I’ve been hearing since GW1 about Assassins, and unfortunately I hope people will not give up and try to make the class work.

It’s not really the same. In GW1, there is this thing called “secondary profession” which gives every profession a wide selection of skills and wide variety of builds to choose from. The situation in GW2 is that, each profession is stuck in their limited and boring skill pool. No room for diversification.

Thieves are on a really tight leash. We are forced to use either D/P or S/D + SB with a couple of builds and for whatever reason, the Dev is Ok with that.

Thieves are OK in PvE and WvW — the problem is in PvP. For instance, making revealed 4s is not only preventing Thieves from going invisible, but also preventing Thieves from using one of their main mechanic — stealth attack.

If this profession will ever work, ArenaNet needs to define our role and give us the tools to perform that role effectively.

Edit: There’s also another reason why Thieves are being treated like the Assassin, it’s because the same person who “balanced” GW1 is the same person “balancing” GW2. ArenaNet needs to hire someone with fresh perspective and fresh ideas and not sticking with the same old same old.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I don’t believe I directly attacked the messenger.

I know, it’s just that sometimes instead of stating the obvious that our class is flawed, I’d like to try to steer the thread to something a bit more constructive.

I’d like to hear directly from ANet why they feel Thieves are in the place that they are. I agree with you that there are only a handful of viable builds and they have no room for customization. I’d like to think that they’ve found something broken with the class that we’re overlooking, which is why they’re keeping their mouths shut and balancing our class the way that they do. But I agree with this statement :

Edit: There’s also another reason why Thieves are being treated like the Assassin, it’s because the same person who “balanced” GW1 is the same person “balancing” GW2. ArenaNet needs to hire someone with fresh perspective and fresh ideas and not sticking with the same old same old.

Lamuness.3570:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

I don’t believe I directly attacked the messenger.

I know, it’s just that sometimes instead of stating the obvious that our class is flawed, I’d like to try to steer the thread to something a bit more constructive.

I’d like to hear directly from ANet why they feel Thieves are in the place that they are.

A lot of us have been waiting for that explanation since beta — and a lot of other explanation like why do they think that Venom Aura is a good idea.

I agree with you that there are only a handful of viable builds and they have no room for customization. I’d like to think that they’ve found something broken with the class that we’re overlooking, which is why they’re keeping their mouths shut and balancing our class the way that they do.

The thing is, they will always fail to balance Thief until they clearly specify what they want the profession do. Once they do, they need to tweak our profession to effectively fulfill that role.

It’s no surprise that there is a profession bias in GW2. Since the leading Dev in balance team is playing a Warrior, a lot of good changes was given to the profession — all other professions need to be lackluster when compared to Warriors. No other professions have the passive healing capability and high defense of the Warrior while at the same time can deal huge damage using whatever weapon they choose.

This bias and unfairness need to stop.

1. Ele/Shoutbow can be downed in 2 seconds by thief/mesmer, that’s… plain knowledge by now.
2. If you say a class which can’t decap in a short time, than d/d eles and shoutbow are bad too. (following your theory:
" If you can’t at minimum decap the point in a realistic amount of time, you’re too weak for the format. Thieves have no decap tools…" Do eles have decap tools? Or Shoutbow?) I bet I can faster decap a point as Thief vs Shoutbow than Shoutbow vs Shoutbow.
3. Comps with 1 thief will mostly win vs full cele/bunker, because of rotations purely, even if u stay stationary and play close-mid all the time. The team with the dps will eventually take over your points slowly and you’ll punish yourself with lack of damage to capture it back

Look at ALL the competitive teams.. They all got thieves.. Not because they’re bad

Terrorsquad.2349:

Look at ALL the competitive teams.. They all got thieves.. Not because they’re bad

That argument again…you are yet to counter what I’ve posted counter to this.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Terrorsquad.2349:

Look at ALL the competitive teams.. They all got thieves.. Not because they’re bad

That argument again…you are yet to counter what I’ve posted counter to this.

I already do and did, every single day. Quite easy to beat, as I said..

I just wanted to add in here that I think thieves are far from useless in pvp. It really just depends on your build, the opponents’ build, and the skill levels of each.

As an example, medi guard is a huge uphill battle on a power based thief. On a P/D + D/D thief (50036) the builds are much more on par with each other so it will come down to skill level.

Also, I don’t think we should necessarily limit ourselves to 2 viable/meta builds. Condi thieves with caltrops vand already put some major pressure on nodes, punishing people for staying on them. D/D power is still pretty useful in spiking someone down in a team fight. The extra 4kish damage from CnD really helps.

Are thieves perfect? No. Is there room for improvement? Yep. Are we useless? Definitely not.

Maugetarr.6823:

Are thieves perfect? No. Is there room for improvement? Yep. Are we useless? Definitely not.

