Guild Wars 2

Why is heartseeker a gap closer when thieves already have so many + decent amount of speed boosts?
This wouldn’t be such a problem if it worked like other classes, but it’s spammable.
Legit question, no troll

Because almost every skill in the game has at least 2 uses. Heartseeker is an execute, a leap finisher and a combat movement skill. Thieves are by design the most mobile profession in the game (even though Ele’s are right up there).

It is extremely easy to dodge btw. Don’t bother dodging it if you are >50% health. If you root a thief who is spamming it they will likely blow all their init in one spot.

probably because it does crap damage when an opponent is above 50% hp and it isn’t very accurate. you can side step it at it’s max range, and when the thief is crippled/chilled it gets next to no distance on it. part of the problem is that it can also be spammed after mug/back stab. it is worth mentioning that heart seeker spam is probably in the top 3 of inefficient ways for a thief to fight.

also, with a main hand dagger thieves usually wont have a sword in the second weapon slot so that gap closer is out. the shortbow’s costs 6 initiative so it can’t always be used to close gaps/escape. that leaves shadow step with a 60 second CD, infiltrator’s signet with 30 seconds, and scorpion wire at 30 seconds for utilities, and you will usually on see shadow step on a thief’s bar. so a 60 second stun break for a closer, and steal as a closer on a 45 second CD that can be reduced by trait points into trickery, but traiting more than 10 into trickery is usually only done by condition builds. if dagger is your main hand, the only real offhand closer you get is with pistol, as DB is easily avoidable, and prone to accidents. so for D/D burst builds, that often open with steal, and of which many don’t use shadow step, heart seeker is the only gap closer without a large CD, and if they spam it, they are going to burn out all their initiative on an easy to counter ability.

There is nothing wrong with heartseeker. It does exactly what it should do. Closes gaps and kills people.

I’d say nerf HS if you could kill someone from 100% by spamming it, but you can’t kill anything except maybe a glass cannon thief with it. If you are a thief and you get kitten in a 1v1 by HS spamming thief you are bad.

But why should it close gaps? What’s the justification behind it. Let my guardian leap 4x too

Gungnir Grimm.7123:

also, with a main hand dagger thieves usually wont have a sword in the second weapon slot so that gap closer is out. the shortbow’s costs 6 initiative so it can’t always be used to close gaps/escape.

I’m desperately trying to sift for rationality in your logic… So because shortbow’s initiative cost is too high and equipping S/X on your other set would be less intuitive, we give heartseeker a 450 range leap finisher that has potential to do a lot of damage and outclasses the previous two in versatility and mobility?

S/X has IS, which don’t get me wrong is an amazing ability, but it only has 150 more range and a fleeting 1s immobilize, can only be used for gaining distance with a target, and you have to wait 12 seconds before you use it again to close the gap or else you teleport backwards. (I further stress that I love everything about IS, as it works for what my spec calls for, but am using this as an example as it elicits everything a D/X thief wishes to avoid.)

SB has IA, which does no damage, is ground target only, and at it’s farthest can only take you a scant farther distance than HS can on a full initiative bar.

Heartseeker range needs nerfed (300 max). Heartseeker needs to have a target to engage the leap (like IS needs one) so you can’t skip away like a fairy attacking the wind. This really needs to be addressed.

Wanna.4721:

But why should it close gaps? What’s the justification behind it. Let my guardian leap 4x too

That was a very noobish reply.

Laika.8795:

Heartseeker range needs nerfed (300 max). Heartseeker needs to have a target to engage the leap (like IS needs one) so you can’t skip away like a fairy attacking the wind. This really needs to be addressed.

warrior GS has two closers that can be used without a target for mobility, elementalist have ride the lightning, there are plenty of gap closers that have no need for a target and are used for mobility as well. yeah, heart seeker does more damage, but only when your opponent has less than half health, and it is so easy to dodge/counter. HS spam is kind of like hundred blades, it gets a lot of hate for its high damage potential, while how easy it is to counter is completely overlooked. when it is spammed, if you dodge and immobilize,chill, or cripple they will use all their initiative in one spot hitting air.

also, anet has changed abilities for consistency in the past so if you want heart seeker to require a target, than all gap closers that can currently be used for mobility would probably have to undergo the same change as well.

swinsk.6410:

Wanna.4721:

But why should it close gaps? What’s the justification behind it. Let my guardian leap 4x too

That was a very noobish reply.

