Guild Wars 2

A lot of us are still curious and concerned about the upcoming changes to Infiltrators Return (IR).

Many of the top players have laid out there arguments as to why this change seems like it will remove S/D as a TPvP viable choice, leaving thieves with a single option (D/P). I’ll link a few of their arguments below, but this doesn’t really represent how many people have explained why they believe this change is a bad choice.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/page/8#post3168211

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Dec-10th-thief-changes/page/8#post3168347

Can we have a discussion about how you see S/D remaining viable despite their arguments?

Can we have an update about how testing has gone? I’ve seen other classes receive reassurances about how testing to their changes has revealed that the specs will still work, and I’d love to hear how your internal testers are doing with S/D in the upcoming meta.

Thank you.

Glad you posted this. Have to agree completely with Jumper when he says “I don’t know what you plan to gain by destroying S/D and completely burying the already dead S/P, but these sets need buffs, not nerfs.”

So the goal of the patch is to force thieves to run D/D or D/P? Makes no sense.

Also, I think it’s hilarious one of the balance team stated that “the change to initiative regain baseline is a huge buff to ALL thief builds”. Haha, do they even play the class? It most definitely won’t be “a huge buff” for S/P (an already sub-par set) due to opportunist, kleptomaniac, and signet changes.

I really don’t think ANet’s internal testers can play at the same level as top-tier competitive teams do in the external meta.

Traditionally, testers are hired based on their professional skills in terms of testing experience, efficiency, and attention to detail, and not solely on their GW2 gameplay ability. Statistically speaking, the number of people who possess both the necessary professional skills as well as the ability to play GW2 at a high level will be relatively few. And to be honest it’s not reasonable to replace testers simply because they’re not top tier players when they can perform their real work flawlessly.

This gap in skill and experience level between internal and external teams can be evident from the last few patches where several changes have had detrimental effects to the competitive meta that ANet was not able to foresee. The fact that passive builds like Healing Signet Warrior, Spirit Ranger, etc have been favored in balance changes over builds with a high skill ceiling is likely also a direct effect of this gap. This gap will only widen, and its effect amplified, as time goes on, because the large majority of competitve players have much more time to play and master the game than internal testers do.

Bottom line is: ANet needs to start consulting top competitive teams and players when making balance changes, and give them access to playable preview builds to get their feedback before release. This is standard practice in game development for ESport worthy games, and it’s about time ANet started as well.

@KAON true. but then personal bias comes in. fine line to walk but i do agree

Jumper says it best.

I suspect they looked at Inf Return and noted that it’s the only weapon skill in the game that breaks stun. That anomaly is being corrected.

I think they may not have fully considered how sword builds will fare without it, however. The stunbreak may have been an error, but it is the one shining advantage that build has. Well, that and the fact that it’s not P/P

Oghier.7419:

I suspect they looked at Inf Return and noted that it’s the only weapon skill in the game that breaks stun. That anomaly is being corrected.

I think they may not have fully considered how sword builds will fare without it, however. The stunbreak may have been an error, but it is the one shining advantage that build has. Well, that and the fact that it’s not P/P

It does not break stun, so I’m not sure exactly what you’re getting at. Did you mean it can be used while stunned? Because there’s a number of skills that can do that.

You’ll also note mesmer Staff 2 (Phase retreat) works in the exact same manner (an escape you can use while stunned that doesn’t break the stun). If you trait for staff, it’s usable nearly as often as IR is. It’s also functionally superior to IR in some cases (no need to set it up with a skill like IS, no circle to close to which can shut the skill down entirely).

Jumper and Mrbig pointed out the issue fairly well – IR was what made Sword MH playable – Not strong, playable. Without it, the spec will be scrapped. If this is part of a plan to rehaul sword into a well built weaponset with 5 skills worth using, bravo – but it’s silly to implement the change that renders it useless without any of the other changes to keep it as a functioning, competitive weaponset. Especially when you consider thief has he narrowest weapon set choices in the game already (Ele’s get attunements, Engi’s kits), AND only 2 of them are TPvP viable atm, soon to be 1.

Hype.8032:

Jumper says it best.

I agree, and would love to hear Anets take on the situation. I was patient on the 5th, because we still had over a month to have a back and forth concerning this change.

10 days later, and we still haven’t heard a thing about it, and I’m starting to get worried, hence the post.

Ive lost the reason to play the game after reading incoming changes.. But i will w8 till 10th Dec and decide;) Till then im on break. Cheers!

vrilek.4038:

Ive lost the reason to play the game after reading incoming changes.. But i will w8 till 10th Dec and decide;) Till then im on break. Cheers!

Yeah, I’ve kind of lost the desire to play as well. I tried D/P for about an hour, decided it wasn’t for me, and just kind of stopped playing.

D/D still works! And, if you have a taste for condition builds (and there are a lot of reasons not to), P/D isn’t getting nerfed. In fact, those two specs are, on balance, buffed a bit.

I really wanted to like S/D. At least this change will release me from any temptation to build a Bolt, the only thiefly Legendary I like

Oghier.7419:

D/D still works! And, if you have a taste for condition builds (and there are a lot of reasons not to), P/D isn’t getting nerfed. In fact, those two specs are, on balance, buffed a bit.

I really wanted to like S/D. At least this change will release me from any temptation to build a Bolt, the only thiefly Legendary I like

P/D isn’t TPvP viable. Neither is D/D, really – it’s not a weaponset that can compete with the builds that other classes are going to be bringing post dec 10th patch.

There’s alot of stuff that works in hot join that won’t hold up in a competitive environment with competent players. Right now thats S/D and D/P (both with Sbow offhand, because it’s a requirement). Post dec 10th, most thieves argue it’ll just be D/P, and Anet hasn’t offered us any reasoning to counter those arguments.