^that’s basically it

the main thing we see in thieves in pvp is the ability to decap/cap faster with movement ability and stealth. while looking for the -50% hp enemy who not standing in aoe for fast kill. other than that you dont see them even looking for 1v1 on point rather looking to help in 4v3 or 3v2 and run to decap unguard point
so bascialy roatation rotation rotation (same as mesmer with portal mainly)

messiah.1908:

the main thing we see in thieves in pvp is the ability to decap/cap faster with movement ability and stealth. while looking for the -50% hp enemy who not standing in aoe for fast kill. other than that you dont see them even looking for 1v1 on point rather looking to help in 4v3 or 3v2 and run to decap unguard point
so bascialy roatation rotation rotation (same as mesmer with portal mainly)

Exactly!

messiah.1908:

the main thing we see in thieves in pvp is the ability to decap/cap faster with movement ability and stealth. while looking for the -50% hp enemy who not standing in aoe for fast kill. other than that you dont see them even looking for 1v1 on point rather looking to help in 4v3 or 3v2 and run to decap unguard point
so bascialy roatation rotation rotation (same as mesmer with portal mainly)

That strategy only works if your opponent is rotating with you. Thieves become useless when the opponent starts bunkering and refuse to rotate.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

messiah.1908:

the main thing we see in thieves in pvp is the ability to decap/cap faster with movement ability and stealth. while looking for the -50% hp enemy who not standing in aoe for fast kill. other than that you dont see them even looking for 1v1 on point rather looking to help in 4v3 or 3v2 and run to decap unguard point
so bascialy roatation rotation rotation (same as mesmer with portal mainly)

That strategy only works if your opponent is rotating with you. Thieves become useless when the opponent starts bunkering and refuse to rotate.

Which, obviously, doesn’t happen in top tier pvp (where they obviously all rotate). Thieves are not only viable, but also optimal in mid to high tier.

Terrorsquad.2349:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

messiah.1908:

the main thing we see in thieves in pvp is the ability to decap/cap faster with movement ability and stealth. while looking for the -50% hp enemy who not standing in aoe for fast kill. other than that you dont see them even looking for 1v1 on point rather looking to help in 4v3 or 3v2 and run to decap unguard point
so bascialy roatation rotation rotation (same as mesmer with portal mainly)

That strategy only works if your opponent is rotating with you. Thieves become useless when the opponent starts bunkering and refuse to rotate.

Which, obviously, doesn’t happen in top tier pvp (where they obviously all rotate). Thieves are not only viable, but also optimal in mid to high tier.

We can go at this back and forth but the truth of the matter is, strategy changes during a particular match and as a Thief, you should not focus your build on speed traveling — you need to be able to take out any defender. According to you, Thief cannot do that, nor should they do that.

Rather, what some of us are trying to say is for any player who wants to PvP, they need to learn flexibility. You can’t just say that you’ll play Thief and that’s that. You’re just hurting your team that way.

You should pick a profession that complements your team’s strategy and play style. Pick a profession that will give your team the flexibility it needs even if it means not using a Thief.

About, “Which, obviously, doesn’t happen in top tier pvp (where they obviously all rotate)” — watch the video I linked and tell me if they “ALL” rotate.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Terrorsquad.2349:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

messiah.1908:

the main thing we see in thieves in pvp is the ability to decap/cap faster with movement ability and stealth. while looking for the -50% hp enemy who not standing in aoe for fast kill. other than that you dont see them even looking for 1v1 on point rather looking to help in 4v3 or 3v2 and run to decap unguard point
so bascialy roatation rotation rotation (same as mesmer with portal mainly)

That strategy only works if your opponent is rotating with you. Thieves become useless when the opponent starts bunkering and refuse to rotate.

Which, obviously, doesn’t happen in top tier pvp (where they obviously all rotate). Thieves are not only viable, but also optimal in mid to high tier.

We can go at this back and forth but the truth of the matter is, strategy changes during a particular match and as a Thief, you should not focus your build on speed traveling — you need to be able to take out any defender. According to you, Thief cannot do that, nor should they do that.

Rather, what some of us are trying to say is for any player who wants to PvP, they need to learn flexibility. You can’t just say that you’ll play Thief and that’s that. You’re just hurting your team that way.

You should pick a profession that complements your team’s strategy and play style. Pick a profession that will give your team the flexibility it needs even if it means not using a Thief.

About, “Which, obviously, doesn’t happen in top tier pvp (where they obviously all rotate)” — watch the video I linked and tell me if they “ALL” rotate.

Staying on point for few counts is actually rotating aswel (waiting for respawn and/or keeping them busy).
Keep saying Thieves are useless/bad in current PvP is utter ignorance and an opinion, far from being a fact.

The 3 top teams of ALL 3 regions have a Thief.
And hey, they’re the best in their Region (aka they win vs teams without Thieves or aka bunker teams). Coincidence?

I don’t think so. The proof is there. Even if they’re the best, I admit, they make mistakes too. But it’s easier for us to say as backseatplayers, right?