This post was so much better than mine. Thanks for answering my question… not.
The problem isn’t the skill per say, it’s the fact it can be spammed to close gaps so easily.
I love all the comments about crip/imm/chill. Usually the skills that trigger any of these conds have semi long cds (approx 15s give or take across most classes), so while it’s on cd hs can be used freely.
And using said conditions on any other class will aslo screw over their gap closer. But they can’t recast once the condi is off. They have to wait till it’s back up and get kited while waiting.

I’m just trying to find the logic behind an ability to does decent damage AND closes gaps. As it has been said it has a 450 range. That’s pretty big.
Imo the problem lies with the thief’s initiative mechanic, allowing some skills to be used more than once. If it had a cd the range could be justified. Except it hasn’t.

Still want to hear the reasoning behind it.

(also consider stealth is a gap closer [even more so if traited])

Gungnir Grimm.7123:

Laika.8795:

Heartseeker range needs nerfed (300 max). Heartseeker needs to have a target to engage the leap (like IS needs one) so you can’t skip away like a fairy attacking the wind. This really needs to be addressed.

warrior GS has two closers that can be used without a target for mobility, elementalist have ride the lightning, there are plenty of gap closers that have no need for a target and are used for mobility as well. yeah, heart seeker does more damage, but only when your opponent has less than half health, and it is so easy to dodge/counter. HS spam is kind of like hundred blades, it gets a lot of hate for its high damage potential, while how easy it is to counter is completely overlooked. when it is spammed, if you dodge and immobilize,chill, or cripple they will use all their initiative in one spot hitting air.

also, anet has changed abilities for consistency in the past so if you want heart seeker to require a target, than all gap closers that can currently be used for mobility would probably have to undergo the same change as well.

Thing is you’re talking about the other classes skills in terms of mobility, not gap closing. RTL is used to cover ground fast, same for GS warrior skills. Thieves don’t use HS to move faster… it’s when you try to kite them, that they start using it.
And I’m trying not to bring up it’s damage potential, just the gap closing part. Why isn’t working like death blossom?

Wanna.4721:

Thing is you’re talking about the other classes skills in terms of mobility, not gap closing. RTL is used to cover ground fast, same for GS warrior skills. Thieves don’t use HS to move faster… it’s when you try to kite them, that they start using it.
And I’m trying not to bring up it’s damage potential, just the gap closing part. Why isn’t working like death blossom?

I see it used for mobility quite often, haste+HS can cover ground. as for gap closing, there are better options, but honestly I wouldn’t mind its initiative cost being raised to 4. it would help stop spamming, and wouldn’t overly affect those who use it properly/efficiently. I honestly prefer dancing dagger over HS anyway. harder to avoid, bounces, and with my speed it gets me in range with the bonus of not having to deal with accidentally queuing the same ability twice.

Just tested it, sb using infiltrator’s is slightly faster than hs. And so very few people would burn their haste just to move faster.
And for the 10th time, I’m talking about the skill in terms of gap closing.

You’re asking the wrong people, we’re not the developers.

It might be aesthetics, in combination with the increased damage against low health targets it looks like a merciless finishing move against foes trying to avoid death by running away from the thief, or dodging out of range and then running away.

It’s also just a gap-closer, thieves don’t have all that many gap-closers on weapons. Melee chars tend to have – and need(?) – gap-closers. By giving melee characters gap-closers you can lower the gap in damage between ranged and melee and make them easier to balance.

Gungnir Grimm.7123:

warrior GS has two closers that can be used without a target for mobility, elementalist have ride the lightning, there are plenty of gap closers that have no need for a target and are used for mobility as well.

And which of them can be used repeatedly, up to 2250 range on a full bar of initiative, and cause full damage if/when their heatseeking pathing connects them?