I stick to my opinion that Thieves remain a must for a good-high tier team and certainly in the coming patch (if the traits remain the same as shown in preview)

you should not focus your build on speed traveling — you need to be able to take out any defender. According to you, Thief cannot do that, nor should they do that.

Uh… No1 should actually start a useless 1v1 unless they can handle the fight fast enough before being outnumbered theirselves. Basic 101 EU PvP rule :p
Ofcourse D/P Thief has the potential to handle ‘most’ 1v1’s, but he doesn’t got the time for it. Nor does other classes, since it will take longer.

Terrorsquad.2349:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Terrorsquad.2349:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

messiah.1908:

the main thing we see in thieves in pvp is the ability to decap/cap faster with movement ability and stealth. while looking for the -50% hp enemy who not standing in aoe for fast kill. other than that you dont see them even looking for 1v1 on point rather looking to help in 4v3 or 3v2 and run to decap unguard point
so bascialy roatation rotation rotation (same as mesmer with portal mainly)

That strategy only works if your opponent is rotating with you. Thieves become useless when the opponent starts bunkering and refuse to rotate.

Which, obviously, doesn’t happen in top tier pvp (where they obviously all rotate). Thieves are not only viable, but also optimal in mid to high tier.

We can go at this back and forth but the truth of the matter is, strategy changes during a particular match and as a Thief, you should not focus your build on speed traveling — you need to be able to take out any defender. According to you, Thief cannot do that, nor should they do that.

Rather, what some of us are trying to say is for any player who wants to PvP, they need to learn flexibility. You can’t just say that you’ll play Thief and that’s that. You’re just hurting your team that way.

You should pick a profession that complements your team’s strategy and play style. Pick a profession that will give your team the flexibility it needs even if it means not using a Thief.

About, “Which, obviously, doesn’t happen in top tier pvp (where they obviously all rotate)” — watch the video I linked and tell me if they “ALL” rotate.

Staying on point for few counts is actually rotating aswel (waiting for respawn and/or keeping them busy).
Keep saying Thieves are useless/bad in current PvP is utter ignorance and an opinion, far from being a fact.

Really now? You said it yourself that the only role of Thieves is to find unguarded node and outnumber fights. Neither work in that video match I’ve linked.

The 3 top teams of ALL 3 regions have a Thief.
And hey, they’re the best in their Region (aka they win vs teams without Thieves or aka bunker teams). Coincidence?

What about the teams with Thieves that loses? Like The Abjured vs. Orange Logo?

In that match, Orange Logo’s Thief is just messing around most of the time — not needed — because 3 members of their team, which none are Thief, were carrying the team that won them the game while OL’s Guardian is the one protecting the nodes.

I don’t think so. The proof is there. Even if they’re the best, I admit, they make mistakes too. But it’s easier for us to say as backseatplayers, right?

Ah yes, and the biggest mistake is taking a Thief.

I stick to my opinion that Thieves remain a must for a good-high tier team and certainly in the coming patch (if the traits remain the same as shown in preview)

Yes and you are entitled to it, sure.

you should not focus your build on speed traveling — you need to be able to take out any defender. According to you, Thief cannot do that, nor should they do that.

Uh… No1 should actually start a useless 1v1 unless they can handle the fight fast enough before being outnumbered theirselves. Basic 101 EU PvP rule :p

Of course, that’s why we don’t see Necros and Engineer single-handedly taking nodes and successfully defending it. They might not have read the Basic 101 memo.

Ofcourse D/P Thief has the potential to handle ‘most’ 1v1’s, but he doesn’t got the time for it. Nor does other classes, since it will take longer.

I wonder why Thief “doesn’t got the time” to do 1v1…hmm perhaps it has something to do with the nerf they received and the number increase of the bunker/cele builds? Hmm…

On the contrary, Engi and Necro can 1v1 because all they have to do is to get the defender out of the node so that they can decap/cap it. They don’t need to do damage nor do they need to kill the opposition — just get them off the node and stay tanky.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

messiah.1908:

the main thing we see in thieves in pvp is the ability to decap/cap faster with movement ability and stealth. while looking for the -50% hp enemy who not standing in aoe for fast kill. other than that you dont see them even looking for 1v1 on point rather looking to help in 4v3 or 3v2 and run to decap unguard point
so bascialy roatation rotation rotation (same as mesmer with portal mainly)

That strategy only works if your opponent is rotating with you. Thieves become useless when the opponent starts bunkering and refuse to rotate.

I dont really get how he becomes any more useless than another profession if we go by the example you gave earlier in this thread. The thief might not be as “valueable” in a straight up team fight but that doesnt mean that he doesnt bring anything to the table, in fact he does bring quite a bit.

1x Bunker engi far + 4 Mid was it right? In that scenario it doesnt matter if you have a thief with you or not you 5vs4 them then train down the bunker engi on far. If you do have a thief you could 3vs4 mid and 2vs1 far kill the engi quickly then play with 2 node or go back to mid depends what u wanna do and ofc how everything goes…

If bunker engi leaves far to make it 5vs5 you decap it quickly then go back to make it a 5vs4 again or 2 uncontested nodes for the enemy while u tick on your home. This takes like 10-20 sec depending on map for the thief there is no other profession in the game that can do it as quickly.

Thief is also very strong at finishing key targets once they drop low which is very easy to do (Steal -> HS) and very hard to avoid especially on other zerker builds because you cannot LoS it most of the time or get out of range because he can chain it with other shadow steps. Coupled with his mobility he can jump around the map very quickly, apply pressure and get out again better than any other zerker build.

Take two teams for example on khylo one running thief the other is fancy and goes with zerker gs / sword warrior to kind of fill the roamer spot. Even if your warrior is a better player and beats the thief without much effort the thief can pretty much always disengange and engage when it fits him and there is little the warrior can do to stop getting harrassed and eventually die down. If he enters another fight and tries to avoid you, it is pretty much his downstate sentence.

Edit: Also here is a good video you should watch, it is quite old but caed explains the role of a thief pretty well, and it hasnt changed all that much.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

messiah.1908:

the main thing we see in thieves in pvp is the ability to decap/cap faster with movement ability and stealth. while looking for the -50% hp enemy who not standing in aoe for fast kill. other than that you dont see them even looking for 1v1 on point rather looking to help in 4v3 or 3v2 and run to decap unguard point
so bascialy roatation rotation rotation (same as mesmer with portal mainly)

That strategy only works if your opponent is rotating with you. Thieves become useless when the opponent starts bunkering and refuse to rotate.

I dont really get how he becomes any more useless than another profession if we go by the example you gave earlier in this thread. The thief might not be as “valueable” in a straight up team fight but that doesnt mean that he doesnt bring anything to the table, in fact he does bring quite a bit.

1x Bunker engi far + 4 Mid was it right? In that scenario it doesnt matter if you have a thief with you or not you 5vs4 them then train down the bunker engi on far.

In the video I linked, the the team The Abjured went 5v3 including their Thief and cannot take the node.

If bunker engi leaves

Which they won’t, because seeing that his team of 4 is handling their team of 5 means, they are putting points on the score board.

far to make it 5vs5 you decap it quickly then go back to make it a 5vs4 again or 2 uncontested nodes for the enemy while u tick on your home.

Nobody does that. When a team holds a two nodes, they tend to keep it..

This takes like 10-20 sec depending on map for the thief there is no other profession in the game that can do it as quickly.

My example was 3-1-1 split. One Engi in each node and 3 mid. A Thief will never get a free open node.

Thief is also very strong at finishing key targets once they drop low which is very easy to do (Steal -> HS) and very hard to avoid especially on other zerker builds because you cannot LoS it most of the time or get out of range because he can chain it with other shadow steps. Coupled with his mobility he can jump around the map very quickly, apply pressure and get out again better than any other zerker build.

I like to believe that, but that is just not the case due to the current meta.

Take two teams for example on khylo one running thief the other is fancy and goes with zerker gs / sword warrior to kind of fill the roamer spot. Even if your warrior is a better player and beats the thief without much effort the thief can pretty much always disengange and engage when it fits him and there is little the warrior can do to stop getting harrassed and eventually die down. If he enters another fight and tries to avoid you, it is pretty much his downstate sentence.

I have stated my opinion so I’ll leave it at that.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

messiah.1908:

the main thing we see in thieves in pvp is the ability to decap/cap faster with movement ability and stealth. while looking for the -50% hp enemy who not standing in aoe for fast kill. other than that you dont see them even looking for 1v1 on point rather looking to help in 4v3 or 3v2 and run to decap unguard point
so bascialy roatation rotation rotation (same as mesmer with portal mainly)

That strategy only works if your opponent is rotating with you. Thieves become useless when the opponent starts bunkering and refuse to rotate.

I dont really get how he becomes any more useless than another profession if we go by the example you gave earlier in this thread. The thief might not be as “valueable” in a straight up team fight but that doesnt mean that he doesnt bring anything to the table, in fact he does bring quite a bit.

1x Bunker engi far + 4 Mid was it right? In that scenario it doesnt matter if you have a thief with you or not you 5vs4 them then train down the bunker engi on far.

In the video I linked, the the team The Abjured went 5v3 including their Thief and cannot take the node.

If bunker engi leaves

Which they won’t, because seeing that his team of 4 is handling their team of 5 means, they are putting points on the score board.

far to make it 5vs5 you decap it quickly then go back to make it a 5vs4 again or 2 uncontested nodes for the enemy while u tick on your home.

Nobody does that. When a team holds a two nodes, they tend to keep it..

This takes like 10-20 sec depending on map for the thief there is no other profession in the game that can do it as quickly.

My example was 3-1-1 split. One Engi in each node and 3 mid. A Thief will never get a free open node.