Gungnir Grimm.7123:

also, anet has changed abilities for consistency in the past so if you want heart seeker to require a target, than all gap closers that can currently be used for mobility would probably have to undergo the same change as well.

Ok, so why doesn’t my Infiltrator’s Strike port me 600 range without a target instead of just putting a return marker under my feet? That must be the exception to the rule that would require a massive overhaul to the “consistency” ANet has provided. Which leads me to the old addage: What’s good for the goose is good for the goose who’s skillcap is miles below the other goose’s (I’m paraphrasing, of course.)

Eviscerate is a gap closer that does insane damage at all health levels.

Yea Thieves have the initiative system as part of their unique profession flavor. Get over it and learn to play against it. I don’t complain about ele’s having 16 different weapon based cool-downs to non stop scroll through (2 extra weapon swaps basically) because it’s class defining and you learn to play against it.

Stiv.1820:

Eviscerate is a gap closer that does insane damage at all health levels.

Yea Thieves have the initiative system as part of their unique profession flavor. Get over it and learn to play against it. I don’t complain about ele’s having 16 different weapon based cool-downs to non stop scroll through (2 extra weapon swaps basically) because it’s class defining and you learn to play against it.

Eviscerate is 300 range with a 10 second cooldown, Heartseeker is 450 range with no cooldown and can be spammed 3-4 times after a massive burst combo. Range needs to be brought down, unequivocally.

I am a thief, and I’m fine with initiative. No one, however, will dare touch on the no target leap for HS vs the target required port for IS. If it’s “part of the gap closing system” then why is my skill the only one that needs a target to get you somewhere.

If you want to close the gap, you should have to make some concessions. D/X thieves seem to be unwilling, however, because they know that would raise their skillcap far beyond what they’re willing to bear.

Oops, double post. Need more sleep, again…

Yea every skill is different it’s still a gap closer, 150 less units but does full AOE damage no matter what level of health and is always usable every 10 seconds at the cost of only the animation. Thief does single target damage and each point of initiative has an opportunity cost of whatever else you may want to do with imitative aside from it’s animation. Thieves have resource management, everyone else has cool-downs.

Laika.8795:

Eviscerate is 300 range with a 10 second cooldown, Heartseeker is 450 range with no cooldown and can be spammed 3-4 times after a massive burst combo. Range needs to be brought down, unequivocally.

You’re hijacking the thread, which was about the reason to have a gap-closer.

Heartseeker isn’t free, it takes time to regenerate the initiative used, and as initiative is a limited resource shared between all weapon skills on both swaps it’s effectively on a (delayed) cooldown shared with all other weapon skills. As thief you should know better.

If you want to close the gap, you should have to make some concessions.

Needing a target would hardly make a difference. Characters are ‘hurt’ by targeted Heartseekers more then by untargeted ones. Though it’d be a break from routine to read complaints from people about Heartseeker not hitting them …

I like the ability and play backstab thief. I use it about 10% of the time. Its not worth it when i have much better abilities to use. If it got toned down by 10% damage, i wouldnt even notice since its intended as a very last finisher move or to do nice damage to down’d targets. Anything more and it looses its use. If you see a thief about to use it you can immoblize, knockback, dodge, chill, blind, aegis, or if above 50% health, laugh. Yes it can be annoying at times when against a thief and the moment i get below 50% health he spams 4 heartseekers while my cooldowns are up. But then i remember he has got me below 50% health without using his best abilites to save up for this burst, and its my fault for using up my cooldowns to early in a fight.

If a thief comes and helps a 2v1, and just smashes you with it, its a 2v1 against a burst class, what do you expect? Any burst spec joining a 1v1 midfight can do the same, thief is just very noticeable.

Check the picture out. While playing a very glass cannon build (medium vitality) a thief hits me 4 times with haste before i can react. Since i had conditions on he had an extra 10% attack, and i am guessing he was running scholar and had another 10% for being on full health. While i do not know his build, if a warrior even waved at him he would go into the downstate since he is also glass cannon. Just because thieves have a move you don’t like doesnt mean we dont get attacked by it as well. And we have some of the lowest of everything defence wise ingame.