Thief is also very strong at finishing key targets once they drop low which is very easy to do (Steal -> HS) and very hard to avoid especially on other zerker builds because you cannot LoS it most of the time or get out of range because he can chain it with other shadow steps. Coupled with his mobility he can jump around the map very quickly, apply pressure and get out again better than any other zerker build.

I like to believe that, but that is just not the case due to the current meta.

Take two teams for example on khylo one running thief the other is fancy and goes with zerker gs / sword warrior to kind of fill the roamer spot. Even if your warrior is a better player and beats the thief without much effort the thief can pretty much always disengange and engage when it fits him and there is little the warrior can do to stop getting harrassed and eventually die down. If he enters another fight and tries to avoid you, it is pretty much his downstate sentence.

I have stated my opinion so I’ll leave it at that.

Youre quick on the response

i edited my post and linked a video you should check out, quite old but very informative when it comes to thieves in spvp.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

messiah.1908:

the main thing we see in thieves in pvp is the ability to decap/cap faster with movement ability and stealth. while looking for the -50% hp enemy who not standing in aoe for fast kill. other than that you dont see them even looking for 1v1 on point rather looking to help in 4v3 or 3v2 and run to decap unguard point
so bascialy roatation rotation rotation (same as mesmer with portal mainly)

That strategy only works if your opponent is rotating with you. Thieves become useless when the opponent starts bunkering and refuse to rotate.

I dont really get how he becomes any more useless than another profession if we go by the example you gave earlier in this thread. The thief might not be as “valueable” in a straight up team fight but that doesnt mean that he doesnt bring anything to the table, in fact he does bring quite a bit.

1x Bunker engi far + 4 Mid was it right? In that scenario it doesnt matter if you have a thief with you or not you 5vs4 them then train down the bunker engi on far.

In the video I linked, the the team The Abjured went 5v3 including their Thief and cannot take the node.

If bunker engi leaves

Which they won’t, because seeing that his team of 4 is handling their team of 5 means, they are putting points on the score board.

far to make it 5vs5 you decap it quickly then go back to make it a 5vs4 again or 2 uncontested nodes for the enemy while u tick on your home.

Nobody does that. When a team holds a two nodes, they tend to keep it..

This takes like 10-20 sec depending on map for the thief there is no other profession in the game that can do it as quickly.

My example was 3-1-1 split. One Engi in each node and 3 mid. A Thief will never get a free open node.

Thief is also very strong at finishing key targets once they drop low which is very easy to do (Steal -> HS) and very hard to avoid especially on other zerker builds because you cannot LoS it most of the time or get out of range because he can chain it with other shadow steps. Coupled with his mobility he can jump around the map very quickly, apply pressure and get out again better than any other zerker build.

I like to believe that, but that is just not the case due to the current meta.

Take two teams for example on khylo one running thief the other is fancy and goes with zerker gs / sword warrior to kind of fill the roamer spot. Even if your warrior is a better player and beats the thief without much effort the thief can pretty much always disengange and engage when it fits him and there is little the warrior can do to stop getting harrassed and eventually die down. If he enters another fight and tries to avoid you, it is pretty much his downstate sentence.

I have stated my opinion so I’ll leave it at that.

I havent watched video but i guess the thief has failed as much as the other 4 classes involved…

3 – 1 – 1 with them all holding the nodes? I dont know what the thief has to do with any of the decisions you would make unless you want to say that he is completely useless in a 2vs1 situation…

If the enemies are stupid enough to not rotate (which you implied i think) you just go 5vs3 close then go on from there…

Edited a bit cuz failed too much its late lol

As a new thief player, I especially value instructional videos. This is even more true when there argument and discussion like what’s going on in this thread.bI often learn just as much about the strengths and weaknesses of a class from such posts.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Terrorsquad.2349:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Terrorsquad.2349:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

messiah.1908:

the main thing we see in thieves in pvp is the ability to decap/cap faster with movement ability and stealth. while looking for the -50% hp enemy who not standing in aoe for fast kill. other than that you dont see them even looking for 1v1 on point rather looking to help in 4v3 or 3v2 and run to decap unguard point
so bascialy roatation rotation rotation (same as mesmer with portal mainly)

That strategy only works if your opponent is rotating with you. Thieves become useless when the opponent starts bunkering and refuse to rotate.

Which, obviously, doesn’t happen in top tier pvp (where they obviously all rotate). Thieves are not only viable, but also optimal in mid to high tier.

We can go at this back and forth but the truth of the matter is, strategy changes during a particular match and as a Thief, you should not focus your build on speed traveling — you need to be able to take out any defender. According to you, Thief cannot do that, nor should they do that.

Rather, what some of us are trying to say is for any player who wants to PvP, they need to learn flexibility. You can’t just say that you’ll play Thief and that’s that. You’re just hurting your team that way.

You should pick a profession that complements your team’s strategy and play style. Pick a profession that will give your team the flexibility it needs even if it means not using a Thief.

About, “Which, obviously, doesn’t happen in top tier pvp (where they obviously all rotate)” — watch the video I linked and tell me if they “ALL” rotate.

Staying on point for few counts is actually rotating aswel (waiting for respawn and/or keeping them busy).
Keep saying Thieves are useless/bad in current PvP is utter ignorance and an opinion, far from being a fact.

Really now? You said it yourself that the only role of Thieves is to find unguarded node and outnumber fights. Neither work in that video match I’ve linked.

The 3 top teams of ALL 3 regions have a Thief.
And hey, they’re the best in their Region (aka they win vs teams without Thieves or aka bunker teams). Coincidence?

What about the teams with Thieves that loses? Like The Abjured vs. Orange Logo?

In that match, Orange Logo’s Thief is just messing around most of the time — not needed — because 3 members of their team, which none are Thief, were carrying the team that won them the game while OL’s Guardian is the one protecting the nodes.

I don’t think so. The proof is there. Even if they’re the best, I admit, they make mistakes too. But it’s easier for us to say as backseatplayers, right?

Ah yes, and the biggest mistake is taking a Thief.

I stick to my opinion that Thieves remain a must for a good-high tier team and certainly in the coming patch (if the traits remain the same as shown in preview)

Yes and you are entitled to it, sure.

you should not focus your build on speed traveling — you need to be able to take out any defender. According to you, Thief cannot do that, nor should they do that.

Uh… No1 should actually start a useless 1v1 unless they can handle the fight fast enough before being outnumbered theirselves. Basic 101 EU PvP rule :p

Of course, that’s why we don’t see Necros and Engineer single-handedly taking nodes and successfully defending it. They might not have read the Basic 101 memo.

Ofcourse D/P Thief has the potential to handle ‘most’ 1v1’s, but he doesn’t got the time for it. Nor does other classes, since it will take longer.

I wonder why Thief “doesn’t got the time” to do 1v1…hmm perhaps it has something to do with the nerf they received and the number increase of the bunker/cele builds? Hmm…

On the contrary, Engi and Necro can 1v1 because all they have to do is to get the defender out of the node so that they can decap/cap it. They don’t need to do damage nor do they need to kill the opposition — just get them off the node and stay tanky.

I give up. As someone said above, it might be good to actually play pvp once in a while to learn stuff. Just saying stuff without actually be good and just from ‘watching’ games doesn’t make you right at all. If you don’t know pvp as good, you can’t possibly 100% understand whats going on in ESL/go4 Matches. Linking one or 2 vids doesn’t proof anything since RiP and oRNG still win every ESL/Go4 like its peanuts for them. And this remains a fact. Simple.

Oh and they both got Thieves. Winning vs full cele/full bunker/full w/e you want.

Terrorsquad.2349:

I give up. As someone said above, it might be good to actually play pvp once in a while to learn stuff. Just saying stuff without actually be good and just from ‘watching’ games doesn’t make you right at all. If you don’t know pvp as good, you can’t possibly 100% understand whats going on in ESL/go4 Matches. Linking one or 2 vids doesn’t proof anything since RiP and oRNG still win every ESL/Go4 like its peanuts for them. And this remains a fact. Simple.

Oh and they both got Thieves. Winning vs full cele/full bunker/full w/e you want.

They win not because they have a Thief, they win because they are a good team.

Orange Log has a Thief and they’ve won, but their win is not because they have a Thief.

The way you’re arguing is that the Thief is the bread and butter of any team which is never the case.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Terrorsquad.2349:

I give up. As someone said above, it might be good to actually play pvp once in a while to learn stuff. Just saying stuff without actually be good and just from ‘watching’ games doesn’t make you right at all. If you don’t know pvp as good, you can’t possibly 100% understand whats going on in ESL/go4 Matches. Linking one or 2 vids doesn’t proof anything since RiP and oRNG still win every ESL/Go4 like its peanuts for them. And this remains a fact. Simple.

Oh and they both got Thieves. Winning vs full cele/full bunker/full w/e you want.

They win not because they have a Thief, they win because they are a good team.

Orange Log has a Thief and they’ve won, but their win is not because they have a Thief.

The way you’re arguing is that the Thief is the bread and butter of any team which is never the case.

Have you tried to play other zerkers when there is a competent thief in the enemy team? It absolute horror unless you have a thief aswell who can keep him busy.

Where do you think thief hardcounters mesmer comes from? And Mesmer has way more tools to deal with the constant harrass than a zerker ele for example or other zerker builds. Simply because you cannot kite him but he can easily kite you.

Top teams are at the top for a reason, they understand the game mode probably better than most in this thread myself included and they still all run a thief. I am pretty sure they have good reason to do so.

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Terrorsquad.2349:

I give up. As someone said above, it might be good to actually play pvp once in a while to learn stuff. Just saying stuff without actually be good and just from ‘watching’ games doesn’t make you right at all. If you don’t know pvp as good, you can’t possibly 100% understand whats going on in ESL/go4 Matches. Linking one or 2 vids doesn’t proof anything since RiP and oRNG still win every ESL/Go4 like its peanuts for them. And this remains a fact. Simple.

Oh and they both got Thieves. Winning vs full cele/full bunker/full w/e you want.

They win not because they have a Thief, they win because they are a good team.

Orange Log has a Thief and they’ve won, but their win is not because they have a Thief.

The way you’re arguing is that the Thief is the bread and butter of any team which is never the case.

Have you tried to play other zerkers when there is a competent thief in the enemy team? It absolute horror unless you have a thief aswell who can keep him busy.

Where do you think thief hardcounters mesmer comes from? And Mesmer has way more tools to deal with the constant harrass than a zerker ele for example or other zerker builds. Simply because you cannot kite him but he can easily kite you.

Top teams are at the top for a reason, they understand the game mode probably better than most in this thread myself included and they still all run a thief. I am pretty sure they have good reason to do so.

I understand the reason, however, if you look at oRNG’s line up, none of them main Thief…and that’s a very good indication of a good team.

Source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/events/world-tournament-series/

Blackjack—Multiple Professions
Denshee—Multiple Professions
Frae—Multiple Professions
R O M—Multiple Professions
Tage—Guardian

I don’t see Thief in there.

That’s my point. They won not because they have a Thief in their Multi Profession player, but because they are a good team.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Terrorsquad.2349:

I give up. As someone said above, it might be good to actually play pvp once in a while to learn stuff. Just saying stuff without actually be good and just from ‘watching’ games doesn’t make you right at all. If you don’t know pvp as good, you can’t possibly 100% understand whats going on in ESL/go4 Matches. Linking one or 2 vids doesn’t proof anything since RiP and oRNG still win every ESL/Go4 like its peanuts for them. And this remains a fact. Simple.

Oh and they both got Thieves. Winning vs full cele/full bunker/full w/e you want.

They win not because they have a Thief, they win because they are a good team.

Orange Log has a Thief and they’ve won, but their win is not because they have a Thief.

The way you’re arguing is that the Thief is the bread and butter of any team which is never the case.

Have you tried to play other zerkers when there is a competent thief in the enemy team? It absolute horror unless you have a thief aswell who can keep him busy.

Where do you think thief hardcounters mesmer comes from? And Mesmer has way more tools to deal with the constant harrass than a zerker ele for example or other zerker builds. Simply because you cannot kite him but he can easily kite you.

Top teams are at the top for a reason, they understand the game mode probably better than most in this thread myself included and they still all run a thief. I am pretty sure they have good reason to do so.

I understand the reason, however, if you look at oRNG’s line up, none of them main Thief…and that’s a very good indication of a good team.

Source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/events/world-tournament-series/

Blackjack—Multiple Professions
Denshee—Multiple Professions
Frae—Multiple Professions
R O M—Multiple Professions
Tage—Guardian

I don’t see Thief in there.

That’s my point. They won not because they have a Thief in their Multi Profession player, but because they are a good team.

I dont see an ele, engi, necro, warrior either.. So again, invalid arguement.
And Frae actually does MAIN thief, while Denshee actually mains Ele and ROM Warrior. You should know that if you know a bit about the scene.

Its the same saying 5g is multiclass because sometimes he logs on necro for daily /lol
PS: NA and CHina team Thief actually main thief too.. So ye.. Arguement is totally invalid here

Terrorsquad.2349:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Sizzle Hint.1820:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Terrorsquad.2349:

I give up. As someone said above, it might be good to actually play pvp once in a while to learn stuff. Just saying stuff without actually be good and just from ‘watching’ games doesn’t make you right at all. If you don’t know pvp as good, you can’t possibly 100% understand whats going on in ESL/go4 Matches. Linking one or 2 vids doesn’t proof anything since RiP and oRNG still win every ESL/Go4 like its peanuts for them. And this remains a fact. Simple.

Oh and they both got Thieves. Winning vs full cele/full bunker/full w/e you want.

They win not because they have a Thief, they win because they are a good team.

Orange Log has a Thief and they’ve won, but their win is not because they have a Thief.

The way you’re arguing is that the Thief is the bread and butter of any team which is never the case.

Have you tried to play other zerkers when there is a competent thief in the enemy team? It absolute horror unless you have a thief aswell who can keep him busy.

Where do you think thief hardcounters mesmer comes from? And Mesmer has way more tools to deal with the constant harrass than a zerker ele for example or other zerker builds. Simply because you cannot kite him but he can easily kite you.

Top teams are at the top for a reason, they understand the game mode probably better than most in this thread myself included and they still all run a thief. I am pretty sure they have good reason to do so.

I understand the reason, however, if you look at oRNG’s line up, none of them main Thief…and that’s a very good indication of a good team.

Source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/events/world-tournament-series/

Blackjack—Multiple Professions
Denshee—Multiple Professions
Frae—Multiple Professions
R O M—Multiple Professions
Tage—Guardian

I don’t see Thief in there.

That’s my point. They won not because they have a Thief in their Multi Profession player, but because they are a good team.

I dont see an ele, engi, necro, warrior either.. So again, invalid arguement.
And Frae actually does MAIN thief, while Denshee actually mains Ele and ROM Warrior. You should know that if you know a bit about the scene.

Its the same saying 5g is multiclass because sometimes he logs on necro for daily /lol
PS: NA and CHina team Thief actually main thief too.. So ye.. Arguement is totally invalid here

On the contrary, this does not invalidate my position;

“They win not because they have a Thief, they win because they are a good team”
“Orange Logo has a Thief and they’ve won, but their win is not because they have a Thief.”
“Effectively defending a node requires less for rotation.”
“Less rotation means more points = wins game.”

On the other hand your position of;

“Ye, that’s why the number 1 teams of the world have thieves, right..?”

….is in fact invalid because having players that can play multiple professions means they don’t see Thief as a necessary profession. They will pick whatever profession can beat the other team depending on their strategy.

Look at The Abjured, they have dedicated one player to play one profession (Magic Toker playing a Thief)…they lost because they have no flexibility. Magic Toker did exactly everything you have posted on your original post, but it didn’t work. Why? Because your perception of Thief is wrong which makes your argument invalid. The same wrong perception that the Pros shares.

However, because oRNG is such a good team that they managed to make a huge comeback and a sweep on the next match…while their Thief was bored the whole time.

Its not as complicated that a thieves role and value should need 2 pages of text..

Thieves fill the role of roaming support more or less.
They +1 some fights
They depac/cap nodes
They rarely do, but are capable of 1v1
They add stealth, poison and blinds, sometimes burst
They are fast. Really fast

They depend on others just as much as anyone, however they cant fill the brawler role,
which is meta. Spike damage vs brawlers is not as efficient, but adds up when assisting a friendly brawler that is brawling with another brawler too long. They are also efficient with being fast enough to support another objective before its too late.

A Brawler does his best fending off 2 or more players for as long as possible.
Fending off 2 brawlers is easier than 1 brawler+1 thief.

Therefor a brawler easier fills more roles because people are rotating and you will encounter more than 1 player at a time most of the times.

If you ever watched one of those wrestling shows on television (dont mind them being rigged), then you can pretty much compare the combatants to the brawlers, and the thief to the allied observer throwing in a chair to his beloved combatant, and then quickly moving on to the other cage to assist another ally. The assist can go either way, the chair can break, the opposing combatant can use it to his advantage.
But with the right timing and skill it CAN determine the outcome for to the better.

Noha.3749:

Its not as complicated that a thieves role and value should need 2 pages of text..

Thieves fill the role of roaming support more or less.
They +1 some fights
They depac/cap nodes
They rarely do, but are capable of 1v1
They add stealth, poison and blinds, sometimes burst
They are fast. Really fast

They depend on others just as much as anyone, however they cant fill the brawler role,
which is meta. Spike damage vs brawlers is not as efficient, but adds up when assisting a friendly brawler that is brawling with another brawler too long. They are also efficient with being fast enough to support another objective before its too late.

A Brawler does his best fending off 2 or more players for as long as possible.
Fending off 2 brawlers is easier than 1 brawler+1 thief.

Therefor a brawler easier fills more roles because people are rotating and you will encounter more than 1 player at a time most of the times.

If you ever watched one of those wrestling shows on television (dont mind them being rigged), then you can pretty much compare the combatants to the brawlers, and the thief to the allied observer throwing in a chair to his beloved combatant, and then quickly moving on to the other cage to assist another ally. The assist can go either way, the chair can break, the opposing combatant can use it to his advantage.
But with the right timing and skill it CAN determine the outcome for to the better.

Some players want thief to be more than “Sometimes effective brawler support and contester of unguarded points”, and I don’t think that’s ridiculous.

@evilapprentice.6379
No, its not rediculous at all.
Thieves does however fill an important role in situational line-ups that no one can compete with.

But yes, situational at best is not enough, although i do believe we are the cause of this cele/sentinel meta.

Noha.3749:

But yes, situational at best is not enough, although i do believe we are the cause of this cele/sentinel meta.

Oh I believe it. A lot of nerfs to the Thief and buffs to other professions are made to create the current meta. ArenaNet doesn’t want the Thief to do what it does best — burst damage — because according to them and many other players, it’s unfair. There should be a counter play. So the Thief is reduced to stand in the sideline throwing chairs into the ring — when they should be jumping off the rope landing with their elbow to take some one out.

Noha.3749:

@evilapprentice.6379
No, its not rediculous at all.
Thieves does however fill an important role in situational line-ups that no one can compete with.

But yes, situational at best is not enough, although i do believe we are the cause of this cele/sentinel meta.

I agree with you on this one, due the mobility it has and its unique suppor in burst and stealth (for downed/push).

I still play Thief mostly, it still feels optimal if you don’t rush in and think